posted
I was not going to post in this thread. There seems to be lots of arguing and very little listening; and since that's my natural tendency anyway, I was going to practice keeping my mouth shut. However, I would like to clarify a couple of things.
Bob, the rules of kashrut (keeping kosher) have little -- if anything -- to do with the safety of the food. And I find the phrase "wandering tribe(s) of recently escaped slaves" unnecessarily pejorative, as do several other phrases that strike my eye.
quote: Since I have to pick and choose just to make the silly thing relevant in any fashion
:raised eyebrow: Glad I don't have that problem.
aspectre, Bald men? I wish I knew what you were referring to. And death by stoning is a punishment for striking one's parent with sufficient force to draw blood or break a bone. And, as with any crime, the guilty party is only punishable by (human) courts if he were warned beforehand, and the offense was witnessed.
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posted
I think he's referring to the she-bears that took out the young men for telling Elisha to "Go up, you bald head!"
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posted
Kath, I heard the same article on NPR and I got a different reading of it. However, to do so takes time and he didn't have that time in this particular interview.
What he was saying is that gay people were in the clergy. To limit their position in the church to minor functionaries is going to force them to lie about their preferences. That is more damaging to a ministor or a bishop than his sexual practicies.
He earlier said that other translations of the bible describe not homosexual relations but abusive relations between men and boys, as was practiced by the Spartan-Greeks nearby, and by Male Prostitutes as was practiced by competing cults in the region.
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posted
I don't disagree with the fact that Christians pick and choose all the time. The threads lately have made me do a lot of thinking lately, including on Sunday (the Sabbath) while I was mowing the lawn.
However, quit using food as the example. As kat pointed out, Peter had a vision (Acts 10) which sorted that out.
quote:9About noon the following day as they were on their journey and approaching the city, Peter went up on the roof to pray. 10He became hungry and wanted something to eat, and while the meal was being prepared, he fell into a trance. 11He saw heaven opened and something like a large sheet being let down to earth by its four corners. 12It contained all kinds of four-footed animals, as well as reptiles of the earth and birds of the air. 13Then a voice told him, "Get up, Peter. Kill and eat." 14"Surely not, Lord!" Peter replied. "I have never eaten anything impure or unclean." 15The voice spoke to him a second time, "Do not call anything impure that God has made clean." 16This happened three times, and immediately the sheet was taken back to heaven. 17While Peter was wondering about the meaning of the vision, the men sent by Cornelius found out where Simon's house was and stopped at the gate. 18They called out, asking if Simon who was known as Peter was staying there. 19While Peter was still thinking about the vision, the Spirit said to him, "Simon, three[1] men are looking for you. 20So get up and go downstairs. Do not hesitate to go with them, for I have sent them." 21Peter went down and said to the men, "I'm the one you're looking for. Why have you come?" 22The men replied, "We have come from Cornelius the centurion. He is a righteous and God-fearing man, who is respected by all the Jewish people. A holy angel told him to have you come to his house so that he could hear what you have to say." 23Then Peter invited the men into the house to be his guests.
I know this is picky, but if you're going to point out our hypocrisy, choose another example. There are lots of others to choose from.
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posted
I remember one of my better friends, who is an atheist, told me that he hopes religion would never evolve to tolerate and accept homosexuality. He thought it would be one of the few last walls for religion left, and his hopes were that it, and growing multi-culturalism and birth control and abortion, etc., would all slowly work to make religion impractical and fade it out of culture eventually. Personally, I myself don't believe in religion but I see some of the societal good it provides. I guess the churches that can wrangel their theology and re-interpret will survive the times and adapt.
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quote:growing multi-culturalism and birth control and abortion, etc., would all slowly work to make religion impractical and fade it out of culture eventually.
That won't make religion fade. People have never shunned something just because it was impractical.
If religion embraces homosexuality, THAT will be the end, because it won't be necessary. If there is nothing different to get at church than what you can get on the Bravo channel, then why bother with church.
If, on the other hand, church is the place that is different from all the other voices out there, it is worth spending effort to keep.
In other words, the vast throng may be less interested, but the few who love it will cling much, much more tightly. If religion follows the whims of society, then it is completely irrelevant.
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posted
Might I point out overpopulation is already a serious issue in most of the world? If most people don't use birth control of some kind (abstinance being one kind), there will be mass starvation.
Sorry, make that more mass starvation.
