posted
Is there a reason you didn't include the Dalai Lama, or any Hindu spiritual leaders?
I'm just saying that if you're going to get all those folks together, you might as well include some of the leaders of Buddhism and Hinduism. After all, those faiths are followed by billions of people. And they could certainly help in any peacful prayer endevors.
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posted
I think he's naming the leaders of the groups more commonly associated with violence, and specifically, violence influenced by religion.
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There's so many things wrong with that I don't know where to start.
Singling them out to pray for peace presupposes that they are endorsing the violence now and/or their prayers would be more effective than his own. And so my response is: what on earth? are you kidding?
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posted
I wonder what would happen if all of them excommunicated everyone who claims to be of the religion they lead.
Either way, I don't think he is necessarily blaming the church/mosque/temple fathers (etc.) for the violence. I think he's idealistically hoping that if the leaders of religions that are often at odds with each other were to get together, team up, and show a united front for peaceful coexistance, that the rest of the world and their followers would fall in line.
I think they'd get further with excommunications, it removes the umbrella they work with, and might get the real faithful to stand up to them. Everything else is just ignorable words.
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quote:if the leaders of religions that are often at odds with each other were to get together, team up, and show a united front for peaceful coexistence, that the rest of the world and their followers would fall in line.
This hasn't exactly happened for anything else, unfortunately.
My impression is that there is a perception that leaders have much greater control over the actions of the members of their flocks than they actually do.
Most churches don't have real active excommunication policies, the idea being, I think, that keeping someone within the fold leaves a chance to reach them while exile is washing one's hands of them.
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quote:This hasn't exactly happened for anything else, unfortunately.
Such as?
quote:My impression is that there is a perception that leaders have much greater control over the actions of the members of their flocks than they actually do.
Agreed, mostly. Some religious leaders really DO have that kind of control and power, especially in the Muslim world. I can't say one way or the other about Jewish religious leaders, I really have no idea, and it's all over the board in Christianity. But I agree that on average, on the whole, the perception of influence is far from the reality of influence.
quote:Most churches don't have real active excommunication policies, the idea being, I think, that keeping someone within the fold leaves a chance to reach them while exile is washing one's hands of them.
As you said, that isn't the reality though. I understand the theory, but I think it's about as idealistically flawed as the idea that praying for peace is going to wave a magic wand and fix it. If they aren't listening, and don't respect the religious leaders, those leaders need to recognize that, rally what true followers they have, and kick the other guys out. They need to stop associating with people who don't share their beliefs.
I think, and this is without foundation, just a wondering, that many are afraid that kicking out that many people is admitting defeat, and possibly could be construed as a statement that religious leaders aren't what they used to be.
They NEED to wash their hands of them, rather than guarding them in the hems of their robes, which more often than not seemed to be stained by the blood their false followers spilled.
A thousand years ago, those that claimed to be part of a religious group that didn't really follow the rules, that in fact patently broke them, defied church leaders, and went on killing sprees were kicked out, and usually much more violently than a simple slap on the wrist and a pink slip.
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posted
Prometheus -- if you want to get a Christmas present from each of those men, what are you getting them?
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quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: I think he's naming the leaders of the groups more commonly associated with violence, and specifically, violence influenced by religion.
So does that mean that I should be glad or annoyed that while some dozen Christian sects are represented, the only Jewish "representative" is from the smallest and least-accepted (because it isn't really a religious group at all, really) so-called Jewish group one could think of?
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posted
My point is that I wasn't. Of all the things that take the label "Judaism" but have nothing to do with a religion actually resembling Judaism, Reconstructionism has to be highest on the list.
They don't even believe in the existence of God!
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oh my...I'm gonna stay out of this. I don't think this is a good way to start after introducing one's self.
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If they don't believe in the existence of God, then hoping that they'll pray for peace is probably futile.
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quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: I think he's naming the leaders of the groups more commonly associated with violence, and specifically, violence influenced by religion.
So does that mean that I should be glad or annoyed that while some dozen Christian sects are represented, the only Jewish "representative" is from the smallest and least-accepted (because it isn't really a religious group at all, really) so-called Jewish group one could think of?
That's a question for the new guy, but if you want me to take a stab at it...
I'd guess that referencing Jews at all refers to Palestine/Israel, and the most that MOST Americans know about it is whatever they see on the evening news, if they even bother to watch that. I'd say he just tossed it on there because the only other person to blame would be someone in the Israeli government, who wouldn't be a religious leader. That doesn't mean there aren't Jewish religious leaders out there to try and pin down, I just doubt he knows who any of them are, so he tossed the one he did know (or more likely bothered to google), and that's who became the Jewish representative.
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: If they don't believe in the existence of God, then hoping that they'll pray for peace is probably futile.
Oddly enough, they have a prayerbook, I think.
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: I just doubt he knows who any of them are, so he tossed the one he did know (or more likely bothered to google), and that's who became the Jewish representative.
Oh, probably. Except Google seems relatively unlikely, unless he used a rather odd set of keywords.
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quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: [qb] If they don't believe in the existence of God, then hoping that they'll pray for peace is probably futile.
