posted
I think it's important to differentiate between a porn addict and one who uses porn, with regard to that statement.
Posts: 1112 | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
A lot of people here have commented that the pressure to look good comes from other women. I would like to propose that I am mostly immune to those sorts of signals. I have never been "into" fashion, clothes, etc.
All my life, when I chose my clothing, it was with the intention of looking good to guys. I couldn't care a flip what other girls think. The outfits that girls pronounced were "sooooo cute"! I had no interest in. Like "jumpers". I thought, jumpers are not flattering to my figure. I don't care what girls think, I care what guys think. And I dressed with that in mind.
When girls (or guys) get together and start talking about clothes, how much fat is on their bodies, their complexion, hair, my brain just turns off. I usually leave the conversation, because it has totally lost my interest.
That is just to give you some insight into what I am talking about here. It is NOT about glamor, it is about what men find sexy.
I pretty much agree with what my husband said. Well put, Porter.
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
Of course, it's no big surprise that your beliefs about how males react to porn/soft porn match my beliefs. There are a lot of people here that disagree. If they are not deluding themselves, then I am wrong, at least generally.
But then, it's obvious that I don't think I'm wrong.
posted
I think I could force myself to be attracted to a woman if I had to. Of course, it's easier from the female point of view. Women are just more beautiful.
posted
I'm glad you took it as intended. Looking at it, I thought it just wasn't funny enough to risk the possible offence.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
Oddly enough, if I've already decided that I like someone, they almost CAN'T offend me. But if I've decided I DON'T like someone, then they can't avoid it.
Posts: 6367 | Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
See, that's interesting, because I really don't think I could possibly feel physical attraction for a guy. I have friends whom I love "like brothers," but that's it. Our attitudes on this question probably colors our belief on the choice issue. *shrug*
quote: I am *not* saying that they are lying, but deep down, I cannot bring myself to believe that.
Well, my gut reaction to that was to be insulted by your presumption, but I suppose I can understand your lack of empathy. And maybe given the right circumstances I could bring myself to become sufficiently excited with a woman to have sex, but: 1. It wouldn't be very satisfying to either of us, I'm sure. 2. What woman wants a man who has to psych himself up or play mental bait-and-switch games just to pretent she's his real object of desire? 3. No woman I've met can give me what I find desirable in men.
Even though I can understand it, your statement still bothers me. I feel a similar way about people who claim to have "felt the Spirit" or gotten a "Witness from God". I don't think they are lying, but I think that on some level they are deluding themselves. I think while the feelings might be real, they are generated from within and have nothing to do with an outside force. But I would feel really rude pressing the issue with someone. And even if I could get them to admit that there is the tiniest possibility I'm right, what have I gained, really?
Likewise, what is gained by getting a homosexual to admit that, yes, on some level deep deep down there is the remote possibility that he could find himself aroused by a woman?
Posts: 6394 | Registered: Dec 1999
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posted
mph, I am discounting nothing. Just seeing if it's worth continuing to argue the point.
But yeah, I'm just another liberal whacko, secretly brooding on my plans for World Communism, trying to marginalize good Christians (persecuted as they are from every side). Sheesh. ---
pooka, what I am saying is that if there are these other, more mainstream, but analogous, careers for women, say, that while you find are dysfunctional, you feel no need to create some public policy to fix/combat, then your objection comes from the fact that porn is about sex in particular. You imply that you want some curbing of it, either by more societal pressure, or by governmental intervention (which doesn't mean abolishment). From where does this particular sentiment arise? In your case, I'd guess religion. This doesn't mean you are wrong, but by identifying it as such, if you choose to do so, means that _I_ can't argue it with you, because the assumptions of each of us are too different, and too fundamental, to bridge. Lord knows I would never want to attack your religious beliefs. You may very well be correct. I won't try to dissuade you otherwise, but neither will I try to argue from a more secular POV, since your religion's doctrines and the inward judgment of the influence of the holy spirit (not necessarily in this order) will always trump secular concerns. I will let you act/believe as you feel you must, and I will act in the way of my choosing.