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I heard that the overall birthrate of the world is no longer high enough to sustain the population. While population is still on the rise, this is due to a momentum type effect, and is set to fall fast sometime in the not too distant future. This may be good in some people's eyes--but with birthrates likely to go even lower, it doesn't look good.
posted
That link misses a few key places. Notably most of Africa and most of Asia. The places with the most people on the planet, and the highest population growth rates on the planet.
In developed nations, yes, population growth slows. This is due to the aforementioned birth control (including abstinence, but mostly other stuff).
However, birth control takes hold best in educated, first world nations. And this planet does not have enough resources to turn all of asia and africa into first world nations as they are currently understood. link link link
Basically, the world population is growing far too fast. There is a possibility it will stabilize in time, but that possibility is far from certain, and relies on the extensive use of birth control, which is what is keeping birth rates down in developed countries.
If no one used birth control, and marriage/sex statistics remained about the same . . . *does quick calculations in head based on total world population growing at a rate much closer to the rate in asia*
The world population would reach 10 billion in under 25 years (assuming starvation wasn't any worse than it is today, as a percentage).
The world population would be over 15 billion in 40 years. This would never happen in reality, as population pressure would cause major die-offs and wars; the planet can only sustain so many people.
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quote: So, if He didn't like homosexuality in the old and new testaments, he doesn't like it today--even though he has gone out of the practice of bombing them.
The point that Bob and others have been trying to make is that the broad Christitan religion over its History - from Genesis until now - has been an evolving religion.
What God decrees as worthy of death in one era is suddenly irrelevant in another. (As with the Shellfish and Peter's dream, as with "Eye for an eye", as with "I don't think it's a good idea to have lots of wives anymore".)
The Christian religion has always changed to fit the requirements of the society of the time. When survival of the population was at stake, the most wealthy (in the currency of the times - whether that be land or sheep or coin) had many wives and many many children. When people were not sufficiently civilised to understand any other form of justice, simple revenge was policy. These things, and many others have changed because the requirements laid upon the civilisation were either irrelevant or detrimental.
So simply saying that He didn't like homosexuals then and never will simply doesn't cut it.
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posted
Dietary restrictions were not removed because of Peter's dream. The consensus on that is that it was a specific indication that gentiles could become Christians, which itself was by no means a settled issue. The Nazareans, the Jewish Christians led by Jesus' brother James, were angered by Peter's conversion of the uncircumcised Cornelius and were even more enraged by Paul's mission to the Gentiles were he preached Jesus' message completely divorced from any Jewish laws, among them the dietary restrictions.
In his letter to the Galations, Paul relates an incident that occured after Peter's dream, during a time when both Peter and Paul were in Antioch. Peter came and initially ate in the, in Jewish terms, unclean houses of the Gentile Christians. However, Jewish Christians, probably Nazareans, later arrived in Antioch and castigated Peter for what they saw as breaking Jewish law. Peter then stopped eating with the Gentiles and used his influence to get others to do the same. He was so successful that even Barnabas, Paul's missionary companion, ceased eating in Gentile houses.
The dietary restrictions were canonically lifted due to the Council of Jerusalem, which excluded from canonical Christianity all Mosaic law and obligations other than those from a specific list. In fact, if you believe the interpretations by some of the "salvation only by faith" crowd, Paul later goes on to explain even these specified restrictions as being a nod towards being understanding to the Jews and not as God's law.
quote:“But meat does not commend us to God; neither if we should not eat do we come short; nor if we should eat have we an advantage. … Wherefore if meat be a fall-trap to my brother, I will eat no flesh for ever, that I may not be a fall-trap to my brother.” (I Cor 8: 8, 13)
posted
As far as my understanding goes, Squicky's dead right.
As usual.
(Though I'm not of the "salvation by faith only" crowd and so do not view the remaining restrictions as merely a nod toward the Jews. Which is why I do not, as an example, accept blood transfusions.)
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posted
Really? Yeah, I guess that answers my question, although it brings up another one, Why no sabbath?
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OK, but your 3rd link shows that the US and other developed countrys have been below the 2.1 children per woman since the 70's--at about 1.6 children per woman now. Those are numbers that lead to population decline. As for developing countrys: I don't know. Will it really help to have developed countrys leveling off or even declining while the others explode? Will our capacity to help them be lessened even further when we are outnumbered by them so badly?
I guess I don't know. Thanks for the links.
