quote:Mormons, Jews Set Up Group to Study Concerns 11 April 2005
SALT LAKE CITY — Leaders of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints have acted not only with goodwill, but also with integrity and honesty in decade-long discussions over Jewish concerns about proxy baptisms, it was stated today.
Elder D. Todd Christofferson, a member of the Church's high-ranking Presidency of the Seventy, was commenting after discussions with Jewish guests who had been invited to Salt Lake City to discuss the issue.
Disagreement had arisen over interpretation of a memorandum of understanding that was drafted in 1995 after some Jews objected to Holocaust victims' names being used in Latter-day Saint temple ceremonies. Church members believe these ceremonies extend significant blessings to departed souls.
In February, the Church invited several Jews concerned with the issue to Salt Lake City for discussions, and today's meeting was the result of that invitation. Representatives of the Family and Church History Department spent considerable time explaining the processes and mechanisms that have been put in place to ensure consistency, as far as possible, with Church policies and procedures.
Both sides later characterized the meeting as cordial and respectful, and said they believed the relationships between the participants had been "fortified and deepened." Elder Christofferson said while the Jewish visitors came with specific concerns, they spoke respectfully of the Church and its beliefs, while Church leaders emphasized that those feelings of respect were mutual.
The most concrete result of the meeting was a decision to set up a joint, ad hoc committee with representatives from both sides to examine and resolve remaining concerns. The committee will begin meeting within the next six weeks.
After the meeting, Elder Christofferson emphasized that the Church had always kept its side of the understanding.
"In 1995 we made an extraordinary gesture of goodwill to our Jewish friends by recognizing special sensitivities over Holocaust victims," he said.
At that time, some 380,000 names of Holocaust victims were removed by the Church from display in the public database known as the International Genealogical Index, or IGI, which is freely available to researchers on the Internet. Church members and other genealogical enthusiasts often use the IGI in gathering data on their ancestors.
In addition, he said the Church had over the years removed from display in the IGI the names of deceased Jews when they had been made known to Church officers. A letter from the governing First Presidency of the Church was read in Sunday meetings worldwide in June 1995, urging Church members to submit for temple ordinances the names of their own ancestors, and not the names of deceased celebrities or Jewish holocaust victims.
And then there's this from church news, which you can't access without a paid subscription:
quote: Elder Christofferson encouraged Church members to understand and follow guidelines in submitting names for temple work.
"It is essential that members respect the direction of the First Presidency in these matters," he emphasized. He said the Church is creating a very extensive worldwide support organization that will help ward family history consultants, staff members and patrons at family history centers to be better trained and help members know and follow these policies....
He said that because of the constant inflow of new volunteers and members, training will be ongoing always.
"The instances where we have members who are knowingly not following policy are few. We ask their local leaders to correct that. Our members are people of goodwill and we are not unhappy with them. " He cited the directions in the Church Handbook of Instructions on the subject:
"Members should identify their kindred dead...Names of non-related persons should not be submitted, including names of celebrities or famous people or those gathered from unapproved extraction projects such as Jewish Holocaust victims" (Church Handbook of Instructions, p. 262).
First of all, if you believe in life after death, what do you think you'll be doing? Writing threads on spiritual Hatrack?
Hopefully, you, like the rest of us will continue our existence. Mormons beleive that they will be resurrected, body and spirit rejoined to their fullness as was the Savior.
Therefore, if there is eternal progression, then eternal ordinances must be available for you to progress in eternity.
When they are completed here, those who have gone on are not "forced" to accept them although it beats me why someone on the other side, knowing what they know, would deny them, but that is free agency.
Someone will make it possible for you to choose what you think is life after death and what you might actually find once you get there.
As for the Jews being baptized for the dead, good link there Taalcon. All attempts are being made to stop the process. However, it is not a decree that has gone out from Casear Agustus to all the congregations around the world. It was delivered at a different audience of geneology and family history workers. So, sorry, you can't excommunicate anyone for submitting a name.
