Edit: Oh, of course it would have to be the first post on the second page, so that now I look like a twitching fool. See previous page for the source of the twitching.
Posts: 4077 | Registered: Jun 2003
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quote: Other than the continued encroachments on our personal liberties here in the US, it seems to be business as usual. Politics as usual, too.
We're in agreement about the encroachment on personal liberties. Since mort of the encroachers use 9/11 as their justification, I suspect this is why Tom would rather we did forget.
quote: You obviously have no idea why I think the lesson has been forgotten.
You are correct. I don't knew why you think this. I'm also not sure what you think we ought to be doing differently, though I get the sense that it has to do with increased popular support for war in the middle east. Feel free to elaborate.
(The idea that I find offensive, which perhaps was not implied by you but only inferred by me, is that those who do not support the war are either disloyal, stupid, or actually have a faulty memory. FWIW, the tendency to ascribe malicious motives--or stupidity--to those who see things differently from you is something I consider to be a trait of yours. Feel free to prove me wrong. )
quote: Yeah, and most people did at the time, too.
So you say. I disagree. *shrug*
Posts: 289 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
Synesthesia - "Here's the thing. I have a good reason for being anti-Bush. It's not because I enjoy taking down presidents or because I am anti-American and don't remember 9/11 It's because the man is truly, truly incompetent. Everything he has done from the moment he entered office has been posturing, it has been taking a useless product and surrounding it with false aadvertising. I watch him take little pauses, or try to look mature and powerful. It's all a show. It is completely fake. Even after 9/11, I failed to see how he was a strong leader. Promising war and revenge after such a terrible time does not equal strength. But most of the population bought it and agreed with the steps taken in Iraq which not only had nothing to do with 9/11 but has plunged the country into even more chaos! I see a man that lacks compassion and empathy. I see someone who cannot see the finer details or the larger picture. All I see is lies and deception weakening this country, making us lose every bit of honour it had... Yesterday I was at the emergency room and they kept showing CNN. I could not help thinking that finally the rest of the country was discovering something I was already aware of. That this president is useless, vancant and vapid and the ones that will suffer for it are the ones on the very bottom."
*psssst* *cheers softly* so as not to incur the wrath of anyone who is a better debater than her-which is just about everyone).
Posts: 870 | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:Here's the thing. I have a good reason for being anti-Bush. It's not because I enjoy taking down presidents or because I am anti-American and don't remember 9/11 It's because the man is truly, truly incompetent. Everything he has done from the moment he entered office has been posturing, it has been taking a useless product and surrounding it with false aadvertising. I watch him take little pauses, or try to look mature and powerful. It's all a show. It is completely fake. Even after 9/11, I failed to see how he was a strong leader. Promising war and revenge after such a terrible time does not equal strength. But most of the population bought it and agreed with the steps taken in Iraq which not only had nothing to do with 9/11 but has plunged the country into even more chaos! I see a man that lacks compassion and empathy. I see someone who cannot see the finer details or the larger picture. All I see is lies and deception weakening this country, making us lose every bit of honour it had... Yesterday I was at the emergency room and they kept showing CNN. I could not help thinking that finally the rest of the country was discovering something I was already aware of. That this president is useless, vancant and vapid and the ones that will suffer for it are the ones on the very bottom.
It's funny. This is exactly how I felt about Clinton. Then I realized I didn't just hate his ideas, I hated him. Then it turned into an unhealthy obsession that had me blaming him for every failure, every disaster, natural or not, and every misery of my life.
Then I realized that the President of the United States is 1. Human and imperfect. 2. Not God. 3. A politician who cannot please everyone.
Posts: 407 | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
I can't say I liked Clinton that much, but, Bush has gone beyond Clinton in more ways than one. It's one thing to be human and imperfect, another to be pretending to be such a good leader for this country and not delivering. I'm fair. I'm objective. I try to look at everything from every angle, but Bush has gone too far.
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
Yeah, but don't forget, Clinton was President through Rwanda and later seemed amazed that it happened. He failed us morally and ethically with that.
Sure, it wasn't American lives on the line, but 800,000 people are dead and we were no where to be found. And we should have been. There is that pesky legal obligation and all.
Posts: 9871 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
It's difficult to defend Clinton for not acting to prevent the slaughter in Rwanda; I regard it as one of the most tragic decisions of his presidency. It's also easy to understand why he didn't; because of poor PR in Somalia, the mood was against U.S. intervention overseas -- and moreover, he was continually beset by claims that those times he did intervene were motivated by a desire to deflect attention from domestic scandals. Remember, Bush II campaigned specifically on a foreign policy that centered on not intervening in other countries' disputes; it was actually a point he drove home repeatedly, and with some success: that he was not going to make the Clintonian mistake of stretching our military too thin by sending them everywhere every time a country needed help.
I don't think it would have been politically feasible for Clinton, given his situation at home, to explain to Americans why we were going into Rwanda so shortly after the mission in Somalia went belly-up; lacking the sort of obvious villain sthat Bush had in Al Qaeda and Hussein, I don't think we could have been persuaded in the time it would have taken.
