posted
Even though I'm not sure it's appropriate. Someone suggested that Card might not be visiting these forums anymore, due to some recent problems with a specific member who, in all honesty, is probably getting a real kick out of chasing Card of his own forum.
I don't have a problem with that, life offers people like that few real joys. I suppose they have to make shift with what they can get.
More to the point, is there any substance to this rumor? I mean, Card and his entire family have taken a lot of abuse from this person and his crowd before, and they've always come back for more. So I'm not optimistic about the chances that Card will do anything sensible like ending the whole thing. And I don't see anything like a solid statement one way or the other.
To be honest, I hope that Card has left, and eventually has the good grace to shut this place down, for the sake of all of us that are injured by its very existance. I don't care how "Christ-like" it is to turn the other cheek, it's every bit as Christ-like to cleanse the temple from time to time. I'm not going to compare this site to a temple, that would be silly. But a lot of people come here because they are fans of OSC. They don't deserve to be met by the derision and hatred of everything about the man that is regular fare on this site.
If someone wants a forum that is all about how misguided and wrongheaded everything Card thinks, writes, or does...well, that person can start a forum for that sort of viewpoint easily enough. Why should Card host such a forum himself? It's not for the benefit of anyone that actually likes him or his work, that's for damn sure.
Anyway, if he's on the fence about his continued self abasement before evil, I'll cast a vote in favor of trying something new. But mainly I just want to know what he's decided about the whole thing.
Posts: 763 | Registered: Aug 1999
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posted
OSC chased off his own forum? Shutting down Hatrack? "Hatred of everything about the man that is regular fare on this site"?!?! I for one have no idea what this is about. Although I'm sure that Card gets his fair share of criticism from time to time, I'm pretty sure that the vast majority of the people here are OSC fans, who really enjoy posting here and having the opportunity to interact with him. Either you're blowing things way out of proportion, or I've really had my head in the sand for several months... Posts: 1569 | Registered: Dec 2004
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posted
Survivor's referring to the TomDavidson's thread on OSC's magazine. Tom's a blunt guy, but quite able to take criticism and the occasional verbal slap. I've done it to him myself once or twice.
While I'm sure OSC wasn't thrilled to have a thread on his site questioning what, I can only imagine, is quite an undertaking for OSC, I think OSC's quite capable of making his points, expressing his disappointment, and then moving on. He's not going to get chased off his own site. Nor will TomDavidson bring Hatrack down.
Now, I wouldn't be too surprised if this thread too is locked soon, and for good reason. Let's let this drop and move on with our lives.
Posts: 700 | Registered: Feb 2000
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quote:Even though I'm not sure it's appropriate. Someone suggested that Card might not be visiting these forums anymore, due to some recent problems with a specific member who, in all honesty, is probably getting a real kick out of chasing Card of his own forum.
I don't have a problem with that, life offers people like that few real joys. I suppose they have to make shift with what they can get.
I know Tom well enough to say that you're wrong...but hey, why not a little personal attack when you don't have any information, right?
quote:I mean, Card and his entire family have taken a lot of abuse from this person and his crowd before, and they've always come back for more.
What are you, a conspiracy theorist? There are the occasional scuffles when OSC publishes something particularly inciteful in Rhino, but otherwise, the OSC discussions are limited to praise and worship, mostly on the DAOSC side of the river.
quote:But a lot of people come here because they are fans of OSC. They don't deserve to be met by the derision and hatred of everything about the man that is regular fare on this site.
If you think that's regular fare, then you're not much of a regular.
Anyway, the issue's pretty much over. If you'd actually like to inform yourself of it, there are threads on the other side, and probably people you could email.
Posts: 5264 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
Like I said, this is a discussion about OSC. I've known certain other people...for a long time. And I don't wish to be told anything about those people.
I happen to have a personal interest in seeing these forums either reformed or eliminated. I don't have any interest in seeing them defended. I stated that in terms I felt were fairly clear. I didn't feel like being coy about it, though I suppose I could have been.
Anyway, I'll be checking this thread for a while. I don't feel like reading all the other threads to find an answer. If Card does post again, I'm sure someone will tell me about it.
Posts: 763 | Registered: Aug 1999
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posted
See, but you were being coy about it. Trying to make this about the Secret Liberal Cabal and making up straw men-people who trash everything OSC does every day.
At least be honest and say you don't like the community as it is and give the real reasons.
"personal interest"..."certain other people". What sort of game are you playing?
