posted
I think Counter Bean is overly supportive of bad leadership, but beyond that, everything he says makes sense.
Lavalamp is clueless as to the reality of the situation in Iraq, and the military's relationship with...everything, and keeps digging a hole that I think should be labeled "I know more than you do about what you're doing".
Just to set the record straight, I know more about what we're doing than pretty much everyone, and BC/CB is waaay closer to the governmental concept of the way things WILL CONTINUE to be done than anyone else. If you think you can change the system, carry on, but if all you are willing to do is pick on a "nut" on an internet forum then worthless may well be your middle name.
Posts: 1156 | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by airmanfour: I think Counter Bean is overly supportive of bad leadership, but beyond that, everything he says makes sense.
Lavalamp is clueless as to the reality of the situation in Iraq, and the military's relationship with...everything, and keeps digging a hole that I think should be labeled "I know more than you do about what you're doing".
Just to set the record straight, I know more about what we're doing than pretty much everyone, and BC/CB is waaay closer to the governmental concept of the way things WILL CONTINUE to be done than anyone else. If you think you can change the system, carry on, but if all you are willing to do is pick on a "nut" on an internet forum then worthless may well be your middle name.
it's the primary label of that post.....because attempting to refer to some sort of veiled authority is pathetic.
My entire family has been in the service, including high ranking members of the Navy and the Marines, and not one of them supports the tactics we currently use, or were supportive of the over all strategy we went in there with.
Hell, even Bush Sr. knew what would happen, and wrote it into his one book.
We are failing, and it is because we set ourselves up for failure from the beginning.
THAT is a slap in the face of all of the soldiers over there, even if they don't realize it.
We were lied to from the beginning, and unprepared for the conflict. When the military spoke up against the plans. no one listened.....and even Generals knew it wasn't going to work.
But when they spoke up, they were called ignorant, and unAmerican.
Even treasonous.
We have seen how well THAT worked, haven't we?
Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged |
Which military advisors were called un-American and treasonous, for saying the war plan wouldn't work? That's significant news, and should be publicized.
On another note: what tactics would have worked, according to the military? That would have been a debate worth having nationally.
Posts: 1877 | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
You weren't lied to? Rice, Rumsfeld, and various intelligence officials all asserted in speeches there was no possible usage other than nuclear centrifuges for shipments of aluminum tubes, despite, as it has come out, being shortly prior provided evidence of significant dissent by experts at the Energy Department (including with examples of alternate uses, specifically a common type of missile used by Iraq).
Would you care to clarify how that wasn't a lie?
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
As for tactics that would have worked, the original military plan included a significantly larger last wave, mostly to help with immediately post-combat operations, which were considered very important to preserving infrastructure and the like.
That got removed at the last minute because the combat itself was going well.
I realize that part of the job of the military in THIS war includes going around looking for things, and setting up schools and handing out food, and treating medical problems, and so on.
I'm just saying they aren't particularly the best tool we have for those jobs.
What I mean by all out is that if you don't let the military do what it does without a bunch of restrictions -- or rather if you CAN'T do that because of the situation, you end up putting our own men and women in additional danger and, typically, make it very hard for them to achieve the overall objectives.
airmanfour, I'd be curious to hear exactly how you think the military is the tool we should be using to foster democracy. Bean's list aside (and I do reject most of it as not very good examples of MILITARY imposition of democracy, since that isn't exactly what happened in those cases), I'm really at a loss to think of examples of how the US military has shown itself capable of installing a democratic style of government anywhere. The original verbiage about Iraq from this Administration included a vague plan to send a wave of advisors to help them build the institutions. This was all predicated on a lot of things, apparently, but one of the biggest was that they actually wanted it and wanted us to help them become like us.
Turns out they really may not want that.
Bean -- your summary of the Sunni/Shia problem proves my point more dramatically than I could've ever wanted. If your attitude is typical of our troops, it pretty much also proves my point that the US military is the wrong tool for this job.
posted
This is the first I'd heard that WMD technology could not be dual use, yes. (Although I'm not sure "using it to build missiles" qualifies as "not for WMDs.")
