posted
Noemon, I don't really have any proof. I just have watched both of them. For all fallow's obscurity, his viewpoints on certain issues are pretty clear. They seem quite different from skillery's. That is my main basis for feeling certain.
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
I have never had a problem understanding skillery, and I have never seen him deliberately offend anyone.
I doubt they are one and the same.
I wouldn't say fallow was offensive most of the time, despite what TomD would imply of my intelligence because of that .
But he was offensive, sometimes very much so, in a very passive-aggressive manner.
Sometimes his statements made no sense at all, and that is why he would say them....to make light of a situation, of to express his disinterest in whatever was being discussed.
I just never saw the point of expressing disinterest...if you aren't interested at all, why bother posting anything?
quote: I have never seen him diliberatly offend anyone.
Hmmmm, I think I have. I mean, it *is* conceivable that "fallow" could be a play-identity for skillery. It just doesn't match what I have seen.
quote: I just never saw the point of expressing disinterest...if you aren't interested at all, why bother posting anything?
Remember my cat theory? Ever seen a cat play with a mouse? The cat doesn't care about the mouse, but finds the mouse highly entertaining--especially when it is at the cat's mercy.
posted
Is it just me or does it seem like half the posts on this thread were all written by the same person, asking and answering his own questions? Every once in a while I get a eerie feeling that someone is just screwing around with pseudonyms and my gut is screaming on this thread.
::sits down and enjoys a paranoia break and gets out popcorn to enjoy with the show::
Posts: 9871 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
All right, people - I love you all dearly, but get the hell over it. Fallow - Mike in real life -came to Hatrack to play. Eeeh gads! That is so different from 99.9% of us, right? You all may not like his style of playing, but bashing on him is not oaky-doakey, either. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black . . . Posts: 5609 | Registered: Jan 2003
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I was just wondering -- I've only known of fallow since he was fallow -- not back when he was flish. Was he much different then? Or posted about the same?
posted
We e-mail, farmgirl- He's okay. He definitely hits the obscure side of things on the 'rack, but he's perfectly starightforward in e-,mail - and like I said, I'm not around the 'rack a whole lot to see what other people might be referring to, but I've never felt insulted or offended by him. I knew him back as flish and we started e-mailing then - he never said why he stopped posting the first time, but we continued to e-mail.
He's a normal, average kind of guy. No wierder than anyone else of us that spends time posting on the 'rack - he just has a style that's a little more . . . interesting? Provocative?
I think if he said what he said in the sort of "everyday" language most of use around here, there wouldn't be the suspicion that he is somehow trolling -
And, for all I know, I could be all wrong -
I don't think bashing him - especially when he isn't even here to answer - is okay. And if that is all this thread will be about, I'm happy to remove it. I'd hate to throw salt in so many wounds . . .
Thanks for checking, FG. I'm sorry you couldn't find a calm club with some good blues or jazz last night -
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posted
Huh. I have to say that I've always enjoyed Fallow's unique brand of weirdness. But then again, I'm weird myself. I've never had a problem with him, and I'm sorry to hear that others have. Does anyone actually know if he's been banned, or is he just taking a break?
posted
So perhaps that's where I'm confused, Bev - where have his jokes and playing crossed the line?
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posted
A poster asked for help supporting a friend who had recently had a very traumatic experience. fallow was less than sympathetic.
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posted
I have also emailed fallow -- aka flish, filleted, whatever he was calling himself this incarnation -- off and on for a while, Shan. And while it is absolutely true that he is far more direct in email (and made it clear that he is obscure and incomprehensible on the 'Rack with malice aforethought), he is not a whole lot less offensive.
So claiming that he is somehow the injured party here is, I'm sorry to say, laughable. The main reason why most of his truly offensive posts didn't linger for detailed analysis was through no choice of his own; whistle-blowing is not something I take lightly, but it is sometimes necessary. And either I was clearly not the only one offended enough to blow the whistle on him, or our wonderful and exceedingly patient mods were keeping an eye on him. Because a number of his posts that I never saw were edited out with a pithy comment from our Janitor.
I can only imagine what was there prior.