Oddly enough, they have a prayerbook, I think.
In any case, expecting a Christmas present from a Jew seems odd.
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quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: If they don't believe in the existence of God, then hoping that they'll pray for peace is probably futile.
The Recon definition of God, as set down by their founder, Mordechai Kaplan. Note that this is blasphemy (a rabbi I once knew told me I should preface it with that warning in the future).
"God is a functional, rather than substantive noun, thus denoting that power in the cosmos, including man, that makes for the salvation of men and nations."
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quote:I think he's naming the leaders of the groups more commonly associated with violence, and specifically, violence influenced by religion.
I don't think that's it at all, and I hope he comes back and clarifies it.
First, Hinduism certainly has its share of violence. If this were the criterion, it was poorly applied.
Second, all the people he mentioned are connected to religions that honor Abraham. It is considered a holy place by Muslims, Jews, and Christians. I don't know if Druze and B'hai consider it holy, but I could see why someone would think so, as both have Islamic roots.
In this light the choice makes sense if one takes a superficial knowledge of Judaism into account.
quote:Most churches don't have real active excommunication policies, the idea being, I think, that keeping someone within the fold leaves a chance to reach them while exile is washing one's hands of them.
Most Catholic excommunications are levied with the express hope that the person will come back, and the mechanism for doing so is an inherent part of the excommunication. It's true that excommunication is pretty rare, but it's not incompatible with leaving a chance to reach them and it's not washing one's hands of them.
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quote:Most Catholic excommunications are levied with the express hope that the person will come back, and the mechanism for doing so is an inherent part of the excommunication. It's true that excommunication is pretty rare, but it's not incompatible with leaving a chance to reach them and it's not washing one's hands of them.
Oh, I believe that. The LDS church does excommunication as well, with the same idea in mind. I was guessing as to why other churches don't.
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quote:This hasn't exactly happened for anything else, unfortunately.
Just because something hasn't happened before isn't any reason not to wish for it to happen in the future. It just means the wish is not likely to come true.
That said, I haven't a clue what the OP is trying to say here, or why.
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quote:"God is a functional, rather than substantive noun, thus denoting that power in the cosmos, including man, that makes for the salvation of men and nations."
Many times I have heard similar descriptions of God from the mouths of religious characters created by atheist writers.
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quote:This hasn't exactly happened for anything else, unfortunately.
Just because something hasn't happened before isn't any reason not to wish for it to happen in the future. It just means the wish is not likely to come true.
Wasn't it Einstein who said that the definition of insanity was doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results?
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posted
I don't mind other people expecting unlikely things, such as perfect obedience of members of a religion. I do mind implying that various religious leaders are failing in their responsibility for not producing that unlikely thing.
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quote:"God is a functional, rather than substantive noun, thus denoting that power in the cosmos, including man, that makes for the salvation of men and nations."
Many times I have heard similar descriptions of God from the mouths of religious characters created by atheist writers.
Yeah, but Kaplan really did write that. Which is why it's hard for a lot of Jews to take the Recon movement seriously.
Some people have joked that the Recon creed is "There is no God, and Mordechai Kaplan is his prophet."
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quote: Is there a reason you didn't include the Dalai Lama, or any Hindu spiritual leaders?
I included only leaders from Abrahamic religions as I couldn't think of any site sacred to both Abrahamic and Dharmic religions. The Tomb of the Patriarchs is a holy place for all religions which trace their roots to Abraham, but had little or no significance for other religions.
quote: I don't think he is necessarily blaming the church/mosque/temple fathers (etc.) for the violence. I think he's idealistically hoping that if the leaders of religions that are often at odds with each other were to get together, team up, and show a united front for peaceful coexistance, that the rest of the world and their followers would fall in line.
Right. The thing is, these are all very good men, men whom I respect enormously and men whom the world holds great esteem for becouse they are in fact good men. I have greater faith in them than in the more disreputable politicians.
quote: the only Jewish "representative" is from the smallest and least-accepted (because it isn't really a religious group at all, really) so-called Jewish group one could think of?
Sorry, I meant to include Conservative and Reform Rabbis as well, and Rabbi Sir Jonathan Henry Sacks, Chief Rabbi of the U.K.
However, while Reconstructionist Judaism is by far the smallest branch, I have always felt it was well-accepted. Not by the Orthodox and Ultra-Orthodox maybe, but by both the Reform and Conservative movements.
I am far from an expert in Jewish studies, but as far as I know, Reconstructionist Jews do believe in God. I know that they reject the idea that the Jews are a choosen people of God, but I didn't think they rejected the existence of God.
In adition to Reformed and Conservative Rabbis, I meant to add representitives from the Methodist and Prespyterian Churches.
I struggled with the inclusion or non-inclusion of various leaders. In the end, I decided not to include any Patriarchs thought to have been Soviet stooges.
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"Of all the things that take the label "Judaism" but have nothing to do with a religion actually resembling Judaism, Reconstructionism has to be highest on the list."
