posted
Would you also say that they experience pain, but not the conscious awareness of pain, rivka, or do you maintain that they don't have pain receptors (ie do you agree with MightyCow)?
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posted
I believe they do experience pain. They have nervous systems, after all. What good are slugs? Great good. They're part of nature's recycling system, just like earthworms. They break stuff down into soil. They are also, as pointed out, important as prey to toads and other critters.
Mosquitoes are actually very important. The males of many species are crucial to the pollination of wildflowers. The insects in all their forms are an irreplaceable part of the food chain. Also, they keep us in the here-and-now, instead of in our heads all the time. They act as guardians of the woods and wetlands, making sure that the people who enter these habitats REALLY want to be there.
Fleas are more troublesome, but as the Insect Advocate, I have to find something to love about them. Hmm... They're indestructible, which is inspiring to prisoners of conscience.
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quote:Originally posted by Jenny Gardener: What good are slugs? Great good...Mosquitoes are actually very important...The insects in all their forms are an irreplaceable part of the food chain...Fleas are...indestructible, which is inspiring to prisoners of conscience.
OK, I'll grant you those, but what about the guy in the cinema who rips your ticket in half?
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posted
Noemon, I am not aware of any evidence that slugs have pain receptors.
Actually, let me correct the phrasing on that. While giant sea slugs (which are considerably more complex than garden slugs) show some evidence of simple pain receptors, I don't believe the same is true for their simpler gardening cousins.
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Rivka, why are you so convinced that slugs don't feel? They're tough, true, but having one's fluids chemically dissolved by salt CAN'T feel good, even to a slug.
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posted
Tante, ticket tearers are actually a larval form of theater employee. After hatching from their soft, gelatinous eggs (better known to the layman as Jujubees) they gorge themselves on the popcorn produced in mass quantities by specialized worker employees.
Their bodyweight doubles every four hours or so, and soon they achieve a height of anywhere from 5 to 6 feet, their soft skin hardening into something closely resembling slacks and a cheap blazer. When this hardening is complete, they move instinctually to podiums situated around the theater and proceed to tear tickets. While the activity seems purposeful, it is believed that it is an entirely instinctive, reflexive behavior (in fact, it is believed that ticket tearers do not even possess what you or I would consider consciousness, and it is a well known fact that they are incapable of feeling pain)--nothing more than a mechanical response to the stimulus of theater attendees filing past with outstretched tickets.
Life as a ticket taker is a dangerous thing. Many species of theater employee are cannibalistic, and it isn't uncommon for ticket tearers to account for upwards of 60% of adult theater employees' caloric intake. The strongest, quickest ticket takers survive, however, retreating to break rooms, projection booths, and storage closets to pupate.
The vast majority of former ticket takers emerge from their pupal stage as specialized snack counter employees, skilled from the moment of their emergence at popping popcorn, dispensing drinks, and tending pupal ticket takers. A smaller number become ticket vendor employees, a strange sessile imago form unlike anything else in the employee kingdom. An even smaller number emerge as projectionists. Though theaters seem to maintain a balance of these three worker types, the mechanism by which this is achieved is poorly understood. Many maintain that phermonal signals determine worker type, but others [Hodkin, Gupta et al] have found evidence that temperature in pupating chambers plays an important roll.
Better understood is the mechanism by which a tiny minority of ticket takers become managers. Snack counter employees tending the pupa will occasionally select one to feed popcorn coated in what is termed "royal butter". Pupa who consume this substance invariably emerge as managers. A theater can support a maximum of two of this specialized worker type, with the senior functioning as a full fledged manager and the junior functioning as its assistant (it is important to note that theater employees of this type appear to possess at least rudimentary intelligence, with assistant managers showing limited social learning abilities).
As long as the existing senior manager is strong, all is well; the theater remains in equilibrium, functioning smoothly. If the manager becomes weak, however, supersedure occurs. Manager pheremones throughout the hive decrease, and the entire hive functions less efficiently. At this point the assistant manager begins producing manager pheremones of his own, and the two managers battle for control of the theater. This almost always results in death for the weakened senior manager.