Thanks for the links; I look forward to reading them.
Posts: 1877 | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
btw, Bean, I'm not exactly sure what you think I'm supposed to apologize for. So far, you've misread my posts and taken offense. Should I apologize for your reading something more than what was there?
posted
Honor is alive in the military, so many people have seen it that it has become the most common description of our soldiers everywhere in the world. Except occasional foul mouth punks who think they know the world because they unhooked a bra. Samurai warriors were astonished by the Honor of American soldiers, nowhere in this country do people feel frightened instead of relieved when they see the uniform, but some punks scoff at the idea of a people learning honor from us. A mind that can hold such an opinion is too rotted to interact with.
Posts: 231 | Registered: Feb 2007
| IP: Logged |
The military is not, and can not be, a democratic organization. That says nothing about their honor, or courage, or many other desirable traits. Neither do their honor, or courage, or many other desirable traits necessarily make them the best tool for teaching democracy.
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
| IP: Logged |
I cannot imagine what people think soldiers are for if it is not to fight, how does 'bring those boys back home' make sense when the boys are a professional army made up of volunteers? It is like showing your support for baseball by canceling the season. Lets show our support for plumbers by digging wells and hauling water.
Did anyone catch that episode of the Daily Show where Rob Riggle says that the surge is a good idea because it's operationally sound (i.e. because it's possible)?
Posts: 1762 | Registered: Apr 2006
| IP: Logged |
Congrats, Sarge. But you should learn how to spell it correctly.
When I first got made a "Network Administrator," I made sure to get all those letters in the right places on my business card.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
As has been pointed out, you are misreading my posts. You've done it again. If you'd wanted to know my opinion of military honor, I would've gladly given it to you.
Please tell me what that has to do with anything that's been discussed so far.
Have I once called the military or the men and women in it "dishonorable?" (Barring, of course, specific cases of actual bad behavior)
Posts: 300 | Registered: Dec 2002
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Lavalamp: The military can't even spell democracy....
quote:And there isn't a military experts opinion on that stuff that we should care about or trust.
quote:Are you saying that you expected we could succeed in grafting our notions of incorruptibility of law enforcement there using the military as teachers?
And that it'd be done on a reasonable time frame?
I'm sorry, but that's just not realistic based on history of our military or the people in the region we're hoping to impact.
If that was the idea, I'm going to have to call say that our decision-makers were even more clueless than I thought. I just figured they were wildly over-optimistic. I didn't realize they actually expected our military to be the ones to train their police to be incorruptible. And that the lessons were supposed to be learned by example.
Yeah, you sound friendly.
Oh, and D-E-M-O-C-R-A-C-Y.
Posts: 1156 | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Airman, what makes you think that our military is qualified to teach Iraqis how to be civilian police?
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
| IP: Logged |
quote: Airman, what makes you think that our military is qualified to teach Iraqis how to be civilian police?
In my unit it is because about a third of them are civilian police(or CJ majors), and another third are DOC
Posts: 231 | Registered: Feb 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
Will: The assertion was that the tubes, quote, "are only really suited for nuclear weapons programs, centrifuge programs" (that's from Rice).
That's different from also being useful for missiles.
Of course, they weren't useful as centrifuges, either. In fact, one nuclear scientist (no nuclear scientist argued they were for centrifuges; the push was by a former nuclear engineer at the CIA) pointed out that if they were for centrifuges, that Iraq had demonstrated better centrifuge technology years before, and that if they were going to switch to these we should encourage it since they were incredibly unsuited.
Furthermore, we'd known they were buying these types of pipes for a long time. Iraq hadn't tried to hide it, either, because they were for missiles it was legal for them to have.
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: Airman, what makes you think that our military is qualified to teach Iraqis how to be civilian police?
The only people I know (personally) that have done actual Iraqi police training is our (AF) Security Police. I assume they're qualified to teach it because that's what they do.
Posts: 1156 | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Absent the command structure that understands policing, turning over training to police within the unit is probably not a very good idea.
