posted
I don't know if this has been mentioned before, but the disaster came at the end of the month. Many of the poorest were tapped out already and waiting on their welfare checks at the beginning of the month.
Posts: 2848 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
I think it'd be logistically almost impossible to get welfare money to those people under the circumstances.
I think each state (except Alaska and Hawaii obviously) should agree to take in a certain number, whatever they can readily make room and have the supplies for. I know some states are already offering aid, but I think every state can do more than just send money and utility trucks. I wish my own state would send busses like TX did, pick up a couple thousand people and truck them over here, and find a place for them. There's plenty of room in Michigan.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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It seems like the very poorest people are a lot less willing to buy in to our common concept of civilization, that we're all neighbors, that we pull together, etc. Probably because the reality they live in doesn't show this face to them very often. Much more they see indifference, rapacious money dealings (the people who make their living selling to the poor usually take a large markup to make it worth their while), and constant signals from society at large that they don't belong and aren't part of us.
I'm not trying to excuse lawless behavior but to understand it, so that we can figure out how to make it happen less.
How much do hopelessness and powerlessness feed into this scenario? Almost all the people with resources to leave (including knowledge, strength/health, and good sense, as well as cars and money and family to go to) evacuated ahead of the storm. That was the wise thing to do, right? So those who are left are mostly those least able to cope with life in general. It's not surprising that civilization was so fragile in that situation.
I really wonder, too, how well any of us would be doing if it were us in there instead of them. How deeply is civilization inside of us, and how much does it depend on external conditions? I like to think we'd all act well in such a situation, but I just don't know.
Posts: 6246 | Registered: Aug 2004
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I'm reminded again of the CS Lewis quote I posted elsewhere here:
quote:"The load, or weight, or burden of my neighbor's glory should be laid daily on my back, a load so heavy that only humility can carry it, and the backs of the proud will be broken. It is a serious thing to live in a society of possible gods and goddesses, to remember that the dullest and most uninteresting person you talk to may one day be a creature which, if you saw it now, you would be strongly tempted to worship, or else a horror and corruption such as you now meet, if at all, in a nightmare. All day long we are, in some degree, helping each other to one or the other of these destinations. It is in light of these overwhelming possibilities, it is with the awe and the circumspection proper to them, that we should conduct all our dealings with one another, all friendships, all loves, all play, all politics. There are no ordinary people..."
— C.S. Lewis, The Weight of Glory and Other Addresses (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans Publishers, 1966), pp. 14-15.
I myself am pretty sure we are all capable of becoming creatures of horror or ones that inspire worship. There have been many times when I had to rely on myself in the crux of a situation, and I didn't really know how I would handle it before the moment itself.
Sometimes I rose to the occasion. Sometimes I didn't.
I am less interested in blaming individuals than I am in setting up and maintaining those systems which make it easier and more likely to be civilized. When this sort of thing happens habitually in the wake of widepread disaster, it seeme (to me) to say more about us as a people -- about what we need, what we are and are not capable of -- than it does about the actions of any one person.
Like Tatiana, I'm most concerned with getting aid to those in need, and then most concerned with figuring out how to safeguard against people being placed in such extremity again.
Posts: 14017 | Registered: May 2000
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quote:I really wonder, too, how well any of us would be doing if it were us in there instead of them. How deeply is civilization inside of us, and how much does it depend on external conditions? I like to think we'd all act well in such a situation, but I just don't know.
Not that we'd all act that way, but I think all of us are capable of that type of behavior. I think history has repeatedly shown that people regardless of background, social standing, intelligence, etc. are capable of this type of thing.
Posts: 1256 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
And, equally regardless of background, social standing, and intelligence, etc., that people are capable of not behaving this way, too... even under stress.
this
quote:rapacious money dealings (the people who make their living selling to the poor usually take a large markup to make it worth their while)
struck a hugely resonant chord with me in light of recent experience... I almost posted a rant about it at the time but was too incoherent. I may revisit this, but I'm out of time here...
