posted
Blac - religion is one of those insanely sensitive issues.
If someone honestly believes a friend is risking eternal damnation, what steps wouldn't you take to save them? "For your own good" clause applies here, which makes it far more difficult than a bad relationship, struggling finances or whathaveyou.
For a lot of people, it tends to be a "hypothetical exercise" - either you believe or you don't. I'm not going to force you because I'm not entirely sure myself or we're not interested in converting forcibly, etc.
I understand the frustration you feel because I'm more negatively inclined towards organized religion and it cost me someone I thought was a good friend, but at the same time I dislike lying in general and misrepresenting myself, so it was a juggling act. And, in retrospect, I could have done a better job of handling the religious discrepancies, but oh well.
posted
I understand how they feel perfectly, and while I was still religious I used that argument a lot. I still use it now, defending conservative Christians from my liberal friends. I'm not really angry, just sad it can't be any other way.
Posts: 4655 | Registered: Jan 2002
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I'm confused. I've never heard of a church that would excommunicate someone for eloping or for doubting their faith.
I mean, what does that say about THEIR faith? If they aren't strong enough in faith to weather a bit of uncertainty in their midst, exactly what does that say?
I'm very very saddened by the situation you describe.
And excommunication is a very serious step. It says the person is dead to them, neh? Like there is no chance for redemption. At least that's the way I always viewed excommunication.
And that's a seriously askew judgement to make of someone who fell in love and eloped, or who is questioning their faith.
It says that there is no chance of forgiveness. A strange statement for any Christian to make.
posted
From what I understand and apparently I "don't understnd the situation fully" she's being excommuncated because she eloped and cut off her family, and now won't apologize to them and sy she was wrong. From my point of view it seems like she's being excommunicated because she refuses to repudiate her husband. Apparently the Elder's discussed this a lot, etc. etc. and there's more going on than they are telling us. But, excommunication is a pretty public punishment, you know? I think they owe it to the church to give us all the information. If you're wondering, this, along with a few other things, such as the constant jokes about Mormons, are what started me questioning in the first place. I talked to some of my friends then, and they told me that there was more to the situation than I knew.
Later, after I had stopped questioning and made my decision regarding religion, they urged me to talk to one of the Elders regarding the recent excommunication. However, by that time I was avoiding the Elders like the plague, and wasn't about to be the one to make them start thinking about excommunication in any kind of connection with me.
I know I'm not handling this properly or heathily at all, but I don't know how to do better. Short of being completely honest and seeing what the consequences are, which really doesn't appeal to me all that much.
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quote:Later, after I had stopped questioning and made my decision regarding religion, they urged me to talk to one of the Elders regarding the recent excommunication.
This strikes me as really weird. But I guess they wouldn't necessarily have to talk about that situation so much as your feelings about it.
On excommunication generally, in the LDS church excommunication has gone up and down in it's severity over the years and depending on the situation. But it isn't being declare incorrigible, it's just the church saying "you need to repent if you want to be with us". In our Gospel Doctrine class we've talked about how many times it is possible to be excommunicated and still come back. I think the most anyone had heard of in real life was 3. But I'm pretty sure that if one were sincere, the Lord would stand by the 70 times 7.
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posted
dkw has cleared up a misunderstanding for me. Apparently excommunication is serious, but not permanent in the Catholic faith (which is what I was basing my supposition on). The hope is that the person will be "shocked into" repentance.
quote: If you're wondering, this, along with a few other things, such as the constant jokes about Mormons, are what started me questioning in the first place.
I understand. But don't let someone's screwball actions affect YOU.
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posted
Wait, I was under the impression that this wasn't a Catholic church we were talking about. Is it?
If so, there's something mighty strange going on, because excommunication doesn't happen at the parish level. It requires a Bishop, and is a VERY big deal (although not permanant).
posted
Sorry for the confusion. I was just going off of what I'd grown up with -- Catholicism. I really don't know the rules/consequences of excommunication in other denominations.
Apparently, I didn't know them for Catholicism either.
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posted
What if what they are doing is really, really, really stupid?
I have friend who right now is choosing to file bankruptsy when she has a job that pays her $25 an hour and has less than seven thousand dollars of debt, and is currently sleeping with a man who is cheating on the girlfriend he lives with with her. And he's HIV POSITIVE.
I know there's really nothing I can do, but jeez - she's going to get herself killed. I can't help but wonder if that's partly the point.
Do you think exommunication would matter to her? Or were you asking more what you should say to someone like that?
My answer is that something that involves probable death and possible fraud cannot be supported in good conscience. Does that mean you should take it upon yourself to try to wake this person up to the horrid path she is on? I don't know. Maybe try once.
But probably the only course of action that makes sense is to wait and be there for her when the inevitable does happen.
And the only reason I would possibly try once now is that she might pull back from the brink without too much damage if she hurries. Otherwise, there really is very little you can do but hope to help her once she figures it out and needs a friend.
posted
How good a friend is she? If she is a very good friend then it matters enough to risk it, maybe. She will probably get defensive, and that is ok.
Keep in mind that this might be a matter of life and death, and that you are only trying to let her see her mistakes. She has to be the one to decide what to do about it, so be very careful on how you phrase it to her.
That is what I would try to do, probably. Also, I would start with the "boyfriend" part of it first; it is the more important thing, and you don't want to hit her with all of this at once, at least not right away.
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