The fact they are doing it anyway is not proof of anything.
airman4, please try not to read more into my statements than I put there. I do not have antipathy toward the US armed forces. I just don't like when they are used for jobs they aren't equipped to do. I am unconvinced that they are equipped to do things like run prisons, for example, even though many of the people assigned to that duty came out of various correctional departments in the states. Again, without a command structure that understands how to manage such an operation, having people in the ranks with experience is no guarantee of success.
Sorry.
That doesn't mean I don't see honor in our troops and the sacrifices they are making.
I predict the military will issue its own report soon detailing how certain of the jobs it was assigned were not appropriate. There has been such a report after every conflict/war in my lifetime (at least the ones I can remember.
I don't see how this time will be any different.
I wish we would learn this lesson and stop asking the military to perform jobs they can't perform well.
Posts: 300 | Registered: Dec 2002
| IP: Logged |
quote: The only people I know (personally) that have done actual Iraqi police training is our (AF) Security Police. I assume they're qualified to teach it because that's what they do.
I think confusing the military's "Security Police" with a civilian police force is a good example of the problem. In fact, even if every single member of the MPs had actually been a civilian cop in their previous life, the nature of the mission is different enough that I would still be reluctant to consider their roles at all equivalent.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
Wow. The usual suspects. It's remarkable how similar the tactics being used against someone disagreeable. I'm glad I read this thread. A real eye opener. What did you get banned for, CB?
Posts: 1286 | Registered: Dec 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
When was Counter Bean banned? Never... If it happens it will most likely be for not according the Islamic political party the status of a religion at some point.
Posts: 231 | Registered: Feb 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote: The only people I know (personally) that have done actual Iraqi police training is our (AF) Security Police. I assume they're qualified to teach it because that's what they do.
I think confusing the military's "Security Police" with a civilian police force is a good example of the problem. In fact, even if every single member of the MPs had actually been a civilian cop in their previous life, the nature of the mission is different enough that I would still be reluctant to consider their roles at all equivalent.
I recognize the difference between a civilian police force and a military one. But it's not as large a difference as people seem to think. Especially in Iraq, where I imagine (I do not have any firsthand knowledge here) that their police are more paramilitary than our traditional version of a police force anyway.
Understanding that this could be exactly what some people think is wrong, I still think it's better than not having police at all.
Posts: 1156 | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Wow. The usual suspects. It's remarkable how similar the tactics being used against someone disagreeable. I'm glad I read this thread. A real eye opener. What did you get banned for, CB?
What's remarkable is that you haven't gone back to the thread you started, and actually replied to the kinds of questions and criticisms you claimed to want, chicken.
No, we haven't forgotten about that Buck-buck-bckaaaaa!
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
The major problems with preparing their police force haven't, as I understand, been with the quality of the policework training, but with the quality of their supplies, infrastructure, organization, and administration.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
| IP: Logged |
quote:Wow. The usual suspects. It's remarkable how similar the tactics being used against someone disagreeable. I'm glad I read this thread. A real eye opener. What did you get banned for, CB?
What's remarkable is that you haven't gone back to the thread you started, and actually replied to the kinds of questions and criticisms you claimed to want, chicken.
No, we haven't forgotten about that Buck-buck-bckaaaaa!
I honestly don't know what you're talking about. I think you're in your own little world. But don't worry, you're not alone. Wait a minute...
But anyway, everytime I did answer the questions asked of me and responded to the challenges and criticisms, you and the others who are joining you here on this thread whose names are always popping up at every opportunity to show everyone else how much smarter you are than them, you would just barrel ahead like nothing was said because if you bothered to listen to anyone else you might realize that you're not as smart as you think, and that just would not do, would it?
So if you're so smart, why don't try and decipher the above sentence, and let me know what I just wrote. I keep getting stuck about half-way through.
