quote:Originally posted by rivka: Maybe the fact that you have such severe physical reactions to anger would be a better thing to be spending time and energy on?
Probably. I repress a good portion of my anger. But, there's too many people I know that have been effective by things like this. I really ought to try not to read this book about men that dominate and batter women (especially when it comes to the $#@$@#$ advice these stupid Pearl people give women! Every single time you try to get rid of some myth, some stereotype, some misconception like the idea that a woman can actually stop being abused simply by being nicer to her abuser, these folks come along and bring it back from the dead!) instead I should relax and read Harry Potter or Elfquest, but I am not sure how much more I can take.
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quote:Originally posted by Bob_Scopatz: Would you all assert that there are NO children too young, or frequencies too high to consider at least a red flag for potential abuse?
Nope. But that's really not what you said initially.
quote:I would be very open, however, to having any family investigated by child protective services if spanking is the normal corrective action that the parents take.
I sincerely believe that such parents need parenting lessons, and probably should be supervised until they learn better, more effective methods that are less likely to teach unanticipated and clearly unwanted lessons.
That's quite a bit different, at least as I understand what you said. I agree that spanking is not usually a particularly effective method of discipline, especially if it is used all the time. However, I strongly disagree with your statement that parents who do so warrant DCS intervention. Not if we are talking open-hand smacks on a clothed bottom.
jeniwren, right back atcha.
quote:Probably. I repress a good portion of my anger.
Syn, then instead of reading books/sites that get you angry, read something that helps you learn how to deal with your anger. Harriet Lerner has several excellent books on that and related topics.
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We're not talking about open hand spanks on the bottom, these are the sort of folks who don't think that's effective enough. Try being hit on bare skin with a switch, a tree branch, a large glue stick, wooden spoons, belts, paddles, long flexible instruments designed to sting and not leave marks and rubber spatulas, staring at a young age too. Infants. Folks hitting their children over typical baby behaviour like sticking their hands into their food or isolating them over stuff like that. That's what is making me so angry! There is no way children should be hit like that over typical child behavior!
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quote: We're not talking about open hand spanks on the bottom, these are the sort of folks who don't think that's effective enough. Try being hit on bare skin with a switch, a tree branch, a large glue stick, wooden spoons, belts, paddles, long flexible instruments designed to sting and not leave marks and rubber spatulas, staring at a young age too. Infants. Folks hitting their children over typical baby behaviour like sticking their hands into their food or isolating them over stuff like that. That's what is making me so angry! There is no way children should be hit like that over typical child behavior!
Except that these people clearly believe that they are trying to correct these typical child behaviors so that their children don't grow up and start participating in typical teenage behaviors and whatever comes after that.
Say you encountered a teenager who was angry, abusive, foul, rude, and was extremely self reliant. Upon asking his parents about such behavior, you heard them say something like, "We tried everything we could think of, groundings, long talks, family outings, counseling, love, none of it worked, but we just couldn't bring ourselves to spank him ever, and when he got older he was too big to spank."
Would you be so certain that spanking would not have had any impact? I myself do not favor spanking, I hope I never ever use it, but talking about how terrible it is that some people employ its use when their purpose is identical to yours bothers me.
They might as well make the argument, "Those people who refuse to spank their child when they clearly need it are raising tomorrows murderers, con men, thieves, wife beaters, and bullies. Their children ought to be taken out of their custody while there is still a chance to correct their behavior."
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You do realize in some cases correcting typical child like behaviour can make the matters even worse? You're talking about children in a typical developmental stage, like a baby wanting to play with their food, or other things. How can it possibly do a child any good to be raised so strictly? You'll either end up with a very timid teenager who will be vunerable to abuse, especially if they are a girl, or a very angry person who can potentionally be dangerous. Or they could possibly turn out OK, it's risky. What you describe here-"angry, abusive, foul, rude, and was extremely self reliant." is typical of RAD children. And where does RAD come from? A child that hasn't had their emotional needs met in the first few years of their lives, especially those critical 3-5 years. Many children in foster care right now have varying degrees of RAD. These child care methods alienate children from their parents turning them into enemies instead of friends. Parents become recentful of typical child like behaviour and want to basically, call it what it is, beat their children into submission until their will is gone and they are totally compliant to avoid teenage rebellion. I think it could lead to something worse, and it makes me so angry that anyone could possibly think this is an exceptable way to treat a child, especially if you want them to grow up to be a good compassionate person! "Those people who refuse to spank their child when they clearly need it are raising tomorrows murderers, con men, thieves, wife beaters, and bullies. Their children ought to be taken out of their custody while there is still a chance to correct their behavior." This is the very attitude that is dangerous and is causing the problem! Plus, we're not talking about "spanking". What these folks mean as spanking is much much worse! Especially when done to children who are too young to understand why this is happening to them.