Posts: 3846 | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
Why are we focusing on the bad, when so much good and heroism has come about from this event. People are working tirelessly on the behalf of the all victims of this calamity, including the small percentage of people who are in a dire enough place to be willing to do whats being reported. I still believe in the fundamental goodness of the average person. look again at the pictures for those where people help and then wonder at how good we are.
Posts: 686 | Registered: Sep 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Tatiana: It seems like the very poorest people are a lot less willing to buy in to our common concept of civilization, that we're all neighbors, that we pull together, etc. Probably because the reality they live in doesn't show this face to them very often.
The social contract only works if both parties (the individuals themselves and the society which they contract to) have something to gain.
There is a great entry in Wikipedia on contracts. It specifies that "generally, formation of a contract requires a bargain in which there is a manifestation of mutual assent to the exchange and a consideration (see also consideration under English law)." Consideration refers to the acquiring of a benefit, "meaning that every party is conferring a benefit on the other party or himself sustaining a recognizable detriment, such as a reduction of the party's alternative courses of action where the party would otherwise be free to act with respect to the subject matter without any limitation. [italics added]."
There are also conditions under which a contract may be broken, in which the obligation entailed by the contract may lawfully be escaped from: e.g., duress, misrepresentation, it becomes impossible to perform according to the contract, etc. I often mull over these when I think about conceptualizing the social contract the US has with its most marginalized citizens.
I'm not trying to excuse any looting or uncivilized behavior, mind you -- I hope I would behave better in similar circumstances. But I don't think that is the crux of the matter, once we get beyond the point of crisis. The crux will be "how can we set up our systems to handle this better in the future?" How can we best enable one another to be as civilized, virtuous, and Making as possible?
Posts: 14017 | Registered: May 2000
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quote:Originally posted by calaban: Why are we focusing on the bad, when so much good and heroism has come about from this event. People are working tirelessly on the behalf of the all victims of this calamity, including the small percentage of people who are in a dire enough place to be willing to do whats being reported. I still believe in the fundamental goodness of the average person. look again at the pictures for those where people help and then wonder at how good we are.
calaban, absolutely. There's a link to stories of heroism floating around here. It deserves its own thread, too.
Posts: 14017 | Registered: May 2000
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posted
Calaban, Yes, I did briefly think about this too when I read about all the police officers that had quit in the last few days. Why didn't they all quit? What motivated the others to keep working? It certainly isn't because of their meager salary that they continue to risk their lives. The fact that there are good, selfless people that are not acting out of greed is the one bright spot in all of this.
Posts: 1256 | Registered: May 2005
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Honestly, I think the bad should be focused on here. ::ducks::
Continue to focus on the bad until it gets solved, get attention focused on it, get people in there to fix it. When it's all over we can honor the heroes over and over, but until it is over, we need to know where the problems are to stick those heroes into.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
The reason the welfare checks makes such a difference is in the number of people who were not able to leave New Orleans simply because they couldn't afford to.
They also couldn't afford to stock up on emergency supplies. It wasn't meant as an indictment of the welfare system, but as one factor that contributed to this disaster.
Poverty isn't the culprit, just a co-conspirator in this.
Posts: 2848 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
While I don't want to "make political hay" out of this tragedy either, some issues must be addressed now rather than later. Otherwise we'll forget - like the proverbial roof that doesn't get fixed when the sun is shining.
1) Because of the recent repeal of the tough environmental policies, federal agencies have stopped protecting millions of acres of wetlands. These wetlands that might have mitigated some of this.
2) About 35% of the Louisiana Nat'l Guard is serving in Iraq. We could use them here about now.
3) The New Orleans Corp of Engineers had their budget cut by more than 40% last June. This halted (among other hurrican and flood projects) a study to protect the region from hurricanes.
I understand the desire to keep politics out of things, but the fact is that policies are set by politicians and these policies have real consequences for real people. If we don't look at these things now, when will we?
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
1.) I agree with you entirely on your first point, and it's sad that it took such devastation for people to realize that wetland conservation isn't just about saving the pretty trees and animals, it has a direct effect on humans as well.