Don't Reconstructionist Jews place a higher emphasis on traditional Jewish practices than Reform? Yeah, they are fairly Theologicaly liberal, but so are many Christians and even a few Muslims.
Like I said, I am not an expert nor even Jewish, but that was the impression I got.
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quote:Wasn't it Einstein who said that the definition of insanity was doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results?
Yep. Of course, he was talking about experimental procedure. I'm not sure he meant for it to apply to hope.
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quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: Prometheus -- if you want to get a Christmas present from each of those men, what are you getting them?
I think he should get them Chia Pets. Everybody loves Chia Pets!
And I think that the idea of getting leaders of faith communities - or any communities - to pray for/work for/express a desire for peace is a hopeful and brave wish whatever the details.
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posted
Looking it up, Reconstructionist Jews do have a clear belief in God.
quote: Mitzvot are our particularly Jewish ways of responding to the universal God. We perceive God as demanding sacredness in general, and the Jewish mitzvot are our people's way of bringing that universal sacredness to the minutiae of daily life in our own specifically Jewish context.
From the Reconstructionist Rabinical College.
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quote:Originally posted by PrometheusBound: I am far from an expert in Jewish studies, but as far as I know, Reconstructionist Jews do believe in God. I know that they reject the idea that the Jews are a choosen people of God, but I didn't think they rejected the existence of God.
They use the word, but they've redefined it to mean something foreign to any religious concept of God in any religion ever. It's like me saying that God means a hollow truncated conical object made of styrofoam, and then claiming that I really do believe in God because I drink out of him every day.
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quote:Originally posted by PrometheusBound: Looking it up, Reconstructionist Jews do have a clear belief in God.
quote: Mitzvot are our particularly Jewish ways of responding to the universal God. We perceive God as demanding sacredness in general, and the Jewish mitzvot are our people's way of bringing that universal sacredness to the minutiae of daily life in our own specifically Jewish context.
From the Reconstructionist Rabinical College.
It means something a little different when you take their definition of the word into account.
Like in The Princess Bride. "You keep saying that. I don't think that word means what you think it means."
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quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: Prometheus -- if you want to get a Christmas present from each of those men, what are you getting them?
I think he should get them Chia Pets. Everybody loves Chia Pets!
And I think that the idea of getting leaders of faith communities - or any communities - to pray for/work for/express a desire for peace is a hopeful and brave wish whatever the details.
Does anyone remember Fuzzy Wuzzy Soap? It was like soap chia pets.
quote: They use the word, but they've redefined it to mean something foreign to any religious concept of God in any religion ever.
Lots of people believe in that definition of God, many liberal Christians and Hindu intellectuals for instance. It is even pretty close to the orthodox Quaker view. So, while it may be different from other Jewish schools of thought, it is not "foreign to any religious concept of God in any religion ever."
I will not deny that it is substantialy different from most orthodox religious views.
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quote:Originally Posted by Dagonee: I don't think that's it at all, and I hope he comes back and clarifies it.
First, Hinduism certainly has its share of violence. If this were the criterion, it was poorly applied.
I think he's focusing on what we commonly see in the news, which is Big Three violence. Yeah I know there are more Hindus than there are Jews (well, probably anyway), but for the sake of the argument, consider this the Abrahamic Big Three, as they are the ones constantly in the news for bombings, assasinations, etc.
So yes, I think he's naming leaders of the groups attached to religious violence, specifically, in conflicts we see on tv all the time.
I'd like to see him be more specific too. Maybe he's focusing on individual problems rather than going for peace on earth in its entirety.
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posted
I already said that I choose only leaders of Abrahamic faiths becouse the Tomb of the Patriarchs has religious significance to them alone. I did not draw only from the "Big Three" but included Druze and Bahai.
Leaders of Dharmic religions should also be active in promoting peace. There is no one place anywhere that Buddhists, Hindus, Sikhs and Jains all consider holy. Perhaps they might do as well to be seen praying together in the streets of Mumbai and New Delhi.
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quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: So yes, I think he's naming leaders of the groups attached to religious violence, specifically, in conflicts we see on tv all the time.
Except that the Recon movement doesn't even exist in Israel. It's a purely American phenomenon.
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PrometheusBound: Indeed. Perhaps we should find all leaders of all religions and have them pray/wise/advise for peace in some neutral location. The ISS, the United Nations, or the center of Antarctica.
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quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: So yes, I think he's naming leaders of the groups attached to religious violence, specifically, in conflicts we see on tv all the time.
Except that the Recon movement doesn't even exist in Israel. It's a purely American phenomenon.
Lisa, I don't think that's true any longer.
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quote:Yeah I know there are more Hindus than there are Jews (well, probably anyway), but for the sake of the argument, consider this the Abrahamic Big Three, as they are the ones constantly in the news for bombings, assasinations, etc.
So yes, I think he's naming leaders of the groups attached to religious violence, specifically, in conflicts we see on tv all the time.
They are also Abrahamic, and he picked the spot where Abraham is buried.
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posted
It appears to me that when Dag said "They ar also Abrahamic", he was referring to the Big Three, not to Hinduism.
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