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Synesthesia: Says you. How many children have you raised? Successfully? Look I agree with you that a baby does not need corporeal punishment. But when does a child magically become rightfully influenced by it? I am not aware of what RAD stands for btw.
quote: "Those people who refuse to spank their child when they clearly need it are raising tomorrows murderers, con men, thieves, wife beaters, and bullies. Their children ought to be taken out of their custody while there is still a chance to correct their behavior." This is the very attitude that is dangerous and is causing the problem!
And they probably think YOU trying to take THEIR children away from them is part of the problem. You want to take their children away to protect them from physical/emotional abuse, they think YOUR ideas are going exacerbate the problem.
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It seems to me that only in extreme cases should the government force parents to raise their kids a certain way.
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It seems like this thread isn't about whether abusers know they're being abusive, but rather about what defines abuse. Obviously, if you have a different definition of abuse than someone else, it is VERY possible that they abuse (by your standards) without knowing it. As for cases where we all recognize the abuse, I don't know. I'm sure it depends and I don't really want to crawl into the mind of a child abuser (hence the reason I stayed away from this topic for so long ).
As for when it is abuse -- it's awfully difficult to define and that seems to be what a lot of this back and forth is about. Is spanking abusive? If not, when does hitting a child go from spanking to abuse? When does "strict discipline" become emotional abuse?
Wow, that's a tough call. If someone has a magic litmus test, let me know. Unfortunately, I think a lot of it comes down to long-term results and effects on the child. Some children can handle a spanking. Others can't. Some learn to behave and become well-adjusted members of society. Others seem that way on the outside but have bad self-esteem on the inside. Still others take out their frustration by becoming bullies.
Some kids can handle permissive parenting. They are naturally easy-going and tend to listen to authority. Others walk all over their parents, end up with an overblown sense of entitlement, and never learn to live in the real world. That is another form of abuse, when taken to an extreme. One you won't find a parent arrested for, I'll wager.
Having studied psychology, I know that there's an in-between method that i strive for: authoritative parenting which requires and enforces good behavior but does so in a loving, sensitive way. Sometimes it's a hard balance to strike.
I do not spank. I won't dismiss all spanking as abusive, but I think it is easy to cross the line. It is difficult to hit a child without anger. It's easy to hit harder when a tap on the butt didn't work. It's easy to start spanking for any little infringement and not just use it sparingly. Because it's easy, I choose to try other strategies and not even get into the spanking at all.
I took some behavioral psychology classes in school. We know from research that a spanking creates an immediate response -- the behavior will STOP. So, for example, if your child is about to run into the street and you hit them, they won't run out into that street. On the other hand, we know that spanking does not lead to long term learning. Positive reinforcement tends to promote learning the best since it helps a child understand what to do instead of what not to do. (The latter creates something of a void and the child may not know what to do.)
Personally, I don't even spank when my son runs towards the street. I grab him and pick him up and this also stops the behavior. I have had plenty of success with positive reinforcement and logical consequences. In other words, if he won't stay on the sidewalk, I hold him and he doesn't get to walk on his own. As he likes to walk, this is a negative for him and so he has learned to stay on the sidewalk. When he does stay on the sidewalk I praise him for it.
Syn has been making some very good points about a child's level of cognitive ability that I'm not sure everyone is understanding. Any form of discipline needs to take into account the level of ability and maturity of a child. You wouldn't expect a newborn to use the toilet and if you punished them for going in their diaper, that would seem abusive to me. This is obvious, but I notice that as babies turn into toddlers (babies who can walk), some mistakenly think they are full-blown children who can handle much more than they really can. My parents are like this, to be honest. I think they forget what a toddler is when my son comes over for a visit. Certainly, there are many things I expect of my son but using a spoon and fork consistently at dinner is not one of them, nor is using the toilet, or cleaning up his toys unassisted. I do expect him to touch the kitty nicely, not pull my hair, and to stay on the sidewalk when we're out for a walk.
Sorry for the long post...like I said, a very complex issue. There is definitely a lot of gray area.
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Syn, if you really want to prepare to raise kids using attachment parenting, getting your anger under control should be a top priority.
