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So we should put on the dust jacket of every book at the protagonist is dying... after all, we're all dying.
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its about pahe 160now...and Im laughing and enjoying Enders confrontation with the Captain and Valentines 3hr ansible letters from Peter. Ender is so clever funny. I wish the book were more in Enders head though. Rather than third party viewing
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Just wait til they get to Colony I. Enders response to the captains obvious plans of taking the lead is priceless.
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Was the stasis method of traveling in any of the other books? I don't remember it ever being an option before. Was this just a method to allow Graff to not die off too quickly? This also introduces the question of why didn't Bean and his babies just go into stasis until a cure could be found.
I did pick up on the fact that Graff's going in to stasis 10 months out of 12 was just like what the emperors did in Card's Worthing Saga. I thought it was funny when Graff woke up to find himself sacked.
I liked that we got to see the change in Valentine throughout the book. While she was annoying at times, she was definitely growing and finding her own kind of freedom.
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I think the reason Bean went into space was that zero gravity was better on his heart than stasis would be. The fact of he could live decades longer while supposedly Volescu found a cure. Who knows maybe to help time pass more he was on stasis on the ship. He could survive centuries that way.
I don't think of it as an error more as an omission of the full facts. At least bringing in the idea of stasis OCS did not contradict himself anywhere else in the stories. More like left a tidbit of newness for later.
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That whole stasis thing kind of threw me off a little bit. It didn't directly contradict anything in any of the other books, but I think that it was pretty well implied that they never had anything like that. For instance Mazer's flight when he was just waiting for the fleet to arrive at the formic worlds. He talked about how horrible and boring the flight was. I don't see any reason why he wouldn't have been in stasis, and then it wouldn't have been boring at all, just a nap.
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Is it bad that I didn't really like this book...? I found it frustrating. I love the Ender series, but I am afraid to go into why I don't like the Bean series as much for fear that people will throw tomatoes at me. Cyber ones. Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote:Originally posted by NeroWolf666: I think the reason Bean went into space was that zero gravity was better on his heart than stasis would be. The fact of he could live decades longer while supposedly Volescu found a cure. Who knows maybe to help time pass more he was on stasis on the ship. He could survive centuries that way.
I don't think of it as an error more as an omission of the full facts. At least bringing in the idea of stasis OCS did not contradict himself anywhere else in the stories. More like left a tidbit of newness for later.
In stasis there would be no strain on Bean's heart. Personally I wish the stasis thing wouldn't have been introduced, since it does create some contradictions. It would have been better if Graff took a short interstellar trip to extend his life out.
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OSC is kind of like Patricia Cornwell and her obsession with all her characters being in awesome physical shape, and their being rich and having the ability to speak French and Italian. Or John Grisham's obsession with his characters liking to get up early in the morning. Or lets see... Hemingway's penchant for depressed and stoic male chauvinists. I'd like to see a character who was less than brilliant treated in any kind of a forgiving way in one of OSC's books...
That's less true in his stories outside Enderverse. Most of his character are pretty bright, but the average intelligence is everything not Enderverse is obviously a lot lower. [/QB]
Nafai can be a dunce sometimes. Ivan is a scholar, but nothing extraordinary.
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Stasis would not completely shut down the body. In Beans case where his body grows even when its not supposed to I still think just the relativistic flight would still have been the better choice of the 2. Especially given the fact that he went with 3 of his children. It would have been best for him to be with his children as long as possible.
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quote:Originally posted by NeroWolf666: I think the reason Bean went into space was that zero gravity was better on his heart than stasis would be. The fact of he could live decades longer while supposedly Volescu found a cure. Who knows maybe to help time pass more he was on stasis on the ship. He could survive centuries that way.
I don't think of it as an error more as an omission of the full facts. At least bringing in the idea of stasis OCS did not contradict himself anywhere else in the stories. More like left a tidbit of newness for later.
In stasis there would be no strain on Bean's heart. Personally I wish the stasis thing wouldn't have been introduced, since it does create some contradictions. It would have been better if Graff took a short interstellar trip to extend his life out.
Maybe being brought out of stasis could put a strain on one's heart? Unless it says otherwise in the book. I only recently started it.
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I love reading everything sci-fi related I was just pulling from my reading experience. Especially since stasis does not exist yet.
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quote:Originally posted by rivka: CRash, that was awesome. (Correction, though. Ender clearly has no idea that Bean and the three genetically challenged babies are on a spaceship somewhere. He bought the party line that they are all long dead.)
