posted
Timothy Zahn's Heir to the Empire trilogy, and Hand of Thrawn books were amazing. I haven't really read any other Starwars universe books besides those; but MAN! They were such good books... I felt like I got to know Luke as Luke, and not as "Mark Hamill the whiny farm boy who cracks me up whenever I watch him get his hand cut off".
Thrawn to me was really the only protagonist that could do anything, and the only reason the republic had any problems. He was the character in the plot that kept me hooked, so I thought that the series lost quite a bit of thunder with the Hand of Thrawn books, even though they were still wonderful pieces of fiction.
My favorite character was probably that cool guy.... I can't think of his name right now. I think he was the head smuggler guy or something (possibly the guy that had trees in his house, and crazy animal dog-like things for pets?).
Posts: 879 | Registered: Apr 2005
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And the pets were Vornskrs. Drang and Sturm I think (or Durm and Strang, I always get that mixed up). That was on Myrkyr, and the trees were for the ysalamiri.
Talon and Mara Jade made up a lot of what I liked about those books. But Thrawn made it really worthwhile.
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Useless Star Wars history is one of my many skills, that and useless Lord of the Rings history.
I know entirely too much about things that don't really matter. But I'm afraid they'll take away my "geek card" if I forget.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
Outbound Flight was a pretty good book. I wouldn't place it on the same level as Heir to the Empire and Hand of Thrawn series, but that's possibly because its scope is quite a bit smaller than either of those series-it is just one book, after all.
It has a lot of story about Thrawn, Car'das, Doriana. He's a figure many more 'casual' Star Wars fans may never have heard of, he was an important aid to both Chancellor Palpatine and Darth Sidious-at the time, the very clever but not clever enough Kinman Doriana is publicly an assistant to Palpatine, but privately a spy, agitator, assassin, and general trouble-maker for Darth Sidious. It's uncertain whether or not he ever gets the full information on that score.
It also has quite a lot about Jorus C'baoth and Lorana Jinzler, two other characters from previous Zahn books.
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SPOILERS
- - - - - - - - - Perhaps because of its pretty narrow scope, I did not learn as much about Thrawn as I would've liked. In fact, I learned almost nothing about Thrawn I didn't already know. His tactical, strategic, and political genius are explored in more depth and they're illustrated even better because of the smaller forces at his disposal...but then, we already knew he possessed those abilities.
If you're looking to find out why exactly Thrawn ditched the Chiss Ascendancy and signed on with the Empire (while of course still maintaining contacts and building forces inside Chiss Ascendancy space), you're not going to find out in this book.
All you learn is that somehow, Darth Sidious has had visions of an enemy at this point known only as the Far Outsiders-the Yuuzhan Vong. They're coming, they're using organic 'technology', and they're going to kick our asses if we're not ready is the substance of these visions. Whether or not he has any concrete proof is uncertain, but it's pretty clear he knows they're coming from the Force-which is more than a little peculiar in and of itself, since the YV aren't in that particular spectrum. Possibly this is due to Vergere's presence among them, but it's never sorted out.
You also learn that the Chiss Ascendancy and Thrawn know of the YV, too. Apparently they've been on the very outer edges of the galaxy, which is actually inside Chiss Ascendancy space, and the Chiss have fought with them before and won a victory-but they're very concerned with the imminent invasion, obviously.
This at least gives us a reason why Thrawn would be interested in talking to Darth Sidious-and for a man like Thrawn, it wouldn't take very long at all to deduce that Palpatine and Sidious are one and the same. When that discovery was made is unclear also.
The part that I wish had been explored was why Thrawn, written to be a tactical and strategic genius who was frequently quite merciful but also capable of astounding ruthlessness when it comes to protecting his people, would sign on with Palpatine and stick with him for so long.
Thrawn is a man who unlike the majority of Chiss, actually cares about the suffering of the little people getting stomped underfoot by conquerors and slavers just outside their borders. So why would he sign on the dotted line with a planet-killer like Palpatine?
I think it's clear from new insights in this book that he would if it were a choice between that and defeat by the YV. But where he comes to that conclusion, or if he has a change of heart, remain to be seen.
Jorus C'baoth was a bit more straightforward than I expected. Arrogant, smug, condescending, intimidating, and bigoted right from the very start, I thought there would be much more of a "descent into madness" story for him. C'baoth has had visions of the YV as well, but it's uncertain whether or not they're as detailed as Sidious's-who, by the way, C'baoth rejects outright as an fraud. "All the Sith are dead, this 'Sidious' is clearly an imposter."
Maybe it was this vision of the future YV wars that drove him nuts, but he had "dark side" written all over him from the very beginning. I personally think Zahn could've done more with illustrating the depth of trouble the Jedi Council was in, that it let a Jedi Master who was eager to use fear as a tool for motivation, keep running around and training Padawans.