You cannot effectively parent if you can't control your anger. Children need parents to be calm and in control of themselves first. All the theories you're reading about attachment and forming bonds of trust will not help you if you get incoherently angry whenever you read something upsetting.
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quote: "Those people who refuse to spank their child when they clearly need it are raising tomorrows murderers, con men, thieves, wife beaters, and bullies. Their children ought to be taken out of their custody while there is still a chance to correct their behavior." This is the very attitude that is dangerous and is causing the problem!
And they probably think YOU trying to take THEIR children away from them is part of the problem. You want to take their children away to protect them from physical/emotional abuse, they think YOUR ideas are going exacerbate the problem.
I have often sensed that people view discipline as a hierarchy, with spanking at the top -- the one thing that can get the job done when all else fails.
I don't believe that for a second. The thing that gets the job done when all else fails is consistency, follow through, and, as dkw pointed out, control of your own emotions.
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quote:Originally posted by Christine: Syn has been making some very good points about a child's level of cognitive ability that I'm not sure everyone is understanding.
That's exactly what I'm talking about. A newborn baby is not going to learn to put other people first if their father gets served his meal before him or her. The baby is going to suffer for a no good reason and not understand why. Nor is a baby going to learn discipline by being put on a strict schedule their body isn't ready for. There is a different between routines that benefit the child, and a strict schedule that is more about parental convience than what the kid needs. When they are newborn, a lot of them cannot go 8 hours without being fed. They have small stomachs. A toddler isn't going to development self control by being hit with a switch or another object just for being a toddler. Their brains are still developing, still making connections so being slow and patient with them is much better than forcing them against their will. You can't expect two year olds to clean up themselves after having an accident, yet many of the people who use these parenting techiniques have those expectations.
quote: Syn, if you really want to prepare to raise kids using attachment parenting, getting your anger under control should be a top priority.
I'm really slow to anger, in fact, it can take me ages, maybe even years to get properly angry about something, but you can't expect me not to get angry when children are being mistreated, even if the person has good intentions.
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It doesn't really matter why you're angry. A baby or toddler can't tell the difference between "Mommy is angry" and "Mommy is angry at me." If you can't control your emotions, no matter how justified you think they are, you will not be a good attachment parent.
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I can be endlessly patient when it comes to children. It's adults that know better that I have a problem with. But I am in counseling now anyway... Hopefully I can stop delaying anger and burying it.
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quote: I'm really slow to anger, in fact, it can take me ages, maybe even years to get properly angry about something, but you can't expect me not to get angry when children are being mistreated, even if the person has good intentions.
Your opposition certainly does not get bent out of shape at the fact that your children will not get the dicipline they feel every child needs. At least I have never heard that sentiment expressed.
Look, while I personally agree with your statements about corporeal punishment for babies and even toddlers, I am not willing to get angry at parents who disagree with us. I am unwilling to state that my way is the only right way, and their way is completely wrong in every case. That position is a pretty difficult one to defend and correctly take.
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Syn -- I don't know you, and it's so hard to read people on forums sometimes, but a high percentage of your posts seem to be really angry or frustrated at the world. You "can't stand", by your own description, a lot of human behavior that just isn't going to change any time soon. Personally, if I invested as much emotion into caring as much about thing as you appear to, I would be absolutely exhausted, and would have very little left over to care for my children.
This is not an attack. Just something to think about.
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I just wish there was something I could do about it.. I can't find anything right in their approach towards children, even though they love and care about their kids. My mother cared about me a lot and was with me through my time in the hospital and taught me how to write letters and stuff, but she still did the things she did that is only just now making me so angry, especially since I am not sure if i had the best example of how to be a parent from her, my father or my grandmother, though she definetly gave me a good foundation.... Children are way too valuable for this kind of treatment. The best I can do is when I become a parent to give them a foundation of love and trust that can counter things like this... And also to find a person who has the same sentiment when it comes to kids... I don't know what else to do or how the system or attitudes will change any time soon when you try to challenge them and they get brought back in the name of conservative Christianity. (And not all conservative Christians are this way, many of them have valuable insights, when did it get so.... distorted?)
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quote: I'm really slow to anger, in fact, it can take me ages, maybe even years to get properly angry about something, but you can't expect me not to get angry when children are being mistreated, even if the person has good intentions.
I am unwilling to state that my way is the only right way, and their way is completely wrong in every case. That position is a pretty difficult one to defend and correctly take.