I doubt OSC's going anywhere, nor Tom, nor Hatrack. Why not be part of the solution rather than part of the problem?
Posts: 5264 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
I don't even understand what the problem is. Maybe I miss a lot but since when do we have "praise police" here? If someone does not agree with everything OSC says and talks about it (I assume this is what is going on) then the forum should be shut down? OSC is a big boy and he has plenty of strong opinions. It's inevitable that people will disagree with him from time to time. I've never seen Tom be crude or totally disrespectful or hateful to OSC so what is this all about? I'll admit that I am not aware of what exactly happened so forgive this post if I am way off base here.
Posts: 870 | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
Ok, I went and found out what was going on. I think I was correct above, if a little off on the "why" of it all. I still think it's very strange. Some people will love what you do and some people will hate it. Why get so worked up? I'm sure Tom came here in the first place because he loves OSC's writing. That's why we are all here. I have seen enough now to know that he (OSC) would drive me nuts if I had to talk to him all the time. We are much to different. I don't agree with most anything he says about politics or religion or sometimes, even toilet paper! So what? I am here still because I respect him and love his stories. I have found a home here (I hope). I love the people, debates and even the occasional rout. I'm confused. Posts: 870 | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Survivor: I happen to have a personal interest in seeing these forums either reformed or eliminated. I don't have any interest in seeing them defended. I stated that in terms I felt were fairly clear. I didn't feel like being coy about it, though I suppose I could have been.
That's the part I don't get. Why, exactly, are you interested in destroying a particularly good forum?
Posts: 2437 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
Because its not a particularly good forum, but it definantly could be better and worth reforming. It has been worth keeping for years, but has had way too many problems for an equal amount of time. That is why I called myself "occasional" as it represented my feelings about the number of times I felt comfortable posting. There are some great discussions that happen, but most of it is heavy-handed hogwash of questionable worth.
I just wish OSC would get more guts and do something about some people. Heck, I would even be happy if he would give me some "Time Out" kicking off. As long as he was an equal opportunity kicker offer. For too long he has allowed too many people to get away with too much for a place that has a potential that is not getting reached. I guess for me he just hasn't lived up to his own standards as set up by the forum rules.
Posts: 2207 | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:I happen to have a personal interest in seeing these forums either reformed or eliminated. I don't have any interest in seeing them defended. I stated that in terms I felt were fairly clear. I didn't feel like being coy about it, though I suppose I could have been.
Unfortunately for you, your interests don't dictate what other people post.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
Olav, I just don't think that on a forum with this many people that it's reasonable to expect that everyone make nice all the time. Most of us are adults here, and we can handle criticism. Sometimes it's a bit harsh. I've said things occasionaly that people have ripped me apart for because they believe something different than me. I'm ok with that because they are people on the internet. It's not my mother or my boyfriend or my best friend. People can say stupid things, they can overreact and they can be brutal. When this has happened to me, I've either explained why I said what I said in a post or I've moved on with my life. I know this case was different because OSC was talking about a new venture but not everyone is going to think it's amazing. I'll admit the first time I saw that site was when I went to the locked thread and read it. I probably would not have looked at it otherwise. Now, it looks like something I would like to pay for. Though I think there were some good suggestions about making it more pleasing to the eye, personally I don't care if it's georgous. I'll go anyway. The point was that others who don't worship OSC the way we do might not. OSC gets plenty of "we're not worthy!" on this forum. I just don't think it would kill him to get some criticism as well, even if the terms used were severe.
Posts: 870 | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
Survivor, if you dislike the other forum so much, why did you start a thread here to extend the carnage to this side of the fence?
Posts: 80 | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
Well, I don't worship Scott, nor do I suggest you worship him. I merely like him. And I've been known criticize him plenty. I don't agree with his politics. I don't always agree with his views on religion. He's offended other friends of mine in writer world with zingers that still sting years later.
I'm not suggesting you prostrate yourself. I'm suggesting you word comments in a way that would be appropriate if you were both in the same room together. Because he is, at the core, a decent guy. Not perfect. And more sensitive than people seem to realize.
