posted
A general question about "out" culture vs. "in the closet" culture...
As an openly gay man, how would you feel if you met someone with great romantic possibility, but he was still in the closet? Would you still want to persue the relationship? Do you think you would encourage him to out himself?
Also, when is a person considered "out"? If all of a person's close friends, coworkers, etc. know, but not the person's parents and family, is he out? Are there "shades of out"?
How much time is reasonable between discovering/accepting that you are gay and coming out? Does a person who has known he is gay and has been dating men for, say, 10 years, but isn't out, set off alarm bells?
*really hopes not to offend*
Posts: 1676 | Registered: Jul 2000
| IP: Logged |
Great to have you back Caleb! Jeez, now that I got used to the other name, you bring back the Keats one...
Well whatever format you are in its welcome here.
Oh and Telperion, good to have you on hatrack. As far as I am concerned, the more diversity the better, and of course having another actual gay person to have the concervatives have to face intead of just having them be abstract shadow figures (just some conservatives, not you specifically, don't argue please!).
posted
Romany, as far as I'm concerned, the best way to support anyone, especially a teenager, is to make him or her completely certain that you care about their life. My response encompasses a couple of threads woven into this one, and I apologize in advance for stepping into this, as I am not a 27 Year Old Male Homosexual, but rather a currently hetero-leaning bisexual 39 year old woman.
When I was a confused teenager, I remember watching "10," and thinking Bo Derek was incredible. One of my older female cousins said to me, "Isn't she wonderful? I'd love to hold her." That was a valiation of what I felt, but didn't know I was allowed to feel. My cousin knew what I was feeling, but didn't want to force the issue, only acknowledge that what I felt was valid.
That particular cousin was fairly upfront about everything, however, I don't feel it's necessary to bring up the subject of sexuality to show support of a sexual orientation.
Posts: 230 | Registered: Sep 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I know we joke about it, but is Gaydar still being used, or did the devices never take off?
And do you guys, personally, believe that raising a child in a homosexual household is equal to raising a child in a heterosexual household, or that it's a little less than ideal, but still better than the average, imperfect hetero home? Or something else?
What's with the phrase "Good Times"? I hear it from straight friends now, but about five years back, I only heard it from gay friends (all in different parts of the country). Did it originate as a subtle way to "advertise"?
And what's the deal with antiques? I lived in Vermont, and those freaking shops were everywhere.
And I have to say, this is an entertaining thread. You guys rock. And you, too, bisexual woman.
Would you guys be offended if I made a list of my homosexual friends/aquaintences who are looking for long term relationships? ClaudiaTerese has the Matchmaker thing sort of locked up, but maybe she'd be willing to let me sub-let the homosexual section? It's a niche market that I seem to be perfect for, having uncanny Gaydar myself.
Does anyone else find it interesting that of our three actively-posting male homosexuals, TWO are named Karl?
Posts: 9293 | Registered: Aug 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
(Know any nice girls or boys? It doesn't matter to me, as long as they are not goons)
A twink is a young skinny man.. Like Justin on QAF... 18, but looks a bit younger.. I think someone bight have a better definition...
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged |
My friend once made a prank phone call to the gay bar downtown on a dare. The dare was to call the bar and ask for Bruce. The guy who answered wanted to know "which one."
I must admit that I've been on a "date" with a gay guy. I thought it would just be two buddies having a night out on the town, but he took me to Nordstrom and had me try on shoes.
Posts: 2655 | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged |
Frisco: I definitely have seen the Gaydar at work, and I've had touches of Gaydar-sense before. A semi-closeted gay friend has asserted that he has 'impeccable' gay-dar, often guessing a person's gayness before that person comes out.
Posts: 1892 | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
Okay, Syn... How old are you and where are you? Geography can suck when it comes to internet love And I don't think I really know any femmes of the appropriated inclinations. I do, However , have a really sweet and nice brother-in-law, who is in his early twenties. He's a gamer, and he's shy. He seems to fall for artistic types (read: nutcases ).
Actually, you might wanna try the matchmaker thread. I knew several lesbian girls in HS (though they weren't out at the time) but I have completely lost touch with them all. Oddly enough, they were all named Amy (Aimee, Ami, etc.).
