posted
What was the name of the priest of the Drowned God? The one who died and was spit back out by the Drowned God, and rededicated his life to the old ways? Theon's uncle.
Was that the one you were talking about? Because he might fit the bill.
Euron is someone else, who is revealed in Arms of the Kracken. He has blue lips and a horn which is said to control dragons. He's on his way to Dany at the end of it.
I don't WANT Euron to be one of Dany's brides. I don't like that guy, and I love Dany.
posted
Would Sansa rule the North since she's the eldest? Or would it be the next oldest boy (Bran)? (Or maybe it'd just depend on who was considered to actually be alive... can't remember, is Sansa also considered to be dead?)
Posts: 2911 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
Sansa's not considered dead, but she's in hiding -- a fugitive. Arya, Bran, and Rickon are all missing and presumed dead. Littlefinger may be able to -- and probably will -- work out a deal where he insists Sansa had no part in the assassination, marries her, and becomes the lord of Harrenhall, the Eyrie, and Winterfell.
And Javie's an idiot. I love the dude, but sigh, what an idiot.
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quote:So here's my guess. Dany sails east, around the world, and allies herself with Euron Greyjoy to attack Westeros's western shore. Perhaps Euron's extensive travels have taught him a route that he could help her take. Euron is her second husband, but then something horrible happens (as you can always expect from these books), and he either dies or betrays her. He being a Greyjoy, I'd guess the latter.
Heh, I was just rereading the Arm of the Krakken thread yesterday, and someone came up with this exact theory. I wouldn't be surprised if it happens. Do you think the various "three" prophecies are tied to each other, so that the "mount to dread" is also the "treason for gold"? It's possible, but I don't really feel like Euron's out for gold, unless you consider Westeros==Gold.
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posted
Actually, I had thought the route is well known to get from Westeros to the Free Cities to wherever it was that Danys sailed from to begin with. In fact, didn't the last book conclude with her on her way to the Free Cities, or am I misremembering?
Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
Great, I go offline for a week, and all the good speculation's taken.
Hmmm...lemme think of something.
The third head of the dragon will be Aemon Targaryen, and Bran will pilot the dragon from the ground.
And as the prophesy says nothing of marriage, if I remember correctly (my books are currently on loan, aka gone forever), I don't find it odd for Dany to ally with Euron. Never marry, but maybe love for the furtherment of her cause.
But in my mind, I always picture her starting from the North, not the West. Maybe it's hope that she and Jon conquer together, but I also see the dragons as being a boon to the fight against the Others. And that's what the whole series is about, really. I mean, the final book is going to be called The Winds of Winter. I'm not sure if she's going to conquer the kingdom, then fight the Others, or if she'll defeat the Others and win the love of the people, who'll then agree to make her Queen of the Seven Kingdoms.
So many different possibilities...the only thing I'm sure of is that Jon's is the song of ice and fire. Geoff's excerpt above is actually what sealed it for me. Lyanna has always been represented by the blue rose.
I'm interested to see what goes down in Braavos, too. Arya's on her way, so's Tyrion, and so's Dany. Maybe we'll find the "treason for gold"? Lannister=Gold, so far, and I wouldn't put it past GRRM to play a bit on words.
One thing's for sure, though: I can't wait to meet Howland Reed.
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posted
I'm still wondering where the whole Tyrion/Richard III connection will gel. Martin's said a few times that he was doing a fantasy version of the War of the Roses, and I'm curious as to which infants Tyrion will have to kill to maintain his hold on the throne.
My guess is that they'll be Littlefinger's and Sansa's, but that's at least a book away.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
Well, that brings up another point. I wonder if at some point the book will skip ahead some years? Personally, I would like to see a grown-up Arya going all Jet Li on people. Not to mention, it would be kind of cool to see the adult dragons in action. Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
My experience with this series has been kind of strange. Since I started it, I've been trying to figure out who the "main" or "central" character is, or would turn out to be. Now it looks like there may not be one, but I haven't conceded that point yet.
First, I assumed it was Jon Snow. That is still a good possibility. However, enough weird, unexplained stuff has happened with Bran that there is a distinct possibility it could be him. And, since Daenerys hasn't turned out to be a "bad guy," and yet her plotline is building up so much, and so independently, there is also a possibility that she will end up as the "main" character. And, in a weird way, even Tyrion has some arguments to be made in his favor.
I guess I'll just have to wait and see who "wins."