Yeah, many of us come to play. But those who do so maliciously are usually asked to leave.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
So, this is good information to have, rivka. Thanks for sharing.
And I didn't claim him as the injured party. I did state that bashing him in his absence was not okay. I think that's only fair.
I also stated that I am not here enough to see all that goes on - and that with deleted threads it's a little hard to get an accurate picture.
Just your frendly poster, I am - gathering information - and preferring to have it delivered in a way that allows for thoughtful communication -
It is quite conceivable that I have never been exposed to a side of him that you were - that does happen. But I prefer concrete and specific information as compared to generalizations and stone-throwing, which some have done in this case. It's something I try not to do - albeit unsuccessfully from time to time. But I do my best. And I don't think it's wrong to say "Hey! That's not okay - "
Two wrongs don't make a right, right?
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posted
Shan, the problem I have with getting specific is that many targets of fallow's are probably blissfully unaware, since the posts were deleted before they could see them. I'm very hesitant to change that.
I think most of the people who have made negative comments about fallow are simply answering the "why" that you and others asked. But possibly also getting a bit perturbed by the fact that quite a number of posters have made comments to the effect that he didn't do anything wrong?
Honestly, I was surprised how many chances fallow was given.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
Makes perfect sense to me, rivka, and I appreciate your thoughtfulness for those around you. I don't know - and I guess I really don't need to know.
(((rivka)))
thanks for being as up front as you were able to - Posts: 5609 | Registered: Jan 2003
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quote: So perhaps that's where I'm confused, Bev - where have his jokes and playing crossed the line?
You'll just have to take my word for it, because I don't feel it would be appropriate to drag it out here, especially if we are trying to be respectful to fallow. Just know that the emails were recent while the "crossing the line" happened awhile ago.
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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I first met Fallow at the Wenches' Tavern, and I hijacked his character when he left it slumped in the doorway with the screen door slamming on his lifeless body. We took turns hijacking each other's characters, placing them in increasingly outrageous situations. It was fun.
I never thought that Fallow's purpose in the Tavern story might have been to derail the thread as was his now-apparent intention in so many other threads.
Looking back at some of his posts directed at me, I can see where he may have been trying to skewer me, but he always left enough leeway that I could choose to not be offended. Once that choice was made there were all kinds of hidden meanings to discover (or imagine?) and witty retorts to spin from his wide-open posting style.
If a member is harboring malice, I think I prefer the passive aggressive posting approach with calculated forethought over an all-out frontal attack. With passive agressive you can turn it, tweak it, play it, or toss it.
posted
I only had one really bad incident with him. And I managed to upset him enough to make him reply straightfoward...he cussed me out, pretty bad, for a discussion he wasn't even part of in the first place.
He then said he had been joking. After I went off on him, probably worse than I have ever gone off at anyone here before, or since.
I took him at his word, even though I doubted him, and he never screwed with me again. My main problem was that was all friendly with me late night, then he turned on me for no reason at all.
I hated that.
I didn't ask to have him banned, but I did see some posts he had that were commented on by the mods...on more than one occasion. I also saw a few that he deleted after uproar that the mods never even saw.
I am sure that the fallow you got to know via e-mail was a much different person than the one we saw here. I use to just tune him out since he was never really rude to me again, unless he was asking me a direct question.
That didn't happen often...
I hope that he is OK...but he can't say he wasn't warned.
I am not trying to bash him, particularly since I don't have a problem with him being here....but I don't have a problem with him being asked to leave, either.
posted
OK, I did some searches and I think I see at least one incident that he was completely out of line. The person he attacked is one of my favorites on Hatrack, and it is obvious that Fallow provoked him/her to a fairly unreasonable point.
I think Shan--and to some extent, myself--only see Fallow in his silly mode. We don't see the attack mode and therefore have formed a very different opinion of him.
Fallow usually post around the same time I do--at about 1:00 am to 6:00 am in the morning. So maybe I have a special fondness for him because he is always one of the first people to reply to my posts. (That is also why I like Rivka so much... well, that and the fact we're Bruins! )
Granted some times he torches me with comments like:
quote:beren,
anyone ever told you you're a low-down gutterballing twit when it comes to visual aesthetics? I mean that in the nicest possible way.
