posted
pfresh... your story hit me with a thud. I think we have SO much in common, though many differences as well.
I, like you, am struggling with finding a "church". I was raised Roman Catholic, and still feel about Catholicism the same way many Jews feel about Judiasm. I know that technically it's not the same, but if you grew up where I did, you'd understand how really... it is. I wasn't just baptized Catholic, I was BORN Catholic... more specifically I was born POLISH Catholic.
I started finding problems with it in elementary school. Things the church would say just wouldn't sit well with me, but I was seriously conflicted. I saw logical flaws, but was so thuroughly rebuked when I mentioned them that I bit my tongue most of the time. Then, when I was 11 I had to get confirmed. I made the decision that I WOULD be a good Catholic... during confirmation your sins are wiped clean, just like in baptism, and I was DETERMINED to make a new start to my life. Before we'd even gotten to the end of the ceremony, I'd already had thoughts of being mean to my brothers, and I despaired. I was convinced I was worthless in God's eyes. I couldn't even last a whole fifteen minutes without sinning. Things only got worse as time went on. In Jr. High I was teased, called names, pushed, spit on, and any number of things because I expressed the belief that I thought some type of evolution was likely. At fifteen I left home for college, and my first week there I had a brush with... I know it sounds silly, but a brush with an angel. I was homesick, and scared, and I prayed to God to send me a hug, and... then he did... It was the most wonderful feeling... but after feeling the pure goodness of God, I truly could not reconcile myself to Christianity. Christianity seemed so full of darkness, that I could not see God's willingness for it.
I spent six years like that, praying often, but alone. Hating the very idea of a "Christian" God. Then I heard a son a friend of a friend had written, and somehow it made things sorta "snap" inside my head. I realized that Christianity WAS a valid expression of God's will. I don't know how to explain it really, it just was. I still had problems though. For one thing, I still could not reconcile myself to Catholic doctrine. For another, even though I found a non-denominational church I really liked, I still faced traumatic criticism for my interpretations of history and the bible. Actually, criticism isn't even the right word, crticism implies they listened to my ideas and gave thoughtful critiques to them. It's more just to say that I was looked at like I was a witch!!! During this time, I was still in very faithful contact with God through prayer, and he sustained me.
He also led me to my ex-husband. I still have trouble really understanding this part, because it seems like a place God led me to should have had a fairy tale ending, but... this is one of those things I'm still trying to "rationalize". Still, I'm certain it was God's presence, there was just TOO Much prayer, too much direct leading, and too many good results for anything else. Through listening to God's instructions, I helped save my step daughters life, and conceived my son, Azriel (means help of God). Unfortunately, my ex started acting strange, and eventually left me and took up real witch craft (deamons, and blood spells, and all of it).
During this time I was also a heavy OSC reader. I absolutely ADORED the Homecomming series. I felt, when I was reading it, that there was just SO much truth involved in the things it revealed. I was still looking for a church though, and found a presbyterian one I was semi-happy with, but not truly content. I never even considered mornonism, because I had had two friends convert in college, and most of the propaganda struck me as really hoke. I was facing major challenges, because now that my ex had left, I had no reason to not get my son baptized catholic. In fact, since we were now living back in my home town, there is a termendous reason TO baptize him. It's been two years, and I still haven't. The clock is counting down though, if I want to baptize him as an "infant" I must before he turns five. Even more important, he's eligible for Bible School this summer... I'm raising him in an area where being Catholic is critically important to fitting in. If he's not Catholic, there has to be at least a good reason why. The problem is, I am terrified of doing it. I hate the idea of going to a priest and lying my way through an interview to convince him I want my son baptized for the "right" reasons, and made sick at the thought of standing on the altar in and giving oaths in front of God that I don't believe in. Most of the oaths I can twist and "rationalize" in my mind to mean something other than the intended meaning, but it still feels wrong. On the other hand, I don't know that I can force my son to face his childhood with nothing more than his mother's confusion to protect him from the criticizing taunts of the other children.