Posts: 700 | Registered: Feb 2000
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But Olav, I do worship him. I wasn't being funny. The word "worship" may be a little extreme but that's how I feel about his writing and obvious intelligence. The problem I see is that so many people feel they know him from his writing. If I was in a room with him I probably wouldn't be as polite as I would be to a stranger. With my friends, if something looks bad I sometimes let it be known in a way I might not to someone I just met. Like when AoD showed us her picture...If I hated it I certainly wouldn't tell her that. (I didn't hate it Aod!) I don't know her. I would be polite and say it just wasn't my style. If my boyfriend (and this has happened before) let me listen to a new song he was working on and I thought it stunk the way it was but could be better with some changes I would tell him. I wouldn't be harsh about it (that's why I thought Tom's comment was too brutal) but I certainly wouldn't let him go on thinking everything was fine. You tend to be less polite to someone you know and care about, since you think you can state your opinions to them and they know you love then so they won't be totally offended. I don't know if I explained this well. <sigh>
Posts: 870 | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:I happen to have a personal interest in seeing these forums either reformed or eliminated. I don't have any interest in seeing them defended. I stated that in terms I felt were fairly clear. I didn't feel like being coy about it, though I suppose I could have been.
Maybe this is a silly question, but if you dislike the current iteration of the forums so much, why are you here? As I remember, registration here was voluntary and, unlike Hotel California, you're free to go at any time.
It just seems like that would be simpler than the total overhaul that you propose (for no good reason, by the way).
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
The OSC post linked to has a timestamp of 12:40 am. His last post was post #54 on the Intergalactic Medicine show criticism thread.
quote:Maybe this is a silly question, but if you dislike the current iteration of the forums so much, why are you here?
Let's try rephrasing the question: Maybe this is a silly question, but if you dislike the current owner of the forms so much, why are you here?
I don't know where you, de Spang, fall on OSC's politics, religion, and series of books. But there are many whole complain regularly about most of these things an some few who complain about all.
P.S. You can see someone's posting history by clicking on their member name which brings up their profile (the little information card icon also does this) and "view recent posts" appears in the upper right. Or you can click directly on their post count.
It seemed to me that Card acted the same as most other people on the forum, but because he was the owner, everyone expected him to be better somehow. Or rather, on the BFFAC, I should say.
Oh, and by the way, good to see you around, Survivor.
posted
Wow, I just caught up on this whole mess, in both threads, and I'm just amazed at some people's behavior.
If you don't like a project that someone has poured their heart and soul into (such as the Medicine Show, or this site), then it seems to me that you have two honorable options:
1. Contact the originator in private and express your concerns and suggestions respectfully.
2. Shut your damn mouth.
Trying to publically flay them or sabotage their goals for the horrific sin of failing to fully please you is an act that truly mystifies me. Why would any human being even think of doing that?
I love Hatrack. I feel like I practically grew up here. Like any community, it has had its hard times and its great times, but in the end, it is a rare thing to find a site that, while not perfect, strives the way this one does to achieve a high standard of respectful discourse and community.
What in the hell kind of person sees a project like that and tries to tear it down? If you don't think it is succeeding, then help it succeed. Don't try to ruin it further for the people who still care about it, just because it doesn't meet some arbitrary standard or yours.
My parents go through hell to keep this site running. They deal with untold amounts of criticism and hurt, much of it behind the scenes, where you don't get to see it, dealing with angry and spiteful people trying to tear them or this place down. More than once, they have considered saving a bunch of money and pain, and just cutting this place out of their lives. But they keep it up because they believe we can achieve something great here, and they are just idealistic enough to keep trying, whatever the cost to them emotionally.
Don't spit on the sacrifices they've made. If you don't like it here, you are welcome to never come back again, and I won't miss you a bit. But don't try to destroy a place that I have come to love as a second home. Well, maybe a third or fourth home ... [counts homes in his head] or sixth ... anyway, you get my point. Stop being giant jerks, and start making a positive difference for a change.
(Obviously, I'm only talking to a few people. But they needed to hear it.)
[ October 01, 2005, 05:54 PM: Message edited by: A Rat Named Dog ]
Posts: 1907 | Registered: Feb 2000
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posted
I did leave. But even so, there are people who come here in all innocence and end up getting hurt. I happen to believe that there is a higher than average chance of getting Card to do something about these forums right now. So I came back to check, and to lend my voice in support of such an action.
The truth is, I didn't exactly voluntarily register here in the first place. And for a long time I've ignored the fact that I ever had a username on these forums. But that's not really the point.
Look at the posts thus far. Most of them say that the kind of criticism of Card that we see around here is normal and healthy. But that's manifestly untrue. It isn't normal for most sites and forums to allow this kind of unrestricted hostility towards the community that is the theoretical or nominal purpose of the forum. It is especially not normal for an individual person to continue to tolerate this level of misbehavior and derision directed at himself, on his own site.
