posted
I agree with ElJay, dkw, Bok, and all them folks. Tacky, but not really insulting.
And I like Zeugma's example and reasoning.
Dags, could you clarify something for me, please?
When you said
quote: For example, if a doctor said to me, "you'll be home before the end of Ramadan" or "by Yom Kippur," it wouldn't insult me. But it might not give me any useful information, because I'm not exactly sure when those holidays are celebrated each year.
and then
quote: Christmas has a definite date.
you didn't actually mean to imply that Ramadan and Yom Kippur don't have definite dates, did you? Because they surely DO, and on calendars that have been around a whole lot longer than the Gregorian.
Moreover, with the Net, it is a task of a minute or two (maximum) to determine the corresponding Gregorian date on a given year.
quote: Muslims do have a holiday in december.
Actually, rav, that's not true. Eid (the end of Ramadan) fell in November this year, and will again next year. In 2006, it will be in October. Since the Muslim calendar is a pure lunar calendar, which does not get synced up with the solar calendar, holidays with specific lunar dates can occur pretty much anywhere in the solar year.
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quote:you didn't actually mean to imply that Ramadan and Yom Kippur don't have definite dates, did you? Because they surely DO, and on calendars that have been around a whole lot longer than the Gregorian.
Moreover, with the Net, it is a task of a minute or two (maximum) to determine the corresponding Gregorian date on a given year.
Of course, but when used as a reference point in time, they don't convey meaningful information to people who don't use that date every day. Easter doesn't have a definite date in that system, and as such is not useful in providing a reference point in time, except to mean "sometime in early spring."
quote:I don't think it is, in this case. Your statement that my comment is in reference to is pure ignorance. And I'd say that about anyone who thinks that someone who is marginalized on a daily basis won't feel further marginalized when a comment that distinguishes them from mainstream culture is made in reference to them or their culture.
"Pure ignorance," huh? You said, "You're a white christian heterosexual male, so you have absolutely no clue what I'm talking about, and since you have no clue, just assume I'm blowing hot air." First, you don't know what I'm assuming about you. You don't speak for me, you don't know what I think, and my words do not convey anything other than my opinion about your conclusion. Second, if you are truly taking the position that I as person type X cannot have any clue what you're talking about, then you are frankly bigoted.
"You've pretty well proven in discussions about this that you really don't understand people of marginalized cultures can feel further marginalized when people do things like this, that are unthinkingly harmful."
You're response
"So not agreeing with you means I don't understand?
It is possible to understand and still not agree."
My response
"I don't think it is, in this case. Your statement that my comment is in reference to is pure ignorance. And I'd say that about anyone who thinks that someone who is marginalized on a daily basis won't feel further marginalized when a comment that distinguishes them from mainstream culture is made in reference to them or their culture."
My position- If you do not think that people of marginalized cultures can be made to felt further marginalized by statements that are not intended to be harmful, then you are ignorant.
What is NOT my position- That a white christian heterosexual male cannot feel marginalized.
What IS my position- It is LESS LIKELY, that a christian, heterosexual, white male, will feel marginalized, in this country, to anything like the degree that someone not of those cultures can experience. Further, a member of those cultures will NEVER experience the marginalization because of his culture, on a day to day basis, that someone not of those cultures, often experience on a day to day basis, BECAUSE of their culture. It IS my position that, just as it is less likely that a white person can understand what it means to be a black man in this country in terms of racism, it is also less likely that a white christian heterosexual male can understand how people who do not fit that description are marginalized, (often in very subtle ways).
If thats being bigoted, fine. I have no problems with making true statements that recognize that people of different cultures experience life differently.
I apologize for my initial statement on that matter. It was very poorly written.
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quote:It is LESS LIKELY, that a christian, heterosexual, white male, will feel marginalized, in this country, to anything like the degree that someone not of those cultures can experience. Further, a member of those cultures will NEVER experience the marginalization because of his culture, on a day to day basis, that someone not of those cultures, often experience on a day to day basis, BECAUSE of their culture. It IS my position that, just as it is less likely that a white person can understand what it means to be a black man in this country in terms of racism, it is also less likely that a white christian heterosexual male can understand how people who do not fit that description are marginalized, (often in very subtle ways).
If you think being non-christian, homosexual, non-white, or non-white are the only possible ways you can be a minority, I disagree 100%. These aren't even the most important cultural minorities. Have you ever been a southerner in the north or a northerner in the south? Have you ever been a city-dweller in the country or a country-folk in the city? Have you ever come from a weird family, or have an unusual physical feature, or have strange talents or disabilities? Have you even belonged to a clique in high school? Have you ever been male somewhere where most people were female? Any of these are important social and cultural minorities - most are MORE significant cultural differences than the four you mentioned.
I'd like to meet the person who has NEVER been in the minority, because I have not yet. It's fairly safe to say everyone here knows painfully well what it is like to be in a minority.
quote:So intent is all that matters? Or do you agree that if some harm occurs, even if it wasn't intended, that harm still occurred?
Like, for example, if I meant to save your baby from a robber but accidentally shot both the baby and the robber, you'd still have the right to be mad at me?
But if I meant to wish you a happy holiday, and instead reminded you that you are a second-class citizen in a society which remains largely ignorant -- even dismissive -- of your customs and traditions, you have only yourself to blame if you're hurt?
Tom, intent IS what matters... when it comes to mere insults. Shooting a baby is not a matter of insults - it's a matter of killing. But if I meant to complement your baby, and instead insulted it by accident, you should not be mad. It would be a mistake on my part, but one that says only that I don't understand how my words will be interpretted, not one that says I actually don't respect you.
Similarly, if you take a given comment as a reminder of your own opinion that you are a second class citizen, and that comment was not intended to say that, then it IS only yourself that you have to blame. If I don't actually consider you a second class citizen and I don't actually intend to disrespect you, then I haven't disrespected you, except in your mind where you choose to take it as a disrespect.
posted
But most of those "unintentional insults" could be avoided if the perpetrator actually paused a couple of seconds before speaking and *Thought* about what they were about to say. You mention accidentally insulting a baby...what about the stand-up comic standard "When's the baby due?" to a woman who is not pregnant?
Does a woman on the chunky side have a right to be insulted by the assumption? I think so. And women often are. If the person (who had no idea one way or the other if there actually *was* a baby due) had stopped and thought, they would have realized an assumption like that could prove deadly.
In regards to the topic at hand, the announcer had even *less* of an excuse than the baby-assumer above...they KNEW FOR A FACT that the guests were Muslim, and obviously practicing given their mention of Allah, and therefore had little to no excuse for such a tacky comment.
quote:Again, you're coming from the perspective of someone in the majority. Muslims are a marginalized people in our country right now.
Paul, I hate to tell you this, but you're wrong on this one.
Yes, I am a Christian. But I'm not living in a country where Christians represent the majority. I live in Sri Lanka. Buddhists comprise about 69% of the population, followed by Hindus at 14%, Muslims at 7% and Christians at 7%.
My husband is a Muslim, and what I wrote about what my reaction would be is pretty much what his reaction is when something similar happens to him. Which it does.
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quote:Does a woman on the chunky side have a right to be insulted by the assumption? I think so.
Do they have a "right"? Yes, anyone can get insulted whenever they want for whatever reason they want.
What I'm saying is that it's their own fault if they choose to exercise that right when it isn't necessary. What benefit does it serve you to get mad at someone who didn't mean you harm for saying something that he didn't intend to say? What is the use?
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Tacky, but not really insulting.