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posted
As I understand it, according to Martin, Dany and Jon are the "heroes" and Tyrion is the main villain. But it may be more appropriate to simply observe that most of the characters are protagonists to themselves. Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
I've always been mystified as to how Martin could conceive of Tyrion as a villain. It...just doesn't add up to me, somehow.
As for a time gap, Storm, Martin's original plan was to have five years pass between books III and IV, but he found that he was spending too much time in flashbacks and the like, and so had to scrap most of what he'd written and start over, with book IV picking up pretty much where III left off.
You know, I'm curious--above, Lalo said that he considered A Song of Ice and Fire to be the best "non-literature" book ever written. How do you define "literature" Eddie?
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posted
No, Tyrion's not a villain. At least, not by any definition that makes sense to me. His father, Tywin, was definitely a villain.
Posts: 1652 | Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
I am not sure where you are getting this info Tom.
According to Martin, the War of the Roses was one of several things he loosely used as inspiration to the series.
He never said there was a 1-1 correspondence.
In fact in a "So spake Martin" he tells a reader not to take any historical parallels too seriously. That the books were certainly inspired by history, but that they aren't a portrayal of history itself.
quote:You know, I'm curious--above, Lalo said that he considered A Song of Ice and Fire to be the best "non-literature" book ever written. How do you define "literature" Eddie?
Me and Eddie had a long debate about this last night.
He ended up saying that if A Song of Ice and Fire was literature, so was a penthouse letter.
posted
I got the "Tyrion as villain" information from no fewer than three interviews he's given, all of which are linked to on his site. I don't have time to find the specific references right now, but he's quite explicit. In a little bit, if someone hasn't beaten me to it, I'll go looking for them.
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
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quote: Martin: There's a number of things. I think his wit is appealing. He gets off a lot of good iconoclastic, cynical one-liners, and those are fun to write. He's also a very gray character. All my characters are gray to a greater or lesser extent, but Tyrion is perhaps the deepest shade of gray, with the black and white in him most thoroughly mixed, and I find that very appealing. I've always liked gray characters more than black-and-white characters.
Thats all I found so far. It certainly doesn't reflect what you guys are saying.
posted
Being "The Villain" in this series doesn't mean you're entirely evil, or even mostly evil. Nobody in the series has that trait, and even many people on the "good" side are pretty nasty.
I suspect that if Tyrion is "The Villain", that means he's the man who must be defeated before the final chapter of the story can be resolved. Neither Jon nor Dany is yet in a position to be the dominant heroes, either, but by the end, it is their victories that will define the outcome of the book, so they are the heroes. Tyrion started out reasonably good, if unscrupulous when threatened, but as his life has gotten worse, so has he, to the point of becoming a cold-blooded murderer.
Similarly, Jaime started out horrendous, until we discovered that his Kingslaying was actually for the better good, and his horrific behavior is largely due to his sister's influence. He's still done some awful stuff, but I think he's likely to atone for it by the end.
The fact that we like Tyrion now doesn't mean he's not on the path to villainy.
[ April 19, 2004, 02:58 PM: Message edited by: A Rat Named Dog ]
Posts: 1907 | Registered: Feb 2000
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posted
"I think it's pretty clear that the only reason Tyrion murdered his father was because of extreme duress."
Which is, of course, one of the great things about Martin; we've got plenty of people making excuses for murder, simply because we understand why the character felt driven to it. Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
Sure. Absolutely. But I think motivation and outcome speaks to whether or not we should judge someone as a villain. I think killing someone because they forced your wife to be gang rape is, oh, an understandable motivation for killing the person who caused this injustice?
Compare this to my choice for villain, Sansa. Her motivations are weak and the outcomes are bad for everyone because she goes along with the bad people and is their pawn. This goes back to the central theme of the book, which is that the only sin is to not struggle. Many people have died because of her. Contrast this with Tyrion who, it's pretty clear in the book, tries to do what would usually be considered 'right', but isn't any man's fool. He extends mercy when possible and punishes those who would usually be considered as 'bad' people in the book. In many ways, in fact, Tyrion is the MOST good person in the book. I don't understand how he can be considered a villain at all.
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posted
I don't either Storm...it just doesn't make any sense to me. In fact, I'd assume that I had misread, but a few months ago I had this discussion with my parents, and went and found the relevant quotes. Unless I'm misremembering completely, he does make this claim, and make it repeatedly. Have you found it yet Xavier? I'm having a bit of a busy day at work, so I haven't had time to look.