Thanks for clearing that up for me; I was a bit confused on how Ender would know about the three extra babies and yet not know what happened to them! I guess if he thinks they're dead that would make sense.
quote:Originally posted by Steve_G: I did pick up on the fact that Graff's going in to stasis 10 months out of 12 was just like what the emperors did in Card's Worthing Saga. I thought it was funny when Graff woke up to find himself sacked.
That was immediately my thought when I heard of "stasis" - it's just somec under a different name. I agree that it causes more problems than it solves to introduce it into the Ender universe, although it does provide fodder for the crazy theory that the Worthing Saga universe is merely the Ender universe a few millenia after CotM.
Aside from that, I think it's too much to have both starflight and stasis coexisting. (It reminded me of something OSC wrote once, I think it was about how two magical systems in the same fantasy book just confuses readers.) Why even worry about those family members going to another planet for a 30-year trip? Just go on stasis for 60 years or so and meet them when they get back.
And if one went on stasis WHILE in starflight, that's instant immortality. Speaking of which, why in the world does OSC have Ender say that he's going to go under stasis on every flight when as far as I can see he doesn't need to do so? Sure it works in EinE because it explains the Valentine/Ender age discrepancy, but if that continued then Val would keep aging (as SftD stands right now she has to be 41 when she reaches Trondheim and marries Jakt). Personally I think stasis should be outlawed or something in the Ender universe post-EinE. It served its plot purpose by prolonging Graff's life and now it is no longer necessary.
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quote:Originally posted by NeroWolf666: Stasis would not completely shut down the body. In Beans case where his body grows even when its not supposed to I still think just the relativistic flight would still have been the better choice of the 2. Especially given the fact that he went with 3 of his children. It would have been best for him to be with his children as long as possible.
I don't know that you can make the point that Bean would keep growing in stasis. Bean's growth differs from normal growth in that it is constant. I don't see how it breaks any other rules. Stasis stops all growth as was brought up at one point in the novel, but I don't remember where.
I can accept that waking up from stasis could be a strain on the heart though.
Speaking of which the strain on the heart thing never really made sense to me either. Stick an artificial ticker in there, and replace it every now and then (too bad they didn't think of that for Peter as well). The bigger problem would be the brain smashing against the skull.
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Stasis (coming from everything I have read) does not fully shutdown the body. It basically slows down the body making it a fraction of an inch away from death. It is my opinion (therefor I could be way wrong) that with Beans condition of growth it would not significantly slow down his process of growing. Also as pointed out the stress on the body being revived would probably be very bad for beans overall health.
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did that scene with Achilles jr. beating up on ender remind anyone about that time in "A War Of Gifts" when Zeck hit Ender cause Ender provoked him, then zeck learned that his father was a bad dude, even though if he followed the clues he really knew that all along he was being lied to. I just re-read "AWOG" and this was the first thing that came to mind when I got to that scene. rant ended. Posts: 856 | Registered: Jun 2007
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Here's a continuity error that no one has mentioned yet, probably because it's earlier in the story.
In Ender's Game, Peter initially guides Valentine in telling her what to write, but she eventually breaks free and writes for herself. At one point, Peter gives her the silent treatment and a point is made in saying if there was any difference in the quality, no one noticed. From then on, it's implied Valentine carried out her own agenda independently, although she still worked together with Peter.
In Ender In Exile, Valentine is still under Peter's thumb. She's supposed to be this great writer who does the history of Battle School and Shakespeare Colony and Ganges, etc. yet she can't form an opinion as Demonsthenes without Peter's assistance.
I accept continuity changing because the world has evolved far more than originally imagined, but this instance really didn't seem necessary except to create a false conflict.
As a general note, I wonder if he writes everything in sequence or follows various plot threads to conclusion or integrates later. I question because the beginning and end of the book feel a lot different than the middle. There is more speechifying in the beginning and end than in the middle. It almost seems like those parts were written to fit into the original idea of the story while the middle played out as if the writer was discovering the story at the same time as the reader - making the book a journey rather than a travel log (if that makes any sense).
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I was mildly irritated to have the shorts from IGMS included in the text of this book. Why am I paying for the same story twice? Henceforth, I'll just stop buying them at IGMS.
Not that big of a deal, though -- I did enjoy reading the stories without waiting for a whole new novel to arrive, and now that I know they'll be reused I'm prepared for it.
Also, was it just me, or was there major retconning in this book re: Ender's feelings about Bean? Suddenly Ender knew all along that Bean was the better tactician, could've defeated the buggers in his place, etc? That's not the way I remember EG.
And I agree with Michiel that Ender, as a character, was a bit flat in this book. I mean, it can't be easy to write a character knowing he has to end up a certain way to match the adult version you've already explored. But he just wasn't as captivating as EG-Ender or SftD/Xeno/CotM-Ender. IMHO.
