posted
Alright, I'm heading to bed. We'll do more work on it tomorrow, but at least the basics are there.
As a comment, Katarain, Fahim and I haven't discussed whether we want the full name to show with all posts, or whether we're okay with a user ID showing. We do know, though, that we, as owners of the list, have to have the real name. Fahim's already gone to bed, so we'll discuss it tomorrow morning.
Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Ah. Well, I really like that. Then only people who have taken the time to make accounts are reading our stuff. Makes me be a little easier on the name thing, too. (It's not just my paranoia. My husband would get cross with me if I put my real name out there. He's very concerned with security.)
This is gonna be great for my motivation. Posts: 2880 | Registered: Jun 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
It HAS to be password protected. Writers will be putting their manuscripts up there. If it's viewable to anyone, then it counts as publication, and that will hurt a writer's future sales on that manuscript. That's also the reason we have to have real names. If people are anonymous, they do things they wouldn't do if they give their real names. So we have to find the right balance.
Believe me, I understand about paranoia. Paranoia is always a good thing, far as I'm concerned.
Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged |
I hadn't thought about the manuscript thing. You're very right. And yeah, for this I think real names makes sense. Also, it looks nifty and professional for people to be posting under their real names.
If the password protects us from a google spider then that's even better.
Have you guys thought of making people submit a piece to get accepted? Just a thought... not a suggestion. It probably would get overly complicated to do that anyway.
Posts: 2880 | Registered: Jun 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Fahim changed the forums so it shows userID, not full name, with all posts. He did that yesterday, but I hadn't noticed. Oops. He's working on changing it so that, when you look at member lists, you can't see everyone else's full name. But since he's also working a real job at the same time, it could take a while, but will be today if it can be managed. I'm going to see if he can add a field for real names so that if people are comfortable exposing their real name to everyone else, they can. If that makes sense.
Because the forum is password protected, googlebots and spambots and every other kind of bot can't get in. They can't see email addies or names or any of that stuff.
About getting people to submit a piece to get accepted - the problem with that is that we'd then run into the problem of people getting a crit then disappearing before they reciprocate, and we don't want that. But thanks for the suggestion anyway.
And now I'm off to finish setting things up and write more FAQs and all the rest of that. Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Member lists are now disabled, so no one other than admins will be able to see your name and other personal details. However, you can still email and pm each other if you choose to.
Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
quid... first of all... I cannot believe that domain name was available. You would think someone would have snapped up every way possible to describe Science Fiction/Fantasy. Hmmm.... was speculativefiction.com taken? I bet it was. Anyways, I have it bookmarked.
mack... I thought I remembered that one. I still have my critique of it. Not sure I sent you it or not. I am sorry if I didn't. I can't wait to read the expanded version.
Posts: 822 | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
larisse, what, you bookmark it, but you don't join? I can't believe the gall! Seriously, sign up. We won't bite. Much.
Kwea, yeah, I saw that. Unfortunately, I then logged out. We're having some issues that Fahim has to fix, so actually, at the moment, neither of us can log in. Of all the odd things to have happen. But he's working on it. And we have to wonder if other people can log in, or if it's just us who are having the problems. Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Me... afraid... nah. Paranoid... sure. No, I just hadn't realized I could register at the time. Biting can be fun when done in the proper place. Posts: 822 | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
And Fahim tells me you're registered, so, welcome!
And yeah, I'll second that biting thing. But that's reserved for Fahim.
Fahim has to reinstall the forum, so don't register in the next couple of hours. If you do, we have no idea what will happen. He says that most (all?) of those who've registered thus far should be saved. We hope.
I'll keep ya posted.
Meanwhile, I'm writing up instructions on how to critique. Yippee.
Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Fahim has to debug, so don't go there until further notice. There are some problems that he hasn't been able to fix despite much cursing and swearing and gnashing of teeth.
I'll update when it's working again.
Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Very cool, this sounds like fun! I might not submit anything as I haven't written anything in years, but I love reading other peoples stories. Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
Would I be welcome with my YA fantasy? Or are you aiming toward those writing for adults only?
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
Yep, it's perfectly fine, Belle. Come on over! Uh, but wait until it's working again, eh?
Kwea, we totally want you to submit stuff, too. One one submission a year - it's not that bad! Besides, you wanna write. You know you do. . . *pokes Kwea*
Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Well, that means I get at least ONE years worth of reading before I am booted...