Interestingly, Thrawn had direct personal dealings with Jorus C'baoth. Thrawn told Outbound Flight, "You cannot come through here. You must turn around and head back to the Republic...or at least turn around and head a long ways away from Chiss Ascendancy space." C'baoth, by now more than a little power-mad, says, "No," and Thrawn proceeds to thrash him easily.
But then C'baoth gets a video and audio communication link with Thrawn, and goes Vader-choke on his ass. Thrawn's audacity, cunning, and brilliance are thus further illustrated much later when he confronts the cloned C'baoth-it wasn't such an insight for Thrawn to know it was a clone after all
However the good news implied in all my geeking out these past few paragraphs is that it means that there's some more story with Thrawn out there waiting to be told. Whether or not Zahn will tell it remains to be seen, but there are still some major gaps-years worth-that haven't been explored, and hopefully they will be, by Zahn.
I have to agree with all your observations, Rakeesh. It was a great story. But you can tell it is only the tip of the iceberg. In some ways, Thrawn's alliance and rise in the newly formed empire should parallel Sidious' creation and continued manipulation of the same empire. Because, as you pointed out, up to now, Thrawn is still a merciful man. His use of force and desire for order is to create the stable society necessary to fend off any threats, not just the Yuzhon Vong. Sidious, as much as he pontificates about order and peace, is only out for power and revenge. There's no sense of sacrifice- that he's doing it for the people, in the long run. Perhaps that's the lie he tells himself. But he doesn't seem that self deluded or willing to lie to himself. He accepts himself and his beliefs. The strongest should have the power and that is the way of it. No need for moralizing or explaining it away- unlike Thrawn.
So why does Thrawn follow him? The lesser of two evils? Is the Yuzhan Vong that much of a threat that Palpatine and his new order is the lesser evil? Does Thrawn truly know how painful the Vong war will be (and ends up being)? And how does it stack against Sidious' wholely artificial Clone wars, and the subsequent rebellion. That's 23 years of war, folks, with some minor lulls no doubt, verses 10? from the Vong? Thrawn knows that there is no way the Chiss Ascendency is willing to create a galactic wide empire. But still, it's tough to rationalize.
Unless there's much more to it. And that's what I'd like to see.
In fact, I'd definitely like to see that. For no one has been as manipulative and crafty as Palpatine. His machinations have been nothing short of brilliant and he has played everyone, even the Jedi, like a harp. The only person we've ever seen with his ability to read people is Thrawn. I would truly like to read of their relationship. Why didn't Sidious think of him as a threat? Why not get him out of the way? Or did he try?
(C'baoth was a nut job. I honestly can't believe the Jedi council didn't pull that guy. Seriously, talk about heads in the sand. You know, OSC wrote an essay about the Jedi here. He criticized their entire order and showed them basically to be ivory tower elitests interested in preserving the status quo, not making things better. I don't think he realized it, but though he was absolutely right, that was the whole point. The Jedi were absolutely that. Book after book, review after review (for example, ain't it cool news) points out that this is obvious. They are so very myopic and their "handling" of the Chosen One borders on a joke. Only Obi-wan can see what is happening, but everytime he has tried to explain, Mace and Yoda shut him down. Of course, they all pay the price. The entire republic does.
Definitely much more story. And I think that Zahn should definitely do it. Zahn, Luceno (Labyrinth of Evil; Cloak of Deception; Dark Lord- Rise of Darth Vader), Stover (Revenge of the Sith), Sean Stewart (Yoda- Dark Rendezvous) and maybe Troy Denning (Tatooine Ghost, Dark nest) are the true masters of the EU. The rest are mediocre or downright hacks. But Zahn stands at the top.
Brilliant. Just a brilliant book. I hope there are many more.
Posts: 1346 | Registered: Jun 1999
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I'm going to be geeking out here quite a bit, and there will be some spoilers mixed in, so beware...
I agree with you up to the point where you talk about no one being as crafty a manipulative as Palpatine. I think Thrawn trumps him in those areas in every regard, really. Thrawn's origins are much more humble, he does not have the Force to prompt his actions, and most importantly his enemy, unlike Palpatine and the Jedi, are not crippled when it comes to sensing and detecting him.
We still don't know much about Thrawn. He appears to still be a merciful man-within his capacities as a military commander, of course...but as Car'das observed, Thrawn was fully capable of wielding appearances for the point of surgical deception. So...is the merciful but capable of ruthlessness Thrawn of this book the real deal, or is the ruthless capable of enslaving an entire race Thrawn of the Heir to the Empire trilogy bona fide?