And it isn't healthy. For one thing, it leads to constant bitterness and division in the community. Particularly directed against those persons that find Card an insightful and reasonable commentator on our society and humanity in general, both through his fiction and his non-fiction. If you agree with Card about many things, you are in the definite minority here. The majority of this community is clearly held together by their desire to tell each other how wrongheaded Card is, along with all his ideas, beliefs, writings and so forth.
Besides being bad for the community, look at how this environment distorts all your perceptions of what is expected behavior when visiting a site devoted to the fans of an artist's works. You claim not not see how sick you are. I don't know whether to believe that or not, in any case I don't care. It isn't healthy, whatever else it may be.
Anyway, from the evidence of this thread, those on this site who believe that it is actually for people that admire or at least respect Card in any meaningful way (saying "he can take it" when he has said he doesn't like something doesn't count) are in the definite minority. But I already knew that. I know a lot of fans of Card. Very few of them belong to this site despite being outspoken and highly literate individuals. Because whatever its original purpose, this site is simply not a hospitable place to people that actually like Card or his works.
Posts: 763 | Registered: Aug 1999
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Boon
unregistered
posted
I beg to differ. I am a huge fan of Card's works, and I find this community to be a wonderful place for the most part. If you don't like it here, bugger off, but leave the rest of us alone.
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I think that it is only reasonable for people to be a bit more deferential to OSC being as it is his site and it is about him and his works. I'm not saying don't criticize - but it should be done in a polite manner. It is like his living room, and I'll tell ya - if people came into my home, and spoke to me or about me the way they do to OSC, I'd do the Eddie Murphy thing and tell 'em - it's my home, <unprintable>, and if ya don't like it, you can get the <unprintable> out!
So 'e's been a model of restraint.
There are those who feel that when they are right they can use whatever blunt words they want to express their opinion. Maybe at times they're right to do so, but when their target is the owner of the site they should be very circumspect. In private would be best.
If one don't like what he has to say to the point that one has to be offensive, the polite thing to do would be to find another forum to say so. Don't pee in his pool.
From looking at OSC's posts, he might have decided to leave for a while. Take a look at his profile, the last one was regarding the website contention.
If so, this is a tragedy. And a travesty. I'm sure that there are plenty like myself who come here for what OSC has to say. I hope everyone realizes how cool it is that an author actually has his own website with a forum that he actually posts on. There are a few others - he's not the only one - but Hatrack allows the rare chance for a fan to get a better view into the mind of an author, and that allows for a better connection when you read his books. I've never met OSC. I don't think I've ever even had an exchange with him on this forum. The closest I come to actually knowing him is that both of my parents somewhat knew him from being in the drama department at BYU at the same time. Nevertheless, I feel like I know him better because of his posts on this forum. That's just super cool.
So OSC doesn't feel like he's all that...but a lot of us do. This forum would become much emptier with him gone. There are those, myself included, whose main reason to come is to have some sort of interaction with OSC - even as a lurker. I certainly don't come because of (certain person(s) who shall remain unmentioned).
I am in the apparent minority of those who agree with OSC most of the time, but even when I don't, I can't think of any of his posts that didn't make me think and re-evaluate my thoughts.
So, an open plea to OSC - don't go. Please keep posting, and ignore the jerks.
Posts: 561 | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote: I'm sure that there are plenty like myself who come here for what OSC has to say.
I don't mean to take away from anything that's been said here -- much of which I agree with -- but I should point out that for the vast majority of this particular site's lifespan, OSC posted so rarely that it was a forum-wide event when he did. It's only in the last few months -- since at least the last seven years -- that people could count on hearing from him more than once every five or six months, if even that often.
If people came here only for what OSC had to say, they generally never made it as far as the forums -- because, by and large, most of what he had to say wound up in articles and announcements on the front page, not on these pages. I notice that you registered in February of this year, and so you were never here back when he wasn't. That's a good thing, of course -- because had you come by a few months earlier, back when no one ever expected him to swing through the forums (and indeed celebrated on the rare occasions when he did), the forums would have seemed very empty to you. But a lot of us were there anyway; in fact, I'd say the overwhelming majority of the posters on these forums remember those times. I can't speak to the lurker population, obviously.
That said, we were overjoyed when he started posting here more often; I agree that the forums are a much more interesting place with him there, and would hate to see him write them off. I think it's very valuable for him to know that people like having him around.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
I've lurked here off and on for many years, but you are correct that I didn't take the time to register until OSC started posting more. So I'm a case in point for what you are saying. Without the input of the subject, I never saw any point in registering and posting. Still don't see much.