Posts: 9293 | Registered: Aug 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
I know I'm a borderline luker half the time, but sheesh! Why do all the interesting threads start when I'm not looking?
(Hi TTS! Nice first name. )
Regarding online dating: Most of the sites set up for gay men to meet are sites for hooking up for sexual purposes. It isn't easy to meet people for long-term purposes on those sites since many of them are just looking for sex. Also many of them are looking for it online because they are either too closeted to go to the bars or are cheating on their wife, partner, or boyfriend. Others are not interested in anything but playing around. However, that said, those sites are not entirely useless. Most of them let you post a photo and most let you include a profile. Many men will put x-rated photos and profiles listing only what type of sex they want. However, others will put face photos and what their interests are and sometimes specifically state that they are interested in a long-term relationship (LTR).
Also, there are many sites for gays to meet that aren't specifically sexual in nature. Gay.com is one, I think. And I think there are also non-sexual personals at planetout.com.
On a personal note, my current boyfriend and I met online. We chatted and decided to meet, and the first thing we did was go see a movie. Now it's 9 months later and we're sharing an apartment. I know it's quick, but I've never been with anyone as compatible as he and I are.
Posts: 6394 | Registered: Dec 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
Would I pursue a relationship with someone who was closeted? At this point in my life, probably not. If I was very attracted to them and we got along well, I would do all I could to encourage them to come out, but if they were adamant about remaining in the closet, I'd have to move on. Life it too short to waste it hiding from people. And nowadays it's usually no big deal to come out as far as work or friends are concerned. Family is a different issue, but regardless of the reaction if you can't be yourself to your family then what good is the relationship you're (supposedly) trying to protect anyway?
I have a gay friend right now who is VERY closeted. It's a bit rediculous because he'd set off even the some of the weakest gaydar out there. But he's afraid of his family finding out. And his work. And his friends. He keeps his straight friends segregated from his gay friends, and for this reason, I think, he doesn't have a lot of gay friends. He also longs desperately for a LTR, but no self-respecting gay man is going to put up with living in his closet so he ends up with a series of one-night-stands and clandestine interent hookups. Chris and I are trying to maintain a friendship with him because he's a nice guy and deserves better than he is allowing himself. But he'll never be happy until he is OUT.
Posts: 6394 | Registered: Dec 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
Like John, I've given off quite a few of false positives. I almost think I've been hit on by more guys than girls over the years. But, really, I think it has more to do with guys being a lot less subtle. Or maybe I'm more able to pick up on the signals? Or maybe I just think an awful lot about myself Posts: 3243 | Registered: Apr 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
Now I have wondered women trying to convert gay men to hetersexuality. I don't doubt that some of it is the idea "He hasn't met *me* yet".
But I wonder if there might be more to it. It seems to me that more and more our culture is saying that the best kind of man for women to be in a relationship with is a man that you think might be gay, but who turns out to be straight. Maybe some women are attracted to gay men because they are trying to avoid the stereotypical straigt man -- obnoxious, drunk, and watching football and porn.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
25 by the way. It would be nice to have a man I could chill with who would be nice to cuddle and not neassasarily get all fresh... What do you think of women who are into things like yaoi and slash? That is a fascinating phenomenom
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
It does seem like girls and gay guys make great friendships. Gay guys can be close and emotionally intimate with a girl and unintimidated because there is no romantic possibility. Emotional intimacy is just the sort of thing many girls long for from their straight-guy love interests. A girl may look at that and think, "This is exactly what I want in a boyfriend!" So she begins to pine after this man who will never think of her that way. I can't help but feel for those girls, being a girl myself.
Sorry about the lack of girl groupies, KarlEd. If you have had close girl friends, they may have pined after you and you not known about it.
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged |
Syn, my brother-in-law is into Anime, and I think he's gleaned from my collection that I like Yaoi, though not so much the explcit kind. I really liked Descendants of Darkness:
Sort of like the X-Files in the afterlife, with mildly subtextual boy/boy romance. Plus, vampires, demons, mad scientists... Golly, Anime is fun!