I was also a little surprised at how easily Achilles II was bested. That was supposed to be the bulk of the storyline here, and it could've easily been cut and not hurt the overall arc at all.
And somec? That's a bit Asimov-ian for my tastes.
Anywho, it's always great for more Enderverse material, and it's inevitable that it's not all going to be the BEST READ EVAR! And I did enjoy it.
[ November 28, 2008, 10:39 PM: Message edited by: El JT de Spang ]
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You've never paid for the same story twice before? Many, I have about half of Card's books in print AND audio - and some in a couple of versions of print.
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If the only (or main) reason one subscribes to IGMS is the Ender stories, then the reaction makes perfect sense. Since I think many of the other stories are a better reason . . .
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quote:Originally posted by El JT de Spang: Also, was it just me, or was there major retconning in this book re: Ender's feelings about Bean? Suddenly Ender knew all along that Bean was the better tactician, could've defeated the buggers in his place, etc? That's not the way I remember EG.
Definitely not just you. It's quite a bit of a leap to read EG and then Exile, like I did, and go from Ender hardly noticing Bean's existence to being all best buddies ever and admiring all his abilities. It's certainly done to connect the Shadow series with Ender but I felt it was laid on a bit thick. I didn't see anything wrong with Ender's attitudes toward Bean in EG and didn't see the need for them to be so severely "corrected" in this linker book.
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Yeah... Even when Ender finally writes home to his parents he can't mention his victory over the buggers without pointing out that Bean was the better tactician and he only won because of his help. I was a bit taken aback by how out of place that seemed. Similarly, in an earlier letter to Graff he makes a point of mentioning that Bean could have won the war.
Okay! Bean's smarter than Ender! We get it! Posts: 1569 | Registered: Dec 2004
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This is not that uncommon a concept, and it hardly qualifies as 'magic' since virtually every other science fiction writer has used it, and even real scientist are searching for a way.
Some one said that if Stasis was true, and you put yourself in permanent stasis, it would be immortality. Really? Or would it be the equivalent of death?
What good is it, if you never wake up, and what good is it if you wake up so far in the future that you simply can't function in the world any more. Star Trek did an episode on this, one guy woke up an wanted to know how the stock market was doing. he expected to be a millionaire. They told him that the stock didn't exist any more. So, instead of rich, his investments were either lost, or turned over to his relatives centuries ago.
If someone you love goes into space for the earth equivalent of 50 years, you could just go into stasis on earth. But, that's 50 years you don't get to live. Meanwhile, the space traveler has moved a few years into the future without you. Certainly it could be done, but it just doesn't seem a good way to live a life. When your lives run separately, then you tend to separate. I just don't think it would work except in a few cases.
Also, keep in mind, this only works if you know you are coming back. When have we seen a character other than Mazer Rackham who make a round trip. He chose not to go into stasis.
One one hand, you could stay time synchronized with a space traveler, but you could not stay synchronized with progress on earth. Think about the changes on earth between 1900 and 1950, the consider the changes between 1950 and 2000. If you went to bed and there was not TV, and woke up to the internet, and 250 channels of digital TV. That's pretty serious cultural shock. Let the time span become too great and the cultural shock also become too great. You can simply never again get in sync with society.
I think Val and Ender were able to do it, because they never really took part in society. The never accumulated possessions. What do they care if the iPod has been invented, they don't plan to buy one. At best, then might be tempted to keep their desktops (personal computers) up to date, but beyond that, gadgets and general possession were not the big with them.
A stop for a few months here and there, plus their access to information would do a fair job of keeping them up-to-date on social changes.
I'm wonder though, if Stasis wasn't introduced to sync Ender and Val's ages, make them a little close to what they appear to be in later books. Or to create an in-world circumstance that allows for discontinuity in their ages to be explained.
I think Val and Ender were able to do it, because they never really took part in society. The never accumulated possessions. What do they care if the iPod has been invented, they don't plan to buy one. At best, then might be tempted to keep their desktops (personal computers) up to date, but beyond that, gadgets and general possession were not the big with them.
If you recall, in SftD Ender was completly useless with modern computers since he just let Jane do everything rather than bothering to keep up with it himself. I'm always amused by the part where he's working with Olhado and doesn't know how to do anything.
But on the whole, it doesn't seem like technology has changed a whole lot in the Enderverse in a 3000 year period. I guess because it didn't need to, and also because I suppose things might naturally change a bit more slowly in a civilization that has to accommodate people skipping across time.
