quote:But do we need to sell them and tell them what to conform to? I think that's what this thread is really about.
Most of this thread has been about how rediculous it is to buy into non-conformity when everyone else buys into conformity just fine, thank you. I see little difference. Let kids be kids.
Now, if they're 35 and still living in mom's basement talking about how punk they are and how "the system" will never keep them down- then we have a real problem. This rarely happens, however.
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quote: Now, if they're 35 and still living in mom's basement talking about how punk they are and how "the system" will never keep them down- then we have a real problem. This rarely happens, however.
I know someone like this! *worries* And he worships Michael Moore.
Oh, and for the record, I am a corn flake.
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posted
I love being a nonconformist. I wear a cloak as my winter coat. I grin crazily when everyone else is frowning. I weep when people are rejoicing. On September 11, when people returned to their faiths, I stopped believing in a benevolent God. When people waved flags, I wrote an article criticizing America. When those around me are proper, I speak in sensual metaphors. When they are crass, I become straight-laced. I don't trust popular opinion, and I don't like fitting in with the people around me. I actually fear it.
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quote: Calling them "stupid" for it wont change the fact that some kids find some kind of meaning in hating everything.
If you're referring to what I said, I called them stupid for wearing black trenchcoats outside in the middle of a hot, Florida summer afternoon, not for being Goth.
And besides, it was a joke. Didn't we decide that we don't need to add j/k after posts?
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Folks will do what they want to do. I don't care as long as they don't run around wearing white sheets. Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
My attitude is, and always has been, do what you like. If it happens to be something that conforms, oh well. If it happens to be something that doesn't conform, oh well, again.
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posted
Megan, I like the term aconformist for that; I forget who came up with it above. My question is, is selling mass-marketed nonconformity really entirely pointless, or are they still getting the basic idea in these impressionable teens' heads so that when they grow up a bit and realize their previous nonconformist years were spent being a conformist to mass-marketed nonconformity, they'll then firstly laugh at themselves but also go on to become aconformists, which are actually the real nonconformists? (Gah! Too many words with that ending in one sentence!) Does the marketing work in that sense?
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posted
First of all, I don't think all teens believe themselves (or want to be) non-conformists. A lot of things that used to be quite non-conformist have, over time, become trends and thereby things to which people conform (e.g., chains on clothing, multiple piercings, etc.). As to whether "selling mass-market conformity" is really pointless, I would say that the people doing the marketing are doing their jobs--get as many people as possible to spend money on their products (or their clients' products). For them, conformity is good (because it makes a particular product a "winner"). There have always been (and will always be) things that are in fashion; they change from decade to decade, and get recycled. I don't think there's any getting around that.
Uh...here ends the ramble. Let me know if any of that made sense, separately, or together. Posts: 4077 | Registered: Jun 2003
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True non-conformists are those who recognise that they occaisionally/often conform, and don't really care all that much.
AND
They are people whose sense of self is developed enough to the point that when they conform they still feel original.
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posted
I like it, Teshi, but I honestly still have to wonder about the value placed on non-conformity (and, subsequently, the negative value placed on conformity). Why, exactly, has non-conformity become such a virtue?
I'll admit, I do like to do things for my own reasons rather than for other's reasons. I'm not sure how that works into the idea of non-conformity, though.
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quote: BRIAN: Good morning. FOLLOWERS: A blessing! A blessing! A blessing!... BRIAN: No. No, please! Please! Please listen. I've got one or two things to say. FOLLOWERS: Tell us. Tell us both of them. BRIAN: Look. You've got it all wrong. You don't need to follow me. You don't need to follow anybody! You've got to think for yourselves. You're all individuals! FOLLOWERS: Yes, we're all individuals! BRIAN: You're all different! FOLLOWERS: Yes, we are all different! DENNIS: I'm not.
I love Dennis--platonically!! His line is my favorite in the movie.
posted
I was one of those kids who (did not tap into the fashion end of things but) listened to the music and preached the evils of our current society, To some extent i still do. Nathan Gray made an interesting point in the liner notes of his bands first full length. he pointed out that not too many forty year olds will be "out on the floor, f**king shit up". Hardcore, to which he was referring to, is a youth driven movement. It's not meant to be accepted by all walks of life. Even those of similar political beliefs and "more mature" methods of expressing and practicing said faiths and beliefs, are not meant to tap into the hardcore culture to which he's referring. It's not for everybody, it doesn't last forever, and it is not meant for the mass market. Do I think it's inappropriate to purchase your entire wardrobe at Hot Topic for the sole purpose of standing out? Yes. Do i think that these kids make their purchases with that outlined agenda? No. They are reflecting their disdain for the current fashion trends set by the powers that be in society. You comment on the frequency you see these outfits, but compared to the amount of GAP and OLD NAVY merchandise, it barely makes up 3% of the fashion you see kids wear today. Does it go unseen? Of course not, you remember it and comment on it because of the "obscenity" of the statement. It stands out. You can probably count how many hc kids you encountered this morning. You could probably describe those 4 kids in your own high school. Can you give an accurate headcount of those wearing more conservative duds from A&F or the Gap? My guess is no. These kids are choosing their wardrobe in an attempt to be noticed, not so much to show how weird and different they are, but in my experience, by getting somebody's attention you will then have better luck engaging in discussion. This movement was created to promote and bring about change in our current society. It will forever evolve and change leaving current members in the dust, as they grow up and grow old. It's not designed for everybody, but for the ambitious few. It may not change your mind or bring your attention toward the issue it intended to. It does however reach many people. Still very much a "miniscule" amount, but every head turned is a success in the eyes of these kids and others involved in that culture and movement. We all fear what is different to some degree. Whether we act based on our fears is something else entirely, but of course you will be made uncomfortable and view it as ridiculous if you are comfortable in your current station in life, but for those looking for quick drastic change, this lifestyle presents such opportunities. By first changing their clothes to reflect their mood/outlook on their current society, kids can later engage others in discussions to address the issues most troublesome to them. That's not to say that is the motivation for all, but it is for many.