Until OSC started posting here, Hatrack was just another forum, not much different than any other. Could have hosted it anywhere, by anyone, and I doubt it would have been much different. But add OSC to it, and then it becomes special. Posts: 561 | Registered: Feb 2005
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"Hello, lurkers! How are you, whomever you are, doing today, whenever today happens to be? I don't really expect a reply since I know you're lurkers, but I just wanted to let you know that we know you're out there and really, really care about you. Okay? Bye!"
-------
"Until OSC started posting here, Hatrack was just another forum, not much different than any other. Could have hosted it anywhere, by anyone, and I doubt it would have been much different. But add OSC to it, and then it becomes special."
This may be part of the disconnect. To many of the long-time regulars here, the forum was already special. And I think part of the reason a lot of the OSC-fanboy newbies haven't been welcomed with open arms by some people is their implicit -- or, in your case, directly stated -- belief that the only person worth interacting with here is the host himself.
Don't get me wrong; OSC is a great guy, and it's wonderful to get the chance to hear him describe his writing process, his frame of mind -- or, especially (IMO), his silly sense of humor when he's been up late and feels like riffing on something. But precisely because this place didn't have a lot of that a few years ago, we've learned to also enjoy conversation with each other, and I think people sense when some new visitor has no interest in talking or listening to anyone else but OSC. It's great to see a famous and talented author being human here. But there are other humans being human here all the time.
Yeah, when it's all said and done, it's just another forum. But some people really like it, and I think you do them a disservice by suggesting that they may as well shut up or go away. I don't think OSC agrees, either; if he did, this place would just be a blog.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: It'd make for an odd post, wouldn't it:
"Hello, lurkers! How are you, whomever you are, doing today, whenever today happens to be? I don't really expect a reply since I know you're lurkers, but I just wanted to let you know that we know you're out there and really, really care about you. Okay? Bye!"
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"Until OSC started posting here, Hatrack was just another forum, not much different than any other. Could have hosted it anywhere, by anyone, and I doubt it would have been much different. But add OSC to it, and then it becomes special."
This may be part of the disconnect. To many of the long-time regulars here, the forum was already special. And I think part of the reason a lot of the OSC-fanboy newbies haven't been welcomed with open arms by some people is their implicit -- or, in your case, directly stated -- belief that the only person worth interacting with here is the host himself.
I didn't say that OSC is the only one worth interacting with here - I said that interacting with him is the main reason for some people, myself included to come. There are plenty of forums with plenty of people who are worth interacting with, not just Hatrack. I don't post on them either. Not because I disdain them, but because I don't want to get sucked in.
Don't put words in my mouth, Tom. I'm quite capable of doing it myself. And while you may choose to dismiss me as a "OSC-fanboy newbie", there is nothing wrong with agreeing with OSC more often than not, nor with expressing one's appreciation for him, nor even with admitting that one's main reason for coming to OSC's site is OSC.
Furthermore, I'm not really sure where this statement about not being welcomed with open arms came from. In my case, the vast majority of people here have been quite welcoming to me when I choose to post. Whether they agree with me when I post is another thing, but I wouldn't say that I feel unwelcome, nor that I should have any reason to do so.
In my experience, people here have been quite welcoming to so-called "OSC-fanboy newbies."
quote: Don't get me wrong; OSC is a great guy, and it's wonderful to get the chance to hear him describe his writing process, his frame of mind -- or, especially (IMO), his silly sense of humor when he's been up late and feels like riffing on something. But precisely because this place didn't have a lot of that a few years ago, we've learned to also enjoy conversation with each other, and I think people sense when some new visitor has no interest in talking or listening to anyone else but OSC. It's great to see a famous and talented author being human here. But there are other humans being human here all the time.
Again, don't put words in my mouth. I've never actually talked to OSC, but rather to other people on the forum. Not have I said that that the people here are human or not, nor have I said that there is anything wrong with people here enjoying conversation with each other. Nor is there anything wrong with the fact that I rarely enter these conversations. (I wouldn't be much of a lurker, otherwise, would I.) Furthermore, my choice not to enter these conversations does not indicate disapproval or a negative view of people who choose to do so. Again, you are putting words in my mouth.
quote: Yeah, when it's all said and done, it's just another forum. But some people really like it, and I think you do them a disservice by suggesting that they may as well shut up or go away. I don't think OSC agrees, either; if he did, this place would just be a blog.