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OSC has been personally responsible for 95% of all the procrastination I've been doing over the past three days... between the new book and Hatrack.
Thanks.
Having said that... I'm not finished it yet, but I think Ender in Exile is beautiful...
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My thoughts on Ender in Exile: First I'd like to say that I enjoyed this book, and that anything new in Enderverse is a good thing.
Well, like a lot of people I was expecting Ender's time on Ganges to be the bulk of the plot, but it turned out that it wasn't. Didn't actually bother me much though, because the time between chapter 14 and 15 in Ender's Game definitely needed expansion.
I also wasn't bothered by the short stories being included (I hadn't read the IGMS stories), but frankly in many parts it felt like the plot was just a bunch of short stories stuck together. I personally think that this novel would have been better as a short story collection.
My biggest gripe is the inconsistencies. I have no problems with deciding that you would like to rewrite something that you have previously written (as a writer myself I often feel compelled to do this), and you address this after the book; however, you don't address the glaring differences in relationships and individual events that frankly have no effect on timeline or plot (ie Peter or Valentine, who kept Ender from coming home?, Ender's relationship with Bean, sudden love?, the writing of the Hegemon, did Ender see Peter or not? etc...).
And finally, while I don't mind stasis being included in this book, why was it never mentioned in either the Ender or the Shadow series?
PS I can't wait for Shadows in Flight
quote:Originally posted by El JT de Spang: Who are you responding to, BlueWizard?
posted
Are you BlueWizard? Because nothing in his post addresses anything that CRash says in her preceding post.
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quote:Originally posted by Abel Magwitch: the writing of the Hegemon, did Ender see Peter or not? etc...).
When was it ever said that he didn't? There are now three accounts of his interviews with Peter; EG, SotG, and EiE, and I believe that all three state that they communicated "face to face" via ansible. The only inconsistency is Peter's age, which was said to be in his 70s in EG and "nearly 60" I think in EiE. I'm not sure why OSC decided to make it so that the trip to Shakespeare only took 40 years rather than 50, but I guess he'll make it match in EG when he rewrites the final chapter.
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Well, in SotD it was said that Peter ruled as Hegemon for "sixty years". It's impossible to square that with the age at which Peter is said to have died in EiE.
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Does it actually say when Peter died in EiE? I still have a couple of chapters to go, but iirc it says how old he was when Ender was interviewing him, and Ender makes the point that the book won't be published until after he dies, and that's all that's said.
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quote:Originally posted by Abel Magwitch: the writing of the Hegemon, did Ender see Peter or not? etc...).
When was it ever said that he didn't? There are now three accounts of his interviews with Peter; EG, SotG, and EiE, and I believe that all three state that they communicated "face to face" via ansible. The only inconsistency is Peter's age, which was said to be in his 70s in EG and "nearly 60" I think in EiE. I'm not sure why OSC decided to make it so that the trip to Shakespeare only took 40 years rather than 50, but I guess he'll make it match in EG when he rewrites the final chapter.
Shadow of the Giant pg. 364 "No picture. Peter had to draw the line somewhere. And Ender hadn't insisted. It would be too painful for both of them-for Ender to see how much time had passed during his relativistic voyage out to Shakespeare, and for Peter to be forced to see how young Ender still was, how much life he still had ahead of him while Peter was looking coolly at his own old age and approaching death."
quote:Originally posted by El JT de Spang: Are you BlueWizard? Because nothing in his post addresses anything that CRash says in her preceding post.
It's simple deduction really. CRash refers to stasis as magic. BlueWizard refutes that stasis is magic. CRash states that people can use stasis to wait for others on voyages. BlueWizard says that the culture shock would be to great. CRash states that stasis while in starflight is immortality. BlueWizard says that it isn't immortality if you aren't awake.
Personally I think that there is a pattern there. Also, CRash has more than one post on the page.
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quote:Originally posted by Abel Magwitch: the writing of the Hegemon, did Ender see Peter or not? etc...).
When was it ever said that he didn't? There are now three accounts of his interviews with Peter; EG, SotG, and EiE, and I believe that all three state that they communicated "face to face" via ansible. The only inconsistency is Peter's age, which was said to be in his 70s in EG and "nearly 60" I think in EiE. I'm not sure why OSC decided to make it so that the trip to Shakespeare only took 40 years rather than 50, but I guess he'll make it match in EG when he rewrites the final chapter.
Shadow of the Giant pg. 364 "No picture. Peter had to draw the line somewhere. And Ender hadn't insisted. It would be too painful for both of them-for Ender to see how much time had passed during his relativistic voyage out to Shakespeare, and for Peter to be forced to see how young Ender still was, how much life he still had ahead of him while Peter was looking coolly at his own old age and approaching death."
