Point of view seems to come up a lot in critiques. Is there is a good place to go (website, book, etc.) to get a compehensive treament (with concise descriptions) of the various POVs?
Posted by Christine (Member # 1646) on :
Read "Characters and Viewpoint" by Orscon Scott Card.
It's got everything you need to know...and most libraries carry it.
Posted by Beth (Member # 2192) on :
Concur. It's by far the best treatment of the subject I've seen.
Posted by Lanius (Member # 2482) on :
Oh good. I put in the interlibrary loan request earlier this week.
Posted by Lanius (Member # 2482) on :
The book is great, except no I am daunted by the huge amount of information it provides. How will I remember it all? I should probably just buy it and keep it close to the computer.
Posted by Minister (Member # 2213) on :
Yep. Although after you get used to using POV properly, it becomes so natural you'll hardly have to think about it. But it takes a fair amount of writing to get there.
Posted by J (Member # 2197) on :
Concur with Minister. I've noticed in my reading that the best authors are without exception (in my observation, at least) those who are the best at dealing with POV issues. Good POV handling seems to fix a host of other problems in addition to making the story more interesting and readable.
Posted by Christine (Member # 1646) on :
The only problem I have with POV now is that I nkow it so well I can't stand it when authors violate POV. And many do...especially outside of speculative fiction, which seems to be where the trend to be consistent is strongest.
Lanius: practice, practice, practice. Put something up on F&F....not even for feeedback on the whole piece...just 13 lines with a note that you're trying to get POV issues right. If there's a problem, we ought to be able to find it in that snippet.
Posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (Member # 59) on :
posting so this topic will be visible
Posted by TMan1969 (Member # 3552) on :
Sometmes when I write, I feel like my 16 yr old daughter and I want every character to have a voice (talk all at once) - multiple views, which is difficult to do, especially if your a novice writer. So I have to practice what I preach "slow down and think about what you want to say..then say it - clearly"
Posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (Member # 59) on :
You could go ahead and write all of the views, and then decide which does the best job of telling the story.
Telling a story from several different points of views is a writing exercise at the very least, and it can help you figure out just whom the story really belongs to--who has the most interesting take on the story and whom the reader might be most interested in experiencing the story with.
Posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (Member # 59) on :
In other words, go ahead and write it the way your 16-year-old daughter would. Let that be your first draft, and then rewrite.
Posted by mikemunsil (Member # 2109) on :
Here's a diagram I made to help me understand POV. Feel free to download and use it:
you're welcome, any comments on how to improve or expand it are appreciated
Posted by Loretta (Member # 3639) on :
I hope I'm doing this right. This reply is to mikemunsil. I'm new around here and was just looking around, ran across the POV chart you posted - great little tool! Concise, easy reference. I have a fair understanding of POV, but there are times that I confulse myself, and I can see this could be useful for times like those. Thanks for posting it.
Posted by mikemunsil (Member # 2109) on :
Glad you liked it. If you have any suggestions for other tools like this, please let me know.
Posted by Sara Genge (Member # 3468) on :
Characters and viewpoint inspired one of my weirdest stories. OSC spoke strongly against second person POV and he was correct of course. But, of course, since I'm in that teenager phase of writing I couldn't help but wonder.. what if? Two months later I had a story writen in imperative. Weird, weird, weird
Posted by Skarecrow (Member # 3798) on :
Mikemunsil: Good chart, but it doesn't quite mesh with OSC's ideas of 3rd person...I don't believe. He discusses the 3rd person, deep penetration, and also the limited penetration. He describes deep as being "hot" narration, and says that no other type of narration keeps the reader more closely involved with the MC and the story. That description is in Chap 17 of CHARACTERS AND VIEWPOINTS. Could you review that chapter and maybe amend your chart? If you agree with OSC of course. I like what you have started, though.
Posted by mikemunsil (Member # 2109) on :
Of course I will. Any tool can be improved. Thanks for the note. I'll go look at the chapter and see what I've done wrong.
As for not agreeing with OSC, I reserve the right not to, but I'll make sure I'm on stable ground before doing so!
Posted by Bent Tree (Member # 7777) on :
Great resource. Thank you for the chart.
Posted by T. K. Bounds (Member # 11228) on :
POV and Narrative, a Conundrum(for me)
I'm struggling with an element of a 3rd person POV short story. I want to show the reader what's happening but feel the POV strictures are limiting.
Example Kimo arched his back and roared. His skin shone bright purple. His eyes blazed violet. Brilliant light radiated from him and painted harsh shadows across the pavement.
Obviously, Kimo can't see his own eyes unless he's looking at his reflection-which is a no no.
How is this handled?
Posted by Meredith (Member # 8368) on :
quote:Originally posted by T. K. Bounds: POV and Narrative, a Conundrum(for me)
I'm struggling with an element of a 3rd person POV short story. I want to show the reader what's happening but feel the POV strictures are limiting.
Example Kimo arched his back and roared. His skin shone bright purple. His eyes blazed violet. Brilliant light radiated from him and painted harsh shadows across the pavement.
Obviously, Kimo can't see his own eyes unless he's looking at his reflection-which is a no no.
How is this handled?