If we're going to argue from a societal standpoint, where the harms must be physical/psychological (as opposed to spritual), then the fact that porn is about sex cannot be a priori considered harmful. It requires data, not just to show a correlation, but to show a likely causation. I'm sensing from your arguments that you feel a more fundamental concern. I may be wrong. ---
mph, I am in the same boat as you are as far as sexual preference it seems (I am not actively attracted to men like I am to women, but I have had many male fantasies, and am not icked out by the male form), but why do you feel compelled to assume that sexuality is just one way? Why isn't a sort of flux, a range along which we all have varying proclivities. I know many people who just can't see men in a sexually attractive way. In fact there was a 10+ page thread on an online video game board recently asking why guys play female characters... The #1 response? They'd rather look at a female butt for hours on end than a male butt. They are fundamentally disgusted at the male form (even just the butt). Maybe some are compensating for something, but EVERY one of them? Consider me skeptical.
Changing gears, it's sort of ironic to say that you feel people can change something as fundamental as their sexual preference, but then despair at (and assume universally, it appears) the fact that you can only see things from your point of view. I'll agree that you can never separate yourself completely from yourself, but (at least for me, and I won't fall into the trap that it is even possible for you, because it may not be possible for you), I am quite capable of viewing something from another person's POV, and understand it as far as it goes, and see why someone acted in a way completely different from the way I expected.
However, for me to use my fairly successful experiences with empathy to presume ANYONE can do it, even only to the extent I can, is foolish, I think. To say that "Gee, mph, I can do it, and have been doing it since I was a kid, so can you if you try hard enough" is insulting to you, and ignores the fact that it may never be true. I'll never throw a 90MPH fastball, nor will I ever have that innate charisma some people have.
posted
Most of what I would have said has already been said. I'll just toss in the fact that I always hear women/girls say stuff like "OMG she has the same shirt as me. I am so embarassed." If guys(including myself) actually even notice another guy wearing the same shirt we don't care what-so-ever. To me that gives the impression that it is women who push other women to spend so much on clothes, surgery, etc.
Posts: 21 | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
Bokonon -- one of my greatest weaknesses as a human being is my inability to empathize. I have to consciously give people the benefit of the doubt. It doesn't happen on its own. It has always been a barrier between myself and others.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
I just sorta... want to comment on this statement
"Actresses, Models, and ballet dancers are not my idea of robust personalities, but... okay."
The strongest, most powerful female personality of the women my brother and I have dated, was definetely the ballet dancer in the group.
Posts: 4112 | Registered: May 2001
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Even the Great Empath known as Bokonon has had to conciously make an effort to give certain people the benefit of the doubt (in fact this tends to be more of a problem with me the closer I am to someone!!). People have varying abilities. We aren't all self-sufficent (no matter what my libertarian friend in DC says...). Of course, if they are, they probably don't need to befriend me, so I'd never know, what with that self-sufficiency personality trait and all.
posted
KarlEd -- I have started several posts in response to yours, and posted none of them. Let me just say that I have gained a respect for you from your posts. I knew that my feelings/thoughts might probably offend you, and that gave me sorrow, but I hoped that I could share without offending too bad.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
It seems most people disagree that the ubiquitous images of "perfect women" have not raised men's expectations or changed what is required to excite them. I would like to believe that, but it sounds like more like a nice, comforting fairytale.
First of all, how can I know that my "average" and your "average" are the same? Has the standard for "average" raised because of rising male expectation and the number of women trying to meet them?
Now the following sentiments are hypothetical because I am happily married and only one man's opinion matters to me, and things are fine between us. Also, keep in mind, this isn't *really* about porn, but anything that promotes sexually alluring images of women. James Bond movies fit into this category just fine, and I don't consider those pornographic.
I am not denying that there is increasing pressure for guys to look good, but I think the women simply don't need men to look as good as men need women to look. I think the rising trend of guys needing to look good is a relatively new thing. And, IMO, it at least in part, stems from the efforts of society to make both sexes the same.