We will see, I have had some ideas for writing at least some short stories lately, so I can probably write something up in a year... Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
mack, he's gnashed enough. He's going for dentures tomorrow.
He's deleted me and him so many times that we can't keep track anymore with what's going on. Now I can log in fine, but not to administrator priviliges. Sigh.
Otherwise, the forum's working again. Happy day.
Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Blacwolve, I haven't heard back from you after emailing a second time. Did you get the email? If you're having a problem, you can also PM me on the forums.
Okey dokey smokey. The forum is up and running and ready for submissions. Remember, August is free crit month, so it makes sense to submit manuscripts for critting. Read the instructions here first.
The documents are in the order you will use them.
Fahim is having some minor problems with the database, which he'll work on fixing tomorrow, but it's nothing that will affect anyone until crit crediting time, and it'll be fixed before you need it, so go ahead!
Let the games begin! Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged |
Also, there's an August special. See, for every crit the critter does, the critter receives 2 crit credits and the author is charged 1 crit credit. But for everything submitted before the end of August, there are NO charges to the author. So, whether you have a whole lot of short stories or an entire novel, submit away!
Think of it as incentive to get the ball rolling. Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Quid, is there a limit and a maximum length for the stories on there? I'm interested, I like reading other people's stories and making crits on it. I also have a story of my own I'm working on, but I only have about 8 pages written so far, and the story is not yet finished. I'm having trouble continuing it because I keep reading back and fixing it. Would I be able to submit what I wrote so far so I could get crits on that?
Posts: 853 | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
I'm not sure my novel would meet your guidelines... So I don't know what to do. I'd like to join, but...
Posts: 9293 | Registered: Aug 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
Huh, this looks like it could be really helpful. And I don't currently have a workshop. I think I'll sign up!
Posts: 4600 | Registered: Mar 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
How would this work for novels, especially novels in progross? Is each chapter a separate submission, and would reviewers get later chapters even if they hadn't read the earlier ones?
When you want to do a crit, do you pick from a list or are you assigned one randomly?
posted
Jaime, there is no minimum nor maximum length for stories. There is a maximum that applies only to how it's broken up for submission. The maximum length for submission is 16 standard formatting pages, or 4000 words, so if your story is 10,000 words, then split it up into 3 manageable pieces and submit that way. Or if it's a novel, then submit it by chapter, making sure that each chapter fits under the maximum size. Let me know.
But yes, you definitely can submit what you have thus far and get crits on it. If you like, you could also submit the synopsis (if you have one) or plot outline if that would help you figure out your story. Heck, you could submit query letters, one sheets, whatever you want - as long as it's either a story or related to the business of selling a story.
Olivet - without knowing more about your concerns, I don't know. Feel free to email me offlist if what I'm about to say doesn't answer your question. We don't allow fanfic or playing in someone else's universe unless you have explicit written permission to do so. That would be inviting lawsuits, and we're not willing to go there. If your story has violence, gore, language, sex, then you have to give warnings as to what type of adult content it has. We focus primarily on science fiction and fantasy, but if it's another genre, you can post it for crit with the understanding that that isn't the main focus of the site, so you may not get people who are as knowledgeable in that genre.
Destineer - Fahim tells me you signed up. Welcome!
Enigmatic - You pick which submissions you crit. We don't assign anything. I hate groups that work that way, personally. There is, however, a drop down list that shows what's been submitted and how many crits they have, which can help you decide what to start working on. But no, it's completely up to you.
Novels. There are two ways to submit, but either way involves submitting it chapter by chapter. One way is to do it as RFDR Request For Dedicated Readers, which will only work if you plan to submit the whole novel in a fairly short period of time. The other way is to submit the chapters and whoever crits is whoever crits. If that makes sense to you? If you go with the second, I'd also recommend posting a synopsis so those who come in mid-stream can catch up to what's happening.
Blacwolve - no problem! I'm glad you found them and that it answered your question. Glad to have you on board, too!
I hope that answers the questions. If there are any more, please feel free to ask away.
Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I'm a bit confused. I understand earning crit credits, and needing 6 to submit something, but why is the author charged for other people's crits of the author's work? Won't that bring my credit total down? If I write a popular story or one that gets a lot of crits, will I have to crit other stories day and night to keep my total above negative numbers? Or am I missing something obvious?