I'm not sure if I said that, I'm trying to avoid statements like that, but it light of these studies, it could be the case. I don't understand why a person must feel guilty for rocking their baby which is what they need the most at that age... adopted children in particular, especially when their situations are extreme... Maybe being gentle and firm, finding a middle ground, being consistant and doing the right thing for each individual child and following ones natural insticts with a lot of thought is the best thing to do.
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quote: I'm really slow to anger, in fact, it can take me ages, maybe even years to get properly angry about something, but you can't expect me not to get angry when children are being mistreated, even if the person has good intentions.
I am unwilling to state that my way is the only right way, and their way is completely wrong in every case. That position is a pretty difficult one to defend and correctly take.
I'm not sure if I said that, I'm trying to avoid statements like that, but it light of these studies, it could be the case. I don't understand why a person must feel guilty for rocking their baby which is what they need the most at that age... adopted children in particular, especially when their situations are extreme... Maybe being gentle and firm, finding a middle ground, being consistant and doing the right thing for each individual child and following ones natural insticts with a lot of thought is the best thing to do.
Well I can certainly agree with all of that.
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Syn: It sounds like you're still dealing with a less than ideal upbringing. I can relate to that. My father hit me with a belt and to this day I won't wear one. That has a lot to do with why I reject spanking. I think some of my parents' decisions hurt my self-confidence and self-worth. I know they meant well, but there it is. I accepted the role they played to gain understanding, but I forgive them because I know they meant well and because I need closure on that so I can move forward and be the best parent I can be.
I do want to caution you, though. I have noticed that one of two things happen with new parents whose childhood wasn't good. They either become their parents or go to opposite extremes.
I have a lot of respect for attachment parenting. I agree with and practice many of the tenets there, ESPECIALLY for newborns. However; some attachment parenters interpret the technique to mean that if a child is not doing something, then they can't/shouldn't. The biggest example of this that I have seen is sleep. Many toddlers of attachment parenters sleep poorly because their parents never did anything to sleep train. This manifests in many different ways -- not taking naps, not sleeping at night, needing to sleep in their parents' bed at 2, 3, 4...(Ok, some people think "the family bed" is a good idea and so fine, but others are trying to get their toddlers to sleep on their own and don't understand what the problem is when they keep waking up in the middle of the night and end up in mommy's bed)
Some take attachment parenting to mean that they should never do anything to upset their child and they need to keep them from crying any way they can. (The kid in the candy store.) I've seen these types of parents give in to their children to avoid arguments or tears and this, too, is a bad idea.
I don't think that attachment parenting as a philosophy means to be that way, but as "occasional spanking" can lead to abusive beating, so too the next step for many attachment parenters is permissive parenting. Some people have trouble finding the moderate road. (I'm a passionate moderate, btw. I think the answers to most of life's great debates are somewhere in the middle.)
Watch out for extremes is what I'm saying. If you'll excuse the example from Harry Potter -- both Dudley and Harry were abused in their own ways. Posts: 2392 | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:Watch out for extremes is what I'm saying. If you'll excuse the example from Harry Potter -- both Dudley and Harry were abused in their own ways.
Interestingly enough they BOTH need a swift kick to the butt at times to be honest.
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I definetly want to find the middle ground between folks who sit with perfect poster and never speak unless when spoken to and wild ruffians. Though wild ruffians wouldn't be too bad if they were old enough to take to Dir en grey concerts . I want my children to be able to be themselves and feel what they feel, but I also want them to be compassionate and to treat other people with respect and not to tear up whole entire supermarkets and grow up to do drugs and have irresponsible sex ><.
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Syn, please start quoting the material you find specifically appalling because I'm finding your editorials to be maddening, at best. I find the implication that conservative Christian child rearing is abusive to be very offensive. Unless you cite actual material that is odious, I'm going to have to believe that you've misinterpreted something.
You mentioned Dobson on page 1. I've read a fair amount of his material and know of nothing in it that is contrary to good parenting. He's extremely qualified as a parenting expert with a PhD in child development and many years in private practice as a licensed family and child counselor. If you have specific gripes with his work, please list them, or have the grace to be honest and say you don't have a clue what you're talking about.