But he also cracks me up with stuff like:
quote:
Dagonee: If A and B were trying to out run a bear, would it be immoral for B to kick A in the leg?
Fallow: what if they kicked the bear in the knees?
**everyone ignores Fallow**
Fallow: Doesn't a bear have knees?
For me, Fallow is a reminder that I shouldn't take myself too seriously. He can get too annoying at times, but then I just tune him out and focus on other important things, like flirting with Kama.
quote:I think of fallow's posts as intelligence tests. If you DIDN'T find them remarkably insulting most of the time, you weren't smart enough to understand that he was being insulting.
What if I'm not smart enough to see this post as being insulting?
Maybe a person can recognize the insult and choose not to be insulted? Nah, that would be too much work.
Posts: 4116 | Registered: Apr 2002
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Well I certainly didn't take umbrage at his comment regarding your choice of visual aesthetics - even THOUGH he was impugning the absolute adorability of my son and me.
And you're right, Beren. I am disturbed reading what folks have shared - because it is NOT the experience I had bantering on the 'rack with Mike. I'm sorry there is that side.
Anyway - case closed. I asked, folks responded and clarified, and I thank you.
Posts: 5609 | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
"Maybe a person can recognize the insult and choose not to be insulted?"
If a person is gracious enough to ignore the insult, that doesn't magically remove the insult itself. That's like saying -- to take an extreme example -- that if someone someday learns to live with a rape, the offender isn't a rapist.
fallow was aggressively insulting and deliberately disruptive. He benefited from the fact that he couched his insults and provocations in obscure absurdities, but I hardly consider that a redeeming feature.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
In my opinion the Hatrack Forum has always been blessed with characters of many different flavors. For the most part, the Forum’s participators all have extremely high levels of intellectual, emotional and social sensitivities. You would think that this would create the perfect environment, the kind of place where everyone would be able to sense the current temperature in the room, gauge when it’s becoming to hot and act accordingly. That doesn’t always happen…does it.
There are a lot of very important people here who insult, snub and scorn on a regular basis. Be it blatant or subtle, have they earned the right or do they just abuse it?
Be they soft sly subliminal slams or cryptic comic slams, or just a snub or two, the fact remains that they’re slams. The more intelligent someone is, the better they’re at hurting others. Right? They can professionally work that cynicism and sarcasm, so subtly that if you’re in a good mood and feeling generous, you just might mistake it for good natured ribbing, or *shuttter* be stupid enough not to realize you're being insulted. Are just one or two individuals around here guilty of that? Is that always wrong?
Is it not also natural for emotionally sensitive and intelligent individuals to be easily insulted, to just seem to live on the extra sensitive side? Just because a person is emotionally sensitive doesn’t necessarily make them emotionally mature.
As with everything, balance is needed.
There are many extremes here at Hatrack. That’s what makes it so unique.
Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle." -- Plato
Posts: 3771 | Registered: Sep 2002
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quote:Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle." -- Plato
I love that quote!
Keep in mind that s lot of people here have know each other for years, in only from here. I can saythings to some people here, things that I wouldn't say to strangers because because they know me, and they will know when I am joking....or when I am not. Familiarity doesn't alway breed contempt. There is a line we still should not cross that is hard to see sometimes, and tone is hard to convay on the internet at times unless you have known each other for a while.
So what looks like an insult sometimes isn't, and when I discuss things with Dag, or Alucard, or any number of people sometimes we clash...and that is OK. Hell, the differences here are part of why I keep coming back and discussing things. Why have a discussion if everyone agrees with you?
The few times I have had a problem have always been resolved, and now some of those people are the people I really respect here, and look forward to debating.
There have been a few times when things got out of hand, but the fences were mended fairly quickly for the most part, and I am glad that I have discussed some of these "hot-button" topics with them.
Shan, if a stranger here had made the same comments about Beren, or you and your child, it wouldn't have been OK then, right? Fallow didn't care if he knew you or not, he would just jump right in, and was callous at times...to put it mildly.