2.) Not as big of a deal. There are plenty of other National Guardsmen units in the surrounding states that are on the way. Flying home the troops from Iraq would take 10 times longer than it would just to bring in neighboring states. Also, keeping them in their home state because there MIGHT be an emergency isn't practical.
3.) Another good point, and again, it's sad that it too an emergency to get people to realize they should put more attention on prevention rather than clean up.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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quote: Originally posted by Tatiana: It seems like the very poorest people are a lot less willing to buy in to our common concept of civilization, that we're all neighbors, that we pull together, etc. Probably because the reality they live in doesn't show this face to them very often.
As was posted in another thread, David Brooks has an editorial with some history of the 1927 New Orleans flood, in which the people in power flooded poor areas to save richer ones, and whites put blacks in labor camps. The rich lose much of the trappings of civilised society in disasters too, and they have considerable power to use to protect their interests at the expense of others.
It's a human failing not restricted to the poor.
Posts: 6316 | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
Forgot to add the part where the negroes were forced at gunpoint to stay where they were, while the last evacuation ship sailed off with the ship's band playing "Bye-Bye Blackbird".
Posts: 8501 | Registered: Jul 2001
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quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: While I don't want to "make political hay" out of this tragedy either, some issues must be addressed now rather than later. Otherwise we'll forget - like the proverbial roof that doesn't get fixed when the sun is shining.
1) Because of the recent repeal of the tough environmental policies, federal agencies have stopped protecting millions of acres of wetlands. These wetlands that might have mitigated some of this.
2) About 35% of the Louisiana Nat'l Guard is serving in Iraq. We could use them here about now.
3) The New Orleans Corp of Engineers had their budget cut by more than 40% last June. This halted (among other hurrican and flood projects) a study to protect the region from hurricanes.
I understand the desire to keep politics out of things, but the fact is that policies are set by politicians and these policies have real consequences for real people. If we don't look at these things now, when will we?
Wow, hindsight doesn't even need glasses!
Posts: 3564 | Registered: Sep 2001
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Of COURSE it's hindsight! Is there someting wrong about looking at our decisions and the consequences of those decisions, so maybe we might make better decisions next time?
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
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Not sure what you mean. IS there something wrong with taking history? Or do you mean we should wait for a long time before trying to learn from events? How long? Does it have to be in a class? Huh?
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
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I hope that this clear indication that something's wrong with letting the gaps between rich and poor get too large will allow America, and other similar countries to start putting the brakes on the growing economic gulf.
All those buses heading to the city now should have headed to the city in the evacuation period before the hurricane.
Posts: 8473 | Registered: Apr 2003
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kmb, I'm actually a huge fan of history. But I'm honestly reminded of a conversation from battlestar galactica. One character tells another, "Leave the second guessing to the historians."
Whether they be elementary school studens or college professors, now isn't the time to say who screwed up and how and how it could've been prevented. Right now, there's a hundreds of thousands of people that need help. It happened. What happens next is another page in the history book. And we're all a part of it.
Posts: 14745 | Registered: Dec 1999
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posted
When IS the time to look at bad decisions that lead to tragedy? When we've forgotten? After we make the same bad choices over and over again?
It seems that more and more we have bad policy decisions that lead to tragedy and then we are told that criticizing or questioning those policies is in bad taste or, worse, unpatriotic - because we're in the middle of a tragedy! Even those who warned of the consequences ahead to time.
This is not a monarchy. As citizens it is our DUTY to "second guess" our government.
None of this negates the need to help those who need it now - I never suggested it did.
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
I'd say the time to look back and figure things out would be once folks are relatively safe again. That's all. The midst of a tragedy in the midst of a rescue isn't a time to bicker and point fingers, because resources are lost, people are lost, and people die. You do what needs to be done and save all you can. Once that's completed, you take a step back, take a deep breath, and figure out when things went to hell and how you can keep that from happening again.
Posts: 14745 | Registered: Dec 1999
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posted
I don't really understand how, here in Chicago where the best thing I can do is click "donate" buttons, I'm hampering the rescue effort by raising questions on a forum. I'm not button-holing the director of FEMA, and if you should be out there doing something other than debating with me...well, by all means.