i have not reread what i typed and fear it may not be coherent, but i have spoken with many people about this issue, some in the movement, some who dress in the fashions addressed here, and some who have no desire whatsoever to tap into that culture, and it drains me each and everytime.
that is all...
[ March 02, 2005, 04:08 PM: Message edited by: Ben ]
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posted
"It's not designed for everybody, but for the ambitious few."
I don't know how "few" you're talking about nowadays. In my day, we didn't have Hot Topic stores. If we wanted to wear dark purple bodices over ripped fishnets, we had to rip the fishnets ourselves.
Seriously, man, standing out doesn't take ambition. It takes a willingness to be seen, which is not the same thing.
I'm speaking here as a guy who was once a kid who was heavily into the punk scene, but never dressed that way because, frankly, I looked pretty ridiculous stuffing my bloated body into black leather and dying my hair purple. The look's just an ad, a shorthand; it doesn't mean a darn thing on its own.
quote:Why, exactly, has non-conformity become such a virtue?
I think it's that people are realizing (and have been for some decades) that it's growing increasingly difficult to keep any logical adaptive control over the 'accepted' (ie. conformist) ideas that have come to pervade Western culture, because the culture change is happening so fast and also so globally with the help of modern information technology. That was an awkward paragraph. Let me explain.
Think for even a moment about how many status-centred and made-for-the-purpose-of-a-profit goods are out there which are potentially unsafe and/or harmful to people and the world at large. It's at the point where humans as a whole have long passed the point of being able to stop the economic idea of working for profit rather than comfortable subsistence and/or worldwide cooperation in survival. Aside from economics, there's countless religions which ask for blind faith in their laws, and cultural traditions which no longer are adaptive but which people are reluctant to lay down etc etc etc...
I think nonconformism is thought of as a virtue these days because it tries to get people to think about the ultimate consequences of their actions in the world beyond the status/social realm -- a realm which *can* be changed if people change it collectively (which is another point of no return humans are dangerously close to passing) -- and to make choices based on educated contemporarily applicable knowledge rather than traditional social norms which may or may not be beneficial at the present time. At least I hope that's what nonconformism is trying to do. (Yeah, I know there's kids in high schools who just want to look different by dressing in black...)
posted
i too was heavily involved in the scene (probably in a much later incarnation of the scene, old man) but did not dress the part. But did not feel that those who did go the fashion end of it were posers, but rather felt they needed that extra step. i don't fault it just because i didn't do it myself.
[ March 02, 2005, 01:38 PM: Message edited by: Ben ]
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posted
"But did not feel that those who did go the fashion end of it were posers..."
It's even simpler than that. I think the vast majority of people who do go the fashion end of it aren't doing it necessarily to fit in, but because they think it's a cool look that will help them stand out.
On me, it was not a cool look, so I didn't. If it had been, I would have.
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posted
The reason rebels are young is because they are relatively powerless - they do not build the system.
A middle-aged rebel is ridiculous because he is just as powerless then as he was as a teenager. That's not punk rock - that's pathetic. Tie your shoes and go build something, man.
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posted
Ben, I don't necessarily think there's something inherently wrong with wanting to stand-out, through fashion or anything else, I wasn't saying it was ridiculous to buy all your clothes at hot topic. I hung out with a lot of the kinds of kids I'm talking about here in high school, I know a lot of them, and what got me is not that they were wearing clothes to stand out or listening to music to be different, what got me is the reason they claimed to do these things was to stick it to the man, so they bought Korn from soundtrack at 16.99 a pop, and bought at another chain store to avoid corporate America. I don't know about the history of the movement, but all of those who I did talk to about it, that's what they wanted to show, they thought our system was broken and that all of those sheep were blindly feeding the machine through consumerism, and they thus consumed all the products from that machine that were marketed to show rebellion.
posted
I think that is a good observation, Lady Jane.