Anyway, to you Male Homosexual posters, I'm curious about Syn's question, too. I mean about Yaoi, Slash and why it seems to be largely produced by heterosexual females. Do you think it's silly, or do you even know what I mean?
Posts: 9293 | Registered: Aug 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
I've found it the opposite, most of my female friends are either lesbians or bi (I'm a straight female). However, I know two openly gay guys (our school is MUCH crueler to homosexual guys than girls, is that normal?) and am not friends with either of them, even though I know them both fairly well.
Posts: 4655 | Registered: Jan 2002
| IP: Logged |
quote:As an openly gay man, how would you feel if you met someone with great romantic possibility, but he was still in the closet? Would you still want to pursue the relationship? Do you think you would encourage him to out himself?
Also, when is a person considered "out"? If all of a person's close friends, coworkers, etc. know, but not the person's parents and family, is he out? Are there "shades of out"?
There are different levels of ‘out’. In my case being ‘out’ means that everybody who really knows me is aware of it. I don’t wear freedom beads or rainbow buttons or anything like that (I do have an earring, though… does that count?). And I’m not all that obvious so I generally have to be asked. When I’m asked I always tell the truth. I don’t feel the need to make people unnecessarily uncomfortable so I pretty much keep it to myself as long as it doesn’t cost me anything. My most extreme example of that would be my father’s entire family. I fully intend to have ‘the talk’ with my dad eventually—though it’s more than possible that he already knows—but I’d prefer to wait until after my grandparents kick the bucket. They are VERY old-fashioned and I respect and love them way too much to burst their bubble about who I am. And I don’t want to cause a heart attack, either. The general rule outside of that one context is that if I care about you than you know about it. Or if you ask about it I’ll tell you. I have a fairly open-minded workplace so that’s easier for me to do. I’ve been in other work situations where it would not be okay to be honest about yourself, however, and I wouldn’t immediately judge anybody who decided to keep their private life and their public life slightly separated. It isn’t for me, but there was a time when it was and I can certainly understand that.
The deal breaker on outness, for me, is whether or not you lie about it. Or perhaps more specifically, whether or not you are motivated by fear or shame to keep yourself hidden from the world. There wouldn’t be much romantic possibility for me with somebody who was of two minds with themselves. I would only encourage somebody to out themselves if they had already decided they wanted to do it. I would encourage anybody to accept themselves and take an active role in their destiny. It is the acceptance of self that allows one to stand before his peers and be immune to judgment.
But coming out is different for everybody. I know a guy who, as a teenager, one day tore down all of his Madonna posters and replaced them with Leonardo Di’Caprio posters. Can’t get much more obvious than that. For me there was no party or parade or changing of the guard. Just an excrutiatingly honest moment with somebody I cared about too much to let go without knowing the truth, even though I knew it would cost me a lot more than I wanted to pay.
Romanylass:
quote:What is the best way for an adult to support a closeted gay teen?
The teen will most likely have self-esteem issues, so one of the best things to do would be to help build on that in whatever way is most applicable to the individuals involved. Unfortunately I can’t really be more specific than that because I never had the luxury of a supportive authority figure or a community that did not ostracize the idea of homosexuality. I’ve heard that PFLAG is a pretty good group to go to for that kind of thing. I’m sure there are other groups as well. School counselors north of the Mason Dixon line would have resources to recommend (and some south, too). You could also seek resources or advice from groups like the Human Rights Campaign.
Aka:
quote:Do girls often try to convert you? (to heterosexuality, I mean)
Is that an offer?
I wouldn’t say often, but it does happen. I get hit on a lot by women but they usually back down in disappointment when I tell them why they’re not even on my short list. Most of them are quite cool with it, though, because as we discussed earlier, many women enjoy having nonsexual intimacy that their hetero counterparts are all too often incapable of providing.
Frisco:
quote:I know we joke about it, but is Gaydar still being used, or did the devices never take off? What's with the phrase "Good Times"?
I’ve never seen one. They are not really necessary. I used to use the phrase ‘good times’ back in high school, along with everyone else. Most of them straight. You are just behind on the times.
Olivet:
quote:Would you guys be offended if I made a list of my homosexual friends/aquaintences who are looking for long term relationships?
