posted
Huh. According to Wikipedia, glass does not flow. Another cherished childhood belief destroyed.
Posts: 9945 | Registered: Sep 2002
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posted
"...glass does flow very slowly over long periods of time. You see it in old houses; the windowpanes will be noticeably thicker at the bottom."
Nope, old windows were made that way. Panes were created by blowing glass bubbles then flattening them -- which leaves behind glass of ever-thicker depth -- then cut and set so that the thicker edges were toward the bottom. When the float glass process was invented, the thicker bottoms disappeared.
Posts: 8501 | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
Looks like we have a real life example of convincing someone that their position is wrong.
Tom, how hard will it be for you to accept that glass does not flow at room temperature under any circumstances?
Posts: 3735 | Registered: Mar 2002
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quote:True, but history shows us that 99 times out of 100, using reasoning and data yields the best answer, so people can try to use reasoning and evidence as much as possible, and make sure that they are doing this by checking with other people to see if their reasoning and logic holds up.
That statistic is made up, and it is false.
The problem with convincing yourself based solely on pure reasoning and data is that reasoning correctly is difficult, if not impossible, for human beings to do. This is true because of two basic characteristics of reasoning:
1. Reasoning is always based on assumptions. Thus, in order to reason correctly you would need your assumptions to all be correct. Otherwise you can end up with a terribly wrong answer. Garbage in, garbage out! And when you consider that most assumptions are "hidden", meaning that we don't even realize we are making them when we rely upon them, it is nearly impossible to know that you are not relying upon any mistaken assumptions.
2. Reasoning about most real life questions is usually extremely complicated, if you aim to do it precisely. Converting questions into symbolic logic often demonstrates that even extremely simple questions can take many many steps to correctly prove. If a question like "Should I go to the movies tonight?" takes thousands of precise logical steps to come to an answer, you can bet that the average person is not going to reason carefully through each step.
If reasoning was done perfectly we could rely upon it to give us perfect answers. But the thing about reasoning is that even the slightest error in reasoning can completely change the conclusion. That's why the above to issues cause such trouble for us. That's how communism famously became popular - people followed a line or reasoning, not realizing that they were making untrue hidden assumptions about the nature of man in society. And that's also how many people are able to justify doing things they know are wrong - they simply slightly alter or overlook some important assumption, or skip some significant step in their reasoning, and all of a sudden what first looked morally wrong now looks like a moral imperative.
That's why I'd argue reasoning should inform human judgement, but should not trump human judgement. If you judge killing someone to be wrong, you should not go kill that person just because someone offers you a line of reasoning that appears sound to you. You should trust your judgement.
The advantage human judgement has is that, even though it is often not exactly on target, it is also almost always close to the target. One tiny logical detail or assumption will not throw it off the way it throws off pure reasoning. It will lead you slightly wrong more than pure reasoning, but it lead you completely wrong far less.
Posts: 8120 | Registered: Jul 2000
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posted
I've never heard that glass flows before. Though I do recall hearing in childhood that even gold and silver are subject to diffusion. I forget if it was someone say it definitely happens, or an older child posing a hypothetical.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
Changing positions is hard. I've done it, but it doesn't take so much a careful reasoning process as it does a paradigm shift. I changed my position on a number of issues when my view of the world changed.
For example:
I was anti-gay as a teenager and early in college. I thought it was disgusting, unnatural, ungodly, immoral, and destructive to a family (thus they should not adopt and raise children).
In part, I was surrounded by people who felt this way. College helped because I began being exposed to other ideas. EXPOSURE to other ideas is, I believe, the first step. When we get trapped in our comfort zones and agree with one another in circles, no change can possibly happen. I often think we don't discuss politics nearly enough in this country. We're afraid to -- afraid to offend or to even lose a friend. The best thing that ever happened to me was to start talking politics with people who disagreed with me, even if I did not immediately change my viewpoint.
It took a few years, but I did do a complete 180 degree turnaround on the homosexuality issue. I am even in favor of gay marriage.
The change came upon me so gradually that it's hard to put my finger on the thing that changed my mind. I can assure you right now that no amount of data or rhetoric will immediately change my opinion on anything. A truly considered opinion takes years to change; it doesn't flip like a coin. On this particular issue, the first thing I came to understand that homosexuality is not entirely a choice. At first I continued with my old beliefs, thinking it was a sin but just one of many sins, neither better nor worse than the others. I know a lot of people who hold this position, but I didn't stop there. I hold a lot of middle of the road opinions, but I wasn't satisfied standing in the road on this one.
All my position changes came upon me slowly...abortion (pro-life to pro-choice), environment (conservative/economic to we'd better do something before it's too late), guns (anti-gun to pro-second amendment...hey, I didn't switch entirely from conservative to liberal, just mostly!)
Anyway, in a nutshell....it takes exposure and time to change an opinion. I hope we keep discussing important issues on this message board so that I never settle too comfortably into my beliefs and stop seeking the truth.
Posts: 2392 | Registered: Sep 2005
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