Lastly, I never suggested that anyone may as well shut up or go away. I stated:
quote:when their target is the owner of the site they should be very circumspect. In private would be best.
I also stated:
quote:If one don't like what he has to say to the point that one has to be offensive, the polite thing to do would be to find another forum to say so.
I even began with:
quote:I'm not saying don't criticize - but it should be done in a polite manner.
Nowhere did I say that anyone should shut up or go away. I explained what I felt were reasonable ways to handle disagreements and criticisms of our host, but nowhere did I assert people who chose not to should leave. I find it difficult to believe that with your admirable command of the English language that you are not deliberately misunderstanding me. But in case you are, let me summarize:
This forum is good.
Most of the people here are good.
The fact that I don't post much here is not a reflection on the people here.
OSC is the main draw for me to come to this forum.
posted
So if this is OSC's living room, and he has said he is banning himself from his own living room, does the party just go on? Survivor is merely saying maybe the living room should stop being called Card's living room at that point.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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quote:Because whatever its original purpose, this site is simply not a hospitable place to people that actually like Card or his works.
I think that the vast majority of people here like at least some of OSC's work and at the very least, appreciate his commitment to family, community and his faith.
I've been here a while now, and can only conclude that it is those people who are positively touched by his words who come to this site and invest themselves in it. I believe that it is his vision and stories that has created a focal point for very idealistic, high quality people who have joined together to become this community.
Though Tom's thoughts and words have been a huge benefit to me and I agree with most of Tom's political views, this is not his forum. New people don't come here drawn by Tom's ideas and words; they come because they're looking for OSC or a friend has directed them to this wonderful community created by OSC.
It is fortunate and a terrific thing that no one person represents the community. But because we constantly get new members influenced by OSC's work, we get a new perspective from those same wonderful books that touched us to our cores, so in effect, OSC's thoughts are constantly new here. OSC doesn't have to show-up on a regular basis to make a regular impact.
Posts: 2425 | Registered: Jan 2002
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quote:Though Tom's thoughts and words have been a huge benefit to me and I agree with most of Tom's political views, this is not his forum. New people don't come here drawn by Tom's ideas and words; they come because they're looking for OSC or a friend has directed them to this wonderful community created by OSC.
And this is exactly as it should be. If I wanted people to be drawn to my ideas and words, I'd spend more time having ideas and saying stuff. This place is OSC's, and I want to reiterate that I have never implied otherwise. There is no "competition" between us as far as I'm concerned, and it's downright ridiculous to imagine how there could be any; our lives move in very different orbits. Until I manage to pick up my second Hugo and get my own fan club, or until he picks up a CCNA and starts doing freelance network administration, the idea that we could even be at loggerheads baffles me. You may as well say that Ally Sheedy and I are arch-enemies.
I mean, the guy runs the site. His name is on the masthead. He pays for the bandwidth, and writes the books that make the fans who seek this place out. I'm a network admin in Wisconsin who's not even in the first page of hits on my own name in Google (although admittedly people with my name have started software companies and starred in movies, so I've got a fair bit of competition on that score anyway.) I like to think I contribute to the site, but there's a huge difference between that and implying, in effect, that a Quality Assurance tester at Microsoft who helped debug the last version of Office is a rival to Bill Gates.
I've got my own accomplishments, and -- despite all the self-disparaging -- I'm pretty happy with them. I don't need to take credit for someone else's, and I especially don't need people to think that I think I need to. *laugh*
posted
We're all so very civil now, aren't we? Such models of self restraint and deference to each other.
It's so easy to sit here and titter over our host's overreaction to such a minor thing, isn't it? And aren't we so clever for knowing who is worthy of our company? After all, the important thing is our good opinions about each other.
Perhaps. I wouldn't know anything about that. All I know is that this sort of "civility" turns my stomach. The truth is that it isn't really the disagreements with Card that I dislike. On the forums I frequent, I certainly am quite free with my criticisms of his writing. Sure, I'm also free with my praise, but none of it was flattery.
I dislike the way you people work. The way you like to paint your behavior as oh so normal and ever so correct. Anyone that suggests otherwise is to be instantly dismissed. And those that can't keep up with the hypocrisy, well, fie on them.
You can pretend that I've misjudged you and your works, but I know what I'm talking about here. I know exactly why I left and why I've come back.