First of all, those pictures are pretty old. I’ll see if I can send you some newer ones later today.
Secondly, I wouldn’t be offended; I’d be embarrassed. Though if you can find me a nice Scorpio between 20 and 28, maybe we can talk. Posts: 4350 | Registered: Sep 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
It's something about the way their minds work; I'm a sucker for it. I've dabbled in astrology quite a bit, actually... one of my favorite resources is the Personolgy guide, the first edition of which focusses on each day of the year and comparison biographies of famous individuals who were born on that day throughout history. The second edition is a relationship guide that does the same thing, only with the weeks of the year. It can give you insight into any relationship with anybody, basically, from friends to lovers to family members.
Scorpios can be a piece a work, but to an Aquarius such as myself they are somewhat mutable and very conducive to personal and spirituatl growth.
Er... back to your regularly scheduled Mormonism.... Posts: 4350 | Registered: Sep 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
The poet in me is interested in astrology in theory but the skeptic in me supplies the grains of salt. But that said, I have to say that Chris and I (both Sagittarius) are about as compatible as two people can possibly be. I get along better with him than I do with myself.
Oh, and for anyone interested, I was mostly joking about the implication of dissappointment that I've never had a woman try to convert me. It's like the straight guy who wonders why none of his gay friends hit on him. Is he not attractive? What?
It's a science that's been around much longer than any of today's modern religions. At the least you can say that everything carries some characteristics lent to it by the time in which it exists, from wine to politics to people and their personalities.
Whether or not the cycles of the universe are related to the cycles of humanity is another question. I found the possibility intriguing enough to look into it. After a while you can start guessing people's birthdays with reasonable accuracy, and that's always fun.
Note that I do not subscribe to horoscope-styled astrology. People are individuals first and organized into classes second. You'll find no value in the horoscope section of your Sunday paper.
Posts: 4350 | Registered: Sep 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
Thanks JK. I'll set her up with the local PFLAG, luckily here in the Seattle area they advertise in all the papers. This young lady, 16, goes to church with me and I'm the first adult in the congregation she came out to. Unfortunately, she will have to set up alternative living arrangements before coming out to her dad.
Posts: 2711 | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
That's really tough, romanylass, and I feel for all involved. PFLAG is a really good idea in this case, because it's a community of parents and friends and they can possibly help her deal with the situations she'll face in her own household.
You know, while I don't personally believe in astrology, I find it a lot more interesting than, say, the Chinese years. I mean really, are they trying to tell me that everyone born in a certain year is going to have anything in common? That is a bit much to swallow. I think of kids in my grade growing up. It is laughable.
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
That's exactly what I always thought. How can it possible that everyone I went to school with all had the similar personalities and were best suited to date people who were five grades up from us?
But I realize that my knowledge of the Chinese astrological calendar is limited to what I've read on placemats at Chinese restaurants. And considering that they rarely get the FOOD to be authentic, I wouldn't exactly say that I'm an expert on it.
Posts: 4350 | Registered: Sep 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
Any astrology based solely on a person's sun sign is woefully incomplete.
Reading a person's birthchart is much more interesting... It can "explain" why a Virgo like me tends to be so disorganized (Hint: it may have something to do with 4 of the other planets being in Libra, perhaps?)
posted
And me having several planets in Scorpio might also have something to do with why I love the way their minds work, too.... Posts: 4350 | Registered: Sep 2000
| IP: Logged |
That site has your answer Olivet. I googled it cause I had NO CLUE what you guys are talking about.
Of course I am still a 22YOM Heterosexual, but I have google, and am a little disappointed I can't answer the questions in this one...
Posts: 5656 | Registered: Oct 1999
| IP: Logged |
Oh...and one day I wore a silver ring...it only fit on my ring finger and I wore it on my right hand...and a gay friend of mine told me to put it on another finger.
quote:Syn, my brother-in-law is into Anime, and I think he's gleaned from my collection that I like Yaoi, though not so much the explcit kind. I really liked Descendants of Darkness:
Why do gay men love me so much? Caleb, we've spent time together. Do you have any answers?