Posts: 1286 | Registered: Dec 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
It is snobbery, the Left is driven by utopianism and elitism. It is ironic that in the history of Iraq, the Baath party started as the progressive party of the intellectual elite. They where the educated doctors and teachers and lawyers who knew what was best for everyone else. Then they realized that if they were ever going to go beyond high browed hot air they need men that were capable of violent action. So they pulled a thug off the streets and put him in a suit, their trained monkey. Until he gathered every thread of power from the secret police to the military into his hands and turned the Baath party into the blood bath party. The problem with our elites is that they have a vast infrastructure to prop up that self importance so they can drag us all a long way down before their idiocy puts them out of power. It is up to those who really remember, conservatives who do not put their faith in every new fad notion that comes along, men who will take up arms to fight for their country, men and women who fight for every life as sacred and eat every cow because it isn't, those that believe in the second amendment as well as the first, it is up to us to protect the 'elites' and ourselves from the consequences of their inevitable blunders.
Posts: 231 | Registered: Feb 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:I honestly don't know what you're talking about. I think you're in your own little world. But don't worry, you're not alone. Wait a minute...
King of Men, at the very least, gave you what you asked for in that thread. You haven't been back since. As for the rest of your post, well, you may think what you like. However, in a thread you started, in a thread which you frequently complained no one was trying to make a real argument to your homophobic, sexist statements, you did not respond when someone actually did that.
Instead, the latest post in that thread is still not yours. So, I'll say it again: put up, or shut up.
Edit:
quote:But anyway, everytime I did answer the questions asked of me and responded to the challenges and criticisms, you and the others who are joining you here on this thread whose names are always popping up at every opportunity to show everyone else how much smarter you are than them, you would just barrel ahead like nothing was said because if you bothered to listen to anyone else you might realize that you're not as smart as you think, and that just would not do, would it?
Suffice it to say, I disagree about what actually happened in that thread. I'm quite comfortable in that disagreement not only because I read it a few times and thought about it, but because people whose opinion and reading comprehension abilities I respect agree with me.
quote:It is up to those who really remember, conservatives who do not put their faith in every new fad notion that comes along, men who will take up arms to fight for their country, men and women who fight for every life as sacred and eat every cow because it isn't, those that believe in the second amendment as well as the first, it is up to us to protect the 'elites' and ourselves from the consequences of their inevitable blunders.
Conservatives are not the only ones who take up arms in defense of their nation. Nor are liberals the only ones who inevitably make blunders.
Why are you still here? You cannot seriously think you're persuading anyone of anything in your favor. What value do you get out of hearing yourself talk so much?
Edit:
quote:It is snobbery, the Left is driven by utopianism and elitism.
quote:Why are you still here? You cannot seriously think you're persuading anyone of anything in your favor. What value do you get out of hearing yourself talk so much?
I'm not even convinced he believes what he's saying, let alone him having any expectations of winning others over to his side.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged |
So, the many liberals and Democrats I've spoken with in depth on these issues...they're lying? Or you read their minds? Or what, exactly?
Your opinions only work if you already buy into a whole slew of garbage in the first place. If your opinions were equated to a military, they'd be France Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged |
King of Men, at the very least, gave you what you asked for in that thread. You haven't been back since... Instead, the latest post in that thread is still not yours. So, I'll say it again: put up, or shut up.
Rakeesh, not that it matters, but I don't care for how you carry yourself. You need to come off of your pedastal. I have other things to do in life than spend all day on an internet forum. I have my periods where I do that, but that doesn't last too long because then I remember my real life, where things actually matter. I've been accused of being callous because of this attitude, but I think that anyone who puts more than a tiny amount of emotional involvment on an internet forum needs counseling. So that is why I hadn't been seen for a while.
But I agree with you about France. France sucks. Lyrhawn and Euripides don't like it that people don't like France. I don't like that people do like France. Let's all be happy. I'm gonna go talk about Narnia to someone now.
Edit: to include quote.
Posts: 1286 | Registered: Dec 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Actually, I did that for a reason. It's because I knew it would appeal to Bean Counter's sensibilities and he would get it. Not because I particularly hate France (although there are many times-most times-I am not very fond of that nation's government).
-------------
quote:Utopian... Believing in and seeking to create a perfect world of human goodness.
Elitism... Believing that one knows what's best for everyone else.
...Liberals
Are you telling me you don't claim to know what's best for everyone else, on nearly a constant basis, Bean Counter? You're at least as elitist as any liberal I've ever met.