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I'll have to list more stuff when I get home, but, Dobson is mild compared to these people. He doesn't like the idea of men working too hard and not spending enough time with their kids. My gripe with him is he believes in hitting children with a flexible instrument starting at the age of 18 months because pain as a disciplinary tool is consistent with nature. He also advocated grabbing an 8 year old by the neck until his knees buckle in Dare to Discipline and even HE has a problem with Ezzo's tactics. He hasn't practice Psychology in over 30 years, but he does know about attachment and the like, but he uses that pseudo-Fruedian idea of how children become homosexuals which is outmoded. Dobson's remarks on Ezzo-http://www.ezzo.info/Focus/dobsontranscript.htm http://www.ezzo.info/Focus/FOTF_9-04.htm Quotes from Ezzo's books about children- http://www.tulipgirl.com/mt/archives/000593.html http://www.tulipgirl.com/mt/archives/000598.html One notable quote. Spanking, Chastisement and Punishment: Three chapters in GKGW are devoted to spanking with Biblical passages to support Ezzo's theory. The type instrument to use is described as: "a somewhat flexible instrument (that) stings without inflicting bone or muscle damage…if there is no pain, then the instrument is probably too light or too flexible" (p. 217). Children as young as 14 months are spanked with three to five swats (per incident); older children receive more (an ambiguous term that could result in abuse).
That means that if a toddler repeatedly gets out of bed, you're to hit the with 3 to 5 strokes per incident! There has to be a better way to deal with this. I'll find more when I get home, I have to write letters now. Also you ignored me saying (And not all conservative Christians are this way, many of them have valuable insights) When I get home i'll have to site some stuff from the Pearls, I can't figure out who pisses me off more, the Pearls or the Ezzos.
Also, I can site conservatives that have used these techniques and their results... I think Tulipgirl is conservative.
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I already said I don't really have anything to say about Ezzo. I don't know anything about him or his work and just from a cursory search of the web, it looks like you're in good company with thinking he's a nutcase.
I don't know what you're talking about re: Dobson advocating beating with a flexible instrument and grabbing a kid to make his knees buckle. Exact quotes, please.
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I haven't read much of James Dobson. I am wary of him because I am not a believer in the pro-spanking position that suggests that most or all children should or deserve to be spanked at some point. I remember hearing on the radio (sorry, no EXACT quote as it wasn't written down) that he believes a person should use a "neutral object" rather than a hand in order that a child not learn to fear the hand of the parent. I believe this is very bad advice since it is much easier when using an object to hit harder than you realize.
I did find an interesting site when looking for exact quotes by Dobson:
I skimmed through it and have to admit, I don't see myself taking advice from James Dobson based on what he's said there. He's no Ezzo, but his overall philosophy is definitely not mine!
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Dude! Dobson GETS it when it comes to abusive relationships unlike Debi Pearl. He annoys me, but I like him a bit better for this
quote:After moving out and making it clear that the woman has no intention of returning, the ball moves to her husband's court. If he never responds, she never returns. If it takes a year, or five years, then so be it. He has to want her badly enough to face his problem and to reach out to her. When (and if) her husband acknowledges that he has an abusive behavior pattern and promises to deal with it, negotiations can begin. A plan can be agreed upon that involves intensive Christian counseling with a person of the wife's choosing. She should not return home until the counselor concludes that she will be safe and that the husband is on the way to recovery. Gradually, they put their relationship back together.
It's a long shot but one worth working to achieve.
Good for him! He's not blaming it on the woman the way Created to Be His Helpmeet seems to do!
Him on objects to be used for spanking http://yourchild.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/yourchild.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=779 Which is only useful for people who don't lack subtlty and have the control to STOP HITTING. He also advocates the use of paddles. Those things are huge! This idea bothers me- Nothing brings a parent and child closer together than for the mother or father to win decisively after being defiantly challenged.” This too Dobson recommends painful squeezing of the trapezius muscle on the neck to obtain “instant obedience.” Now to get back to work and do more letters!!! eee!
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Oh, I can't resist, here are some of my favorites:
"Real crying usually lasts two minutes or less, but may continue for five. After that point, the child is merely complaining... I would require him to stop the protest crying, usually by offering him a little more of whatever caused the original tears."
"Some strong-willed children absolutely demand to be spanked, and their wishes should be granted."
"When a child has lowered his head and clenched his fist, he is daring the parent to take him on."
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That's the very stuff that bugs me about him. And Ezzo and Pearl are about 34245435435 times worse than Dobson. I hate this idea of war with a child...
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quote:Originally posted by Synesthesia: That's the very stuff that bugs me about him. And Ezzo and Pearl are about 34245435435 times worse than Dobson. I hate this idea of war with a child...
Do you disagree that children declare war on a parents right to authority?
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Christine, that page you linked to was correlating abuse, clear abuse, and taking Dobson's quotes clearly out of context with the corresponding "good" quote. In other words, they were comparing apples and oranges, while being very unsubtle in their agenda that spanking is abuse.