But, yeah, this is a convenient rationalization. To Clinton's credit, I believe he recognizes this; I believe he understands that to some extent he failed to prevent the deaths of hundreds of thousands of non-Americans because he was afraid of the political fallout. A few years back, he returned to Rwanda and apologized; having read the speech, it sounds sincere to me. Now, I'm not saying that an apology makes up for anything of this magnitude -- but that in and of itself is more than we've ever had from the Bush team on any of their mistakes.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
I'll be curious to see whether GWB admits any error or apologizes once he's out of office.
Honestly, one of the things I find so utterly disturbing about him is that he cannot admit that his administration made a mistake, not even a little tiny bit. He (and perhaps his supporting staff/leadership?) are so obsessed with seeming STRONG and UNWAVERING that when they screw up, it becomes impossible for them to say, "Hey, you know what, this didn't go so well. We messed up a bit." If they did that, even once or twice--actually own a mistake--I would feel far less uneasy about them.
I mean, I'd still be uneasy (see Patriot Act, No Child Left Behind, the invasion of Iraq, and this thread), but I'd feel less like they were going to let the country implode because they can't correct any mistakes for fear of appearing WEAK and FLIP-FLOPPING.
Posts: 4077 | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
Constant jaw being set posturing is all you can expect from these people, not real strength and power. Real power would be admitting where mistakes had been made and doing something about it. Just not in the minds of some people. But, they have already flip-flopped in a lot of ways, folks just don't notice.
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
To be fair, I wouldn't admit mistakes either if I knew that any such admission would become an out-of-context soundbite.
I've never criticized Bush for not admitting mistakes. I think any sitting president would be insane to, in the media atmosphere we've fostered.
Posts: 13680 | Registered: Mar 2002
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posted
I guess I agree in some respects about the media taking some of the blame for public leaders being unable to admit their mistakes. I don't think we can place ALL the blame there, though. So much of the country, especially during the last election, ate up the image of the strong, unwavering Bush and the weak, flip-flopping Kerry. They weren't told to think that by the media; they thought that on their own. It seems to me that along with the growth of the "moral majority," the neo-con movement, the "taking back of America," the drive for "traditional American family values," came a movement to be seen as strong and implacable, as unwavering, and to see any change in position, any compromise, as weakness (what's the phrase..."Guns, Guts, and God"?). This is fine...except when it prevents you from being reasonable, which seems to be the case quite often in our current president.
I think that the idea that admitting a mistake is a weakness is a destructive one, for which blame cannot entirely rest on the media. Some of it, at least, resides on the shoulders of the culture as a whole (which is NOT solely dictated by the evil liberal newsmedia cabal, regardless of what Republican pundits would have us think). Our leaders get referred to as cowboys and bullies by other countries; that isn't for no reason. I don't find this trait disturbing only in Bush; the whole idea bothers me. Might does not make right, but that seems to be the way the prevailing winds of politics are blowing in this country.
Posts: 4077 | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
It takes a great person to admit his mistakes even if he knows its going to be all over the media. If that person is great enough he or she can admit it gracefully so it can't be used against them.
Bush can't be elected again, so he should be going all out for the best he can do in the situation. He's got nothing to lose by admitting mistakes, by speaking forcefully and by saying what he means.
EDIT: If he's afraid of the media in his situation, then he's not demonstrating very good leadership skills.
Posts: 8473 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
Megan, I'm not placing all of the blame on the media. Actually, I think the Kerry campaign would have made commercials constantly quoting "I was wrong" soundbite that Bush allowed to exist. (Just like the Bush campaign made lots of use of clips of Kerry apparently contradiucting himself and apparently flip-flopping.)
And Teshi, I don't disagree with you. I'm just saying why I believe Bush won't admit mistakes. Kerry basically admitted voting for the war was a mistake, and look where it got him.
I think we have evolved a system that rewards the most bankrupt people--morally, ethically, and leadership-wise.
Posts: 13680 | Registered: Mar 2002
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posted
Umm... it's rather late to be saying this. But, docmajik, if you are still reading this thread, I just wanted to say that I appreciated your post awhile back. I have disagreed with pretty much everything I've ever read from you, and our ideologies couldnt really be more diametrically opposed if we were from different planets. But when I read your long post twords the end of the last page, it made me think. Not so much about your points, most of which I still disagree with, but about you, and why you hold your opinions. It made me step back a little bit and realize that just because I think you are misguided (not to be patronizing, as I'm sure you'd think I were misguided too if I were as open about my ideas), doesnt mean that you dont have very good reason for what you believe. I dont know. I just wanted to let you know that your passion isn't wasted. People on different sides of the issue often seem to have very similar reasons for feeling the way that they do. Realizing that makes it harder to demonize those who disagree with you, and makes you look harder at your own blindness. Thanks for the reminder.
Posts: 499 | Registered: Mar 2004
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