What is new is how you make the plots mean something, how you apply those plots to your own characters, who are different from any one else's, how the story you tell touches the minds, hearts, lives of the people who read it.

Plot is only part of what makes a story, and only one way to get started.

Stories can also start with characters, or ideas (take at least two different ideas and come up with some way they can both be part of the same story), or even settings.

If you start with characters, you ask yourself first of all, what does the character want? Why doesn't he/she have what he/she wants? What does the character do about getting it?

Or, you could ask yourself, if you have decided to start with a contented character, what would cause the most pain to this character? And what would the character do about it?

If you start with a situation or setting, ask yourself who is the character who suffers most from this situation, or who is unhappy in this setting?

If you put two or more ideas together, ask yourself about the characters who would be most interesting and most affecting in working out those ideas.

(It all, really, comes back to characters, you see?)

So pick one of the above places to start, and let's discuss your selection.

(Consider this a writing assignment for the Hatrack Writers Groups Writing Class.)
 

Sure.

Pick a couple of ideas at random and put them together and let's see if we can come up with a possible story plan (or two) for them.

Or you think of one idea, and someone else (I'm game, if no one else is) think of another idea, and we'll see if they can go together.
 

Here's one idea.... An artist who paints portraits inadvertently paints the future of his subjects in the backgrounds.
 

Someone finds a cure. Should they use it?
 

You dream prophetic dreams. Almost on a monthly basis you dream a dream that will become reality in approximately 1 year. This has been true for you for as long as you remember. But -- the dreams stop. You no longer dream. What do you do?
 

So, when he stops dreaming, his backgrounds go white.

And scratch my first post; I can't think of any logical way to work it into this. However, I just got another idea of something which would make this really cool! I actually was trying to get this idea to work in another story, and it just didn't fit.

A misfit boy (he can't do anything right, basically) starts talking to aliens. They read his mind, and write messages to him on his computer screen. He becomes friends with them and about twenty years later, they tell him they are a dying race, and if they don't find a planet to land on soon, they will die. He offers them ours. They protest, saying they carry a bacteria which has been specially engineered to infect the brain of any intelligent species, which will deaden enough brain cells so as to make the infected as intelligent as a horse. It's a survival thing, but they like the guy and don't want to do it to his race. He says go ahead, he never liked us much anyway.

Here's the complication. There is evidence that the aliens are completely in his head. He made them up as a security thing. He's completely insane. But, then again, the painter has been painting white backgrounds for almost a year now...

[This message has been edited by Brinestone (edited January 22, 2001).]
 

They could be put together to make a story, and Brimstone shows that with Waxwing's and Will's.

But I think they are actually more than single ideas on their own. They could be stories all by themselves if you do one thing with them.

I'll get to that after this short explanation , though.

I just finished reading Stephen King's ON WRITING, and in it he explains that he hates the idea of pre-plotting a story. He starts from a situation and a character and lets the story grow from there. He calls it uncovering the story the way an paleontologist uncovers a fossil.

So, you've got some way cool situations here.
Instead of trying to add another situation to the ones you've come up with, how about working on the character part?

Who is this artist? There is a post in the Open Discussions about Writing section that suggests a bunch of questions you can ask yourself about him.

The same goes for the person who has found the cure to the virus. Just think of all the chases you could write about (if you wanted to) as different groups try to steal the cure or stop it from being produced or just want to kill the person who discovered it, not to mention all the answers you need to come up with for the characterization of this person.

And who is the dreamer? What has this person done about the dreams, once he figured out that they were coming true? What kind of trouble has this person gotten into that would make the stopping of the dreams a life-threatening thing? Has he promised to dream who wins the Kentucky Derby or something?

So don't worry about a second idea. Take your situation and develop a character (if you can't think of anything else, figure out some way that your character is the one who will suffer the most from the situation).

Put character and situation together and let the story happen.

Who knows what wonderful new fossil you uncover?
 

I was wrong. The list of questions for character developing is in the Writing Class discussion area.

It's the first post in Perry's topic "It's All about Character." Go take a look. It's a very helpful list.

[This message has been edited by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (edited February 11, 2006).]
 

Will.
 

(Don't you just love being told that your approach can be pigeon-holed? <grin> (instead of a smiley face))

That question is one of the ones writers should ask if they decide to do OSC's 1000 ideas in an hour story generating exercise.

Anyway, my main reason for posting this is to say one of =my= favorite things:

There is no One Right Way to write, or to develop characters, or to start stories, or to plan stories, or to plot, or to characterize characters, or to describe scenes, or so on and so forth.

Every writer does it differently and often, every story, even by the same writer, happens differently.

You use what works for you and for the story you are working on.

And if what you've used before doesn't work this time, try something else.
 

Defensive? Well, I tell it to writing classes, not to professional writers, so I think of it as reassuring.

<shrug>
 

Writers may be masochists, but they are also sadists.

Of course, you have to know a character very well to know what will cause the most pain (and you don't want to deal just puny blows, you want to really make the character squirm).

There are plenty of writers who do it that way, I'm sure.
 

But too, the best pain is psychological. Physical pain can be gotten used to, but the other can be a real ripper. I'm sorta finding that out myself, with a teenager who is going the wrong way in life and a wife who thinks it's her fault.

Will.
 

Here comes the pain...

The artist's biggest dream is to receive a commission to do a portrait for a lord or a king or a head of the Church. He gets his commission. He paints the portrait. Then the lord/king/bishop notices something in the background of his new painting that he doesn't like-- and it is part of his future.

So now I ask myself, "What does this mean for the poor artist? Imprisonment? Accusation of treason? Execution?"

Is my story idea ready for assignment #2?
 