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Next time you're in the theatre and they rip your ticket in half scream "I JUST PAID TEN BUCKS FOR THAT AND YOU RIPPED IT IN HALF!" then ask to see his manager...
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Rivka, how can you tell if an animal has pain receptors? Do the nerve endings look visibly different under a microscope?
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quote:Better understood is the mechanism by which a tiny minority of ticket takers become managers. Snack counter employees tending the pupa will occasionally select one to feed popcorn coated in what is termed "royal butter". Pupa who consume this substance invariably emerge as managers. A theater can support a maximum of two of this specialized worker type ...
... and here is where I lost it.
The other library patrons thank you, Noemon, for the snorting sounds of unrepressed laughter.
quote:Rivka, how can you tell if an animal has pain receptors? Do the nerve endings look visibly different under a microscope?
I don't know how much of this is semantics (i.e., no brain = no pain, by definition?), but I'd think the best way to characterize receptors would be by neurotransmitters produced and used at the synapse. This seems to be how it is most commonly done in the human organism, at least.
It has been a long time since my last invertebrate zoology course, but I think the neurotransmitters are the same basic chemicals as for human synapses. This would take some tracking down to be sure, though.
Again, it isn't necessaarily a matter of categorizing the type of receptor, I'd think. A good deal of the opposition to attribution of pain seems to be more centered on the processing of stimuli (and the limits thereof) rather than the reception of the stimuli. Kind of like how a kneejerk reflex is processed only at the spinal cord level, so there is no consciousness involved in the action. (Of course, there is awareness after the fact, but if a person were brain-damaged to the extent of no cortical functioning, basic reflexes could be preserved without conscious interpretation of them afterward.)
However, I have an icky feeling in my tummy at the thought of inducing anything that even looks like pain in any responsive creature, at least without good cause to do so. Taking pleasure in it would make me even more squeamy.
(For what it's worth, I cried at HAL's death. Dave calls it a monster story, while I insist it is a tragedy. But my marriage is strong enough to withstand such grave vagaries in opinion. *smile)
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Tante, for the shere artistry of his post, I think he may have won Post Of The Day. Probably Of The Week as well.
Addited: Regarding pain receptors and the salt treatment for slugs, it's their reaction that leads me to believe it is wrong to salt slugs. It *looks* like torture, and therefore makes me feel like I am the torturer. I don't want to grow callous to the pain of other creatures even if that creature isn't in actual pain but just looks like it. Psychologically, it's too damaging to me, regardless of what it does to my slime trailing victim. (written somewhat tongue in cheek... )
Word of advice for anyone thinking of painting their garage doors a dark color: rethink this. The dark color contrasts against the slime trails and makes it obvious you aren't a very good housekeeper.
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posted
Encouraging children to take pleasure in the apparent suffering of ANY creature, to me, borders on child abuse.
When I was around six years old, at some sort of party I was at, an adult gave us kids salt shakers and encouraged us to use them on the slugs in his garden.
Most of the kids took great joy in inflicting (what at least appeared to be to us kids) massive amounts of suffering on these creatures. I tried it on one, and watching the pain I caused seared me to my very soul. I caused that pain. And for what? My amusement. The thought sickened me. The fact that it did not even phase any of the other children strikes me as being very sad.
Since that day I have never intentionally inflicted suffering on any creature, great or small. I've killed plenty of insects and the like, but doing so has never brought me pleasure.
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posted
Thanks guys--it was fun visualizing all of that as I was making it up.
CT, the distinction you're making between the processing rather that the reception of stimuli is an important one, I think. That way of phrasing it makes more sense to me than other explanations of the same thing that I've heard.
I'm not sure what I think of the idea of slugs possessing no consciousness whatsoever. I understand that they don't have a brain. Do they have ganglia? I assume that they must, right? I've been looking around for some anatomical drawings of slugs, but all I'm finding are external anatomy sketches and information on sea slugs (which, while fascinating, isn't what I'm after right now).
