posted
No, not either/or. The power resides in the people, who elect leaders to exercise that power according to law. I pledge my allegiance to the republic, which is all the people as a cohesive nation formed to protect liberty and justice for each of its members.
quote:edit: Based on our founding principles, liberty could only be maintained by actively being on guard against government and popular groups, not by promising to be subserviant to them. I did mention the Federalist Papers. I agree with them in large part. I'm not advocating anarchy, but I am advocating not acting like it's okay that we teach our children that their job as citizens is to do what they're told.
I'm not advocating subservience to government either. But liberty does come with the responsibility to act for the greater good of the people as a whole. In my mind, that's allegiance.
posted
Am I seriously the only person who has a problem with this? I don't know, I figured that the failure of the US to live up to Enlightenment principles (or other it's population to even know what these are or why they're important) and its tendency towards authoritarian ones, as evidenced by the McCarthy Hearings among so many other things is a huge deal.
Edit: And do you really think that's what's being taught in our classrooms by the pledge?
quote:And do you really think that's what's being taught in our classrooms by the pledge?
No, because I don't think it's teaching "do what you're told," but rather "be loyal to this country and it's government." The two are very different things.
posted
I'm bothered by the way I put that. What I meant to say was am I the only one who sees this as happening and thinks that it's a big problem? I wasn't trying to say that other people saw it happening and didn't have a problem with it, but rather trying to figure out if I was the only person who sees it that way, but the way I said it didn't get that across at all.
Homie, You and I don't see this the same way. That's cool. I think that either pledging to obey or to have loyalty towards the government or a group of people is not consistent with what our country was meant to be or what it should be. I was kind of asking a two part question. First, do other people see the Pledge of Allegiance as teaching these things and second, do they also have a problem with it.
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quote:I think that either pledging to obey or to have loyalty towards the government or a group of people is not consistent with what our country was meant to be or what it should be.
I agree pledging to obey is inconsistent with what our country should be, but loyalty towards the government, bearing ever in mind that we have the ultimate control of that government, is necessary. Without the imlicit agreeement to abide by those decisions we don't like, democracy can't work and true freedom can't exist.
posted
First: Of course a flag of the country can be displayed in a classroom.
Second: In Canada, the National Anthem is played/sung every morning. The word "God" is in the anthem ("God keep our land, glorious and free"). Students don't have to sing it but everyone is obliged to stand quietly. As far as I know, not many students have outwardly protested to have the anthem removed from the morning regimen.
I think that because you don't have to, and it's not called a "pledge of allegiance", it is far more accepted. It's also generally understood that God does not refer necessarily to a God in particular, only your God (some people disagree- of course, it's clear which God it was intended to originally reflect).
I would like to see "God" replaced with something more inclusive, but I have never not respected the anthem (and when I attended a Christian school in England I did not say the Lord's Prayer in the morning so I'm not adverse to 'being different').
The name of the Pledge of Allegiance and the vow-like way it is usually revered is perhaps the cause of its downfall. If children weren't required (or even forced) to say it, there would be less controversy. The same effect could be reached if not saying it didn't equate with denial of the United States. If I don't sing the national anthem, it doesn't mean I'm not happy to be living in Canada or proud of many aspects of the country.
The word God is perhaps slightly more obvious in the Pledge, being that the country is called "under" God, rather than being "kept", but it is only one word. It is a result of American insistance and reveration (is that even a word?) of the vow of the Pledge that has turned it into something that causes controversy.
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