posted
I was watching the Today Show this morning, and there was a couple whose baby is the smallest newborn on record.(smaller of twins) They moved here from India, and are Muslim. They thanked Allah for the blessing bestowed on them. Then the announcre said that the older twin would be home in time for Christmas.
Sorry, but I thought that was tacky.
[ December 22, 2004, 08:24 AM: Message edited by: Elizabeth ]
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posted
No, but its still an insult. The program announcer assumes they celebrate christmas, DESPITE the fact that they are muslim. If he'd done 3 seconds of thinking, he would have realized that muslims do not celebrate christmas.
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posted
You hardly have to look for the insult. That no insult is intended does not mean that no insult has been committed.
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posted
It's also a federal holiday, and a milestone for most of the viewers watching the show.
It might not be meaningful to the couple, but it's not insulting.
For example, if a doctor said to me, "you'll be home before the end of Ramadan" or "by Yom Kippur," it wouldn't insult me. But it might not give me any useful information, because I'm not exactly sure when those holidays are celebrated each year.
But, on the other hand, many many people who don't celebrate Christmas or New Years still get the day off so many times there IS some value in mentioning it. An nice three day weekend when each child comes home is nice even if they don't celebrate anything else. I don't know if this couple has jobs in America, though.
posted
It's sad that people would be insulted by something as trivial is that. One of the lessons our society most needs to learn is when NOT to be offended.
If it is not intended as an insult, it shouldn't be taken as an insult. If you take it as an insult nevertheless, that should be considered your mistake, not theirs.
posted
Dag- On the other hand, you're also a christian living in a country dominated by christians. They are muslims living in a country dominated by christians.
That makes your situation, and their situation, very different.
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posted
Yes, but Islam specifically allows Muslims to wish Christians "Merry Christmas" and to acknowledge festivals of other religions, even if those festivals commemorate beliefs anathema to Islam.
posted
I don't think it's a question of insult. No, no insult was intended, and probably none was taken. It's not that big a deal.
What it is, is incredibly tacky. It's the sort of comment that you make and then cringe and mentally kick yourself for. Not because it's insulting, but because you should have known better.
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posted
No, PaulGoldner, it makes you a bigot for assuming that any mention of a holiday that you personally don't celebrate is an attack on your ethnicity and/or religion.
posted
"If it is not intended as an insult, it shouldn't be taken as an insult. If you take it as an insult nevertheless, that should be considered your mistake, not theirs."
I disagree wholeheartedly with this statement. There may indeed be grounds for offense in statements not intended to be offensive.
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Yeah, if its directed at the audience, and the couple isn't involved, then its probably not taken as an insult. If the statement is made for the benefit of the couple, which is hard to tell from this context, then it IS insulting, because the announcer should have taken the time to realize that christmas, although a date they are aware of and have time off for, is not a special date. The context of the statement makes it clear that the intent is "Look! the kids will be home by this special date!" You don't use holidays in that context other then for warm-fuzzies. If you're trying to give the audience warm fuzzies, then you succeed. If you're trying to give the couple warm-fuzzies, then all you've done is shown how ignorant you are of them and their religion, and that you are boorish enough not to take the time to do research for a television show.
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posted
Because the statement can be factually interpreted as true. Christmas has a definite date. The child will be home by that date. Further, the date is a milestone recognized by the vast majority of the viewing public.
posted
I think the statement was tacky. Could even be called dumb because it likely has no meaning to the couple in question. If it were me, if something wished me a happy Kwanzaa (and I still don't know exactly what that is) as if it should mean something to me, I'd probably look at them with a blank stare, wondering what the heck was going on. Insulted? Probably not. But confused or wondering "what the heck?" Yeah, most likely.
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posted
Again, you're coming from the perspective of someone in the majority. Muslims are a marginalized people in our country right now.
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posted
I wonder if you can ask any muslim when this christmas time is?
Because I'm not jewish and I know when or at least around when hanukkah happens, and someone were to say Great! You'll be home in time for hanukkah. I wouldn't be offended.
Muslims do have a holiday in december.
*Disclaimer: I am not muslim.
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posted
1) Whether or not offense is intended has almost nothing to do with whether or not someone actually takes offense.
2) Of course a culture being marginalized matters in context of whether or not something is an insult. If you're of a culture that is marginalized, and someone makes a statement further marginalizing you (which this statement could have done, see my above post concerning the manner in which its insulting and the manner in which its not), then you FEEL that marginalization happening, and makes the statement offensive.