In any case, I agree with CT that the prospect of doing something that appears to cause unnecessary pain squicks me out, and that the idea of taking pleasure in doing something that appears to cause unnecessary pain squicks me out further.
When I was growing up there was a kid who lived near me who enjoyed doing this sort of thing. I remember trying to stop him from dousing a turtle with gas and setting it on fire, once (I convinced him that it would be more fun to put a spot of paint on its shell and see if we ever saw it again). I don't see a whole lot of difference between someone doing that and salting a slug, really. They're both motivated by the same mix of curiosity and sadism.
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romany, do you have lavender in your gardens? We planted a lavendar variation my ex-step-mother-in-law gave me at our old house and it was incredibly invasive. We were not able to get it under control by the time we moved, though we pulled every bit out we could find once we realized how invasive it was. It just kept coming up. Do you know if all lavender is invasive, or was it just the one we happened to plant? I would like to try that, I'm just afraid we'll end up with lavender everywhere. Posts: 5948 | Registered: Jun 2001
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My mom has lavender in her garden and it doesn't invade anything. Rosemary, on the other hand...
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Xavier: It's certainly noble and good to avoid inflicting unnecessary pain. I would never encourage or permit someone to torture a dog or kick a cat. I think it's possible to have an unreasonable amount of empathy for what are essentially unfeeling creatures.
I would argue that encouraging children to salt slugs or swat flies is a far, far cry from teaching them to enjoy the suffering of others. To say that someone is abusing a child by having them salt a slug is the type of overstatement that, in my mind, trivializes real child abuse.
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quote:I would argue that encouraging children to salt slugs or swat flies is a far, far cry from teaching them to enjoy the suffering of others. To say that someone is abusing a child by having them salt a slug is the type of overstatement that, in my mind, trivializes real child abuse.
Call them unfeeling if you want, but even if they are, kids don't know this. They don't know any different from torturing a slug, frog, turtle, mouse, squirrel, cow... The only difference a child knows is the "cuteness" of the potential tortured animal. Slugs are on the extreme low end of the cuteness scale, which is why its okay for them.
Its teaching a child to take pleasure in causing suffering, no matter how you slice it. I'd equate that with teaching your child to hate black people in the amount of harm it causes your child, both of which I would classify as "bordering on child abuse".
Edit: Some of the neighborhood kids would take firecrackers, stick them in frogs and snakes, and then light them. Is that any different? If so, why? Does the degree with which a creature's nervous system is developed make the difference? If so, do you see how the children do not know that slugs process pain any different from frogs, and so doing both causes them the same amount of psychological harm? At what point is torturing a creature okay? Would it be okay to do to a fish? A frog? A mouse?
quote:I would argue that encouraging children to salt slugs or swat flies
It's worth noting that these two things aren't really equivalent. Swatting flies kills them instantly, whereas salting a slug results in a slow and horrible death that, in a creature possessing consciousness, would be agonizingly painful. It might be more accurate to equate the salting of slugs with pulling the wings off of flies, in terms of cruelty.
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posted
I agree with jeniwren and Xavier; the fact that the slugs certainly appear to be writhing in pain (even though I have been told that this is simply a series of chemical reactions, and works just as well if you kill the slug first) is good enough reason not to encourage kids to salt 'em. Nor do I have any interest in doing so myself.
And Noemon, that is one of the funniest things I have ever read. Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote: Mosquitoes are actually very important. The males of many species are crucial to the pollination of wildflowers.
I just want to point out that both male AND female mosquitoes also feed on the nectar of plants, thus helping with pollinization. (according to my bug book) Females do the blood thing as well, but not to exclusion, they also help in that pollination thing.