Posts: 7790 | Registered: Aug 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
Livvy, I think your book might be a little ...graphic for a board, but it's certainly something I would post about and see if anyone's interested.
posted
Chris - charging the crit credits to the author brings down an author's crit credit balance, and it's intended to be that way. We need to make sure that no one receives crits but never does them - it's not fair to the critters who do all the critting, nor is it fair to the author, who doesn't learn as much as he would by also critting. This way keeps everyone honest, so to speak.
quote:If I write a popular story or one that gets a lot of crits, will I have to crit other stories day and night to keep my total above negative numbers? Or am I missing something obvious?
First, you get 2 crits automatically for every crit you give, but the author is only charged 1. The author can give you more if your crit was exceptionally inciteful, or can deduct if it was useless, but the default is 2 crit to the critter and 1 deducted from the author. The author is always charged 1/2 of what goes to the critter.
This also means that, for every crit you give, earning 2 points, means that you can receive 2 crits, which deduct 1 point each.
However, you can also STOPCRIT your work after you've received enough crits, so that should, hopefully and theoretically, prevent the problem you've described from happening. Also, we have a report which shows how many crits have been done for which manuscript, so an author can see how many crits have been done on his manuscript, and a critter who's looking at earning crit credits can see who's in need of crits.
Does that answer the question sufficiently?
Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
It does, but it still seems too heavily weighted against posting work. Do you charge credits to post a story, or do you just have to have that many to qualify? Say I've done 4 crits, and now have 8 credits. I post a story. Do I now have 2 credits, or still 8?
If I have 8, and I get crits from 10 people, do I now have -2?
It makes more sense to me to be charged credits to post a story, using up the credits I've earned by critting, than it does to charge me for every person who crits me. I would still be encouraged to crit since I would need to build up my points if I wanted to post again. Even if the credits required to post were made higher it would sound better to me.
I'd suggest making the posting cost 8 or 10 credits. I do five crits, I get 10 credits. I post a story. I'm now broke. I do five more crits... and the cycle of life continues.
I don't want to be in the position of hoping no one crits my work because I'm out of points. It may work better in practice than it sounds, I'm just giving my initial impression.
[ August 21, 2005, 08:43 AM: Message edited by: Chris Bridges ]
Posts: 7790 | Registered: Aug 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
I haven't tried them, but you might check out the standards that critters.org uses (if you haven't already). I don't think the queue system would work for you (they're e-mail based) but the varying points based on manuscript length might help. 1/2 a pt for critting really short works, longer works get 1 pt per 5,000 words read. Point awardance is also dependent on the length of the crit - under 100 words gets nothing, 100-200 words gets half credit, over 200 words gets full credit. All of that encourages thoughtful critting as opposed to lots of "Loved it!" crits, although it could be a lot of work/programming.
I'm speaking from ignorance, I've never been in critters. I am in a critting group but it's e-mail and mostly honor system (you don't crit, people ignore your work). It just seems to me that you've developed a system where the more people crit your work, the worse off you are.
[ August 21, 2005, 09:09 AM: Message edited by: Chris Bridges ]
Posts: 7790 | Registered: Aug 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
Posting a manuscript doesn't affect your crit credit balance - only receiving crits does. And yes, if you start with 8 Crit Credits and receive 10 crits, you'll have a -2 Crit Credit, which also takes only 1 crit to zero out.
If you have enough crits already, you can STOPCRIT your manuscript, and then only those crits currently in progress would be posted against your manuscript.
Charging an author for crits regardless of whether or not an author receives any crits, never mind any useful ones, doesn't sit well. We'd rather base the system on the value of the crit itself.
While the default value for a critter submitting a crit is 2, which costs the author 1 Crit Credit, the author has the option of increasing or decreasing what the critter receives based on the value of the crit received. For example, if a crit gave an incredibly insightful crit, the author could award that critter an extra 1 or 2 Crit Credits, at a cost to the author of 1/2 or 1 additional Crit Credit. But if the critter gave an essentially empty and useless crit, the author could deduct 1 or 2 Crit Credits from the critter, returning 1/2 or 1 crit credit back to the author. While it's not based on the length of the crit, it's based on the value of the crit to the author.
