quote:Originally posted by Icarus: I had a parent once say to me, when her son was painting an actively dishonest portrayal of what went on in my classroom (actively as in it wasn't about interpretation, but he was claiming I said and did things that I never said and did), "Look, I know my child is not perfect. He has his version, you have your version, and I'm sure the truth is somewhere in the middle." Um, no. This Mean Value of Truth Theorem is asinine on the face of it.
This is a hard thing to justify saying though, because we do all take things in different ways. I remember once thinking a teacher called me stupid. She never really did, I was working on a project and goofed it up and she took it from me and said here let me show you the right way to do this...well in my mind that was saying I was stupid. I took it that way, but then I tend to always go to the worst extremes of things when they happen. I always take that into effect when dealing with a situation in the classroom. I know it can be hard when a student takes it to extremes but in those situations sometimes you have to be the person to take the high ground.
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posted
We perceive things differently, sure. And sometimes that statement is accurate. But to use it as a general guiding principal is based on several faulty assumptions. In this case, there's the assumption that a responsible teacher and an eleven-year-old with a history of getting in trouble with all his teachers have equal motivation to lie.
Sometimes one person is just lying. Sometimes, in a dispute, one person is just right and one is just wrong. Believing the truth is always in the middle of any two extremes seems like taking moral relativism to an absurd point.
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quote:Originally posted by Icarus: Scott, if I were your child's teacher, and we ended up in a "my word against yours" situation, like say I said I watched your child walk into the lunch line, grab a food item, and quickly walk back out, bypassing the line for the cash register, and your child said it never happened, would your faith in your child extend to the point of believing I must be lying or mistaken when I say very plainly that I saw this happen and that there were no mitigating or obfuscating circumstances?
I think I need to know to what extremes trusting your children goes before I can determine how I feel about your post.
It depends on how I feel about you as a teacher, doesn't it?
Are you that teacher from 'Lost Boys?' Or are you Mr. Holland? Or are you Icarus, who I virtually trust is a good teacher, and who has shown himself to be a pretty sterling guy online?
If it's you, then I suppose I take your word over my child's.
I believe in being an involved parent, though, so I try to get to know the teachers who are responsible for my children. We have had an experience where we did not feel the teacher was fit to be a teacher, and in that case, we complained to the school, and removed our child from that environment.
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I don't think I have a problem with what you're saying then. I think it just lends itself to reading more into it than you've actually said.
I'm not sure we're the same people when we're in different contexts, though. I think some parents know their children well in the context of home, when there are no peers and there is no peer pressure, and don't really know the people their kids become when they are surrounded by a hundred of their peers. But I think these parents I'm thinking of have to be a bit willfully ignorant. Like I can see trusting a child who has never, to your knowledge, abused your trust. But if your child keeps having run-in after run-in, where the only explanation that doesn't involve distrusting the child is that dozens of teachers are dishonest and on some sort of vendetta, that's where one reaches the point of being absurdly credulous. At some point it's necessary to ask, "Why do people keep saying this about you?" One bizarrely dishonest adult is not, unfortunately, so unlikely as to be unbelievable. Legions of them are.
It doesn't sound to me like you're like that--that credulous, I mean. Believe it or not, though, there really are people out there who are. I think the disagreement you're getting here is that people read your words and it almost sounds like you're saying you'd believe your kid in all circumstances. And that's making those of us who are or were teachers twitch. Posts: 13680 | Registered: Mar 2002
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quote:It doesn't sound to me like you're like that--that credulous, I mean. Believe it or not, though, there really are people out there who are. I think the disagreement you're getting here is that people read your words and it almost sounds like you're saying you'd believe your kid in all circumstances. And that's making those of us who are or were teachers twitch.
Aha.
Even though I said:
quote:This doesn't mean you blindly trust your kids. It means that you know them well enough that you can discern when they're telling the truth, and when they aren't. Children are bound to stretch your trust; some may even break it.
And
quote:Will my teenager lie to me? Probably, and I'll be hurt.
quote:Originally posted by Icarus: We perceive things differently, sure. And sometimes that statement is accurate. But to use it as a general guiding principal is based on several faulty assumptions. In this case, there's the assumption that a responsible teacher and an eleven-year-old with a history of getting in trouble with all his teachers have equal motivation to lie.
Sometimes one person is just lying. Sometimes, in a dispute, one person is just right and one is just wrong. Believing the truth is always in the middle of any two extremes seems like taking moral relativism to an absurd point.