An example of what I mean:
quote:Victims Information Bureau of Suffolk County: If your partner has to change her behavior in order to keep herself free from your physical or verbal assaults... then she is being abused." 25 James Dobson: "Corporal punishment in the hands of a loving parent is a teaching tool by which harmful behavior is inhibited." 26
The first quote is obviously about women and men in a peer relationship. Dobson was talking about the parent child relationship, in which a parent is clearly not peer to the child. The relationships are diffferent, as are the inherent responsibilities.
Most of the quotes go this way. Perhaps you have a better resource to draw on?
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Also, a lot of the quotes come from a book that Dobson wrote 40 years ago, which has since been updated. I doubt seriously that these quotes remain in the updated version.
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They are in there. I read most of it some months ago, it's the grab the kid by the neck and squeeze that nerve thing that gets me the most.
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Then perhaps you'd like a better analogy. When my son was first born, I liked to joke that I'd given birth to a barbarian and it was my job now to civilize him. Either way, there are battles along the way. There are tricks to avoid outright battles, but sometimes, it does come down to "I'm the Mom and we're going to do it my way." -- after all, who has more life experience? You, or the child? That doesn't make you always right, but it should give you some insights the child by his lack of experience couldn't possibly appreciate. THere is nothing more comical than watching someone try to reason with a 2 year old in the midst of a tantrum.
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The comparison didn't get me -- it was the specific quotes. And I don't know about 40 years ago vs. today. If he's changed his mind, maybe you could come up with the new quotes since you seem to be well-read on Dobson. In the meantime, the things I quoted above seemed incredibly wrong to me -- in context or out. It seems like Dobson is wanting to wage a war with his kids. I also don't like the attitude that kids need to be hit. He can talk about doing this out of love all he wants, but when a kid has his head down and has his fists balled and you take that as an invitation to hit him, then it seems to me that you are reacting out of anger and need for absolute submission on the part of your children.
I do not believe in absolute submission, either.
Those quotes were plenty for me to decide not to want to go looking for other quotes! Posts: 2392 | Registered: Sep 2005
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Then perhaps you'd like a better analogy. When my son was first born, I liked to joke that I'd given birth to a barbarian and it was my job now to civilize him. Either way, there are battles along the way. There are tricks to avoid outright battles, but sometimes, it does come down to "I'm the Mom and we're going to do it my way." -- after all, who has more life experience? You, or the child? That doesn't make you always right, but it should give you some insights the child by his lack of experience couldn't possibly appreciate. THere is nothing more comical than watching someone try to reason with a 2 year old in the midst of a tantrum.
I just had a post all thought out about this!
I don't like the war analogy. To me, a war is that insane woman in the store, fighting with her 2-year-old. A war is offense and defensive fighting, including engaging in and starting your own battles. I definitely don't like the war analogy!
I prefer to say that children will test boundaries and that the parent needs to stand firm. I also think the parent needs to set reasonable boundaries in the first place, both because children need some room to explore and because unreasonable boundaries are going to be more tempting to cave on.
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quote:Originally posted by Synesthesia: That's the very stuff that bugs me about him. And Ezzo and Pearl are about 34245435435 times worse than Dobson. I hate this idea of war with a child...
Do you disagree that children declare war on a parents right to authority?
Not really. If you're a parent, you're the parent. No screaming 2 year old, yelling and cursing 12 year old or raging teenager is going to change the fact that you're the parent, you have more experience, you know more, you're bigger and stronger until they get that growth spurt. That sort of attitude just leads to animosity, and who needs that in families? If you have the authority, you have it, use it, but I don't see why such extreme force is needed on a child when you can rule them with patience and compassion. The only think i agree with Michael Pearl on is being in control. I don't agree you need a switch or tree branch to enforce it.
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Synesthesia: That's the very stuff that bugs me about him. And Ezzo and Pearl are about 34245435435 times worse than Dobson. I hate this idea of war with a child...
Do you disagree that children declare war on a parents right to authority?
Yes, I disagree that children declare war on a parent's right to authority.
Posts: 628 | Registered: Nov 1999
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posted
Children are designed to grow up and leave their parents. Temporary solutions that keep them in control when they are young, but don't make allowances for them separating from their parents are not helpful, whether it's making children TOO attached to their children, or being so strict it leads some to totally rebel against their parents values.
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
Hey! DeathofBees, welcome back, good to see you!
Disclaimer: I have no kids, so this is my completely inexpert opinion.