I can't guess an answer to that, but as a reader I think Zahn is setting him up to ultimately be the former, based on all the other things he's written about him, most especially in the Hand of Thrawn duo. But on the other hand, we now have three perspectives on Thrawn. Imperial Grand Admiral, enslaver, mass-murderer...inspiring leader, protecting those too stupid to realize they desperately need protection...and military commander, protecting those who ask him for protection, merciful within that mission's limits. The only common factors, really, are all his native brilliance.
You're dead on about the Jedi Order, I think. Their mismanagement, arrogance, negligence, and outright stupidity borders on the criminal.
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quote:Obi Wan never takes Anakin out for drinks and just levels with him. Sits him down and explains fascist totalitarianism. He doesn’t explain why sacrificing the most marginal freedoms to create a false sense of security enables those taking on those additional powers to create a greater evil than that which they fear. Hell, nobody really explains to Anakin why Democracy is better than Absolute Rule. Instead it is all this, “Search your feelings” bullshit. Turn to your ancient religion. This is why ultimately Luke Skywalker kicks ass. Because he doesn’t have all this dogmatic bullshit. Because he’s got a buddy like Han Solo that’d be willing to bust ass across the galaxy to save his ass. Somebody that has his back. FRIENDS! Because when the Sith hits the fan, it’s the love of your friends that’ll help you push through and kick ass. Because Luke believes in twin sunsets, the good guys and saving his dad.
Ha! I'm on board with that. Luke Skywalker>Anakin Skywalker any day of the week, and Han Solo>Luke>Anakin>Yoda-of-the-let-go-of-everything
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I think Palpatine is, at the least, evenly matched with Thrawn. Keep in mind, I'm talking ability here, not origins or source of ability or whatever. The fact that Palpatine has basically played an entire order of gifted people with the ability to read emotion and get warnings from the force is a huge feat. The fact that he created a situation where they were forced to fight, to thin out, to rely on less reliable info, and finally, to actually attempt a coup (however justified) is something.
None of that detracts from Thrawn. If anything, him being, at the least, Thrawn's equal makes one wonder why he was kept around at all. I mean, at one point, Palpatine, a master at deception and hiding his nuanced reaction from even Jedi, would have been able to force-lightning Thrawn into oblivion (this is pre-Myrkr-Ysalimiri days, remember.) None of that happened. Why?
As for Thrawn's personality. Even going back to the original Thrawn trilogy, what did he actually do? Continued a deception against the Nohgri that Vader and Palpy had actually started. That's definitely wrong, but not monstrously so. Seeks to restore the Empire, with him at the help. This is mixed. An empire under him may or may not have been oppressive. We have no way of judging. Certainly the ONLY other book with Thrawn in it (this one) shows his concern for the little people and for order. So perhaps he wants to use an existing governmental system to impose true and real order. Remember, he did not callously execute people like Vader did. Except for one time, when Rruk executed the conn officer who let Luke escape in Heir to the Empire. It was rather callous. But except for that, no other mass executions. He also uses his cloaking-device and Kitana dreadnaughts to begin taking systems back from the New Republic. Obviously, this is battle, but again, there's no planet killing or burning or mass executions. It's war.
At best, Thrawn is a harsh man who doesn't mind people dying or being used, but he seems man of conscience enough that all that is done is done in the name of order and peace and getting things ready for the Yuzhan Vong. In fact, that's what Zahn did in the Thrawn duology. Showed us that behind Thrawn's desire to expand the empire was a desire to prepare it for outside invasion. And invasion that we later see taking 10? years and trillions of lives. I think Zahn is constantly trying to get us to re-think Thrawn and what he is up to. He's not the emperor.
REgarding Han>Luke>Anakin, I agree. It's just that Luke and Han are real friends and they don't have all this Jedi crap about attachment. Therefore, Luke is willing to leave his training with Yoda to save his friends. And despite his regret, he was right to do so. The insights he got there eventually led to victory. Even then, Yoda is in the "sacrifice everyone to the cause" mentality. But the opposite is the point. What are you fighting for if not the bonds that make us friends. But Anakin does not have that. Or at least it is not nurtured. Instead, any attachment he has is wrong. So he cannot save his mother. It is forbidden, despite the fact that prescience is a Jedi gift. He knows he is not allowed to try to save Padme. The Jedi save lives only when it suits their effete sensibilities or when their ideals demand it. Other than that, they'll maintain the status quo. They won't insist on reform. The won't step back and say no. It's only when they are threatened that they suddenly want to overthrow the republic. Of course Anakin leaves them. They are inhuman. And he is fully human.
As Luke is. And Luke's new order avoids that mistakes of the old one. It is a blending of the Sith and Jedi into something more balanced and new.