This place attracts a large number of intelligent, literate, sensitive, and otherwise wonderful people. But most of them don't stay. And I know why. I imagine that those of you that caused them to leave, often one by one, sometimes a dozen at a time, I can hardly imagine you're utterly ignorant of why they feel unwelcome on this forum. And yet, experience tells me that at least some of you just don't realize it at all.
Perhaps you're just too subtle for yourselves.
Posts: 763 | Registered: Aug 1999
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posted
*laugh* Chiu, if anybody's being coy -- or hypocritical -- on this thread, it's you. You and I both know your history, and I think it's safe to say that I know exactly what you're saying and, moreover, why you're saying it. But what you really want to have is a conversation that I don't think can be productively had in public. At the end of the day, you don't intend for this thread to be "a discussion about OSC" at all, and you and I both know it. I hoped that you'd get the hint, since I've quite obviously avoided taking your bait, but it looks like you're going to post over and over again -- getting closer and closer to saying what you really want to say -- until somebody fills in the blanks for you. So go ahead and fill in the blanks now, man. Save some bandwidth. But don't expect me to engage you on the topic here.
That said, you are -- as always -- welcome to drop me an email. I've made this offer before, and you've failed to take me up on it; I suspect, quite frankly, that you like to grandstand and insinuate and whine more than you like to engage people in actual discussion. But I would not be heartbroken if you proved me wrong.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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Maybe I'm just too new to understand what the heck that was all about? *points to Survivor's latest post*
Posts: 870 | Registered: Mar 2005
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btw "This place attracts a large number of intelligent, literate, sensitive, and otherwise wonderful people. But most of them don't stay. And I know why. I imagine that those of you that caused them to leave, often one by one, sometimes a dozen at a time, I can hardly imagine you're utterly ignorant of why they feel unwelcome on this forum. "
I don't feel unwelcome. Does that mean I'm stupid, illiterate, insensitive and an otherwise horrible person? j/k
Posts: 870 | Registered: Mar 2005
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Well, in Richard's defense, it's entirely possible that all but less than a single percent of the intelligent, literate, sensitive and otherwise wonderful people who come to this site not only don't stay but never even post. I have no idea how many lurkers are out there -- Hey, Steev! -- or how many of them are intelligent, literate, sensitive and otherwise wonderful. While we could probably estimate the percentage of people currently posting to Hatrack who are intelligent, literate, sensitive and otherwise wonderful, I don't know how we'd gather hard data on the number of intelligent, literate, sensitive and otherwise wonderful visitors who do not currently post and/or have never posted.
Maybe we need a guestbook. We could include the questions "are you intelligent, literate, sensitive and otherwise wonderful?" and "if you choose not to post in the forum, is it because you don't like TomDavidson?" Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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quote:We're all so very civil now, aren't we? Such models of self restraint and deference to each other.
It's so easy to sit here and titter over our host's overreaction to such a minor thing, isn't it? And aren't we so clever for knowing who is worthy of our company? After all, the important thing is our good opinions about each other.
Survivor, I would argue that that this is how a community is supposed to work. The worst thing you can do, IMO, is quit.
Personally, I don't think that OSC overreacted to what was said, but I also don't think that Tom would have said what he did if he had known that the ezine was so important to OSC, or that the money and time spent was significant.
I can tell by your number that you've been around forever, but by the number of times you contributed and your willingness to say "I hope that Card has left, and eventually has the good grace to shut this place down, for the sake of all of us that are injured by its very existance." shows that you've invested very little here.
I am civil to Tom because I respect him. I don't like or agree with how he said what he said, but that doesn't wash away the years of positive insights I've gleened from him.
There are many things that OSC has said that I dislike, but I will continue to read those ideas and assume that they have merit simply because OSC has said them.
Does this make me shallow, a kiss-up or does this "civility" turn your stomach? The problem is that your opinion of me doesn't matter to me because you've contributed nothing to my life. If you'd given more to the forum, I'm sure that I'd be able to value your point of view, even though I don't share it.
Posts: 2425 | Registered: Jan 2002
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I think that in general, Tom is a good person to have around on Hatrack, and I'm glad this incident hasn't scared him away. I don't share OSC's evaluation of his character. In fact, I rather like him.
At the same time, though, I think that the thread that Tom started (that started this whole mess) was a really crappy thing to do. No amount of "he didn't understand how much went into it" can explain away his behavior. That was just a terrible way to treat someone else's heartfelt effort in a public place where they will be affected by it in front of people whose opinions they value, and I found it shocking and embarrassing that Tom, whom I normally respect, could do something so bizarrely awful.