I got to know him a bit better than most here, for the same reasons Beren did....I usually post quite late, so sometimes Mike/fallow and I would have almost real-time discussions. We did that so often that he would get mad when I would go to bed without saying goodnite...hence the "goodnite fallow" thread that I made for him
I hope he is alright, and I will miss the absurd fallow, but as a whole I don't feel sorry for him at all.
quote: hence the "goodnite fallow" thread that I made for him [Smile]
I wondered what that was about. I too am up late and often cross paths with fallow. He never got mad at me for going to bed.
*is jealous*
quote: Shan, if a stranger here had made the same comments about Beren, or you and your child, it wouldn't have been OK then, right? Fallow didn't care if he knew you or not, he would just jump right in, and was callous at times...to put it mildly.
This is soooo true. This is why old timers get away with so much. There is already a relationship of trust there. When there is no relationship of trust and the person is a complete stranger, you have to be a bit more cautious. Unfortunately, this puts newbies at a great disadvantage because the oldbies feel at liberty to do things to the newbie that are far more supported by Hatrack than the same behavior from a newbie to an oldbie. Just part of the initiation process.
I am also reminded of fan/verbatim/gate making outrageous claims about people we know well and expecting us to believe them! That is just foolish.
quote: But if you notice, I stopped using it after he bit my head off, in rather vulgar fashion.
I totally missed that. I can understand you not wanting to extend your neck after having your head bitten off. If someone abuses your trust, you stop giving it.
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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What's all this talk of "crossing the line"? How did he bit people's heads off in conversation? He's a jokester and harmless. Good fallow, nice fallow...
Skillery rocks too.
[ August 23, 2004, 02:11 PM: Message edited by: Telperion the Silver ]
Posts: 4953 | Registered: Jan 2004
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quote: quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- an awful lot of garbage, for a long time --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
...an accurate generalization for much of what goes on here.
How difficult this must be for you to put up with.
quote: While tolerance is the mantra of Hatrack, there seems to be very little of it.
A very common tactic of the obnoxious is to insist on tolerance for themselves and those like them, and show none of it for others. Fallow was shown extreme amounts of tolerance. Heck, given that his very second post here was directly derogatory toward OSC and Geoff Card in particular, I think he was shown rather extreme amounts of tolerance. Tolerance is not the same as license. Sounds like fallow's license to be rude finally ran out, and I, for one, think that will make this a better place.
quote: Hatrack's resident Reverend Mother turned out to be not-so-reverent. Many venerated Hatrack icons are turning out to be not-so-venerable...
Well, you guys built this place, I guess you can tear it down and rebuild it to your liking.
Yeah, make it a newbie versus oldbie thing, so that everybody who doesn't bend over backward trying to prove they're not cliquish can serve as proof that you're right. Good one.
I guess you're equating my obnoxiousness in this thread, and CT's anger in leaving, with Fallow's in general. I don't feel like a "venerated icon" and I certainly haven't asked to be thought of that way. Certainly I can't hold a candle to what CT has meant for this bulletin board, nor to how long she has been here. I don't claim to have built this place, and neither do I think I am tearing it down. All I have done is, perhaps rudely, express relief that Fallow is done tearing down a place that was special to me.
I don't want the responsibility of being held to higher standards than everyone else, which is what it seems like you're suggesting. The fact is, if you take every obnoxious post I have ever made at Hatrack, they would not match the rudeness Fallow produced in an average week. If you took every less than perfect moment CT ever had, their sum would not match the rudeness in a single average post from me. So to equate the two of us with him is patently absurd.
Double standard indeed.
FG, to answer your question, when fallow was flish, he was more obnoxious, but also more intelligible.
rivka, Dana, Elizabeth, thanks. I'm not gone. Never really have been. It is true that I have come to feel less welcome here, and Fallow is a significant part of that. But Hatrack does not owe me anything and does not need to change to be more like I want it to be. Things go in ebbs and flows around here, so I have lurked at the periphery, figuring that there would come a time when the joy would return. I think a lot of people who have been here longer than I, like kat and ak, do the same thing from time to time. If fallow's what passes for funny around here, that's okay.
