quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen: ... but I intend for my children to call people by respectful titles as well.)
To be clear -- I would prefer respectful titles be used as well. (For everyone, actually, not merely MDs or PhDs.) Just not this particular title, other than in certain circumstances. I think there are others just as respectful and more appropriate.
But, again, of course we may agree to disagree.
'Tis what makes the world go 'round. *smile
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posted
Oh, I'm glad. I've just been startled that some of my acquaintances, close to my age, from church and the community, do NOT have their children call people "Mr." or "Ms." (or at church "Brother" or "Sister") or relatives "Aunt" or "Uncle", at all, and think it's quaint and archaic when they hear my three-year-old do it. Thinking back, I think I was archaic even for my generation (at least where I was growing up-- my husband, who grew up in TX, said that was normal among his peers, but I think it was fairly abnormal among mine here in L.A.)
As for the doctor (and I guess reverend) thing, it's always been a show of respect for the education and the work more than the office/title itself. I think if someone did not actually work in the field they had a doctorate in, I would be more comfortable not addressing them as "doctor".
I am quite content to agree to disagree with you on this and of course bear you no ill-will, and when my kids meet you will remember to have them call you "Ms.", not "Dr.", since you have requested such. Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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quote:I have to say that whilst working various jobs as a lowly customer service peon I've encountered a fair amount of doctors (medical and others) who were very insistant on having the "Dr." included on any form of communication sent to them. Sometimes their sole reason for contacting us was to demand that we include "Dr." before their name on their phone bills.
Well, that's no more polite than intentionally calling a doctor who has not asked to not be called such "Mr." in the first place.
I'm having a hard time parsing that sentence. It's probably just me, and I'm sorry, but I don't get what you're saying here.
May or may not have anything to do with what KQ said, but I should clarify that this was usually not a case of people asking us to change Mr. to Dr. - the default state for the invoices would be Firstname Lastname, with no Mr/Mrs/Ms/Dr/Rev etc unless somebody specifically requested it be added. My examples of 1) calling solely to add the Dr. to their bill and 2) saying "I didn't go to med school to be called Mr." are completely separate cases.
I get it if it's a formal letter or the way that you're being announced upon arrival to the ball, but I really don't get it if it's a phone bill nobody sees but you.
posted
I was saying that they were being very rude to do that.
Sorry it was hard to parse, I was arguing with a three-year-old on another matter while I was writing that post. Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen: I am quite content to agree to disagree with you on this and of course bear you no ill-will, and when my kids meet you will remember to have them call you "Ms.", not "Dr.", since you have requested such.
I cannot imagine a more delightful and admirable woman to have a difference of opinion with. I am sure -- beyond doubt -- that I would be captivated by your children as well.
[Edit!:] I was unable to call my university professors by their first names, even when requested not to use the title. At that point, I just avoided using a name of address. My mentor and very good friend now of 19 years is finally -- finally! -- someone I can call by his first name, but he is the only one. And I have slept in his bed, too. (Housesitting and dogsitting, nothing untoward, but a sort of intimacy of a friendship nonetheless.)
My feelings about this have changed through the years. In part I think this is due to my training years, a time in which most of the physicians I worked with were put off by formality amongst ourselves (I do not know how many of them extended this outside the profession, but I know several did, and I suspect it of many others.) So you could say that I was retrained into a new paradigm, at least for my usage in that circumstance.
I also admit to a huge chip of reverse snobbery. Pride for me is in not being called "Dr." (other than in the medical setting), and this reflects more than just an ideological academic stance -- it is about power, and having been poor, and wanting to be respected but fearing that craving for it, and so on. In other words, it's an issue for me that goes deep in ways that may not be relevant to others.
But still I have this other, more disinterested, concern about the way power works within and between social classes. I think there is a strong and growing resentment of the medical field, and this fuels in part a lot of the recent backlash against physicians and their professional recommendations. Of course there is also much of a positive drive to that movement -- a striving to be informed consumers, a rightful desire to have one's complaints taken seriously, a seeking of a more holistic balanced perspective on health, etc. I just also see this undercurrent that streams beneath it, too, and I really do fear that the insistance on social status based on this job is a good bit of the problem.
Now mind you, for the prior generations of physicians, it wasn't so much an individual insistance as it was just an invivible part of the warp and weft of the social fabric. Things are changing, though, and I think that may be good in unexpected ways. But it's only one person's opinion after all, and again, I have some of the most excellent dissenters.
(I think I will always cringe at politicians using a medical title, though! Again, it's in part reverse snobbery -- it seems so tawdry. But in an interaction that is less obviously a commercial transaction, I find it proportionally less disturbing.)
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quote:(I think I will always cringe at politicians using a medical title, though! Again, it's in part reverse snobbery -- it seems so tawdry. But in an interaction that is less obviously a commercial transaction, I find it proportionally less disturbing.)
I would probably agree with that.