There's something to be said for associating unpleasant consequences with dangerous behavior. If the kid is too young to understand that running out in the street can result in death or injury, I suppose spanking the child immediately might be the best course of action. With very young children, your options for helping them understand what is dangerous may be limited.
I don't think spanking is abuse. Not in the form used by most parents, anyway. However, I think it's closer to the line than I would personally be comfortable with. I would be concerned about the temptation to hit in anger, so I would probably try to avoid hitting altogether. Additionally, I wonder if spanking can cause children to have problems with being touched.
Synesthesia, I think it's admirable that you care about people who are suffering. Unfortunately, sometimes you can't do anything about it. I find it frustrating that there are children who grow up with parents who don't support them in their education, for instance. I was very fortunate to have parents who did support me. But I can't really do much to change other people. I can only resolve to be a positive force in society by raising my own children to value learning and curiosity.
I sometimes feel like I have to save the world. It's good to remind myself that making a small difference matters, too.
Posts: 3546 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Synesthesia: Again I agree that the threat of violence is not the best way to control a child. But if you say, "No you can't go to the candy store again." and the child respond with stamping his/her foot and begins running briskly for the candy store, what can you do besides chase after him/her and physically impeded his/her ability to go in that direction? Or else yell, "You get back here RIGHT this minute or..(insert your threat here.)
Anyway you slice it your authority has been challenged and you must reassert it.
Sharpie: Well either our definition of war is disimilar, or we don't live in the same world.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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I doubt that's a challange of authority anymore than my bunny eating something he's not supposed to and continuing to do it when I tell him to stop. It's a kid, they are going to want to go into the candy store regardless. A teenager that takes the car over and over without asking... nope, still a thoughtless teenager (they haven't developed their full frontal cortex completely yet.) but they still can tell the different between what's right and what's wrong better than a child can. I think it's a child being stubborn and wanting to have their own way more than anything. Seeing it as a challenge to ones authority only leads to more anger against the child, then the child gets angry at the parent, and what does that solve? The parent is in control by virtue of size and age (unless they are a little person) You can take the child and firmly explain to them that they are NOT going into the store and that is all there is to that.
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote:I doubt that's a challange of authority anymore than my bunny eating something he's not supposed to and continuing to do it when I tell him to stop.
Except that a Bunny has asbolutely no ability to recognize the concept of authority, or right and wrong in this instance. Its a very faulty analogy to compare a child to a bunny.
quote:A teenager that takes the car over and over without asking... nope, still a thoughtless teenager (they haven't developed their full frontal cortex completely yet.) but they still can tell the different between what's right and what's wrong better than a child can.
Your frontal lobe comment seems speculative at best, if you could link studies that support this I'd appreciate it. Also making teenagers marginally more able to distinguish right and wrong then toddlers is not accurate to say it nicely. My immaturity and inexperience as a teenager does not excuse the stupid things I did as a teenager, nor does it make what I did acceptable or exempt from punishment.
Being stubborn and wanting your own way dispite your parents stance on an action IS a challenge to their authority. You are saying, "I don't think you can/will stop me." or "I accept the predetermined punishment designated for this action, I don't believe you will actually go through with it, or else I am willing to endure it, the crime is worth the temporary punishment."
I don't think you give human beings enough credit for their inteligence.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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Syn, I totally empathise for the need to "do something" when you read disturbing books or sites like "BabyWise" or "To Train up a Child". Believe me- I've been a part of the radical AP community for years, and even we have come to realise for the most part there's so little we can do. (One thing I do is if I fond one of those books secondhand- thrift store or yard sale- I buy it and then take great joy in burning it. I took care to read them first, so I would know whereof I speak). Some folks feel better if they bury those books behind pro-attachment books at the bookstore. Or you could print up these handy bookmarks:http://www.geocities.com/antiezzo/index.html
Posts: 2711 | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: Synesthesia: Again I agree that the threat of violence is not the best way to control a child. But if you say, "No you can't go to the candy store again." and the child respond with stamping his/her foot and begins running briskly for the candy store, what can you do besides chase after him/her and physically impeded his/her ability to go in that direction? Or else yell, "You get back here RIGHT this minute or..(insert your threat here.)
Anyway you slice it your authority has been challenged and you must reassert it.
Sharpie: Well either our definition of war is disimilar, or we don't live in the same world.
I have some difficulty with this example. First of all, by the time a child is old enough to run off to the candy store on his/her own, if you need to physically overpower them to bring them back, then it may be that your foundation is rocky to begin with. I do have to physically go and get my 18-month-old if he, say, ran into the street (which he knows not to do -- and not because I spanked him), but I expect that by the time he's 9 or 10 (the earliest I could see him going to the corner candy store on his own) that getting into a physical fight would be unproductive at best.