It used to be that it was expected for men to be permiscuous and put high emphasis on women's looks. Today's society seems to encourage women to be just as permiscuous and shallow even if it is not biologically in their nature to be so. I guess I hold to the old school idea that men and women are essentially different and their sex drives work differently. I just don't think that women by nature have that same desire to "mate with anything on two legs" that men seem to lean towards. (Sorry, gross exaggeration.)
I feel like the image being promoted today is that women should want to sleep around and focus on the physical appearance of guys. It's poetic justice, right? That's what we women have been dealt from men since the beginning, right? It's only fair to turn it back around the other way. I believe the pressure on guys to be "hot" is a side-effect of that.
Ok, Kasie:
quote: If you go to a party someplace (bar, cocktail party, whatever) looking to meet someone, the guy will walk into the room and immediately scope out all the cute girls. Girls will do exactly the same thing. Because for the girl, she perceives her possibilities as being limited not by the attractiveness of the available men, but by the attractiveness of the other women in the room. If you perceive yourself to be the cutest one in the room, you can go after any of the guys. If you're not, you have to limit your options accordingly.
Well, here's how I look at it. Any of you watched the movie "A Beautiful Mind"? Lets say I walk into a bar and there is one really hot chick there. All the guys want to go home with her that night, if it were at all possible. They would rather go home with her than any other women in the place. But hey, they'd rather go home with some promise of sex than no promise of sex. How does this effect me? It effects me in that I don't like being second choice.
How does this relate to the images of "perfect women"? I don't like the feeling that I am a disappointment because men are so accustomed to viewing perfection.
PSI:
quote: How many of you women think that this has made you less accepting of your husbands, to the point where you find them less attractive and can't be stimulated by them?
This doesn't effect me because I believe very strongly that looks are are not nearly so much a part of women being attracted to men as it is for men being attracted to women. At least in my case, I am capable of being attracted to a fairly "unattractive" man if the right other ingredients are there. I can say this with all confidence because it has happened, more than once. (No, I am NOT talking about Porter Porter is HOT.)
For men, attractiveness certainly isn't the only important thing or even the most important thing, but the majority feel it must be there. Fortunately, not ALL men feel this way. I'm sure some of you fine men here at Hatrack are among them.
Blah, sorry if some of my comments come across bitterly, this is a fairly emotional and personal issue for me. Again, I do appreciate your comments and differing perspectives.
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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Bev: I agree that looks are more important to a man...but to a point. I think men can be attracted to other aspects of a woman, besides her looks. Aren't there still some men left out there that are attracted to their wives even after they've gained thirty pounds, have stretch marks from breasts to butt, and have gray hair? I hope so, or marriage seems kinda pointless.
It seems kind of wrong to say that a man will have sex with anything that moves, but to then say that a man won't be attracted to a woman who isn't perfect. Those two stereotypes cancel each other out. Not that you're saying this, Bev, but it seems to be the two conclusions that come up most in reference to men and sex.
Maybe I'm rambling...I'm not very sure how I feel about all of this. I agree that having sexy images of women everywhere affects how men see their wives to some degree...I just think that most men KNOW that real women aren't like that, and can be happy with a woman who is "imperfect".
Posts: 6367 | Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
Ooo, PSI, good point about the two conflicting ideas. Perhaps I should change that to "mate with anything *hot* on two legs."
In my post, I put forth the idea that while a man might be willing to have sex with an "average" chick, he would prefer a "hot" chick. I don't want "willing", I want passion!! I don't want it to be about "just" sex, I want it to be about wanting me! Is that selfish?
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
Oh, and PSI, believe me, you *will* get a chance to see my handsome hubby soon. I'm having some pictures posted on foobonic! Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
No, and my husband and I agree with you. That's why we don't have cable, don't watch TV, and don't go to mall, or shopping at any place that has somewhat explicit nudity in the windows. My husband gives me his car mags to let me tear out the pictures of scantily-clad women before he reads them. That was his choice by the way...I didn't hen-peck him into that. We check on each other at random times to make sure our internet usage is clean.
These were things we decided to do TOGETHER...it isn't all about me policing him. He polices me too, because we feel like both partners can be royally screwed up by things that they see on a regular basis. We keep each other accountable.