I'd like to add that I think it might also be that teenagers lack a larger perspective than adults on many levels, and so their acting out against things they percieve as wrong with the world does not get very far. In fact, as talked about in this thread, it may very well support what they want to be fighting against. They simply don't have the experience yet to make appropriate distinctions.
If they had the perspective, maybe they'd work towards an education that would get them the knowledge and power they need to enact change as they grow older.
Please note, this is a pretty general statement and not meant to apply to all youth out there. I know there are plenty of young people who have initiated great causes.
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posted
Ah, but the middle-aged rebelman wouldn't *be* powerless, or ridiculous, if there were a whole lot of others like him nearby. Mass-marketed nonconformism (if enough people join in) is also a way people who want to stick it to the man and make a change can do so without losing the comfort of having a support group, which is a major advantage of the conformists.
Also, the standing-out/clothing factor probably is more important for youth as they aren't generally taken as seriously as adults and perhaps they feel this might help them publicize their ideals when older people won't listen by forcing the older people to see them in their symbolic clothing and know what they think anyway?
And, ummm...Tom, I don't really 'get' your reproductive colouration comment. Should I? (So much for first impressions of intelligence! I knew it couldn't last...)
Edit: And yes, I think youth also lack the perspective like you say, which relates to my idea above of them realizing later that they actually supported 'the man' by buying the products but then as they gain that perspective changing their actions to better reflect their position as well.
quote:Ah, but the middle-aged rebelman wouldn't *be* powerless, or ridiculous, if there were a whole lot of others like him nearby.
Numbers does not equal power. If he's living in his parents' basement and spending his pocket money on CDs and Hot Topic t-shirts, he's still powerless.
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quote:Also, the standing-out/clothing factor probably is more important for youth as they aren't generally taken as seriously as adults
Technically this has nothing to do with the position I came in here to advocate but then, Hatracks never been about sticking to your point . If a kid (by the way, I count myself as a kid) wants to be treated as an adult, brazen fashion statments aren't the way to go. Not that I'm saying you're necessarily wrong about this being the reason, just that it's not a very good one.
posted
No, Jane, then he'd be one of those teen rebels that's still a teen rebel and never woke up and gained perspective and realized he was actually being a conformist and so forth. But I know what you mean!
Plenty o' middle-aged rebelmen who spend money on other things and work to collectively introduce ideas of social change can sure move things along though... (regardless of in whose basement they reside)
Edit: And Hobbes, no, it's not a great reason. More likely it's that they really think they're promoting nonconformism that way, or else that nonconformism seems 'cool' to them and they do what it takes to be cool, not worrying about whether they're really upholding so-called 'cool' values, but worrying about whether their cool friends think they are. Which is unfortunate...
posted
Hey Hobbes. Do you have the ability to turn your signature on and off as needed? This is off topic, but I've read posts by you before and sometimes the smiley at the signature just seemed to conflict a great deal with the mood and emotions in your post and/or those around it, and thus came seemed out of place every now and then. Just curious...
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posted
Well I type it everytime, so I suppose I could choose not to type it, but for 8000 and some posts it's been at the bottom of every post I've made, plus I do it at every forum, so I don't think I would ever choose to do that.
quote: If he's living in his parents' basement and spending his pocket money on CDs and Hot Topic t-shirts, he's still powerless.
I don't know if that's true. Sure, there is dignity in striking out on your own, but I don't know how important it is. I mean, is there really that much of a difference between living in your parents basement and getting a cushy job based upon some morally arbitary relation, family or church or lodge or frat? This is murky water for me. My decision was easy, my parents were broke and didn't have a basement. But if they did, I've worked so many bad jobs for so many years, I'm not sure that any of them have improved the quality of my character.
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posted
Generally speaking, stereotypes are usually based on observations of real people.
Middle aged men who still live with their parents are more likely than their self sufficient counterparts to be slackers who contribute very little to society. As a result, they are not going to have much power to enact any change.
Certainly this does not mean it is true in all cases.
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posted
i agree with Irami, i think. That man you observe to be a shiftless, lazy, leech, may in fact be involved in an organization or program that is quite successful in bringing about change. I may not feel that his current living situation is what i desire, but it's not necessarily as pathetic as some think.
[ March 02, 2005, 04:11 PM: Message edited by: Ben ]
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posted
Geez Tom. Everytime this subject comes up you have to go waving around your "I wuz hardcore" cock. Give it a rest man.
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posted
The system will not be destroyed by those trying to tear it down. It must collapse under its own weight. The pig who catches and releases his kid and friends smoking a joint does more for legalization than NORML. The lazy, inefficient worker damages corporate America more than ten protestors.
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I know someone like this! *worries* And he worships Michael Moore. ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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. If a kid (by the way, I count myself as a kid) wants to be treated as an adult, brazen fashion statments aren't the way to go. Not that I'm saying you're necessarily wrong about this being the reason, just that it's not a very good one.![[Dont Know]](graemlins/dontknow.gif)