I live in a community with a high percentage of gay people. I swear I can't walk down Hawthorne street without getting checked out or talked to at least three times.
And I am NOT the stereotypical pretty boy. I am too thick around the middle, lost my abs years ago, and have too many scars on my face.
What is it about me that they love so much?
Caleb, I didn't know you were gay back when we were hanging out, but I never noticed you checking me out. So, given that you are immune to my charms, can you give me an unbiased answer on this question? I would really appreciate it.
Posts: 5383 | Registered: Dec 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
Thanks, JaneX! Though I don't really get why that would make me cool.
However, You can get Descendants of Darkness on Netflix, and I reccommend playing it with Japanese dialogue and subtitles. The English dubbing just seems funny. For one thing, the little owl guy has this serious, deep voice, even though he's obviously a comic character. And in the English, the characters do a lot of unneccessary explaining ("so I chased him down" as we are watching a flashback of somebody chasing somebody else, and catching them. DUH.)
Xavior: Thanks for the site. There was a lot there, and most of it I didn't know. Lot more complex than it seems. Still not sure I understand it, though.
Slash, hon, lots of gay men like the manly men, and, soft middle or not, that's what you are. Plus, scars only add to that particular aura. Our buddy Nash has the same sort of experience. He sort of looks like a Russian mobster, but he has this... thing about him that says "I have nothing to prove."
But I know that doesn't really answer your question, as I'm not a gay man, though certainly immune to your charms. Posts: 9293 | Registered: Aug 2000
| IP: Logged |
quote:Thanks, JaneX! Though I don't really get why that would make me cool.
Because you like yaoi. I thought it was just a teenage girl thing, since all the other yaoi fans I've met are teenage girls. But see? There are mature women out there who like yaoi, too.
posted
Synth, I didn't know what Yaoi was till I googled it just now.
I guess this must be the female response to hetero guys liking girl/girl action. Maybe most flesh'n'blood males just are not beautiful enough to make it worth a girls while. Bishis are eye candy!
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
KarlEd, Halla thinks Nero is pretty cool, if that's any consolation.
JohnKeats, my theory is that gay guys are especially attractive to girls because they will be your friend without ever giving you the feeling they are hitting on you. The absence of pressure is very interesting, perhaps... the emphasis on friendship. And maybe girls like a challenge, too.
Slashy, I imagine gay guys like you for the same reason girls do! Posts: 5509 | Registered: May 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
Great thread, and I love the fact that everyone has been ...well,polite, for lack of a better word.
You know, I usually avoid all the various gay threads here at hatrack, for a couple of reasons. First, I tend to judge people on how they act (or here on-line, what they say), and not just as a label, and so I avoid thinking about people's sexuality in an attempt to aviod labeling them. Second, The threads seem to get everyone all riled up here.....sometimes a little too riled up. I come here to hatrack because I enjoy talking to (or sometimes talking AT) most of the people here, and I don't like it when people get all fired up with each other. I am not shy, nor do I fear an argument, but I hate it when all intelligence seems to flee and flame wars break out.
Also, to be honest, I have had a problem with gay men a few times in my life, and that soured me to what I viewed as the gay lifestyle. I try to realize that you can't over-generalize with any group, gay or straight, and I try to respect other views, even when they aren't in agreement with my own, but sometimes I catch myself feeling uncomefortable for no apparent reason, simply because I am in a discussion about gay rights, or behavior, or whatever.
So I am somewhat suprised to find myself in here, and even more in here with something to say.
Most of my recent friendships with gay men have been good friendships, but that wasn't always the case. I currently live near Northampton, Ma, which is the home to the largest population on lesbians in the US (I think....if not, it's real close), and there are a lot of gay men in the area as well. I went to a gay bar with a friend from school one day, without knowing it was a gay bar. It was one of the most uncomfortable situations I have ever experienced, as I am not gay, nor had I ever been exposed to that lifestyle before. My friend assumed I knew he was gay, and was suprised to find that I wasn't gay. His so-called gaydar had told him that I was gay, and he assumed that my offer of a drink was a pass.
