Starting with the premise that the Bible is fully truthful in every particular: "We lived in our land for millennia" Not even a single millenium. Most of the time was spent in either subjugation or slavery in other lands. "with a well defined national identity and history" Even during the brief periods of self-governance (including as a Roman satrapy), most of the time was spent in internal warfare between various groups who disagreed on that identity and history. "distinct from anyone else" Even Solomon's empire was multicultural and polytheistic.
quote:Originally posted by pooka: Well, techincally the dome of the rock is the 5th holiest site in their religion.
They've been claiming it's the 3rd. However, you'll find that no such claims predate the founding of the Zionist movement in the 1800s.
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quote:Originally posted by Stephan: "There's no either-or about it. One side needs to win. It's the Israeli refusal to win that's been such a big part of keeping this insane conflict alive."
You know that struck a chord. The Palestineans definitely seem to have a stronger will in this. It is their notion of the total destruction of Israel, and the Israeli willingness to compromise that could decide final victory.
I know I've posted this article before, but it's worth doing again. The Israelis currently running the country do not represent the Jewish people. While they certainly lack the will to win, I assure you that there are Jews who do not lack it, and it's only a matter of time before things change.
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quote:Originally posted by Javert: Third holiest is still holy. Or am I mistaken?
You're mistaken. Again, that claim is a very recent one. You can't any source about it that's earlier than when Jews began to return to Israel en masse.
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quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: To be fair, Israel has in the past been quite willing to compromise on land sharing. It's taken a good 50 years for the Palestinians to come around to near the same position, but a lot has changed since then.
They've done no such thing. What's more, you know they've done no such thing, but you insist on repeating the same claptrap over and over.
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: It's been awhile since we've had this particular discussion, it's nice to see that Lisa hasn't lost any of her ethnocentric racist stereotyping charm.
Call me racist again, and I whistle you. It's offensive, and it's a lie. I distinguish between individuals and the group, and it's not doing so which is the hallmark of racism.
You owe me an apology.
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: I don't see Lisa's Israel fanaticism as any different than the fanaticism that drives insurgents in Iraq when they attack US troops. And with Lisa's 'drive them into the desert' mentality, maybe it's a little bit worse. And yeah, I'm being a LITTLE hyperbolic, but only because it's fun to see Lisa come back and defend her crazy-ass positions.
quote:Originally posted by aspectre: Starting with the premise that the Bible is fully truthful in every particular:
And? If you have a problem with that, it's your problem.
quote:Originally posted by aspectre: "We lived in our land for millennia" Not even a single millenium. Most of the time was spent in either subjugation or slavery in other lands.
Actually, it was 850 years from when we entered the land under Joshua until the Babylonian Exile. And not all of us were gone during that Exile; just most of us. Seventy years later, we were back for another 587 years until the Romans destroyed Jerusalem and exiled many of us again. The Bar Kochva revolt 50 some years after that is an example of the fact that we continued living in our land even after the Roman exile. In fact, there have been Jewish communities living in our land continuously for the past 3 and a half millenia. At times, we were few, but even then, Jews the world over prayed every single day (several times a day) for the time that we'd be able to return. Our connection with our homeland has lasted millenia.
quote:Originally posted by aspectre: "with a well defined national identity and history" Even during the brief periods of self-governance (including as a Roman satrapy), most of the time was spent in internal warfare between various groups who disagreed on that identity and history.
In your mistaken opinion.
quote:Originally posted by aspectre: "distinct from anyone else" Even Solomon's empire was multicultural and polytheistic.
There were people in that empire who were polytheistic. There are pedophiles in the US today. That doesn't make the US a "pedophilic nation". Neither was Solomon's empire polytheistic.
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posted
I think that in terms of cities, Jerusalem is the 3rd holiest, but the Dome of the Rock comes after a couple of sites in Mecca and Medina. :shrug: Anyway, I don't agree that their establishment of a shrine was to thumb noses at prior religions, though it's entirely possible that the elevation of its importance was a response to Zionism.
I recall that in August of 2001, there was a congress of Muslim countries that struggled over a resolution equating Zionism with racism. Turkey withdrew over the provision, but Zionism is still considered a dirty world by a lot of people (not myself). The Zionist movement is merely to suggest that out of the two dozen countries in the Middle East, one might be a homeland for Jews instead of Muslims.
The Western Media loves to look at Palestine as a David against a Goliath, but it is Israel that is surrounded on every side by numerous and powerful enemies.
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quote:It was ours before the first Arab came screaming out of the Arabian Peninsula with a sword and a mania, and nothing has changed since then.
You're letting the racisim out a bit too much again, Lisa.
Sorry, ElJay. No racism here.
How is that quoted sentence distinguishing between individuals and a group, exactly?
Actually, that particular instance was referring specifically to the Arabian invasion in the 600s, which was exactly as I've characterised it.
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quote:They've done no such thing. What's more, you know they've done no such thing, but you insist on repeating the same claptrap over and over.
Wait, which side hasn't done that? I gave Isreal the credit they deserve, they've tried several times to find a workable solution, often times to the detriment of their own long term safety. But regardless of your narrow minded position, there's a Palestinian side to the story too, and it's not nearly so simple as you portray it. Further, polls in the last few years have shown Palestinians accept the existance of an Israeli state, and merely want to move on with their lives. It's the extremists who keep things going, and given the situation in Gaza and the West Bank, they look to the extremists before most anyone else to protect them from what they see as Israeli aggression (at least in part an unfair potrayal of Israel's action).
But that's exactly why, unless Israel unilaterally kicks the Palestinians out in a forced exodus, or continues to leave them in 'open air prisons,' as the Palestinians call them, the situation demands an outside mediator. Any aggressive action from Israel, no matter how necessary or deserved, is going to be skewed by Hamas as far worse than it is, which invites reprisals, which invites retaliation from Israel, and regardless of public overtures, the people in the streets, the ones who matter (unlike the politicians) will never see any change.
You're assuming that I'm making up and promoting lies, hell, I'd ask YOU for an apology. Because that's not what I'm doing. I'd like to see a safe, quick solution to the problem over there too, and I believe the people on both sides want an end to the cycles of violence.
And come on, do I really have to go on a long search through the bowels of Hatrack to find examples of you voicing racial stereotypes? You might not be a racist yourself, I don't know you, but you vocalize stereotypical racist comments. I don't know what's in your heart or mind, I just know the things you say out loud here. So whistle away, I won't apologize for what I said, but I will say that I didn't mean to blatently call you racist.
And I didn't call you racist in my last paragraph, I'm not sure which part you specifically took offense to.
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