Women. God bless them! But as for the class Belle mentioned, I can guess at what happened. It is of the utmost importance in the Mormon church to protect the integrity of women. If Belle's husband worked with the youth and a young lady needed a ride home, it would be inappropriate for him to be alone with her in the car. I think someone overreacted to having a woman in a room full of men. Nothing wrong with it at all, no reason why Belle couldn't have taught the lesson other than a priesthood leader trying to use good judgment but was a little off course.
Women having the priesthood--not on earth, but definitely in heaven. Talk to Heavenly Father if you don't like the idea because it's His law. However, in the eternities? These beloved women will be priestesses.
It's all about accountability and the patriarchial order. God's plan. Not mans.
Anyway, it's April, the surf is up, there's a bridge with a Pacific ocean view and hot soup. Life can't get any better.
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Your guess on what happened in Belle's case is ridiculously wrong -- but you were hampered by not knowing one fact. Belle and her family aren't LDS.
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DKW---DUH! Maybe we should put religious prefernece in the profiles so I don't look so dumb!
Scott R: Why not Actually, what do you think you'll be doing for eternity in heaven? Just gonna hang out?
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Scott and I are going to play an eternally long game of Monopoly that morphs into a RPG featuring monkeys, gargantuan dragon flies and 3,789 guys named Ed. The money will be made of fruit leather so we can eat it.
There may also be some random singing of Church hymns with lyrics that have been changed to reflect whatever mood we are in.
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katarain, no one answered your earlier question:
quote: I'm wondering, though. I've been baptized, but another Christian denomination. If one of my offspring or someone else converted to the LDS church, would they "need" to baptize me?
Only if they're a direct descendant of yours, or another relative and have gotten permission from all other living relatives, or are the only close living relative left. The reason? We don't recognize baptism not conducted by a man holding the appropriate priesthood as understood by this church as valid.
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Mormons believe only mormons are going to the very top level of heaven right? Isn't that because they chose the right religion? Through their own free will, they were able to find the true religion.
Doesn't that totally get negated when someone can just be baptised by the Mormons, negating any choice they made in life?
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It doesn't negate the choices made in life - they are still the same person.
Every ordinance has a physcial element and a personal/spiritual element. The physical dunking is one part, and that's the part done by proxy for the dead. The other part is a turning of the heart to the Savior, the being born-again spoken of, the conversion, the inward committment to follow Him. It is not complete without both components, so the physical baptism won't do any good at all if that second component, the change of heart, does not happen.
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I like the idea, if not the process. Its better than saying all Jews are flat out going to Hell.
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Right, but it's still ignoring the fact that they didn't choose mormonism. If that choice is not an important aspect of mormonism than why is there a heaven solely for mormons?
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jeb, my understanding is that the person will get a chance to choose mormonism in the next life.
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I agree. I guess I just see dead bodies as just that, dead bodies. If I read everything above correctly (I came in late) then they are just doing this for their ancestors? I don't believe in baptism, but if my children converted, and it helped with their grief to poor some water over my grave, then thats fine with me. Its not going to send me to Hell (especially since I don't believe in Hell).
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quote:First of all, if you believe in life after death, what do you think you'll be doing?
I suggest you read my post again. I don't believe in life after death, I believe in death after life. See the difference? As for your ordinances, I can't stop but from believing fairy tales, but I can ask you kindly not to drag my memory into your fantasy.
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Ah, and that occurs when the person becomes baptised?
It still seems to contradict the whole belief of coming to this world in order to be closer to God and junk, though, doesn't it?
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As amused as I am by Kent's answer, the serious answer is that it isn't specifically "Mormon" as we know it, but by the priesthood from God. The OT prophets had it, Jesus gave it to his apostles, and many dispensations have had it. Part of the restoration of Christ's church in modern times was the restoring of the priesthood.
So, Mormons are a subset of the larger set of everyone who has been baptized with the priesthood.