Also, we ask that manuscripts be broken down into 4000 words or less (16 pages, publication guidelines) to ensure that we have a fairly even playing field with crits.
Yes, I checked out critters.org, as well as quite a few others, and we took bits and pieces from here and there as they felt appropriate. But thanks for the suggestion anyway. Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Charging an author for crits regardless of whether or not an author receives any crits, never mind any useful ones, doesn't sit well. We'd rather base the system on the value of the crit itself.
I wouldn't suggest charging for crits at all, only the privilege of posting a story. I do like the author's option to bump the crit credit amount for value received (and that should be charged against the author, so people won't keep bumping credits for friends), I just don't like every crit being charged to the author.
No worries, but I'll probably hang back and see how it works for a bit before committing.
Posts: 7790 | Registered: Aug 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
At first read, I kinda like the idea of charging credits for posting rather than for how many crits you receive. I mean... what happens if you submit and you can't log on for several more days and your credits have gone way negative because people are critiquing your pieces to death.
Also, do you think people will converse on the critiquing threads? Commenting on each other's critiques? And if the author has a question about one of the critiques, is the original critiquer's answer counted as a crit? Will the computer know the difference between questions, conversations, and clarification posts?
I'm not trying to be contrary. Don't worry. Just consider the alternative of charging to submit rather than being critiqued again. I'm sure ya'll have good reasons for your decisions.
posted
Katarain, I think you have to take credit for your crits, it doesn't automatically give you points for them. So unless you try to take crit credits for asking a question or making a post in your own submission, the computer won't have to recognize it. Quid, underneath all the usernames, what does the applaud/smite thing do, and what does the karma rating do?
Posts: 853 | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Katarain - we encourage discussion of crits as a means of increasing our understanding about what makes better writing. We hope it will happen - we want to improve our writing, and we hope that everyone else who's there also wants to improve their writing, and by discussing what works and what doesn't, it'll help us. But a critter only gets credit for the original crit, which Jaime correctly said the critter has to take. Any discussion after that doesn't count for points.
The only way for a critter to get crit credits is for the critter to first get them, and secondly, for the author to reward more for value. Nothing is automatically given by virtue of a post showing up in a discussion thread. It has to be initiated by the critter going into the database.
The way we have the system set up, we tie the quality of the crit to the crits that can be received (remember, an author can adjust how many Crit Credits a critter gets), which feels like a much more fair system than anything else we've come across. If we tie the Crit Credits charged to the author just for posting a story, what value does that have to the author if no one crits, or if the crits don't help the author?
Another thing is that you can specify in your original post "No more than 4 crits, please." (Although I'd be inclined to put that note in all caps at the very beginning and again at the very end of the post. ) While that doesn't guarantee that people will read that, it should help in most cases.
Applaud/smite - it's for rating each post by people. Applaud gives a positive rating, and smite gives a negative rating. So, if someone's being cantankerous, for example, smite them for bad behavior. Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I'm trying not to feel insulted that you thought I'd submit fanfic, for crying out loud.
But I don't do short stories, and my novel does have some violence and sexual content. It was fine, even mild by the standards of the OWW that I linked to before. I just don't want to register and immediately post something that would offend people.
Again, no one in crit groups I've been in has had a problem with it, but... I've only ever had one Mormon really like it *waves at Taalcon* Two if mack still counts.
I'm just not up for condemnation right now. So if my subject matter is a problem, I'd like to know before I join. My novel takes place in world run by women. I think of it as a "feminist dystopia". I got tired of reading all the fruity feminist utopia stories floating around the OWW and said, "Nope. Women with power can be just as evil as men with power. Maybe worse." So, I basically took every terrible thing you hear about fathers murdering their daughters if they think they're not virgins, or 'home correction' or, say, the state of Virginia printing on marriage licences that it actually IS illegal to beat your wife... and turned them around to make the femmes the brutal, repressive force in society.
I dunno, I think maybe some people may have read it and thought that was how I wanted things to be (which it isn't, and I never considered the possibility that people would think that).
I'd like to be a part of this, 'cause I think maybe you guys would get that I'm not advocating anything, just trying to examine certain injustices by turning the tables.
I will understand, though, if it doesn't sound like the kind of thing you'd want in your group.