Then, around a year ago, I read "Woman of Destiny" now known as "Saints". There is a part in there where Charlie is reading the Book of Mormon and summarizing it. I recognized that it was the SAME story as the Homecomming series, and my stomach started turning in knots. I've got a book of mormon on my bookshelf because my parents were going to throw it away, and I just thought it was WRONG to throw any book away. I started reading it, I really haven't made it more than a couple dozen pages in, but enough to recognize the story. The problem is, the book of Mormon reads like some of the WORST parts of the King James bible. I can understand the words, but I'm not sure I'm really catching the flow of what it's trying to say, so it's been hard for me to get any relevant information from. I've made requests through the official LDS web site to talk to someone, and even showed up at an LDS church one sunday, but no one there even asked my name. I've got alot of doctrinal things that I seem to find conflicting information on and I would have wanted answers to, but every time I pray about it, I get a feeling like God wants me to find out more. Of course, I don't know if he wants me to find out more because he wants me to convert, or so that I can just get the idea out of my head, but it is frustrating when I can't.
Lately though, I just have not had the energy to pursue any of it very much. I'm trying to build up my courage to phone the priest, and so I've been trying to focus on NOT believing anything at the moment that seriously conflicts with Catholic dogma. I know it's a mind game I'm playing with myself, and I don't feel good about it, but... there I am.
Posts: 1321 | Registered: Jun 2006
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posted
If I didn't want to meet people, I wouldn't be talking about joining a church and everything. It's just there are things I am willing to do/would like to do/am comfortable doing, and there are things I am not.
I'm not going to delete this thread since I know that's frowned upon here. I don't believe I'm going to post in it anymore though. This went from a discussion of religion and such to something else. I'd rather remove myself from it than get further into argument.
Posts: 1960 | Registered: May 2005
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quote: If I joined the Mormon church, I think it would cause a strong division between me and them. While my mother would probably eventually accept it and tolerate it, I think she would be disappointed and maybe even angry for a period (and I'm not sure how long that period would last).
We have a family friend who was raised Catholic. She married an LDS man and converted. They have been LDS for years and years. He has done the Bishop and Stake President thing, and their family is happier for that.
I was surprised one day at what she said when we visited a family reunion (of sorts) at a park. Everyone there was LDS, happy, well groomed, and got along. There just wasn't that many people there.
F. looked over at us and said, "You know, the church destroys families." Shocked (because she is such a good Mormon) I asked why.
She said in her Catholic family everyone came to outings and gatherings. The ex cons, the drinkers (who brought alcohol), the pious, EVERYONE. The church, she explained, does a really good job of putting together families on paper, but the tolerance of none Mormon family members with different values...is different then Catholicism.
At their party there were family who were too embarrassed to show up, too "flawed," or who were not on speaking terms with each other--about religion.
I have certainly seen that in the Mormon Church. I just don't know how to compare it to non-Mormons. My feeling is if membership makes you happy, go for it. Your family will adjust. I think you should focus on whether church membership will affect how you interact with your family, not how they will interact with you.
If they ridicule you, be patient, bear it, and go on. They are probably worried the religion will affect you adversely. They might think it will interfere with the relationship you have with them. If it doesn't then they should come around.
I have seen enthusiastic new converts who try to convert and fix their family, and it drives a wedge in the relationship.
If they judge you solely on your religion, then the problems are deeper then what religion you belong to.
quote: I find it hard to make a decision that will alter my life drastically when I still have some doubts.
I see two main reasons to join the church. 1: You believe it is true. 2: You believe in the lifestyle.
If you join the church because of 1, then you HAVE to accept Joseph saw God, you have to accept the Book of Mormon is authentic, and you HAVE TO ACCEPT and believe in restored Priesthood Authority. Without priesthood authority restored to Joseph and invested in 15 men, the church falls apart.
If you need to do mental gymnastics to join because of reason 1, then you’re just fooling yourself.
If you join the church because of 2, then there are plenty of good reasons to go to church. It is one of the most effective social networks I can think of. Mormonism is a lifestyle as well as a belief. If you get something out of the lifestyle, then the mental gymnastics can be worth it.
Lots of people go to church, pay their tithing, go to the temple, and never try to ponder or analyze the church too deep. What's the point? They are happy.
If you think you will be too, why not join? It's not like you can't walk away.
quote: I see myself as extremely flawed. I see myself doing things that (even though they are super minor) bad/wrong. I feel like I should be so much better in order to be worthy of a place in the religion.