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posted
I was filing Tywin's death as a good deed. Now telling Jamie he killed Joff... *that* was cold, and might mark the beginning of a shift to villain from almost-hero, at least on my personal scorecard. This might become clearer in the next book.
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posted
I don't know if you two have noticed this about the series yet, but one of the major themes seems to be that a great deal of evil can be done even if one has the best of intentions. In other words, it's the means and not the ends that define the man.
As to villany: I think you actually need a fair bit of deliberation to be a villain. Sansa doesn't qualify, because she lacks any introspection. She's done harm, but isn't a classic villain in the sense of the word.
There ARE classic villains in the books, although most of them have been killed off by this point. But part of the great thing about the novels is that it's hard to still think of someone as a villain once they get a single viewpoint chapter.
Martin's operating philosophy seems to be that all men want to think of themselves as heroes, regardless of facts. Consider the evidence that Robert, for example, was almost certainly a villain. And yet Ned was one of his fastest friends, right? Would Ned, whom we regard as a straightforward hero, have supported Robert in his treason and his massacre of the royal family if he'd had reason to believe that the king was not in fact mad?
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
Oh, I'm not arguing that I think there is a villain in the book. I'm just going along with the conceit that if have to pick one, then I think Sansa might be a good place to start. Though, I agree with you that Robert is a good choice, too.
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Thanks. How does it go beyond fantasy? It kinda looks like everything else. I read the Thomas whatsisname stuff at one point, being told it was something beyond Tolkein, but it didn't really turn out that way... other than being angsty at length.
posted
One big difference I've found with this series as opposed tp most fantasy is that the fantasy elements are not very conspicuous. Magic is not used very often (if at all, depending on your interpretation of the events) and the emphasis is definitely on what the people do - the regular old people that don't have any special abilities outside their brains and brawn. As the series goes on the fantasy elements are developed more fully, but the plot is still driven by very human actions.
It's been called historical fiction because for the most part, it's just peopledoing what they do, just in a medieval setting.
Also, the way it's written is definitely different from any other books I've read. The author moves the story along by sequentially putting you inside the head of key characters - but there are a lot of them. It took me a while reading the first book to get used to all the jumping around, but when you do, it really draws you in.
Posts: 134 | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
Fallow: I enjoyed the Covenant series, but not the way I enjoy most fantasy. Those books were filled with very, very cool concepts, but I found the writing style to be very boreing. to the point that I had trouble finishing them. I actually enjoyed the second series better than the first. I loved the Land, but I could care less about Covenant himself.
I think what the author (Donaldsondid best was use a non-heroic viewpoint fairly sucessfully, for maybe the first time, and that was a novel approch at the time.
GRRM is a FAR better writer than Donaldson, IMO. He writes in an engaging style, and he upsets the normal fantasy conventions that are almost clishes (sp?), in that there are many viewpoints, and many people are portraied as human. There are heros' that fall from grace, villans that become heroic, and the most honest man in the Kingdoms is also not popular, either in the storyline or with fans of the series.
I think it is some of the best writing I have ever read. And I read a LOT of books.
posted
Kwea, who's this "most honest man" you're thinking of? The only characters I can think that would fit that description seem to be fairly popular. Just curious.
Posts: 134 | Registered: Mar 2004
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I meant to buy it last weekend. I definitely will this coming weekend.
There was a thread around here about reading lists and whatnot. I got the impression from that thread that folks mostly read into the SF/fantasy genre (not surprising, sure). But, (maybe I missed them) I didn't see too many refs to other types of fiction. I was raised on the SF/fantasy stuff, but I've also found an enormous amount of reading pleasure in traditional authors of academic-repute, and then some of the NY Times bestseller variety.
posted
Not to hijack the thread or anything, but I'm about to finish the 2nd Chronicles of Covenant, and I really don't see how you could say it doesn't have any deeper meaning. The whole point of the books is about deeper meaning. ::shrug:: It seems to me that if you read it simply as a fantasy action story, you would definately get bored with it, because you aren't focusing on the point. But whatever.
posted
Oh, ignore fallow; he's just being a snob. C'mon, think about what he's saying: that a book with the standard fantasy trappings CANNOT be literature, because it's held captive by its own genre.