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quote:Continued a deception against the Nohgri that Vader and Palpy had actually started. That's definitely wrong, but not monstrously so.
Umm...that deception was the linchpin of the slavery of the Nohgri, the theft of their young, their constant oppression, and the corrosion of their spirit. The Noghri (sp?) did these things voluntarily, but it was death and slavery because of the deception behind it. He didn't just not tell them the truth, he furthered the lie.
And why? To have assassins and commandos...tools of statecraft and command, yes. He could've convinced them. With his charisma and brilliance and understanding, he could've.
We're being led to rethink Thrawn, but the altruism of his motives in Heir to the Empire remains questionable at best. It's possible he's doing a duty he dislikes for the better good. I'm inclined to believe it...but some of the things he does along the way-including the theft and enslavement of children, no less-are what makes it questionable.
Luke's 'rescue' of Han and Leia is of mixed success at best. They certainly didn't need his help to escape-they'd made their getaway on their own, with Lando's help. But that Luke got the lowdown on his paternal background is certainly an unexpected plus that wouldn'tve happened.
I hadn't really thought of it from that angle before, how deeply hypocritical Vader had become. Here Luke was, doing precisely that which Anakin had done repeatedly, in spite of people like Yoda telling him not to, and trying to stop him...but this time, the person actually stopping him is Anakin-Vader himself.
As for Luke's 'New Order', I personally think it has much more to do with Vergere and Jacen than Luke, Mara, or Anakin II. Luke was straining for something new, but without new knowledge and philosophy learned from Vergere and Jacen, it never could've happened.
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Well, obviously part of the NJO's difference with the old order is that GL did not in any way indicate what the old order was like or how it had (royally) screwed up. So to a certain extent, it is an after-the-fact fitting. But it does fit.
Luke's attempted rescue was not a failure simply because they didn't end up needing it. The very fact that he was willing to sacrifice himself for his friends was the point. He was the going to bust his butt across the galaxy to save his friends. Causes that ignore the bonds of friendship are not worth fighting for. ("Your over confidence is your weakness." "Your faith in your friends is yours." Both trilogies (all 3 if you include the Thrawn trilogy) have battles that are won because help is given by beings or groups that are seen as small, weak, primitive, inconsequential, or even dumb. Yet they win because the allies together are greater that they are individually) Even Yoda has never realized this, the importance of friendship. Maybe that comes from 900 years of letting his friends die and letting them go. But ultimately, it is this detachment that allows the Sith to take control.
I don't believe Thrawn is an altruist. His actions (or permissions, in the case of the Nohgri) are too dark for that. But neither is he unapologetically selfish and power-hungry, as the emperor is. Palpatine, while deceiving everyone else, does not deceive himself. There was one point in the ROTS novelization where Sidious tells Anakin to take the guilt and shame and rage he felt and to examine it from a mountain-top from within himself. Still feel it, but detach from it. Don't deny it, study it. Accept it, who you are, what you have done. And thus lose the power emotion has to cloud your feelings. That's what Sidious does. He is unashamed and who and what he his. And the death and suffering of others is inconsequential to his goals. There no attempt to, at least, stem the collateral damage.
From Thrawn there is, which indicates that he operates from within some moral framework, however more callous.
Definitely interested in more stories about the rise of the empire and especially Thrawns career.
****DARK NEST SPOILERS*******
I think Jacen is going to fall, primarily due to his Vergere influenced philosophy (his watching of Anakin's (grandfather) actions recorded by Artoo are not condemning but scarily admiring). Luke's NJO is more robust, more able to handle the world unlike old order effete monks. To be honest,however, there is a great deal of inconsistancy in the NJO. But that may end, with Luke being the Grand Jedi Master and taking direct control of the order, instead of simply a mentor. Remains to be seen, the "Legacy of the Jedi", which is the arch of the new series.
Posts: 1346 | Registered: Jun 1999
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quote:Thrawn's character in Outbound Flight is surprising. He seems too smart and basically decent to become the servant of Palpatine that he later becomes.
Ah, but is he really Palpatine's servant? My sense has always been that he was manipulating Palpatine just as much as Palpatine is manipulating him. After all, he only came to the Empire so that he could gain command rank, collect all the military hardware Palpatine was willing to give him, and then get himself kicked back out to the Unknown Regions where he could start his long-term preparations for the coming war against the Yuuzhan Vong.
Not that Palpatine was fooled, of course. I'm sure he knew perfectly well what was going on and figured he was getting as much out of the deal as Thrawn was. Possibly a little more.
That seems to explain things better. Sad thing is, he doesn't really indicate there will be anymore Thrawn books. Hopefully that will change.
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