My problem with waiting is that our attention span is terrribly short. And the attention from the media even shorter. If we don't make the point now, we'll forget or get distracted. The news channels will move on to the newest thing and so will we.
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
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Amen, kmbboots. I think it's the job of those of us who aren't in a position to physically help to a) donate what we can and b) keep the bad things as well as the good alive past the time when people will want to forget, so justice can be served in the long run.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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It's not just about serving justice, but making better decisions (or electing people who will). We need to recognize that politics is not hypothetical.
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
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Part of justice would be not re-electing, or even removing from office, people who screwed up and cost lives.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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Forgetting about whether criticize can interfere with relief efforts, there's another reason to pause before assessing what went wrong: we don't know the results yet. We don't have a chance to evaluate outcomes. The adjustments that have to be made now must be made with as complete information as possible, and no one here has it.
Quite frankly, it's impossible to point out what the biggest mistake is that's been made so far.
quote:1) Because of the recent repeal of the tough environmental policies, federal agencies have stopped protecting millions of acres of wetlands. These wetlands that might have mitigated some of this.
The wetlands reduce storm surge by about 1 foot for every 2.7 miles the storm travels over them. The wetlands have eroded by about 1,900 sq. milessince the 1930s. The current rate is about 24 square miles a year, about half the average rate since the 1930s.
The erosion of wetlands is the result of the levees in the Mississippi that cause the water to flow straight into the gulf instead of depositing silt, a policy that has been in place for a long time.
quote:2) About 35% of the Louisiana Nat'l Guard is serving in Iraq. We could use them here about now.
True, we could. Do we know the effect this has had on relief efforts? Not yet.
quote:3) The New Orleans Corp of Engineers had their budget cut by more than 40% last June. This halted (among other hurrican and flood projects) a study to protect the region from hurricanes.
This study wouldn't have been complete yet, so last year's budget cuts did not contribute to the problem.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
There have also just been massive cuts in general disaster preparedness since 2001. Quoting Friday's Financial Times:
quote:Overall, federal funding for hurricane-control projects in the region has fallen by almost half since 2001, from $147m to just $82m in the current fiscal year, which ends on September 30.
Furthermore, the budget the Bush administration has been floating for 2006 "called for a $71.2m reduction in federal funding for hurricane and flood prevention projects in the New Orleans district, the largest such cut ever proposed."
I think its clear the Bush administration is happy to cut funding from necessary areas that are out of the public eye in order to satisfy the pork barrel projects it chooses not to oppose in exchange for political support in Congress.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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quote:According to the Associated Press, a general manager of a hotel in the French Quarter arranged hiring 10 buses to evacuate 500 guests from his and a nearby hotel for $25,000.
But the Federal Emergency Management Agency commandeered the buses and police told the guests to go to the nearby convention center, where a crowd, which was left without food, water or security, was growing angry, the AP said, quoting the tourists.
The tourists instead tried to cross a huge bridge blocks away, dragging their rolling luggage through broken glass, smashed bricks and trash, but they were turned back by police firing warning shots over their heads.
Also quoting the tourists, another media report said police cruisers rushed in with sirens and fired warning shots over their heads.
After their chartered buses were commandeered by the authorities and their hotels threw them out Thursday morning, police gave them conflicting information.
They were once told to head to the Superdome or the city convention center, and were later told to make their way to a highway overpass where buses would take them to safety.
The tourists were then turned away with police firing warning shots.
posted
I'm just going to look at the bus-comandeering issue, not the warning shots.
Of course, I don't know how I feel about this. On the one hand, disaster officials need to be able to comandeer equipment in these situations. On the other hand, if 500 people were going to get evacuated, why stop them? They're going to have to ride out on buses eventually, and these refugees likely will be out of the relief effort's way since they are tourists, not residents.
I'm glad I don't have to make these decisions.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
Well, it doesn't say it was the same group. But apparently they are "well dressed" and have been there less time than the others, and the number is right.
I'm betting it's the same group. Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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