This seems extreme to most people, but we feel it's necessary, and don't think that any lengths are too long to go to in order to keep our marriage as good as it can be. We've both seen first-hand how much pain can be caused by porn in the family, and want to avoid that as much as possible.
So now you know how I REALLY feel about it, all other discussion aside.
Posts: 6367 | Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
PSI, I really respect your husband for being so motivated and caring about your relationship enough to do that.
I am also very grateful that my husband agrees with me on these subjects, because I would feel like such a loser if I was trying to convince my husband to avoid oogling and he just totally didn't understand why it should bother me.
Now, part of his discipline is faith motivated. If he were not a man of faith, I think he porn might be a part of his life. I can't speak for him on that though. But this is one of the ways that I feel like my faith protects and blesses me rather than restricting me. My faith encouraged me to marry a man who loves God as much (if not more than) he loves me. I have done that, and it is one of the best decisions I have ever made.
Oh, and was it Book who said he couldn't imagine continuing to view porn when married? There are probably a lot of bachelors that feel so. After all, marriage means steady sex, right? Well, for some men, marriage means getting tired of sex with the same woman, at least at some of the time. Such men might have strong desires to return to the porn that they found so stimulating before when they get tired of "grilled cheese for lunch everyday".
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
You know people bring up that "grilled cheese for lunch everyday" argument with me when I tell them I plan on marrying forever, and not "experiment to make sure it works" first. I always remind them that they're talking to a person who willing eats the same thing for dinner every night, whose gone to a Chinese restraunt every week for 9 years and has ordered a grand total of two different things there. Grilled cheese sounds fabulous.
posted
My favorite restaurant is a Spanshi tapas place tucked away in a neighborhood in downtown, and in two years, I don't think I've had the same thing twice.
My point was more that the standards are imposed by women on themselves and on other women. Which guy you go home with depends more on her actions than on the mens' decisions -- The best looking man in the room might be perfectly willing to go home with you -- and he very well might -- *if* the hottest girl doesn't get to him first or try to steal him away from you. You're both real, after all, you're not models or porn stars, and heck, maybe neither of you is all *that* attractive.
I don't know, I'm getting tangled up in my words here. My only point, though, was that I think it's *women's* standards of beauty that are being affected by the inundation of images, not men's. At least not to the same degree, anyway.
Posts: 1784 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
Ah. For a minute I thought that PSI was saying that "Beef and Broccoli," "Orange Chicken" and "egg drop soup" were pet names she and her husband have for each other.
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
*grin* It's for dates. On top of yummy food, it's cozy, somewhere between casual and formal so you can wear anything, there's live music, and it's family-run by people with charming accents and 11-year-olds in velvet. I love it.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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quote: My point was more that the standards are imposed by women on themselves and on other women. Which guy you go home with depends more on her actions than on the mens' decisions -- The best looking man in the room might be perfectly willing to go home with you -- and he very well might -- *if* the hottest girl doesn't get to him first or try to steal him away from you. You're both real, after all, you're not models or porn stars, and heck, maybe neither of you is all *that* attractive.
My point is, I don't want to go home with a guy who is willing but would rather have gone home with "the hot chick". I want the guy to want to be with me the most. How is that affected by women's expectations?
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
One interesting thing that this discussion about hotness made me think about:
My girlfriend doesn't particularly think I'm hot. Which is true. I'm certainly not hot. I mean, I might be kinda cute sometimes, but I'm definitely not hot. I've heard her point out other guys who are hot, and it makes me feel a little disappointed with how I look. But on the other hand, she told me one time that she wouldn't want me to be hot because it would only cause her to focus on her own imperfections more.
posted
I know I wouldn't want to be with a really hot guy, meaning the sort that all girls swoon for. It would do nothing for me and it would just increase the likelihood of him being flirted with or having a "big head" about his looks.
Nato, do you find your girlfriend hot? Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
You know, most of the actors that gals drool over, I don't. Please don't pelt me with pebbles, but I have never thought Brad Pitt was a big deal. I'm more of a Harrison Ford or Bruce Willis kinda gal. I find them both charming. Maybe I like smirks?