That should never be a reason to dismiss religion. Religion at its best accepts flawed people, is supportive, and if you are Christian, provides a forgiving Savior that loves and accepts you. It is about love, repentance, family, acceptance, and self-improvement; it is not about meeting a social image.
One of my favorite scriptures talks about how God does not give us the spirit of fear, but of love and a strong mind. That is a standard I try to live my life by.
Good luck on your quest.
Posts: 2445 | Registered: Oct 2004
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quote: At their party there were family who were too embarrassed to show up, too "flawed," or who were not on speaking terms with each other--about religion.
posted
pfresh, I know you said you weren't going to post but maybe you're still reading? Maybe you ought to keep a journal (if you're not already). Sometimes having a record of my feelings makes it easier/clearer to make decisions when looking back and reflecting upon my past experiences. Just a thought. Good luck!
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quote:Originally posted by pfresh85: If I didn't want to meet people, I wouldn't be talking about joining a church and everything. It's just there are things I am willing to do/would like to do/am comfortable doing, and there are things I am not.
I'm not going to delete this thread since I know that's frowned upon here. I don't believe I'm going to post in it anymore though. This went from a discussion of religion and such to something else. I'd rather remove myself from it than get further into argument.
pfresh, I really don't see any argument going on here. I wasn't trying to be hostile. I'm saying that based on how I (and as I see, at least on eother person) am reading your tone and your responses to people's suggestions here, you really don't want to meet new people. Joining a church as a way too meet people is a generally bad idea, and on top of that it can be a bit of a cop-out. You might end up expecting the church to do the "filtering" for you, and you might expect the church to provide you with friends. That's a recipe for disaster.
quote: You might end up expecting the church to do the "filtering" for you, and you might expect the church to provide you with friends. That's a recipe for disaster.
Why? As I became an adult I realized that there were very few places I could meet people. Work. Chuch. Bar.
I am not a bar man or a church man (anymore). I guess I can get involved in community projects of hobbies that other people share, but I am just so busy.
I could see how church would be a good place to find friends--as long as you are not expecting the church to provide friends.
Posts: 2445 | Registered: Oct 2004
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quote: If you join the church because of 2, then there are plenty of good reasons to go to church. It is one of the most effective social networks I can think of. Mormonism is a lifestyle as well as a belief. If you get something out of the lifestyle, then the mental gymnastics can be worth it.
I question the integrity of this choice.
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Aug 2002
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I question it too; however, I have witnessed (and talked with) many people don't have a testimony but still get satisfaction in the church.
Some are in it for family, some for business and community standing (I am in Utah!), some are in it for their spouse, some are in it to find a spouse. They claim to be happy, they look happy, and so I won't question their reasons.
Who is anyone to judge their integrity? If it works for them, it works. Religion is personal.
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posted
My real point is that pfresh seems to reject any way of meeting friends that is not related to the church, which to me means he isn't willing to put that much effort into it. After all, churches generally welcome new people and put a lot of work into trying to make them feel comfortable, which takes a great deal of the burden of social interaction or the search for friends off his shoulders. To me, it also means that his motivations for interest in the church are very heavily influenced by his desire for friends, which absolutely seems to me to have serious disaster potential.
I'm not trying to sound harsh, and I'm sorry if it's coming across that way. I just worry that he's going to join the church with the wrong motivations and end up just as discouraged and possibly close himself down to what could be a really good faith-type move for him.
quote: I have witnessed (and talked with) many people don't have a testimony but still get satisfaction in the church.
I think that people who are raised Mormon have that as the "default truth" so to say. Even if they don't have much of a testimony of it, it's still something they more or less are on board with. I think this is very different from converting to a religion without believing in it.
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Aug 2002
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posted
I've found the best way to meet new people is do things you enjoy doing. Then you tend to meet people with similar interests. Whatever it is you like to do, there are groups out there who do it too. Check web pages for your local area, Craigslist, general interest websites, the phone book. Great way to get out, be active, do something fun, and meet cool people with whom you have something to talk about.
Posts: 3950 | Registered: Mar 2006
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I just wanted to chime in and say that I appreciate the courtesy that you extend to the LDS church in every discussion I've seen that you participate in about it. I know you are a former member, and have both doctrinal and social differences with the church, but your good attitude and polite phrasing make worlds of difference in how well your points are taken.
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