And I don't know how old you are, but I have the feeling my dad is not really part of "prior generations"-- he's probably kind of in between your generation of doctors and the "old class" of doctors. He seriously considered becoming a priest as a teenager and when he decided that he was not that invested in the Church, took a year off of school and traveled around the country, earning his way by typing and editing college students' papers, and at the end of it, decided that he wanted to be a priest as a teenager because he wanted to help serve and heal others, and that's when he decided to finish his degree and switch to pre-med and aim for being a doctor. He has carried that into his work all these years, and his friends who are physicians do that too, and I have been privileged to have a PCP (right now my OB/GYN) who has the same attitude (he was a doctor of philosophy and was all set to teach-- and then decided he wouldn't be doing enough good in the world, and wanted to deliver babies instead, and went to medical school.) My mom's colleagues are mostly plastic surgeons who chose, instead of lucrative elective procedures, to specialize in cranial and facial reconstructions and lip/palate repair. My kids' pediatricians are wonderful women who really CARE about their patients and do everything in their power to know every aspect of the care that is given in their offices, including helping the nurses when they are overworked but the doctors have a momentary lull. So I have been fortunate to not really encounter any type of physician but the type who is in the work for the love of healing and helping patients, barring a few incidents as a child, and that is undoubtedly why I am left with such a whole-hearted respect for the profession. I'm aware that there are doctors out there who are probably stuck up, mean, rude, or bad doctors. But they are not what I think of when I think of "doctor," any more than corrupt cops are what I first think of when I think of police officers.
Now, ask me about insurance companies or pharmaceutical companies and I may have another answer for you...
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Just out of curiosity, do you call all these people Doctor, or just MDs and PhDs? For example, if you meet an architect, a lawyer, a pharmacist or a teacher, do you:
Ask them what kind of degree they have so you know how to address them
Assume that they are a doctor unless corrected
Assume that they are not a doctor unless corrected
posted
Speed: if they are a pharmacist, etc., their degree is often on their badge. If I am aware they have a doctorate, I address them as "Doctor" (if I know their last name.) Teachers around here mostly do not have doctorates, so I would tend to assume they are Ms. or Mr., but if I found out they had a doctorate I would ask if they preferred to be called "Dr." (If they teach at a university I would tend to call them "Professor" instead.) Principals usually do have doctorates around here, and are addressed as "Dr." I don't meet many architects, at least not to know what they are. Lawyers I would usually call "Mr." or "Ms." but again, if I found out they had a doctorate I would ask what they preferred to be called. If I do not know what their job or title is, or do not know what their last name is, for that matter, they are "Sir" or "Ma'am" until introduced.
Of course most of this is simplified by the fact that I am usually introduced to people when I am meeting them. Since I have been introduced I will usually know what to call them. Introductions do make things so much simpler. And now that I am an adult, I feel a bit more comfortable addressing people at parties and such by first names when asked to do so, unless they are an "older person", by which I mean, usually, in my parents' generation or older. I just can't bring myself to address people whom I do not know fairly well by their first name if they are old enough to be my mother or father, and ESPECIALLY if they are old enough to be my grandmother or grandfather. I mean, people on Hatrack or something are friends, I would feel comfortable addressing you all intimately. Mostly. But people I meet at church who are 10 years older than my mother? You can bet they will be addressed by titles for a loooong time, if not for as long as I know them.
CT, that would make sense, I guess, since my dad completed his residency in '86, I believe.
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quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen: Speed: if they are a pharmacist, etc., their degree is often on their badge.
I've never seen a pharmacist with their degree printed on their badge. In all the states I've lived in, a badge at retail pharmacy is only legally required to say that the person is a pharmacist, not whether they have a BS or a PharmD.
Just my experience, though. Posts: 2804 | Registered: May 2003
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Well, at the pharmacies I go to they put the degree after the name, so that makes it easy for me. Not that I have much call to address the pharmacist, I'm usually just talking to the PA who takes my information and signs out my meds to me, and that only briefly.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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Interesting. I guess maybe California has different state laws. Or maybe it's a cultural thing, or some corporate rule at whatever pharmacy you visit.
Let me state again, I'm not saying you should call these people "doctor," even if they are. If Californians are anything like me and my peers, I'm sure they honestly don't care. I just wanted to know how consistent your philosophy was. Posts: 2804 | Registered: May 2003
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I don't think it's a legal thing, I think they just do it because the places I choose to frequent are usually mom-and-pop pharmacies where they are proud of their degrees or their kids joining the family business and getting degress, too. Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen: I don't think it's a legal thing, I think they just do it because the places I choose to frequent are usually mom-and-pop pharmacies where they are proud of their degrees or their kids joining the family business and getting degress, too.
Oh, I think now we're getting to the root of the issue. Perhaps when the people you know say they want to be called "doctor," it's not because they're physicians. It's because they're Californians. Posts: 2804 | Registered: May 2003
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Well, I didn't say they wanted to be called doctor. I said I was taught to call them doctor and that is my default form of address to someone I know has a doctorate in formal situations or social situations if I do not know them very, very well.
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My Dad is a doctor, as is his brother and their father. I was taught that the correct form of address for someone with an M.D. is "Dr."
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
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I was raised the same way as AJ and kq -- doctors of all kinds get called "Dr." by the kids.
quote:Originally posted by ClaudiaTherese: I would agree that it is historically common to use "Dr" in social settings in the US. I think it is much less so (either for MD or PhD) on the continent, and that this likely reflects a different culture than in the US.
Maybe this reflects the fact that most of my experience in Europe was with academics and their families (and 15 or more years ago), but that is not my experience at all. Some titles translate better than others to languages other than English, of course.
"Herr Doktor Professor" does enable jokes about my father's barber's physician's teacher, though. Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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