I think even in a situation where someone is clearly lying, you must agree that your perception is not necessarly 100% accurate to how it occured. I don't mean to argue but like I said I know I am that person who sees things as black or white..not gray! I have to take into account the situation and how I percieve it. I often will ask others their intake of the situation also, even my students who observed the situation. I have little forms that they can fill out when a occurance happens in my classroom. Maybe I get that from having worked in Special Education for so many years where everyone seems to percieve things differently.
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quote:Originally posted by Icarus: I think the disagreement you're getting here is that people read your words and it almost sounds like you're saying you'd believe your kid in all circumstances. And that's making those of us who are or were teachers twitch.
Not so much in my case. For me, it's the notion that he will absolutely be able to tell when his teens are lying. And the implication that anyone who cannot with their teens doesn't know them well enough or have a good enough relationship with them.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Icarus: I think the disagreement you're getting here is that people read your words and it almost sounds like you're saying you'd believe your kid in all circumstances. And that's making those of us who are or were teachers twitch.
Not so much in my case. For me, it's the notion that he will absolutely be able to tell when his teens are lying. And the implication that anyone who cannot with their teens doesn't know them well enough or have a good enough relationship with them.
Ahem:
quote:Originally posted by Scott R:
quote:How would you know, if you generally trust them as long as you don't "discern" a lie?
Generally, I can tell when my kids are lying.
I don't know if this will carry over into when they become teenagers. I *do* know it's an ideal that I need to shoot for.
quote:[Scott R implied] that anyone who cannot with their teens doesn't know them well enough or have a good enough relationship with them.
I didn't say this, either. I said that it would be sad if a teacher knew a child better than a parent did.
Here:
quote:Originally posted by Scott R:
quote:I don't like that you don't trust the administrators. They deal with your son tons more than you do on any given week and probaby know him better.
If this is true (and there's very little chance Occasional knows what he's talking about) it is immensely sad.
And here I explain what I mean:
quote:Originally posted by Scott R: This is what I object to:
quote:[School officials] deal with your son tons more than you do on any given week
Parents should interact with their children TONS more than teachers interact with their students.
Just. Sad. Do I need to elaborate on why a parent should know their child better than a teacher?
Now Belle softened Occasional's criticism with some qualifications; even still. I think it inherent in parenthood to know your child better than anyone. The better to know when he's trying to snow you, at the very least.
Maybe you're reading some sort of weird parallel universe Scott R.
I want his address so I can beat the crap out of him.
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quote: Teenagers should be treated as if you trust them, but you should never trust them. Even the good kids.
Wow. I missed this somehow.
No. No. No.
I cannot disagree enough. It's vital to the parent-child relationship that both parties can trust one another. I'd even go so far as to say that the health of the relationship-- its strength, its depth, its effectiveness-- is directly related to the trust shown and felt by those involved.
This doesn't mean you blindly trust your kids. It means that you know them well enough that you can discern when they're telling the truth, and when they aren't. Children are bound to stretch your trust; some may even break it. An adult, though, is someone who can take steps to mend the break, repair the errant behavior (because while YOUR trust is broken, the child's faith in you should never be misplaced), and strengthen the relationship.
posted
Ok. I would point you to the italicized part, but you can read it as well as I. Clearly what you think you are saying and what I think you are saying are not the same.
Darn lack of telepathy.
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posted
I'm sorry you're miffed, Scott. I'm actually trying to be agreeable.
It may be that you've got elements in your post that don't contradict each other, but that mitigate each other. And maybe the first part, the "my relationship with my kids is based on trust" part, is phrased strongly enough that many of us just aren't catching the places where you mitigate that, the first time through. That's why, even though I thought I was getting you, I felt the need to create a specific scenario, because it was not absolutely clear to me how you would react.
I think the thing is that a lot of parents feel they know when their kids are lying. So "I would know if my kids were lying" can sound a lot like "I believe everything my kids say."
In fact, a number of parents seem to make a point of being credulous as a way of sucking up to their own kids. "I got your back, junior." In my experience, step-parents are sometimes particularly bad about this. In fact, the incident that led to a parent threatening to beat me up was agitated by a step-mother who was intent on proving how much she trusted her step-daughter.
quote:Originally posted by rivka: Ok. I would point you to the italicized part, but you can read it as well as I. Clearly what you think you are saying and what I think you are saying are not the same.
Darn lack of telepathy.
Actually, now that I look at it again, I see your point, rivka.