Tough one. Does Kimo know that this happens? The rest of the fragment seems to indicate some kind of berserker rage. Is there some sensation that goes with this, like a character's cheeks feeling warm when they blush?
More to the point, however, if he is, in fact, in the grip of some sort of berserker fit, these all seem like unlikely things for him to notice in that moment--particularly if he already knows that's what happens.
You might need to work these details in earlier--or later. Some companion telling him--or perhaps even teasing him about it. Or something along those lines. Or he sees someone else go berserk before it happens to him.
Posted by T. K. Bounds (Member # 11228) on :
@Meredith Thank you for responding. In this instance I solved the problem by changing 'eyes' to 'vision.'
My darn urge to tell a story lets my narrator voice get in the way of my characters POV sometimes.
Posted by walexander (Member # 9151) on :
depends upon who is telling the story. Is it Kimo? A companion? Storyteller? Death? the antag? Who in the end of this is the storyteller? If it is Kimo you wouldn't apply any form of eternal reference of himself. What you've written sounds more of a pov from an observer.
Example: Kimo's pov:
It filled him from within and began to broil: The rage, the heartbreak, and the bloodlust. All the poison from a broken, tormented, battle-scared life, released from the depths of his bowels out through his lungs in a harrowing outcry skyward that rattled bird, leaf, and bark from the surrounding trees. What happened next, he was unsure of. Only fractured glimpses of crimson that bathe faces contorted in terror remained as his vision came back into focus.
This is just a weak example with two seconds of thought, but you might get where I'm going with it about pov.
Just a thought,
W.
this topic probably should be in discussions about writing thread.
Posted by EmmaSohan (Member # 10917) on :
My impression from studying what people write, but which I am still working on, is this.
First person present tense promises that he can't narrate something unless he knows that. (He could see his violet eyes or intend to do that.)
Third person distant allows you to narrate whatever you want.
You can use a different POV and try to create all of the effects of first person present by presenting the story from the character's perspective. But it's easier to cheat, the reader is less likely to notice.
Posted by Jay Greenstein (Member # 10615) on :
quote:Kimo arched his back and roared. His skin shone bright purple. His eyes blazed violet. Brilliant light radiated from him and painted harsh shadows across the pavement.
These are visual elements you talk about but cannot make the reader see. I timed it, and it took me 10.9 seconds to read that line. How long would it take a viewer to experience were this a film, including that roar? About three seconds. So it takes ten seconds on the page to experience what takes three in life.
And personally, were someone I was about to do battle with to do that I'd love it, because before that grandstanding performance was over the fight would also be over.
That aside, what’s meaningful in the line:
He arches his back? Who cares? If he leaned forward, or straightened, the story would change not at all. So including it serves only to slow the narrative and dilute the impact of the sentence and the scene.
That his skin shone bright purple? I have no idea of what that means. Did he light up? Change color? Become shiny? Sweat? No way to know. Does it signify anything meaningfull to him or whoever he's roaring at? Would the story change were that not to happen? Is anyone in the story going to focus on the color change and act on it? If not, who cares?
That his eyes lit up? All that does for me is make me say, “Are you out of your mind? The eye collects and focuses the light that reaches the lens, and projects it onto the retina. And you want to light up the eye’s surface, flood the retina with light and screw with that?
And how can light “paint shadows?” It paints brightness. In fact, it would project a round spot. So while he's roaring, he's sweeping his eyes across the floor for effect? I mean no insult, but if you saw the film, This, Is Spinal Tap (and you should if you haven’t), you’re turning the volume to eleven.
That aside, by the text, the eye is acting as a flashlight, not a weapon. If he needs a flashlight, it matters, I suppose. If not, it’s just more on a list of fluff included only to impress a viewer. On the page the light beam will do nothing useful when presented as part of a list. And the list will only stop the action for ten seconds. As Jack Bickham put it, “To describe something in detail, you have to stop the action. But without the action, the description has no meaning.” And to add Hemingway to that, “Never confuse movement with action.”
Does the roar matter? It seems so, because it tells the reader Kimo’s mood (hopefully in response to something the reader knows about, and knows the significance of).
So what matters to Kimo? What does the reader learn: that he’s pissed. And using twenty-seven words to say something like, “Kimo roared his rage,” seems less than effective in making the reader feel as if they’re living the events.
The thing to remember is that in a film we see the items that create ambiance but don’t matter to the plot in parallel with what does matter. But on the page, as James Schmitz observed, “Don’t inflict the reader with irrelevant background material—get on with the story.”
Everything you can cut from the print version without losing the author’s voice or necessary information gives the story more impact.
That’s why a close POV is so popular. If we mention only what the protagonist is focused on, and responding to in his/her moment of “now,” and what it means to them, we set the scene-clock to running and give the illusion that time is passing in the story as we read, making it a more intense experience for the reader.
Does the reader really care what could be seen, if what’s described doesn’t meaningfully set the scene, develop character, or move the plot? Do they care what you notice? Or does what Kimo is focused on matter to them?
Think about it: He’s living the scene and must react to events. You can stop for a cup of coffee any time you care to. So who displays immediacy, the narrator or the one living the events?
Never lose sight of the fact that our goal, as E. L. Doctorow pointed out: “Good writing is supposed to evoke sensation in the reader, not the fact that it’s raining, but the feeling of being rained upon.”