However, I do think it is possible for a decent person to thoughtlessly do an awful thing, though I would expect that somewhere, behind the scenes, a sincere apology would be in order. (I'm in no position to know whether or not one took place, and Tom is under no obligation to ME to say either way, I'm just mentioning it.) I know that Tom has handled a past situation like this quite well before, so I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt and assuming he's been a gentleman about the whole thing.
But seriously, holy crap, what were you THINKING, dude?
EDIT: Actually, never mind, you've already been officially Raked-Over-The-Coals; you don't need it from me, too. I mostly just wanted to make it clear that while I don't agree with everything OSC said in response to that thread, his emotional reaction was not an "overreaction". I'd say it was pretty much exactly the emotional reaction you should expect; much the way you should expect someone to double over when you stab them in the gut.
posted
Goodness, aren't there enough problems in the real world outside the net?
This is all so fake-- it's the internet. Why become so incredibly frustrated and/or confused at people who don't even exist in real life? IT'S JUST A FORUM for goodness sake.
It's simply not worth it to be so intense or even mad at such a thing as typing away aggressive statements to someone who isn't even a part of your REAL life- put your efforts into caring about people and situations that don't exist on a screen.
I post here for fun, that's it. I don't need something non-existent to my real life stressing me out. Speaking of fun, my friends and I are about to go play a game of twister with a strobe light on- now that's some good times!
Posts: 44 | Registered: Jan 2005
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Salah, while I understand the point you're getting at, the fact that there ARE real people behind each of these screen names means that real feelings can be hurt. Not everyone is able to just write people off because they've never met face-to-face.
Posts: 1907 | Registered: Feb 2000
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The internet IS some people's lives. Sad as that is.
What if you'd been talking to someone you'd never met on the phone for a while, discussing your grandmothers' recipes, and one day they started telling you your dog was ugly? Wouldn't that hurt your feelings?
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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For what it's worth, Geoff -- and I haven't said this before because indeed it would have diluted my earlier apologies, and I tried very, very hard not to do that in the other threads your dad was reading -- I had no idea that the design of that site was a product of his "heartfelt effort." I know the idea of the site was, and I'm sure the content and long-term survival of the site is something he cares about a great deal, but the appearance of the site was something that I'd assumed he'd contracted out to a third party, which is IMX usually what's done in these cases. It's precisely because I assumed his focus was on the content and long-term survival of the site that I erroneously assumed that gathering some unvarnished opinions on what I felt was the unprofessional appearance of the site might be helpful to him.
I may be making a distinction between appearance and content that, while common in the web design circles in which I work, might not be one with which OSC is accustomed.
Anyway, while I haven't said this to him -- mainly because I don't think it actually makes what I said any better, although it perhaps makes it more easily explicable -- I hadn't figured that he'd had much of a role, if any, in how the site itself looked or was coded on the back end.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: Well, in Richard's defense, it's entirely possible that all but less than a single percent of the intelligent, literate, sensitive and otherwise wonderful people who come to this site not only don't stay but never even post. I have no idea how many lurkers are out there -- Hey, Steev! -- or how many of them are intelligent, literate, sensitive and otherwise wonderful. While we could probably estimate the percentage of people currently posting to Hatrack who are intelligent, literate, sensitive and otherwise wonderful, I don't know how we'd gather hard data on the number of intelligent, literate, sensitive and otherwise wonderful visitors who do not currently post and/or have never posted.
Maybe we need a guestbook. We could include the questions "are you intelligent, literate, sensitive and otherwise wonderful?" and "if you choose not to post in the forum, is it because you don't like TomDavidson?"
Hi Tom,
Lurking, in my world has little to do with the kinds of people on the forums. It's mostly to do with how and where I choose to spend my time. I don't speak for any other lurker on this.
As for actually posting I find that in my own mind I'm intelligent, literate, sensitive and otherwise wonderful but later I find that I've offended more than half the forum population because the so called intelligent, literate, sensitive and otherwise wonderfulness that I think I'm projecting from my self-centric thinking is interpreted as cynical, sarcastic and down right abrasive. I not as cynical as Survivor but I am at least as sarcastic and abrasive. In short, I tend to be a troll when I'm not careful.
Which brings me to yet another reason why I lurk. I'm practicing self-restraint from posting every little thing that crosses my mind. I don't want to be a troll so I try and keep my "dammed mouth shut".
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