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posted
Squicky - It seems that, according to the scriptures, the observance of the sabbath was part of the things that were "fulfilled in Christ," or no longer necessary to have a clean relationship with Jehovah.
Colossians 2:16,17 - "Therefore let no man judge YOU in eating and drinking or in respect of a festival or of an observance of the new moon or a sabbath; for those things are a shadow of the things to come, but the reality belongs to the Christ."
That is how we interpret scriptures like this. Another example would be Hebrews 10:1.
Ryuko - Building on Squicky's post, there were a few restrictions that remained requirements according to the first century Christians. The account is in Acts the 15th chapter were things like circumcision were discussed as to their necessity. The outcome was this: "For the holy spirit and we ourselves have favored adding no further burden to YOU, except these necessary things, to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication. If you carefully keep yourselves from these things, you will prosper. Good health to YOU!" (Acts 10:28,29)
We believe that abstaining from blood was among the "necessary things" to observe because blood was always precious to God, such as the very specific instructions given about how blood was handled during sacrifices. We believe this principle represents that Jehovah is the originator and sustainer of all life. Because of this, accepting blood transfusions would not be "abstaining from blood," and offending the original principle.
I hope I explained that clearly.
Fortunately, because of JW's no-blood policy and openminded doctors, there have been TREMENDOUS breakthroughs in bloodless medicine. I've heard one quote from a doctor that said, 'In ten years, everything will be bloodless and we'll view blood transfusions as barbaric.' It's actually much safer surgery, and the recovery time IMPROVES with bloodless alternatives.
However, even if this were not the case, because of the principle I would be willing to die not to offend it. It's as with anything you have a solid foundation in believing - if it makes enough sense to you to intellectually adopt it, accept it as your idealogy and love the deity (whether a god, patriotism, etc...) that is the source, than not being willing to sacrifice your life to maintain your principles is an act of disloyalty. To yourself and your god.
And, of course, blood is only to be drank while sacrificing virgins to Baal. Everybody knows that.
posted
That really impresses me, Ralphie. I could never do something like that, and it really impresses me that you can. (also slightly worried) Don't let anything happen to yourself...
Is there a proscription against depositing your own blood for use just in case?
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posted
Ryuko, Don't sell yourself short. I'm willing to bet that you're not a person who isn't willing to die for your ideas, but rather, you're a person who hasn't found ideas that are worth dying for.
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posted
That's awfully kind to say... (smiles) I don't know so much if it's true quite yet, but it was very kind...
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posted
Squicky is right, Ryuko. Finding the ideals willing to die for is far more difficult than making the ultimate sacrifice to keep them.
And yes, there is that proscription. But you would be shocked at how many WAY cool bloodless tools and procedures they have to prevent the need for blood transfusions. It actually IS healthier. I think that's what some may have trouble getting past - receiving a blood transfusion isn't 100% if you have an emergency that claims a lot of your blood, but there seems to be the misconception that it's the only way to survive. Bloodless surgery isn't 100% either (because nothing in medicine is), but it is by no means a deathwish.
Portland has an excellent Bloodless Surgery wing in one of the hospitals here. I'd actually feel more confident putting my life in their hands, religious beliefs or not, than a lot of other medical options.
Check out bloodless medicine alternatives, if only for a lark. It's becoming a far wider field than just for JW's.
posted
Once more, its times like theese I am glad I'm a polythiest-athiest. On one side we have the folks who think the ole good book is an outdated idea and on the other we have the folks who believe they are following it to the letter of the law. Then there are those damn vultures......circling, and circling.
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posted
I'd always understood that verse as refering to not eating raw meat, similar to the commandment God gave Moses after the flood. Do you believe that interpertation too?
(I really think we need a JW information thread)
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posted
You know, I don't know if I'm ready to take on the responsibility of a JW thread. But I'm more than happy to answer any e-mails.
blackwolve - No, we believe it is the blood specifically that is to be abstained from. Raw meat (such as you find in stores) would not contain enough blood to offend the principle of it containing the properties of life, which is what it comes down to. So, it would be fine. Nasty and icky, but fine.
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posted
Is there any special JW site, the way Mormons have the official LDS site? I was thinking of asking for a basic explaination of Jehovah's Witnesses, which would probably take you more time than you have to spare. I don't know enough to even know where to start asking questions.
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posted
papatr: the US only has a few hundred million people. China has approximately 5 times as many people, and they are giving birth at a very high rate. India has approximately 4 times as many people, and are giving birth at a similarly high rate. Then there's africa, and south/central america, some of the other big population centers of the world.