This is a standard claim of elitists, but it's proven wrong pretty easily if you look at what we DO consider literature nowadays, most of which was the genre fiction of its age.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
I realize that Tom, but I just have a hard time believe someone could not recognize the greater depths of Covenant. You'd have to be trying to miss it. It's like reading Card's Homecoming series and saying you didn't see any spiritual concepts (which I have a friend who swears there's nothing spiritual in that book).
--ApostleRadio
EDIT: I'd like to see a fight between book snobs and music snobs. In this corner, those who only think "real literature" has merit, and in that corner, those who think that the only music worth listening to is by people you have never heard of.
posted
I just have to bump this thread. I am re-reading the series for only the first time and have picked up SOO much more than I did the first time through. Then I saw that poor reader getting her heart broken about Ned's death (that was SO two books ago)...just had to get some discussion going.
I just read two sections that very much support some of the discussion on here. One is the R+L=J formula. Jojen harps to Bran "Are you sure your father never told you this story?" as Meera tells Bran of the little Craggonman. This pegs it for me, I think.
The second piece supports the "Jaqen killed Balon" bit. When the Lem, Tom and that crew are searching for the Lightning Lord, they ask the old woman, that seer. She says to them:
"I dreamt I saw a Shadow with a burning heart butchering a golden stag, aye. I dreamt of a man without a face, waiting on a bridge that swayed and swung. On his shoulder perched a drowned crow with seaweed hanging from its wings. I dreamt of a roaring river and woman that was a fish. Dead she drifted, with red tears on her cheeks but when her eyes did open, oh, I woke from terror."
The first is clearing Stannis killing Renly. The second really sounds like the faceless man killing Balon. The next bit is confusing. Ideas? The last I assume is Catelyn and her amazing final bit in the book.
What are Catelyn and the Lightning Lord, at this point? I am curious what others think.
Speaking of the Others, what are they? A friend suspects they are "elves" in traditional Tolkein-esque terms. Or maybe the Children, all grown up and angry.
I have half a book to go before being finished with Storm of Swords and maybe more will come back to me.
Can't WAIT for Feast to come out. I spoke with a developer for a MUSH based on the books and they have had contact with Martin recently. They really think he is going to finish up in the Summer and have it ready to read about 3 months after that (5 over in the US). I hope so.
posted
I haven't had time to read all this so may be repeating - I've got to go to bed as I've work in the morning. But just have to say:
I love these books and definitely need to reread as I really struggled to place a few of the characters when I read the first post.
My theory from reading the books is that Rhaegar desired rather than loved Lyanna and abducted her - then either married her by force or just went ahead and raped her - thus she became pregnant with Jon. I think she'd died following childbirth and knew that Jon would be killed if anyone found out he was Rhaegars and so made Ned promise never to tell anyone. Ned being loyal stuck by his promise by claiming Jon was his.
Posts: 394 | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
Yeah, I reread the series a few weeks back, and meant to post on this thread with all sorts of supporting evidence. (The first time I had only the vaguest idea of what was going on, as I was reading it in snatches during a week in which I was supposed to be building a kitchen.)
I agree with Fil on most everything, though I'm still unsure who the "[on Jacquen's shoulder] shoulder perched a drowned crow with seaweed hanging from its wings." Neither Jacquen nor Balon have any connection with the Night's Watch, do they?
Posts: 3293 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
Maybe we have had Jaqen with us from the very beginning? Maybe he returned with Tyrion from the first visit to the wall and has been one of the background characters before we met him as Jaqen? I remember wondering if he was the Braavosi swordsman Syrio, but that felt a bit off.
I do like that Arya is already becoming a "faceless" person, to an extent. She changes her name as the situation demands, being Arry or Weasel or Nan. Very hip.
Did anyone read "The Hedge Knight" or the other short story? I didn't read the book but did get the comic version of it. Very cool stuff, too. It is referenced in a one page story that Jon hears while on the Wall. Castle Black's Maester Aemon was born around that incident from the Hedge Knight. They talk about the tourney that happens and the repercussions from it. I like that it was the original splitting of the Fossoways (Green and Red Apple). First time through the books I never caught that but second time through, it was cool to read about both version of Fossoway!
I hope he does more stories set in other points of the world's history.
posted
So will Jon of the Ice and Dany of the Fire get it on in the last book? If the theories of their parentage stand, it would be no big thang if this couple got together.