Oh yeah... My bad.
Well, I guess that's not a major issue even if it is a bit inconsistent.
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quote:Originally posted by El JT de Spang: Are you BlueWizard? Because nothing in his post addresses anything that CRash says in her preceding post.
It's simple deduction really. CRash refers to stasis as magic. BlueWizard refutes that stasis is magic. CRash states that people can use stasis to wait for others on voyages. BlueWizard says that the culture shock would be to great. CRash states that stasis while in starflight is immortality. BlueWizard says that it isn't immortality if you aren't awake.
So the answer to my question is no, then, right?
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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Indeed it is, JT. Or at least I'm pretty sure that Abel is a separate entity from BlueWizard but you can never really know, eh? Since I'm also fairly certain that BlueWizard was responding to one of my previous posts, now I'm going to make a ridiculously long post responding to that response point by point.
quote:Originally posted by BlueWizard: Stasis, or suspended animation -
This is not that uncommon a concept, and it hardly qualifies as 'magic' since virtually every other science fiction writer has used it, and even real scientist are searching for a way.
Note: I never said that stasis is "magic." I likened it to Card's noting that two "magical systems" in one book is overwhelming and confusing to readers. Stasis in this comparison may be regarded as a "magical system" in this sense: it gives humans a power to prolong the relative lifespan of a person that is utterly beyond what we have today. Since this is a science fiction series, all "magical systems" need to be able to masquerade as science, but otherwise there is no difference between stasis and the ability to magically send Rip Van Winkle to sleep for a hundred years and wake up the same age.
quote:Originally posted by BlueWizard: Some one said that if Stasis was true, and you put yourself in permanent stasis, it would be immortality. Really? Or would it be the equivalent of death?
What good is it, if you never wake up, and what good is it if you wake up so far in the future that you simply can't function in the world any more. Star Trek did an episode on this, one guy woke up an wanted to know how the stock market was doing. he expected to be a millionaire. They told him that the stock didn't exist any more. So, instead of rich, his investments were either lost, or turned over to his relatives centuries ago.
Since I'm relating stasis-as-immortality in this case to starflight-as-immortality, perhaps I simply need to redefine the term or use a different one. What I'm trying to say is that both systems allow a human's relative "lifespan" - the range of years over which that person's body exists in space - to be ridiculously lengthened in comparison to what would be a more normal lifespan. I agree with you that NEITHER is a form of life, because NEITHER allows you to truly "function in the world," as you say.
quote:Originally posted by BlueWizard: If someone you love goes into space for the earth equivalent of 50 years, you could just go into stasis on earth. But, that's 50 years you don't get to live. Meanwhile, the space traveler has moved a few years into the future without you. Certainly it could be done, but it just doesn't seem a good way to live a life. When your lives run separately, then you tend to separate. I just don't think it would work except in a few cases.
Aha - but what if the space traveler ALSO goes on stasis in flight? Then the difference could be far less, only a matter of months. The difference at that point will not necessarily be enough to "separate" either person from the other irrevocably. (For example, I have been at college for three and a half months but I still felt a strong connection with my family when I visited on break.) And as a second point, only ONE of the two would be running a separate life. For the traveler, then, there are a few months of separation in the hypothetical example. But for the person who has been on stasis the ENTIRE time, there is no time for his or her life to grow apart from the traveler's. The one who stays will come out of stasis precisely the way he or she went in, so the only barrier between the two people is the traveler's experiences on the other planet.
quote:Originally posted by BlueWizard: Also, keep in mind, this only works if you know you are coming back. When have we seen a character other than Mazer Rackham who make a round trip. He chose not to go into stasis.
Just possibilities: 1. Perhaps Mazer could not go into stasis because it wasn't a viable option at that point in the Ender universe. There is plenty of time between when Mazer leaves and EinE for stasis to be invented, or refined, or whatever. 2. Mazer had planned to keep going, so he did not know for sure if he was coming back. Perhaps he wanted to remain off stasis because he had the intention of fiddling with the ship's computer, or perhaps merely because he wanted to be conscious as he zoomed outwards toward infinity.
quote:Originally posted by BlueWizard: One one hand, you could stay time synchronized with a space traveler, but you could not stay synchronized with progress on earth. Think about the changes on earth between 1900 and 1950, the consider the changes between 1950 and 2000. If you went to bed and there was not TV, and woke up to the internet, and 250 channels of digital TV. That's pretty serious cultural shock. Let the time span become too great and the cultural shock also become too great. You can simply never again get in sync with society.