So, I'll admit they do have a good purpose -- something besides the bad things they are most known for like spreading disease and causing uncomfortable red bumps.
quote:Originally posted by Xavier: Its teaching a child to take pleasure in causing suffering, no matter how you slice it. I'd equate that with teaching your child to hate black people in the amount of harm it causes your child, both of which I would classify as "bordering on child abuse".
This is exactly the kind of thinking that I find abhorrent. To directly equate killing a garden pest with racism is distasteful to me. Are farmers genocidal killers because they commonly kill millions of insects in their fields?
This type of thinking trivializes human suffering and doing harm to another person or whole groups of people by putting it in the same category as killing a slug. It's sensational, it's false, and it's illogical.
The difference between the two is such a vast gulf that if you can with any intellectual honesty use the two as a comparison, I cannot believe that you have any concept of the real cruelty, hate, and suffering that humans endure at the hand of their fellow humans. Ask someone who's been beaten or been in fear of their lives if their tormentors were as bad those evil four year old slug killers.
People don't seem to have a problem with drowning slugs, or poisoning them. Do you imagine that these are fun ways for a slug to die? Salting a slug kills it in a matter of seconds, because it oozes slime and shrivels, it is easy to imagine it writing in pain, when in fact it is simply losing its moisture.
This type of thinking is what makes people blame video games and movies for violence instead of facing the real issues that cause someone to hate. Pretending that allowing children to kill a slug is at all like abusing them or teaching racism makes a joke of real abuse and real hate.
You're intentionally ignoring real issues by focusing so much of your attention on trivial issues. It is nothing more than an excuse to be outraged over something meaningless instead of considering the real, difficult issues that matter. I can't stop you from believing what you like, but I'll have not part in it.
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jeni, we do have leavender, and it has not proven invasive. I couldn't tell you what kind off the top of my head, but it's been there for years, and it's stayed in it's place.
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quote:Originally posted by Xavier: Encouraging children to take pleasure in the apparent suffering of ANY creature, to me, borders on child abuse.
When I was around six years old, at some sort of party I was at, an adult gave us kids salt shakers and encouraged us to use them on the slugs in his garden.
I don't know whether or not that is abuse, but it is definitely assault.
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quote:This is exactly the kind of thinking that I find abhorrent. To directly equate killing a garden pest with racism is distasteful to me. Are farmers genocidal killers because they commonly kill millions of insects in their fields?
My explanations above have clearly done no good in describing why I feel how I do, if this is what you claim I was doing. The fact that you ignored the other 90% of my post should probably set off warning flags for me not to bother replying, but I feel the need to anyway.
I'll try one last time to sum it up: Its encouraging children to take pleasure in causing and then watching suffering.
A farmer on the field killing pests is not doing anything even similar to that, and if you can't see that, we have nothing more to talk about. We have a failure to communicate.
If the farmer was attempting to think of the most horrible way to kill those pests, and then takes great pleasure in watching those pests die in a painful way, then that would be similar. I would think that farmer has some pretty serious emotional issues if that was the case.
Killing should never be fun. When its necessary, you do it, but it should never bring you pleasure. The same is true for causing suffering, no matter how ugly or annoying that creature is.
I would have no objection if an adult, in a utilitarian way, asked children to help him clear his garden of slugs, by whatever method the adult chose. The children should see it as a chore, not as a rocking good time. The adult shouldn't present it as a fun thing to do. Say you ask children to help you clear your garden of slugs, and give them salt shakers. The children should then salt a slug, and immediately move on to the next one.
They should not wait and watch the slug appear to die in a slow, horrible and apparently painful manner, and then laugh and high five eachother before racing on to the next one.
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I have salted slugs only once, because before I started it seemed like a less-disgusting way to kill them than squishing them, since I wouldn't have to actually touch them. But then I was absolutely appalled by the process, and I felt horribly guilty over my willingly putting another creature through what looked like a tortuous death. I think I was about ten at the time.
If an adult had encouraged me to salt a slug rather than getting rid of it by more humane means, I would have either lost respect for said adult, or grown up extremely warped and probably less compassionate for all living creatures, including humans.
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