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Note that the above must all be prefixed with "Mormons believe"; no non-LDS scholar considers there to be even semi-persuasive evidence the practice (that is, the priesthood kat references) existed prior to the LDS church.
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I keep thinking, if I had never come to Hatrack.com then I wouldn't know anything about LDS except for what I read in Lost Boys, and so it makes sense that maybe after death I'd have a chance to convert, assuming LDS beliefs are correct. But now that I HAVE been here, and read a lot about it, and asked a bunch of questions, and I really decided I like being Catholic better, I'm doomed, if the LDS is the real Church. Because I have been given enough information, and still turned it down. There won't BE anymore chances for me, most likely, right?
That makes me kind of sad. I'm serious, I'm not being sarcastic here.
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fugu -- makes me wonder what's in all those ancient manuscripts that can now be read, to be honest.
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quote:I keep thinking, if I had never come to Hatrack.com then I wouldn't know anything about LDS except for what I read in Lost Boys, and so it makes sense that maybe after death I'd have a chance to convert, assuming LDS beliefs are correct. But now that I HAVE been here, and read a lot about it, and asked a bunch of questions, and I really decided I like being Catholic better, I'm doomed, if the LDS is the real Church. Because I have been given enough information, and still turned it down. There won't BE anymore chances for me, most likely, right?
That makes me kind of sad. I'm serious, I'm not being sarcastic here.
I believe you. I actually don't have a good answer.
I remember when my grandmother died, my mom took us all to the temple to do the work for her about a year later. My brother was mentioning that he didn't think it would do any good - my mom had spent years telling her about the church and my grandmother was never interested. We just told him to not dare mention that to Mom.
Katie's personal opinion: We are accountable only for what we know and understand, and I'm sure the Lord will take care of things. I mean to say, it isn't ours to decide what enough is.
quote:Because I have been given enough information, and still turned it down. There won't BE anymore chances for me, most likely, right?
That depends on one unknowable (to human beings, anyway) factor: whether or not you have really turned it down, and really been given your 'moment of truth' choice, so to speak. Just because for instance missionaries visit your door and you listen to them and decide not to convert, does not mean you have been given the choice and you're damned or saved, depending. Heck, that'd be like extortion, wouldn't it?
Whether or not you have, as far as Mormonism is concerned, is between you, God, and the Spirit.
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Personally, Theca, I don't think you've really had the opportunity to learn about the LDS church well enough for that kind of accountability. At least not here. This is just not the setting for it.
And I personally don't believe that going and getting baptized Catholic is a ticket to hell. Posts: 5957 | Registered: Oct 2001
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Wow, so many questions, so many interpretations ans so little time.
KoM--sorry I misread your post. I'm saddened by such a position in life. What do you have to look forward to? Why bother doing anything if nothing matters once you are dead? It certainly negates my motivation to do good. It seems you would rather be a memory for a period of time than to be an eternal being. Probably a lot easier that way since there is no accountability for what you do with this life and no need to improve upon what you are it would seem.
All--the Priesthood existed from the begining. We read in the Bible that Jesus held the Melchezidek PH, also that the PH is eternal. Man had to get if from somewhere as man is incapable of creating this type of authority to act for God on the earth. Without God's blesings, it would be useless.
When you die, you are not accepted into the kindom of heaven as a Catholic, Jew, or Mormon, (although there are some good jokes about this) you are accepted as a child of God. Therefore, baptisms for the dead do not make you a "spiritual Mormon" it simply provides an avenue to return to the presence of God.
What you have done with your life, what you have learned about God's kingdom, what intelligence you gain and how you utilized the "gifts" God gave you are all part of your eternal progression.
Theca--there is always a chance to accept God's will in this life or the next, whatever that will is. You are a Catholic. You've had some exposure to the LDS faith here but a chat room does not compare to the proper teaching of religion by God's messengers. The spirit of light and truth cannot be conveyed electronically.