Well, I was very upset. I am a very outgoing person, not shy at all, and I knew I wasn't gay, but trying to convince some of Danny's "friends" of this was impossible. Danny was mortified, and was fine with it, but his "friends" were completely obnoxious. They said I was in Denial, and that I was gay EVEN IF I WOULDN'T ADMIT IT TO MYSELF!
Now, I was a psych major, so I knew that some people ARE in denial, but I had never (and still don't) been attracted to a man, so I knew I wasn't gay. But how do you prove it, at least to others? You can't.
I read a lot. I love kids. I love puppies, and classical music.....for Christ sake, I played flute for 11 years! It wasn't the first time I had been called gay, or had my sexuality questioned.
I AM different, but different doesn't mean you're gay. However, nothing I said made a difference to them, so after a half hour of this I stood up to leave.
Then one of the guys grabbed my butt. I knew he was drunk, but I didn't care.I slapped his hand away, and he took a swing at me, calling me a tease! It turned ugly, and the police were called. I got out of there just in time, and had to call for a ride for the first time in my life, as my car was still 30 miles away.
I know, intellectually, that most men, gay or not, aren't pigs, but it took me years to stop hating gay men because of this incident. I was aware of my prudjuce, but that didn't mean it went away. I was raised to be tolerant of other people, but I had to work at it.
Danny was arrested, as were 3 of his friends. He refused to name me as the guy who threw the first punch, but he never really spoke to me again. As far as I know he still thinks I was lying to him about my sexual orientation.
Gaydar isn't infallable, any more than straight guys are infallable when figuring out which women are sexually interested in them. How many times have you been wrong about that (or had a man be wrong about you if you are a woman) in your life?
I am still straight (no suprise there), and I am now married to JenniK. I have relatives who are gay (including one who was the president of the dancers union on Broadway) and I love them and wish them happiness. I have friends who are gay, and are very open about it, and the only rule I have for them is "don't offer too much info.", which I try to follow myself. I don't want to hear about their sex life, and I know they don't want to hear about mine.....
Take my word for it, gaydar is a myth, and a dangerous one at that. You can play flute, love kids and dogs, be respectful of others and still NOT be gay. I don't know any other way to be than the way that I am, and I don't want to find another way, thank you very much. I love the fact that I am different.
I just find it sad that some people assue that they know your sexual orientation because of those type of things, and label you gay, even if you aren't.
Kwea
P.S. I know they were idiots.....and that most people aren't like that. Most of my friends who are gay are very respectful, but even they talk as if they can tell by osmosis sometimes....and that bothers me....
posted
When H? I seem to have a collection of friends who are into Yaoi... One is even a lesbian. Which is extremely interesting. Yaoi is quite nice as long as it's not about Japanese rockstars that are real people. That just squicks me. And sadly I do not have a picture of me on hand.
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Kwea, maybe gaydar in your case just means that men find you outrageously attractive and some of them can't help themselves but go after you.
Trying to put a positive angle on your bad experience.
As you know, the problem you dealt with is disrespectful people, not gay people. Bars in general are not exactly the first place you'd go to find especially respectful people. There are just as many predatory homosexuals as there are predatory heterosexuals. At least proportionally.
Slash:
Um, I've been avoiding answering your question... could you tell? Frankly I'm not sure why you get hit on all the time. I already knew you were married way before we met so it wouldn't have crossed my mind to come on to you, had I been interested. Nor would I have been able to do so back then, anyway. Plus, you're what... 20 years older than me? Might it have something to do with the sign on your back that says "go ahead, make my day"?
And Olivet, I'd never heard of Yoai-Maui-Wowee-whatchamacalit before this thread so I couldn't answer any of those questions either. Today I'll have the tools I need to take my pictures from my camera to my computer, so I can follow up with recent pics tonight.
Posts: 4350 | Registered: Sep 2000
| IP: Logged |
Printer-friendly view of this topic
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Evil Laugh]](graemlins/evillaugh.gif)
![[Grumble]](graemlins/grumble.gif)
[has never had a girl try to convert him] ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
*focusses guilt ray on Caleb*![[Confused]](confused.gif)
![[Cool]](cool.gif)
![[Blushing]](graemlins/blushing.gif)
are there any pic of you on the net that i could see 