I think parents SHOULD strive to know their children well enough to know when they're telling a lie. I'm never going to apologize for that. But being snowed by your teen doesn't mean you're a bad parent, necessarily.
Some parents can be there every second for their child; they can be trying their best, and the kid just turns out rotten for whatever reason.
Far be it from me to even imply that they are bad parents based on that information alone.
In general, my intent is stick to my ideal-- that I should have such a close relationship to my children that 1) they don't ever feel the need to lie to me, 2) I'm clued in enough to their personalities and emotions I know when they ARE lying to me, and 3) they're are confident enough in my love that they can admit lying to me.
I don't expect that either of us (the children or me) will be perfect. The idea is to be trying to meet the ideal.
Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999
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quote:Originally posted by Scott R: I think parents SHOULD strive to know their children well enough to know when they're telling a lie.
And I think you are seriously underestimating the ability of teenagers to lie -- fluently, charmingly, and incredibly convincingly. I say that not only as the parent of a teen and pre-teen (neither of whom is all that good at lying to me, but both have their moments) and the former teacher of hundreds of teens, many of whom were amazingly gifted in that regard. Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
Ehh they are 3 types of teens good, bad and Ts (or average whatever you wanna call it) Goods lie but don't do bad stuff. Bads do bad stuff and lie. Ts don't lie and do some bad things.
From what I've expierienced the better liars are goods. Goods are also the easiest to trick into doing bad stuff and trick into taking the blame. Bads are sometimes horrible at lying but very good at not getting caught or worming others into taking the blame. Ts, well we certainly are horrible at lying and hiding what we do, but we somehow we get out of it (or are we just good at not getting severe punishment?).
Just my onion (yes a tribute to clandestineguitarplayer the first posts I ever saw)
posted
Maybe I lost my credibility to say something on this subject but I’ll try anyhow
1. Teens have brains under construction. I learned that there have been studies that point out that Teens don’t have the brains to make long-term judgments. Therefore they still need parents to do this. So even If I trust my teens, I do want to help them with these long term decisions , braking them up in smaller parts. This is where checking homework etc. comes in.
2. I think kids have less reason to lie if parents are not judgemental while they are judging. I think one of the reasons that kids lie is to live up to the sometimes hard moral standards of their parents.
* checking my use of English words here: * With judgemental I mean thinking: “You are a bad person to do these things”. With judging I mean: “You must not do these things” sec. The difference is the moral opinion that is being forced upon someone.
(On the whole I succeed at not being judgemental. This is why I was so shocked to find out how easily I screwed up on this matter. I was being judgemental about school, and in fact, also about the things that happened there, and about what kind of kid my son is. Most of the time I am in the “non-judgemental mode” but here I slipped. It took me some time to snap out of my “judgemental-mode”. Used all your help to do it, so again thanks. I have learned from this. I hope it will help me being a better parent. It has helped me being less judgemental about being judgemental)
I think that one of the things Scott means is that he tries to be not judgemental And so not giving his kids reason to lie. I actually think he will succeed in that.
An other reason to lie comes with the short-term brain. Kids want something, they don’t see the long term effects. They only notice that their parents have a habit to restrict them (for no good reason to them). So a little lying helps to keep the parents from too much unwanted intervention. I think that these lies are the harder to prevent. It is in the nature of kids to try things out for themselves.
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quote:Originally posted by bootjes: Maybe I lost my credibility to say something on this subject . . .
I don't know why you would think that; I hope that it's not because of anything I've said. I've tried to make it clear that I was not addressing the specifics of what your son did, or your parenting, but just going off on a related tangent, in particular to the notion that parents know their kids well enough to know when their kids are lying.
I do disagree with your original position on the letter, but only insofar as I understand the situation at all. And that disagreement certainly doesn't mean you've "lost credibility."
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posted
You most definitely have not lost credibility, you are a parent wondering if he has done the right thing - heck, the very fact that you wonder says you are a better parent than some, who believe both they and their kids can do no wrong! (Note - I am thinking here of some very irrational parents I know and their very spoiled kids - none of whom visit Hatrack so please no one assume I'm talking about anyone on this thread!)
None of us are perfect and all of us make mistakes. One thing a friend told me and that I have used with my teenage daughter is to admit both to myself and to her that this is new territory. My daughter has never been a fifteen year old before. I have never been the parent of her at fifteen before. It's new territory for all of us, and we're all learning. We'll make mistakes, but we'll muddle through.
I think it's very important for kids to know that you don't think you're perfect.
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