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posted
1) Someone takes offense because they want to take offense. 2) When people know they aren't in majority of anything they know to not worry about things like that. I know when games / software and anything else is going to be released, because I'm always paying attention to that, and I have branded myself a geek. Wether or not they have branded themselves as muslim or not, they Chose to be muslim because it fits, like I chose to be a geek because I like it. (or I chose to believe in god because I think it fits. -- if someone hates punk music or jazz or classical, I'm nice, and will usually listen to anything they want to listen to.)
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posted
"1) Someone takes offense because they want to take offense."
Hm. This is a very convenient way indeed to say that no one, anywhere in the world, should be hurt by anything that anyone else does. I wonder if you apply the same logic to your own interactions with people.
"2) When people know they aren't in majority of anything they know to not worry about things like that."
Ah. "Because they choose to belong to a religious minority, the rest of us don't need to worry about including them in our society...?"
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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quote:Whether or not offense is intended has almost nothing to do with whether or not someone actually takes offense.
Not true at all, because if someone meant to be offensive, and the target knows that, then offense will likely be taken even if the remark is not facially offensive.
quote:Of course a culture being marginalized matters in context of whether or not something is an insult. If you're of a culture that is marginalized, and someone makes a statement further marginalizing you (which this statement could have done, see my above post concerning the manner in which its insulting and the manner in which its not), then you FEEL that marginalization happening, and makes the statement offensive.
Nah, I don't buy it. I just had this discussion in another thread.
posted
Tom: Someone going into an emotional state over something (IE: offense) Because someone didn't mean to harm them, is entirely unacceptable by any standards.
Uh, not talking about christmas to them because they are muslim IS NOT including them in society.
posted
"Tom: Someone goiong into an emotional state over something (IE: offense) Because someone didn't mean to harm them, is entirely unacceptable by any standards."
So intent is all that matters? Or do you agree that if some harm occurs, even if it wasn't intended, that harm still occurred?
Like, for example, if I meant to save your baby from a robber but accidentally shot both the baby and the robber, you'd still have the right to be mad at me?
But if I meant to wish you a happy holiday, and instead reminded you that you are a second-class citizen in a society which remains largely ignorant -- even dismissive -- of your customs and traditions, you have only yourself to blame if you're hurt?
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posted
Taking lives and talking about thinks are completely different. Should we all go into a world where we can't say anything for fear of this "reminded you that you are a second-class citizen in a society which remains largely ignorant" ?
If you killed my son, I would be angered. But more-so to the person it needs it at. The robber.
Secondly, I would have had the gun, and if I had done that, it would have been pretty unforgivable for me to do it, and would have to hospitalize myself.
If harm is brought about, something should be done then by the party that is harmed. To prevent harm in further cases.
posted
"Nah, I don't buy it. I just had this discussion in another thread."
And you are still dead wrong. You're a white christian heterosexual male, so you have absolutely no clue what I'm talking about, and since you have no clue, just assume I'm blowing hot air.
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posted
In all fairness to Dag, Paul, Catholicism is enough of a minority in this country that I've seen him occasionally feel compelled to post to correct some incorrect impression. So he might know something about such feelings, although his behavior in those situations -- always polite, but often rather strained -- suggests that your assessment of such cases is closer than his to the reality of the situation.
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quote:And you are still dead wrong. You're a white christian heterosexual male, so you have absolutely no clue what I'm talking about, and since you have no clue, just assume I'm blowing hot air.
Tripe. Pure and simple unsubstantiated assumptions about what someone else is capable of knowing. Pretty much the flip side of your being called a bigot in this thread, and almost as inexcusable.
And if what you say is true, why are you bothering to tell me, since it's impossible for me to understand.
quote:In all fairness to Dag, Paul, Catholicism is enough of a minority in this country that I've seen him occasionally feel compelled to post to correct some incorrect impression. So he might know something about such feelings, although his behavior in those situations -- always polite, but often rather strained -- suggests that your assessment of such cases is closer than his to the reality of the situation.
And in those situations, where statements are made about Catholics or Catholicism, I explain the facts that underly any potential offensiveness, either to me or to other Catholics. It's only when people persist in their statements after they know it might be considered offensive that I would consider them offensive.
quote:Erm, catholicism is the largest religious sect in this country.
Anti-Catholicsm has a long and glorious history in this great nation of ours. There was a whole political party dedicated to it.