I would argue that people survive culture shock. But one may not want to live with the thought that the beloved space traveler will basically be dead to the one remaining on the planet the moment the voyage begins. Stasis is essentially a self-suicide, because the person is removing themselves from the world and whatever progress it makes and will only rejoin it at some later point. So this hypothetical person is making the voluntary choice to do so--and this person may not care one whit for culture shock. They will still do it. Maybe they'll regret it later, but the initial choice likely will not be stopped by the vague threat of cultural progress in one's absence.
There may even be curiosity to see "what's next." And I would add that humans are used to culture shock. People these days move halfway across the world and manage to survive. I've read about immigrants from Africa who didn't even have electricity in their home village and yet manage to assimilate to life in the modern, technology-driven USA. I don't think that culture shock is the barrier you presume it is.
Also, I would note that by this point in the Ender universe progress has appeared to slow drastically from what we know in our world today. Sure we never get a look at Earth in the Speaker trilogy, but humans on Lusitania really aren't that different from the ones we see in the Shadow series. The effect on sending out colony ships has appeared to retard the rate at which progress had been accelerating, or perhaps it just declined for some reason we don't know. Aside from whatever the heck a "flivver" is and fancy new computer technology (for which you can hire people, as Ender showed in SftD), there isn't much of a shock to be had. And assuming things did progress drastically on the home planet by the time the traveler had returned, the two people could ship out to a colony planet if they wanted and start a NEW culture. There are alternatives.
quote:Originally posted by BlueWizard: I think Val and Ender were able to do it, because they never really took part in society. The never accumulated possessions. What do they care if the iPod has been invented, they don't plan to buy one. At best, then might be tempted to keep their desktops (personal computers) up to date, but beyond that, gadgets and general possession were not the big with them.
A stop for a few months here and there, plus their access to information would do a fair job of keeping them up-to-date on social changes.
I agree that the adaptation to culture shock depends entirely on the individual. But since exceptions such as Ender and Val do exist, then the starflight traveler and the one who remains on stasis could also exist. At the point that this hypothetical example is a possibility I return to my original argument that stasis serves no real purpose in the Ender universe besides clearing up plot points in Ender in Exile. I think the stores post-EinE in the series would benefit more from stasis's absence than its presence, and the technology should be somehow removed. It is no longer necessary and from this point on only serves to confuse readers and muddle the integrity of near-to-lightspeed starflight as the only source for prolonging the lifespans of humans in the Enderverse.
quote:Originally posted by BlueWizard: I'm wonder though, if Stasis wasn't introduced to sync Ender and Val's ages, make them a little close to what they appear to be in later books. Or to create an in-world circumstance that allows for discontinuity in their ages to be explained.
Quoth I in my previous post: "(Stasis) works in EinE because it explains the Valentine/Ender age discrepancy, but if that continued then Val would keep aging (as SftD stands right now she has to be 41 when she reaches Trondheim and marries Jakt)."
So I absolutely agree with you that one of the reasons for Ender to go on stasis in EinE is to reconcile the siblings' ages for later books. That and prolonging Graff's lifespan were stasis's two great purposes in existence. And now it has accomplished those I say let it die. That is all.
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I've finally finished EiE after being "almost finished" for days now. I had actually started typing a semi-lengthy review, but then, partway through, I realized that I suck at writing reviews.
So I decided to sum things up as simply as I could: EiE tells a story that didn't need to be told. It has its flaws, and it's not the best book in the series. But I am very glad that OSC wrote this book. I thoroughly enjoyed reading it, and I look forward to subsequent readings in years to come.
Shadows in Flight cannot come soon enough.
And if you happen to read this, Mr. Card, thanks again for the signed copy!
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quote:Originally posted by Scrooby: Long time OSC fan, first time poster.
I finished reading EinE last night and I must say that while I enjoyed many things about the book, overall I am rather disappointed. Those of us who have been reading all of the Enderverse short stories over at IGMS have already read a rather large portion of this book. This in and of itself wasn't that big of a deal seeing as the characters and events in those stories were expanded upon and given closure.
I suppose my main issue with this novel was that it just felt so pointless. To me it didn't feel like a cohesive novel, but more a string of short stories. I was left feeling that a couple more stories over at IGMS would have accomplished what this novel was trying to do.
That being said, there are little nuggets throughout the novel that I simply loved (that last scene with Graff is chief among them). And the publication of ANY Enderverse novel or short story is cause for celebration.
So thank you Mr. Card for this gift.
Now it's time to sit back and wait for the next installment in the life of the greatest fictional character ever put on page, Bean.
Ya, Bean is possibly my favorite Character of ALL time. I like that he is dark like me. <---humor. I am waiting on Master Alvin.