In the meantime, if he wants candy from the checkout, I need only say no. If he grabs it and takes a bite then I do have to pay for it, but I assure you he will not be eating it -- the trash can will (in plain view of the child).
I think "control" is an interesting word choice that keeps coming up here. From the moment of birth, we all want to be in control and by the time a child is an adult, he or she should be able to be in control of his or her own life. That means that from birth, a certain amount of "control" must be given to the child.
Meanwhile, there are other words I prefer such as authority. A parent needs to have authority over their children. I'm sure we're both describing the same thing but to me, control brings to mind power struggles and living someone's life for them. Meanwhile, authority comes with respect and obedience. Obedience is another good word. We need our children to obey us, we don't need them to lose who they are in the process because we control them. Like I said, probably semantics but there it is...
Love and logic is an approach to parenting that I quite like. It advocates giving children and even babies as many choices as possible -- giving them a sense of power and control. For example, this morning I showed my 18-month-old two boxes of cereal and let him pick which one he wanted for breakfast. He loves making that choice and being in control of that aspect of his life. Meanwhile, I decided that we were going to have breakfast, when, where, and narrowed it down to two choices of what.
Ironically, when children feel empowered like that they are more likely to obey their parents -- not less. There are boundaries they need to respect and they know that (you set them and enforce them) but they have power, they have choices, they have the ability to define themselves and so they don't need to rebel to get even a modicum of control over their own world.
Anyway, this has surely turned into a ramble by now! Posts: 2392 | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
Ezzo parents would probably give a red cup to a child that wants a blue cup (It's what this woman I will site later mentioned)
It's a bit weird to compare rabbits and children, but both have no idea that eating large amounts of candy is bad for them. They only know it tastes good and cannot think of the consequences (sickness, death) Unlike me, who can walk away from the temptation of buying ice cream despite the fact that I really want it. I can think of how unhealthy it is for me (Having just consumed 2 sundaes, or maybe just 1, I only ate less than half of each) Bunnies can be hierarchical though. I just haven't figured out how to dominate mine yet... (he's too cute.) It's up to me to hide any candy or apples from him because he doesn't have the intelligence to know too many isn't good for him (he just has the intelligence to know that my backpack = food.) I read about the difference between teenager brains and adult brains in a book called the Boy who was Raised as a Dog and someone on Dr. Phil mentioned it. He talked about how her daughter's brain wasn't fully developed and wouldn't be until the age of 20. Then her mother starts yelling at her and they are both thinking with their animal brains making each other madder and madder.
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote:I have some difficulty with this example. First of all, by the time a child is old enough to run off to the candy store on his/her own, if you need to physically overpower them to bring them back, then it may be that your foundation is rocky to begin with. I do have to physically go and get my 18-month-old if he, say, ran into the street (which he knows not to do -- and not because I spanked him), but I expect that by the time he's 9 or 10 (the earliest I could see him going to the corner candy store on his own) that getting into a physical fight would be unproductive at best.
Many parents have told me that they have focused on a specific negative behavior for years before it ever stopped.
It took me almost 20 years to figure out a way to not be angry at my brother almost all the time, and my parents did everything they could to help. They could no more stop me from being critical of him then invent perpetual motion.
This same brother has struggled with obesity and controlling what food he eats and believe me my parents did all they could to help him too.
A perfect parent is not going to always raise a child who acts perfectly.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
Synesthesia: Animals have to respond to challenges in authority all the time. Take lions for example, if an adolecent does not do as its told the adult females will all claw and bite at it and then break it off when they are satisfied their message has been made. Cubs are routinely cuffed and nipped at until they do as directed.
If their mothers do not do these things, the cubs could easily die in a high risk environment.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
Perfection is an illusion anyway. People depress and stress themselves out and other people too much trying to achieve it. You can only do your best, and work hard at it, at everything.
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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I'm not sure where that response came from...of course children are going to misbehave. My point was that getting into a physical fight with a 10-year-old is ludicrous.
By the time they are ten, you need to have established a better form of discipline than physically pinning a child and forcing them back into the house.
I'm reminded of an episode of Super Nanny where a mother is holding her 5-year-old son in her lap while he kicks, screams, and bites her. It was horrible! That's just not a good way of dealing with a child.
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Thanks for your kind words rivka. I really appreciate them and you.
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