So do not fret about that. If you really want to know about the LDS church, ask missionaries to come over and teach you. Challenge them in every way possible and then make a decision.
Papa Moose--right you are, I wonder myself what will be revealed in those ancient documents.
But what do I know? I guess I'm a bridge Bishop and my congregation is made up of pigeons.
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Just a clarification to Hammers [first post in this thread]:
Quids quote said this:
quote: A letter from the governing First Presidency of the Church was read in Sunday meetings worldwide in June 1995, urging Church members to submit for temple ordinances the names of their own ancestors, and not the names of deceased celebrities or Jewish holocaust victims
So the information was given to the general body of the church. I still don't think they would excommunicate someone for submitting a name, but people should really know better. I also think that maybe this information should be repeated every now and then so that people who may have missed it last time or who weren't even members of the church at the time will know this as well.
EDITED - To clarify which post of Hammers I was referring to.
[ April 22, 2005, 05:08 PM: Message edited by: solo ]
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The priesthood as described in the Bible and as exists in Jewish tradition is not particularly similar to the priesthood claimed by the LDS church, a similar choice of names notwithstanding, Hammer.
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quote:Why bother doing anything if nothing matters once you are dead?
For that matter, why not just kill yourself and get taken up into Heaven right away?
quote:It certainly negates my motivation to do good.
You only do good because you expect a heavenly reward? That is utterly disgusting. But kindly do not judge me by your own low moral standards. I do good, or try to, because that is the kind of person I want to be. That you need a fantasy father to stand at your shoulder and make you do your homework says a lot more about you than about me.
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quote:You only do good because you expect a heavenly reward? That is utterly disgusting. But kindly do not judge me by your own low moral standards. I do good, or try to, because that is the kind of person I want to be. That you need a fantasy father to stand at your shoulder and make you do your homework says a lot more about you than about me.
I thought this was a civilized discussion. Holy cow.
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Or rather -- same power. How it functions and manifests itself is, of course, subject to change based on local conditions and the wisdom of God.
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Indeed it was, until I was accused of being a nihilist with nothing to live for. I suspect you are reacting more to the 'King of Men' byline than the actual contents of my post.
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The actual contents of your post were rather insulting, regardless of your byline and your previous posts. From your name I can kind of predict your stance, but you can present your stance in a more approachable manner.
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Zal -- I'm certain I've seen Mormons claiming (though I of course understand that each comes to his/her own conclusions on this) and pretty certain I've heard of Mormon authoritative or fairly authoritative writings claiming that the current priesthood is as practiced throughout history.
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quote:I'm certain I've seen Mormons claiming (though I of course understand that each comes to his/her own conclusions on this) and pretty certain I've heard of Mormon authoritative or fairly authoritative writings claiming that the current priesthood is as practiced throughout history.
Aw, fugu, you can come up with better sources than that.
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Yes, I can, but I'm not looking for sources right now, I'm having a mild discussion on the issue .
If you want, I bet I can dig up bunches of LDS apologetics sites that claim in stirring tones that not only is the priesthood the same as it was back then, but that archeologists are willfully ignoring abundant evidence that its so .
Oh, and they'll likely find a way to blame the "disappearance of the priesthood" on atheists.
Actually, the whole disappearance of the priesthood thing has always somewhat amused me because, y'know, jewish people still have it and have had it for a few thousand years, now . . .
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I will say no more as I have broken my own rule not to discuss religion.
KoM--I do not do anything just for a heavenly reward, as I gather you don't either. I am confident you do much good in your life so accept my apologies and I'm outta here for a while.
You all seem like real good people, maybe I just need some good salty sea air to clear my head.
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quote:I bet I can dig up bunches of LDS apologetics sites that claim in stirring tones that not only is the priesthood the same as it was back then, but that archeologists are willfully ignoring abundant evidence that its so
And if you did, they'd be wrong. So what's your point?
I mean, I can see disputations regarding evidence of things like Book of Mormon historicity. But related to the LDS understanding of priesthood?