Ya know, the little story in the book in the beginning about Alessandra, and her mother. The way he ended the chapter with "Find you a nice boy with prospects."
It was so touching it almost made me cry. The only other book that had me that emotional was in LOST BOYS when the boy tell his father "I had to show them dad!!"
OMG. I jsut KNEW what had happened. Screw M Knight Shamalan.
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quote:Originally posted by El JT de Spang: Are you BlueWizard? Because nothing in his post addresses anything that CRash says in her preceding post.
Naturally, I'm responnding to several people who comment on the likelihood or unlikelihood of Stasis and why it was introduced in the plot.
Some suggested that if Stasis existed when your friend or family went into space, you could just go into stasis. And you could if you could afford it. But, you become very unsynchronized with time and progress. Yes, you and your space friend are still alive, but everyone else who mattered to you got old and died.
That didn't matter to most space explorers because they never intended to come back.
Someone else suggested that Stasis could be a form of immorality, but it could just as easily be a form of death.
Specifically who I was responding do, to me, didn't matter as much as the concepts I was responding to.
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One comment on becoming out of sync with progress: one thing we might expect in future centuries is a lot more knowledge and skill in manipulating learning, emotional state, and even things like loyalty. If I went to bed in 2000 B.C. and woke up in a 1925 A.D. metropolis, I might have some serious problems coping, and the people around me would be pretty helpless at softening the impact, without going to extraordinary lengths such as giving me a primitive isolated habitat. This has been explored in fiction plenty of times.
However, if I woke up in 2425, the people around me might be able to cheaply simulate a world that seems familiar to me, and within that simulation, speak to me in my language, teach me gradually, help me learn to trust what might at first seem like devil magic, and lead me to a mental state that can cope with modern reality. Drugs and subtle neural manipulation could facilitate this and keep me stable and happy. Or they can just leave me in the simulation. (They could even give me the choice.)
A society that can put people into stasis and travel at near light speed shouldn't be far off from powerful techniques of psychology and neural manipulation.
Granted, in the Enderverse, technological progress seems to have halted sometime before 2100, with the exception of starflight, the Little Doctor, and the ansible (for all of which they can thank the Formics). Perhaps that society would be unable to help someone get up to speed, since they've abandoned any signs of technological ambition.
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In response to CRash's lengthy comment...well said, several excellent points, and if we may dwell on this tangent a bit longer, one though kept coming into my mind as I read your reply -- MONEY.
While you sleep for 100 years, who pay the bills? Who pays for Stasis? Who maintains your apartment? Who pays the utilities? Who stores your cloths? If you remain in Stasis, and your space traveling friend comes back, what does he come back to? I'm not saying it can't work, only that it is very complicated.
In the case of my Star Trek example, one of the reasons that the stock market ceased to exist is because the Replicator has been invented. If you want anything, the Replicator simply pulls it from the elemental atom surrounding it, and ...boom... 'tea, Earl Grey, hot'. I suspect the ship even recycles the elemental atoms of the garbage and waste from the ship, and Replicates those atom into ...whatever... a turkey sandwich.
One point I made is that few travelers intent to make a round trip. They go out, and for all practical purposes stay out.
The ship that took Ender to Shakespeare Colony, was then going to travel to another world, and from there on to another, and would eventually make the round trip back to earth. But the real-earth time span would have been massive.
So, again, who pays the earth-side bills during those many centuries of space flight?
I do now understand your 'immortality' comment. In a sense, you are merely commenting on what Ender and Valentine did. Despite being roughly mid-30's when the reached the Nordic colony, they had lived 3,000 years earth-side time.
One caution I would extend to Mr. Card is, don't feel the need to make every little detail consistent. Even real life is never consistent, no reason why fictional life should be either.
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I wouldn't worry about that Steve - while I absolutely adore his writing, he is one of the more "inconsistent" story tellers I've encountered. I have to do alot of mental gymnastics to make some of the problems fit together well enough to handle. I don't really mind, his stories are worth a little imaginative leeway, but I do think it is fair to say he doesn't go out of his way to maintain internal consistency.
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So, again, who pays the earth-side bills during those many centuries of space flight?
What earth-side bills? You're not exactly using any earth-side utilities while in transit, and as was mentioned, it's not usually a round trip, so travelers must sell their homes and whatnot before leaving. As was explained in The Investment Counselor, upon arriving at a destination travelers must take care of outstanding taxes before they can go about their business.
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quote:Originally posted by BlueWizard: In response to CRash's lengthy comment...well said, several excellent points, and if we may dwell on this tangent a bit longer, one though kept coming into my mind as I read your reply -- MONEY.