Conservatives try and create the perfect world as well. So your little sound-bite comparison, unsurprisingly, falls flat on its ass.
------------
quote:Rakeesh, not that it matters, but I don't care for how you carry yourself. You need to come off of your pedastal. I have other things to do in life than spend all day on an internet forum. I have my periods where I do that, but that doesn't last too long because then I remember my real life, where things actually matter. I've been accused of being callous because of this attitude, but I think that anyone who puts more than a tiny amount of emotional involvment on an internet forum needs counseling. So that is why I hadn't been seen for a while.
Well, now I know I've 'won' this particular argument, because you've resorted to this Basically, you're calling me a loser because I spend too much time on teh intarwebs. You do this without knowing what I do for a living, how I do it, or even anything, really, about me, except that I think you acted like a jackass in that thread, and didn't do anything other than posture and insist no one was taking your arguments seriously-which some people were.
So, go back to your real life where things actually matter. Let yourself believe I am deeply emotionally involved in this argument, if you like. That would appear to be what you need to do to avoid going back to that thread.
Oh, and as for needing counseling based on putting more than a tiny amount of emotional involvement in an Internet forum? You really don't understand this place at all, Reshpeckobiggle.
So I don't buy your lame cop-out, chicken. I keep on this particular point because you're annoying, and because you were sexist and bigoted and constantly rude in that thread, no other reason, and because despite all your tough talk in that thread, you haven't yet gone back. You could have already, but you haven't. Put up or shut up. Although at this point I think it's perfectly clear you're not going to put up in that thread, rather you're going to let things the way they are and whine that people were rude to you.
posted
You have proved my point, for you, the liberal infection is so deep that you cannot conceive of anyone not sharing it. Now learn the shocking truth...
Conservatives do not believe in Utopia, we believe that man exists and will always exist in a 'fallen' state. This is just too say that we are born with a capacity for lust, vengeance, violence and envy that we must learn to control. Conservatives believe that each person must strive to master that state, many say this should be done by following the example of Christ, but we always know that the evil is there. No Utopia of human goodness is possible because human goodness is not and cannot be universal, Conservatives believe in 'managing chaos' or making the best of a bad situation and fixing what can be fixed. A hard nosed practical multi-layered approach to creating temporary bubbles of goodness and security were even liberals can flourish. (like America)
Conservatives do not think for other people, we think for ourselves and expect responsible thought and action from those around us. We do not control others, we expect civilized behavior from them and punish them if it does not arise. Conservatives expect a minimum of human decency to qualify for membership to society, beyond that we leave people alone. Elitism is all about scoring points in meaningless battles, artificial games that feed self importance, the fact that I do frequently score points in the elitist games just means I take personal pleasure in playing them from time to time, always to puncture self importance, if I am good at it imagine how much better I am at things I take seriously.
Posts: 231 | Registered: Feb 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:You have proved my point, for you, the liberal infection is so deep that you cannot conceive of anyone not sharing it. Now learn the shocking truth...
I'm not a liberal. I'm a registered Independant, and I've voted for Republicans, Democrats, liberals and conservatives in my life.
You as usual have not proven anything except your own fundamental ignorance, and your lack of mind-reading capabilities, Bean Counter.
And you're also-as usual-ignoring what was actually said and instead addressing a point that was never made. I did not say that conservatives believe in a utopia. I said that conservatives, like liberals, work to create a perfect world.
quote:We do not control others, we expect civilized behavior from them and punish them if it does not arise.
That's actually control.
quote:...the fact that I do frequently score points in the elitist games just means I take personal pleasure in playing them from time to time, always to puncture self importance, if I am good at it imagine how much better I am at things I take seriously.
It must be fun to play games in which the referee, score keeper, and hell the commissioner of the league is...you. You're not scoring points. I can't remember the last time you did score a point outside of your own imagination. You're not welcome here, you're not saying anything that hasn't been heard already, so why are you around? Why do you enjoy it?
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged |
Printer-friendly view of this topic
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Buck-buck-bckaaaaa!