Shan, you know I think the world of you. You asked if anyone had into insight as to why Fallow had been sent away. If somebody answers your question, they are unfairly dogpiling on fallow. If nobody does, then you feel like you have evidence that fallow was beloved and missed. There ain't no winning here. Nothing that is going on here is behind fallow's back; he can read the forum, and if I were banned and there was a thread like this, you can bet I would read it. I will never pretend to be fallow's friend.
Is it unclassy of me to be glad he's gone? I honestly am not sure. Maybe it is. I'll think on it, and if I decide I behaved poorly, I'll apologize.
Cursing in this thread was definitely behaving poorly, and I apologize to the forum for that. From my perspective, it was an explosion born of relief that someone who detracted from my enjoyment of this place was gone.
posted
I'm a relative newcomer and I found fallow humorous on a few occaisions but anyone that is defending him as harmless could not have seen his behaviour in the thread about that poor girl who was sexually assaulted. That one thread alone earned him enough bad karma to serve as a reason for his removal.
Posts: 2022 | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
Fallow was kind of a mixed bag for me. I don't know his past. Normally, people who post in weird ways do so for a reason. I didn't want to add to whatever misery made him the way he is.
However, there is a time and a place for things. While fallow only occasionally set off my obnoxious detector for what he said, I found his style to be annoying. I like individuality. I like people who are different. However, there is a difference between trying to be yourself and giving people room and comfort to be their selves, and thrusting your quirks and insecurities all over them such that every time you post, things revolve around you. What irritated me to no end was that he never, ever, EVER showed anyone any respect in their threads by responding to what they had to say in normal prose. And if they did answer one of his endless inane questions or play statements, he wouldn't respond to what they said with his own thoughts, he would just respond with more of his foolishness, showing that he wasn't really paying attention to what they said in the first place, ie he didn't give a damn about what they had to say, he just wanted to insert his stupid ass writing style in the thread so he could be noticed.
If it's a choice between gaining Icarus and losing fallow, it's not even a choice. I'll take Icarus any day of the week and twice on Sundays.
Ideally, we could have both Icarus and fallow, and the real person behind fallow. If fallow would restrict his crap to fluff threads, I wouldn't care how he wrote. Just use another persona in the other threads so that you can treat people with respect.
Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
Tom, I don't want to deny anyone else's right to feel insulted by Fallow, since it appears my experience with him is not typical of what others have experienced.
For me, Fallow's comments are equivalent of a homeless person coming up to me in the middle of the street and telling me that I should stop eating hamsters because God will strike me down (true story). Since this comment is so completely ridiculous, I find it funny rather than insulting.
quote: anyone that is defending him as harmless could not have seen his behaviour in the thread about that poor girl who was sexually assaulted.
Guilty as charged. I've never read that thread. Thanks for bringing that to my attention.
edited to add: "true story" refers to meeting the homeless person, and not to "eating hamsters."
[ August 23, 2004, 09:16 PM: Message edited by: Beren One Hand ]
Posts: 4116 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
Icarus, the feeling is mutual. (((Icarus))) And I did ask for input. I was not prepared for, shall we say, the emotionally laden responses. I had no idea - and frankly, no experience - with what some of you had experienced. So, from my frame of reference, a simple question turned into a hate-fest - which frankly, I hate. And beyond the sometimes puzzling non sequiters and odd twists to Wenches Tavern, I had no problems with Mike. I am truly sorry, as I said, that people did have problems and that he was so out of line.
I am going to request our beloved Janitor to lock this thread, though, because I do NOT want to see it turn into an "oldbie" versus "newbie" thread. That is pointless and counterproductive, too.
Again, thank you to everyone for sharing their experiences.
Let's go ahead and close this book now.
Posts: 5609 | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
For what it's worth, Icarus IS a venerated icon of Hatrack. He's worth far more than fallow ever was during his career here, but that doesn't do the man justice -- Icarus is worth more than most of us, myself included. Suggesting his departure is like suggesting losing Toni again (sans the amazing rack) or Tom (sans the amazing love talent, or so Cor tells me); comparing him to fallow is an insult, in my eyes.
Gah. I'll just second what Trevor said about fallow and have done. He's not worth further waste of time and breath.
Topic Closed
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he just has a style that's a little more . . . interesting? Provocative?![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Beren.![[Dont Know]](graemlins/dontknow.gif)
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