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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I like the way she looks. She's not "hot" I guess, but I don't really go for the "hot" look anyways. "Hot" is way too thin usually. In any case, I think she looks better than I do.
Posts: 1592 | Registered: Jan 2001
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posted
My girlfriend is more beautiful than any angel in heaven, and you can tell her I said so.
I think a relation needs at least some element of physical attraction, but qualities like "hotness", or thinking they're the most physically attractive person ever isn't necessary either. Basically, some physical components have to be there, ideally you'll be looking at this person for the rest of your life, it be best not to be repullesed by them.
Or you could get lucky like me and find the most physically gorgeous speciman of the opposite gender on the earth... if you're a girl that is, my opposite gender's best is taken.
quote:I think the women simply don't need men to look as good as men need women to look
It seems like this is the basis of most of what you're talking about. It's your opinion, and you're more than entitled to it, but it bears pointing out that just because it's your opinion doesn't necessarily mean it's true. The fact that it may be the common wisdom also doesn't necessarily mean it's true.
quote:At least in my case, I am capable of being attracted to a fairly "unattractive" man if the right other ingredients are there
I think the key thing about this statement is that you qualified it. The right other ingredients need to be there. An ugly guy without the other ingredients would probably not attract you. I would imagine that most guys are this way as well, that they are capable of being attracted to unattractive women provided certain other qualities are present. Of course, this is just my opinion, so it's not necessarily the case.
quote:My point is, I don't want to go home with a guy who is willing but would rather have gone home with "the hot chick". I want the guy to want to be with me the most. How is that affected by women's expectations?
I think the problem with this discussion is that we don't seem to be differentiating between what I will call "hook-ups" and "relationships." I was never part of the singles scene, so I may be way off base here, but bear with me. I posit that most people looking to pick someone up or be picked up in a bar or similar scene is typically going to be far more interested in "shallow" qualities than other more "meaningful" ones, regardless of gender. That is, in such a situation, both men and women will be attracted to things like physique, facial features, scent, hairstyle, fashion, voice, the appearance of wealth, or "charm." I could be wrong, as I said I never really did that sort of thing, but it seems reasonable to me that people seeking other people in such a situation are more likely to be looking for a hook-up than a relationship. Really, most of the "deeper" qualities cannot be accurately assessed in one night out at a bar.
Regarding relationships, it seems unlikely to me that anything remotely approaching a majority of men base their potential long-term partners' attractiveness on purely--or even mainly--physical qualities. If this is true, then the only question then is whether men are more likely than women to seek out a hook-up and less likely to seek out a relationship. This might be the case--indeed, this is the common wisdom--but I don't have any data to say one way or the other.
Posts: 4534 | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
Interesting point, Saxon, about the "shallowness" of a bar encounter to begin with. No arguments there, I was responding to someone else's example.
I guess another frustration I have is when I see so many single girl friends of mine who are passed over time and time again by guys. They are pleasant, intelligent, kind, beautiful people. Most often, the common feature they share is being overweight. The funny thing is that the girls in these examples are quite attractive, just not thin. So it is tempting to draw conclusions from what I have seen. So many guys I hear say that the women portrayed in the media are too thin. Yet why are these lovely, plump girls not finding love as easily as my more slender friends?
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote: The funny thing is that the girls in these examples are quite attractive, just not thin.
Beverly, I learned a long time ago that women are not the best judges of what a guy finds attractive. You are right tho, despite all the rhetoric, it appears thin girls get guys a lot easier then plump ones--regardless of what men say. I don't think these guys are shallow either.
posted
...because women like men for who they really are!
Alexa, I think people in general like to go out with other people who are not 'plump'. *My* anectdotal experience is that there are way more guys who go out with fat girls than vice versa. *sticks tongue out at silly person*
posted
I don't know what you are defining as plump/overweight but with our possible different definitions of that in mind:
One of the qualities I like in anyone (and since we are talking about relationships this case would be females) is caring enough about your personnal health to stay relativley fit. I am too tired right now to search for articles to cite but I know I have read/heard of health problems caused by being overweight and I just would prefer to find a mate who cares enough about their health to stay in shape.
Posts: 21 | Registered: Apr 2004
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