First world nations don't have much population.
Even if every person in the US, and Europe, and Japan were to die off today, the world population would still explode.
And the reason first world nations don't have much population is pretty simple: reproductive choice has occurred. This is usually through two forces: educated, empowered women being pickier about mates (hence less sex at a young age) and educated men and women using birth control even when they start having sex (including when married).
If people didn't use birth control, this statistic would become what mattered: 85% of women having sex would become pregnant each year. If only two thirds of the women in the united states were having sex, that would be around eighty five million pregnancies every single year. That's eight hundred and fifty million kids born every ten years, more than enough to send the population of the US skyrocketing (even after taking off deaths).
Without birth control, or pretty much everybody just not having sex (including when married), the world is in dire straights.
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posted
rivka. Sorry. I wasn't trying to be deliberately offensive. But I can see it would've come off that way.
quote:Bob, the rules of kashrut (keeping kosher) have little -- if anything -- to do with the safety of the food.
I'd heard that interpretation from a Jewish scholar so I thought it was a pretty common thing. Not that there isn't the over-riding consideration of showing respect for G_d, of course, but that there were good logical reasons for the dietary restrictions as well, if you thought about the lives they lived and the environment, etc.
Oh well.
As for picking and choosing...the Christian Old Testament causes me a lot of problems. It is taken by many sects to be the literal word of God. And then so is the New Testament. The two volumes disagree on many issues, so that's a problem.
But even if I were Jewish and thus had no New Testament to confuse me, I would be picking and choosing.
Again, sorry for saying such abrasive stuff earlier.
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posted
fugu13, But my point is that it wont do any good for the world even if the US does totally depopulate.
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posted
I did not think you were being deliberately offensive, Bob, but thanks for the gracious apology.
Kashrut laws are in the classification of "chukot" -- laws for which we are deliberately given no explanation other than because God says so. (Kind of like the recurring conversation I have with my kids about why they have to clean up their rooms. ) That doesn't stop people with trying to come up with logical explanations of them, of course. The "for safety/health reasons" is one of several I have heard. But even if it's true (and it may well be ), it's very secondary.
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posted
Sorry I've been gone so long, and this is not my ultimiate post my interent has been down and right now I'm at a class and using on of my friends computers. I was just going to say that it looks as if we've strayed from the topic, however the current discussion is very interesting. Just wanted to know if you people wanted to close the book, or continue talking about Rev. Robinson. I do not want to beat a dead horse, so I won't post on it again if that is the general decision. I'll post again soon.
P.S. - Ralphie I really enjoyed the post on the blood transfusion, etc.
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posted
You forget that most of the Mormon population is not in the United States.
Also, I thought LDS members were required to be evangelical. *looks out window at missionaries*
If not, you're doing a darn good imitation of it .
If that is correct, it would not be an option for the US (entirely converted to LDS) to ignore the rest of the world; they'd have to try to convert 'em.
Not only that, but even ignoring the US, as pointed out the rest of the world would explode, and you can bet China (probably India too) will be at war for territory in a few decades, which will likely lead to war with the US.
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posted
Regarding Christianity as an ever evolving community:
quote:For if God is a socially conscious political being whose views invariably correspond to our own prejudices on every essential point of doctrine, he demands of us no more than our politics require. Besides, if God is finite, progressive, and Pure Love, we may as well skip church next Sunday and go to the movies. For if we have nothing to fear from this all-loving, all-forbearing, all-forgiving God, how would our worship of him constitute more than self-congratulation for our own moral standards? As an atheist, I like this God. It is good to see him every morning while I am shaving... (Eugene D. Genovese, "Pilgrim's Progress," The New Republic, 11 May 1992, page 38
I want religion to stay it's ground, to be true to God.
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quote:(Though I'm not of the "salvation by faith only" crowd and so do not view the remaining restrictions as merely a nod toward the Jews. Which is why I do not, as an example, accept blood transfusions.)
Hey, I'm not of the "salvation by faith only" crowd either, but I do believe that, more or less. (Idolatry being an obvious exception.)
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Bald men? I wish I knew what you were referring to. And death by stoning is a punishment for striking one's parent with sufficient force to draw blood or break a bone. And, as with any crime, the guilty party is only punishable by (human) courts if he were warned beforehand, and the offense was witnessed.
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