In fact, anti-Catholicism was one of the few things that could unite Protestant sects.
Even today, their is a strong Protestant/Catholic divide that, for comparison purposes, can cause the numbers of most Protestant denominations (or rather, denominations that represent the vast majority of Protestants in the country) to be aggregated.
posted
I don't agree with it being tacky, because if you should have known better, why didn't you?
This brings up the whole situation about people not being perfect. Just because he didn't know better doesn't mean he should feel shame. I'm starting to think that if it is wrong at all for him not to know it, it is just as wrong for the person that is or could be offended about it, not to pull him aside and say something, and possible fix the problem. (If it is a problem.) (Those affected by such problems I think are just as obligated to let people know about that it is a problem as the person that made a mistake unknowingly.)
posted
Oh, I know there's a nice tradition of anti-catholicism in this country, though I would argue that its mostly from fear of political influence of the pope, and largely a political fear, and doesnt carry over into other spheres the way that the marginalization of non-christians, non-whites, and homosexuals does.
"Tripe. Pure and simple unsubstantiated assumptions about what someone else is capable of knowing. Pretty much the flip side of your being called a bigot in this thread, and almost as inexcusable."
Yeah, it is tripe... but, they aren't unsubstantated assumptions. You've pretty well proven in discussions about this that you really don't understand people of marginalized cultures can feel further marginalized when people do things like this, that are unthinkingly harmful.
"And if what you say is true, why are you bothering to tell me, since it's impossible for me to understand."
Because I do think its possible to put yourself in someone else's shoes. I just don't think you've tried, or understood what it means to be of an excluded culture to the extent that you can try in a manner thats likely to get you anywhere.
" It's only when people persist in their statements after they know it might be considered offensive that I would consider them offensive."
So, then, you would agree that the statement at the beginning of this thread is offensive, as its almost impossible to live in this country and not know that people take these sorts of statements offensively?
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quote: I'm in the ElJay/dkw camp. Not insulting, but really tacky/silly.
Woo-hoo! We got Bok! *high-fives dkw*
quote: I don't agree with it being tacky, because if you should have known better, why didn't you?
Slip of the tounge. Haven't you ever said something and then immediately realized you should have known better? Maybe the announcer did, maybe someone else corrected him. Maybe the parents were too gracious to do so, considering they were being hosted on TV. I certainly would have let it slide in those circumstances. Not a huge deal, in the grand scheme of things. But I bet he realized what he had said and felt stupid immediately, and maybe even went and apologized for the slip. We can't know one way or the other, can we?
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posted
Yeah, I'm with the "tacky" people. (Ooooh - that sounded bad!) I seriously doubt the guy was like, "You know, I think I shall purposely offend these people by mentioning Christmas."
Stupid slip of the tongue. I know I've said things from my perspective that I've had to immediately apologize for.
posted
so, if I'm right, the person who said this was relaying information - they weren't the doctors telling the child exactly when the child was going to be home, it was the announcer or anchorperson passing on information to the public that was watching the show, right?
Christmas is a federal holiday, it's like someone already mentioned, a way of giving the listening public a milestone.
I don't see the problem??
It doesn't sound to me like it was an insult directed exactly toward the couple, but just a general, informational announcement to the American public, of which the vast majority DO celebrate Christmas and even those that don't know when it is.
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posted
Seems to me that this is a lot like accidentally asking a woman undergoing fertility treatments what's she planning on doing for Mother's Day this year. It's not deliberately offensive, but it's still painful for the other person, and deserves an apology.
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posted
Great, now I've got that quote from "Oh Brother Where art Thou" stuck in my head.
quote: ...and all those smart @$$ folks who think we come descended from monkeys!
P.S. On the original topic, what is so disturbing about realizing the media is a bunch of hairdos who don't think about anything before they say it? (no offense, Chris).
[ December 22, 2004, 02:28 PM: Message edited by: Trisha the Severe Hottie ]
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quote:You've pretty well proven in discussions about this that you really don't understand people of marginalized cultures can feel further marginalized when people do things like this, that are unthinkingly harmful.
So not agreeing with you means I don't understand?
posted
I don't think it is, in this case. Your statement that my comment is in reference to is pure ignorance. And I'd say that about anyone who thinks that someone who is marginalized on a daily basis won't feel further marginalized when a comment that distinguishes them from mainstream culture is made in reference to them or their culture.
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