Posts: 9293 | Registered: Aug 2000
| IP: Logged |
quote: Also, we ask that manuscripts be broken down into 4000 words or less (16 pages, publication guidelines) to ensure that we have a fairly even playing field with crits.
That seems fairly short to me. For a novel it's not really a big deal to break it down further than chapters, but a lot of short stories are going to be longer than that and it seems a little silly to get a critique on half of a short story, IMHO.
Of course, if what people are looking for is line by line editing, then it doesn't really matter if it's in sections. But to discuss the actual plot and whether or not the story works for you, you'd pretty much have to read both sections... and then what? Post a crit on each, when really what's needed is a discussion on the whole?
Maybe I just have different expectations for this sort of thing. Which doesn't mean anything's wrong, just that it might not be the arrangement for me to join.
posted
Olivet, me mentioning fanfic was not supposed to be an insult, but information for anyone reading this thread that we can't have fanfic on the forum. If you were offended, I'm sorry.
Now that you've described the story, I still don't see why it would be a problem. Like I've said before, post the necessary warnings so people who's sensibilities will be affected won't have to look at it, and your bases are covered. That's all we ask.
And for the record, just because you write about something does not mean you're advocating that, in my eyes. If someone else thinks that, they better keep it off the forum. This is fiction. Fiction is about make-believe, pretend, playing, and exploring other situations, so again, I fail to see the problem.
Also, while it's true that one of the site owners is LDS (me), the other site owner is Muslim (Fahim), and members of the site are from who knows how many religions or lack thereof. That doesn't matter as far as we're concerned.
So, to repeat myself one more time, I fail to see the problem. Post away. We'll be happy to have it on our site.
Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:That seems fairly short to me. For a novel it's not really a big deal to break it down further than chapters, but a lot of short stories are going to be longer than that and it seems a little silly to get a critique on half of a short story, IMHO.
Of course, if what people are looking for is line by line editing, then it doesn't really matter if it's in sections. But to discuss the actual plot and whether or not the story works for you, you'd pretty much have to read both sections... and then what? Post a crit on each, when really what's needed is a discussion on the whole?
Maybe I just have different expectations for this sort of thing. Which doesn't mean anything's wrong, just that it might not be the arrangement for me to join.
Enigmatic, thank you for bringing this up - your question spurred us into coming up with a solution that I think will work better than what we had originally.
If the work is longer, and the author wants to post it as one piece, the author can still offer the critter the opportunity to earn double the Crit Credits by entering the manuscript into the submission database with 1/2 and 2/2 so the critter can claim more Crit Credits. Does that make sense?
Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I'm not sure I get it. Do you mean A) Post two submissions, "Story 1 of 2" and "Story 2 of 2" so someone gets credit for doing both but can see they're parts of the same or B) Post one submission with some sort of multiplier flagged on it, so it charges you double credits and awards the critter double credits
quote:Originally posted by quidscribis: Olivet, me mentioning fanfic was not supposed to be an insult, but information for anyone reading this thread that we can't have fanfic on the forum. If you were offended, I'm sorry.
I wasn't offended. I was joking, 'cause some folks know I have written the occassional fanfic parody
quote: And for the record, just because you write about something does not mean you're advocating that, in my eyes. If someone else thinks that, they better keep it off the forum. This is fiction. Fiction is about make-believe, pretend, playing, and exploring other situations, so again, I fail to see the problem.
On another writing group... I sort of got ... propositioned by somebody who wanted a spanky. At least, I THINK that's what he meant...
Anyway, I had to flush the email address and get the mods to let me go back with a new name and tell my regulars where to find me. It was horrible. An over-reation, you might say, but I want my online dealings to above reproach. My marriage is sacred to me, and I'd hate to think anything I did online might hurt my husband, or reflect badly on him, so I'm a bit over-cautious. I even tried to hide tha I was a woman when I first joined Hatrack. *blush* seems silly now that I ever worried. Posts: 9293 | Registered: Aug 2000
| IP: Logged |
Printer-friendly view of this topic
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[ROFL]](graemlins/rofl.gif)
Seriously, sign up. We won't bite. Much.![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
But he's working on it. And we have to wonder if other people can log in, or if it's just us who are having the problems. ![[Dont Know]](graemlins/dontknow.gif)
![[Evil]](graemlins/evil.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