Especially since a large part of our understanding of it it is that it wasn't held by many throughout history and there were continual restorations and declines of its power and efficacy.
Now if you could authoritatively disprove (disprove not point out an absence of evidence) the historicity of Melchizadek, then that might be something.
Now on to:
quote:Oh, and they'll likely find a way to blame the "disappearance of the priesthood" on atheists.
Now you are just being silly. The godless atheists are to blame for the communist threat. Duh! The priesthood had already been restored when they came around.
quote:Actually, the whole disappearance of the priesthood thing has always somewhat amused me because, y'know, jewish people still have it and have had it for a few thousand years, now
Do you really not understand the LDS position on this or are you just playing around?
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I've heard a number of statements on the subject by LDS people; mostly I'm just playing around in that post, though. The repeated winks and tongue-sticking-outs should help .
However, that the LDS church considers the Aaronic priesthood, in particular, to have needed restoring does not exactly persuade me, given what Jewish records and traditions exist.
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quote: quote: A letter from the governing First Presidency of the Church was read in Sunday meetings worldwide in June 1995, urging Church members to submit for temple ordinances the names of their own ancestors, and not the names of deceased celebrities or Jewish holocaust victims
So the information was given to the general body of the church. I still don't think they would excommunicate someone for submitting a name, but people should really know better. I also think that maybe this information should be repeated every now and then so that people who may have missed it last time or who weren't even members of the church at the time will know this as well.
That information is widely available. It's in "A Member's Guide to Temple and Family History Work", which is the basic instruction guide for why and how to do family history, available to anyone. It's in our leadership manuals. It's something that I've known for a long time, and I've encountered it many times. In my experience, it's something we regularly teach the family history consultants (those who teach the members about family history) and all family history centre staff.
Of course it's still possible that it's not being taught or brought up often enough in some areas. It's also possible that some people don't hear it. There are people who will hear only what they want to hear and ignore the rest.
We do what we can to make sure it's a known policy. Same as asking permission of the closest living relative when we're seeking after doing temple work for anyone who was born in the last 95 years.
Unfortunately, we can't control the actions of every single member.
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quote:Unfortunately, we can't control the actions of every single member.
You know, I thought of a really, truly sarcastic reply to this, but it's a bit too much like shooting fish in a barrel. So I'll try for humour instead.
Mere sandbagging. Everyone knows that the Mormons are a vast, shadowy conspiracy, programming their drones ("members", as they are called) to the last jot, tittle, and cup of green Jello. Watch out when they claim that they don't control their members; that's when their attack teams of specially trained "missionaries" are about to go on another rampage of door-knocking and assimilating.
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quote:KoM--sorry I misread your post. I'm saddened by such a position in life. What do you have to look forward to? Why bother doing anything if nothing matters once you are dead? It certainly negates my motivation to do good. It seems you would rather be a memory for a period of time than to be an eternal being. Probably a lot easier that way since there is no accountability for what you do with this life and no need to improve upon what you are it would seem.
compared to...
quote:You only do good because you expect a heavenly reward? That is utterly disgusting. But kindly do not judge me by your own low moral standards. I do good, or try to, because that is the kind of person I want to be. That you need a fantasy father to stand at your shoulder and make you do your homework says a lot more about you than about me.
Is rocks and guns, man. Hammer threw a rock, KoM-as on nearly all religious issues-fired a gun. You're as smug and haughty about your religion as the people you criticize.
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"Hammer threw a rock, KoM-as on nearly all religious issues-fired a gun."
I disagree, Jeff. Speaking as one of the people insulted by Hammer's comments, I don't think KoM's reply was any more insulting. He still shouldn't've said it, but I don't think we're talking about anything that's an order of magnitude worse. Hammer's post was classic "holier-than-thou, I'm sorry for you poor atheists" God-speak; KoM's reply was classic "I'm an angry atheist and you're a stupid-head" vitriol. The two are pretty equivalent.
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