Did Thoros have his cleric-like abilities prior to his run with the Lightening Lord? I got from the earlier depictions he was mostly fronting the priest part. He seemed more into bashing heads with his fake flaming sword and drinking with Robert. Did the rebirth of "magic" coincide with him, too?
Another discussion I have had with a bud is when did magic come back? Was it when Dany lost her baby to that evil maegi or when the Dragons were reborn? Or, like the Tick, was the magic in us all the time?
posted
I didn't click to the joining of the ice and fire aspect before - thought it was just a comparison - doh!
But have felt for a long time - not sure which book I was reading at the time - that Jon (Ice) and Dany (fire) would end up together - incestuous marriages not being a problem for their family - reintroducing the line of Targaryen back to the throne. Despite his vows I think Jon will be thrust into leadership. Jon should have the hereditary powers to control a dragon if Rhaegar is his father.
I think that Bran will become the first prophet/ disciple of the Lord of Light which will become the main religion. I also feel he'll get to fly a dragon - thus fulfilling his flying dreams.
I love Arya - she's such a tough little cookie - I hope she does get reunited with her wolf but I'm not sure if that will happen - I do think she'll become an assassin behind the guise of a Lady - she has to become beautiful as she gets older - too many hints about her being ugly and plain.
Not sure about Sansa - she's getting wiser - it took long enough though and I think she'll end up killing off Peter - it'd serve him right as he's used her so much and thinks she's pliable.
fil - Thoros I think was a lapsed cleric who found true religion during his campaign with Dondarrion he saw the light - literally
Do we know how many books the series is going to be - GRRM isn't going to do a Robert Jordan and go on forever is he?
Posts: 394 | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
Villains, to me, are those that enjoy doing what they know to be wrong. Poor Tyrian did the world a favor by killing off his dad, but patricide has to be as tough on the classic, literary soul as incest.
I was in Borders today and they said that Feast for Crows is on their list books to be released 8/3/04.
Posts: 19 | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
I can almost guarantee that Baelish won't be dying anytime soon (the "almost" put in because with Martin, who knows?). He's the only major behind-the-scenes power player -- arguably, he's the power player. He had Lysa kill Arryn, he arranged the fall of the Starks, he seized both the East and Harrenhal in a single swoop, he's the only character Varys can't predict or control...
Varys is also, I'm reasonably sure, secretly allied with the fat merchant who housed the exiled Targaryens for a time. What was his name... He sent Barristan and Strong Belwas to protect Dany, whatever his name was. As I recall, he met with Varys in the catacombs under the palace, in the room with the dragon heads, overheard by Arya.
But no, Baelish is freaking brilliant. He won't be killed, not anytime soon -- though I can easily see Sansa betraying him and taking over his operations once she's trained in the game of thrones.
Posts: 3293 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
Also, I can't really see Bran becoming a disciple of the Lord of Light. Rather, I'd see him chasing after the Children, possibly rowing his crippled ass out to God's Eye to find them after this deal he has going with Coldhands (Benjen Stark, possibly?).
Posts: 3293 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
I don't think that Balish will die soon, but I do think that Sansa willl best him, probably by outmanuvering him. The pupil surpassing the teacher so to speak.
I think (the post was written a long time ago) that I was speaking about Ned Stark, and also Janie Lannister, when I was talking about the honest man.
Ned is popular with readers, but not with the characters in the book...they are all hiding too much to be friendly.
Jamie starts off horribly, but as you find out his motivations he gains sympathy. He has been used by everone...Cersei,Trywin, Ageon; everyone see something in him to their ouw benifit. The one selfless thing he does, killing the mad king before he burns the whole city down, earns him the disrespect of all the other principals and the epitath Kingslayer.
He wasn't honest about Cersei (and Bran), but he is painfully honest by the end of the last book.
quote:I was in Borders today and they said that Feast for Crows is on their list books to be released 8/3/04.
I wouldn't save up for that date, though. They have had a solid date since it was meant to be released last July, I think. They just keep shifting it. Go to www.georgerrmartin.com and look under "Feast For Crows" section. If there is still the letter dated January 2004, then it ain't done. We are 3-5 months away from it being published here from the date he puts up the "it is finished" letter and we aren't there yet.
As for numbers of books, I have originally heard 5 books but I think he may have raised that to 6. He keeps finding new avenues to take in the story and it keeps building. I still kind of wish he ends it with five, though. I hate to say it, but he ain't getting any younger I don't want to have to wonder what was on his mind for the finale.
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