While you sleep for 100 years, who pay the bills? Who pays for Stasis? Who maintains your apartment? Who pays the utilities? Who stores your cloths? If you remain in Stasis, and your space traveling friend comes back, what does he come back to? I'm not saying it can't work, only that it is very complicated.
Interesting thought. Well, I guess I would assume that if you're rich or influential enough to go on stasis, you can just repurchase whatever you need to survive when you come out of it. I'm putting stock in the idea that the average person didn't have access to stasis and one who does is either in a position of power or has quite a lot of money. Perhaps stasis would be a luxury similar to what a trip into space is right now: it is complicated and expensive of course but people still pay for the experience. Also, it may even be necessary for the traveler to be rich as well, to be able to afford a round-trip flight. So perhaps the issue of finances again decreases the likelihood of the hypothetical happening, though as you said it could still occur.
quote:Originally posted by BlueWizard: One point I made is that few travelers intent to make a round trip. They go out, and for all practical purposes stay out.
The ship that took Ender to Shakespeare Colony, was then going to travel to another world, and from there on to another, and would eventually make the round trip back to earth. But the real-earth time span would have been massive.
That is a good point; in at least the early days of starflight there wouldn't be casual round-trip voyages. However, if stasis did exist then the very concept of such round-trip voyages becomes viable, which was not true in the Enderverse at any time up until EinE was published. The sacrifice that OSC originally wrote about, the disconnection from loved ones that can never be made up for, vanishes...at least for those who, accepting your money criticism, are rich enough to afford it.
The concept of suspended animation feeds into this loop of extended lifetimes that I remember from Worthing and have thought a lot about; I disliked greatly what that society became under somec, and that may be why I am concerned about the introduction of stasis to the Ender universe. Or it could be that I have become so used to what I considered the canon of the previous Ender books that it startled me to have this new twist. I guess that's a common fan reaction when it comes to sequels of any well-known body of work. Posts: 973 | Registered: Apr 2005
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Is Ender broken in this book? I was hoping that it would handle the question of how Ender (semi-)recovered from cracking under the insane amount of stress he went through, but I get the feeling that this isn't really covered.
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Hmmm, it is sort of skipped over, isn't it? Perhaps Ender's somewhat fanatical obsession with the buggers becomes his way of coping? We don't really get too much of his internal thoughts in Exile compared to EG so it's hard to tell.
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One last point of clarification on 'Stasis'.
It is not the cost to the person doing the space traveling that I was worrying about, it the cost, financial, social, and practical, to the person who stays behind is Stasis waiting for them to return.
For example, if my Brother makes a round trip to Colony1/Shakespeare, that's...what...60 years of my life but only 3 or 4 in his life. So, while he is gone and I'm in stasis for 60 years, what happens to my house, my car, my possessions, my investments, ...everything? With the exception of investments, I give everything up; it's all gone.
When my brother returns, he has is familiar and friendly brother there to help with the transition, but we have no place to live, we have virtually no cloths, no furniture, no general possession. Plus, how much help am I going to be, the world moved 60 years (1948 to 2008) forward while I fell behind. My brother is far more likely to have kept up on changes than I will have.
So, it is the money of the person who stays behind in stasis that I'm concerned about.
I think it is far more likely that people who go are people who are able to cut their ties with their past. And people who stay, simply say their farewells, and move on with their life.
Keep in mind that for the person on the starship, we are not talking about that much time; weeks, months, a few short years. I think those who travel in stasis do so for two reasons. The first is that the crew of the starship simply can't have 10,000 wide awake passengers to deal with. I think most are encouraged to go into stasis to relieve the work load on the crew and on the ships resources. If nothing else, it's effective crowd control.
So, I don't see your hypothetical situation coming up that often.
True Stasis does add some complications, and since we suspect that was done to relieve an existing inconsistency, while actually creating more inconsistencies, I again caution OSC not to become too obsessed with fixing inconsistencies. Most I can fix myself with an imagination and an off-page explanation. I would rather keep the heart of the story, than lose the heart, but make the data consistent.
As to extended lifetimes, lives are extended over time, but the lives themselves are not extended. Despite having existed for 3,000 years, by all reasonable measure, both Ender and Valentine are just beyond middle age. The only lifetime that matters is the 'real-time' life that you live. The fact that the world has lived 3,000 years doesn't matter that much to Ender who saw less than 60 year of it.
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(Correction, though. Ender clearly has no idea that Bean and the three genetically challenged babies are on a spaceship somewhere. He bought the party line that they are all long dead.)![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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That is all.
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