(Remember, you have to ask the website software to show you all the topics in Writing Class, because I first posted the assignments about a year ago.)
 

quote:

---

Writers may be masochists, but they are also sadists

---

<grin>
 

I want to introduce a main character on the very first page, and I want my readers to like and identify with him quickly. But I also want this charcter to begin the story with some serious misconceptions about his own motivation. This is a critical part of the story. If the character understands himself at the beginning I cannot tell the story that I want to tell.

The problem is that the reader needs to identify with the character, yet I currently have this very deep character starting with a very shallow motivation. When I write him like this he seems flat and stereotypical.

I have tried to put this flat character into a vivid world using scenery, action, and dialogue. That has helped quite a bit, but I feel I can do better. How can I give him life without revealing to the reader that he misunderstands himself so badly in the beginning?
 

This is just one of many ways to do it I am sure.

Shawn
 

I suspect that point of view is going to be important in how you manage to present this character successfully.

If you use first person, it may be very tricky to get the reader to both identify with this character and to understand that the character is in some form of denial about his motivations.

Readers who want to identify closely with a character may not like finding out that they are identifying with any kind of fool (and if the character isn't being honest with himself whether unconsciously or not, he is going to run the risk of appearing foolish at some point).

You can take the approach suggested by Shawn and use someone else as the point-of-view character. Consider the Sherlock Holmes stories. Doyle uses Watson to tell them in part so that the reader never really sees how Holmes is thinking. This increases the awe the reader feels for Holmes (because Watson feels that awe as well).

An outside character can be used in this way not just to inspire awe, but any time you don't want the reader to really know how the main character is thinking.

You could also do this with what is called "limited third person" where you do not go into anyone's head. Readers today are used to this kind of thing because that's how they watch movies and television (in fact, this kind of point of view is also called "camera eye").

Information about motivations is conveyed only through the characters' body language, words, and actions.

Your character could say his reasons for doing things are thus-and-so, and yet his actions and his body language may disagree with that. The reader will begin to see that this character is fooling himself and watch with interest as he learns better and grows, without feeling that they have identified so closely with a fool.

Anyway, these are some possibilities you may want to consider.

[This message has been edited by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (edited June 02, 2001).]
 

I am writing this story in third person, and I do plan to have another character discover him for what he really is. My plan right now is this:

Chapter 1 shows us the character in his misunderstanding mode. This phase of his life is important for developing certain traits and skills. We also meet the other peripheral characters who help to enable him to continue to misunderstand himself. At the end of the chapter he meets the person who will help him discover the truth about himself.

In chapter 2 (tentatively) the two of them go on a journey together. This has the dual purpose of showing us the world in which the characters live and helping the main character discover the truth about his own motivations. At the end of chapter 2 this main character is ready to begin his transformation into the character I need to tell the rest of the story.

His transformation *might* begin in chapter 3. I have a few other main characters to introduce first, and they will all meet after one or two undergo transformations of their own.

This first character is difficult, because he starts out so flat and stereotypical. He is easy to write, but when I read it back he is boring.

Still, I really want to show the circumstances around him that have created this situation (the enablers) before the transformation takes place. I need him to fit this stereotype.

Another reason for my problem is that, for the sake of realism, I am trying to introduce the character in the midst of a scene with very little dialogue.

I am going to try adding even more detail to the action (ala Tom Clancy) and some humor to help the reader get through the beginning of the story. But my instinct tells me that if I were doing a good job the beginning would be a joy to read without employing tricks like that.

I shall let you know how it goes.

[This message has been edited by Doc Brown (edited June 04, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Doc Brown (edited June 05, 2001).]
 

Perhaps I have tried to take on too much here. I think I have a good idea, but it is proving difficult to bring it to life.

In order to set the stage for this character's transformation, I am starting with a scene in which his shallow personality is at its high point. It is an action scene, and it makes the character very stereotypically macho. I thought this would be a great way to grab readers, but so far I am disappointed.

Later I plan to give the character very charming dialogue, but not in the first scene.

As the story opens, all of the dialogue is in Chinese. This serves a couple of purposes. It allows the readers to get the impression that the character is not what he seems to be within the first few pages. It also adds a very important brick to the foundation of the world in which he lives.

Right now the scene has very little dialogue (long Chinese sentences would annoy the readers and destroy an important element of my story), and reveals very little of what the character is thinking (the character thinks in English, but I do not want the reader to realize this for the first few pages).

I tried writing the dialogue in italicized English, but this does not make the character seem Chinese enough. I want it to gradually dawn on the readers that the character's primary language is really English. Thus they will understand someting about the setting, and begin to suspect that there is a different character lurking inside the main character.

I also cannot describe much of what the character is feeling, because that would reveal that he does not understand his own motivations. So the only emotions he experiences are shallow and macho.

Right now, 95% of the first few pages describe what the character does, with about 2% devoted to thoughts & feelings and 3% to dialogue. The reader sees through his eyes and knows every move he makes with his body. Even though the scene is packed with action, it seems boring!

I have compared my first thirteen lines to the other thirteen line openings I see at this website. By comparison mine are awful. All the shallow action makes it seem like I am writing a comic book! This goes on for at least two pages.

I have considered describing the scene from the point of view of a minor character who is present. The problem is that this minor character is the one who discovers that the main character does not understand his own motivation, and this scene is where he makes that discovery. I do not want the readers to learn the truth until the main character does, so the readers cannot see the scene through the eyes of this character.

The only way I can see to write this, the way I had planned, is to see the opening scene through the eyes of a character about whom the reader cannot possibly care.

I do not believe that I can get away with that for very long, maybe 5-6 pages at the most. Does anybody agree or disagree with that?

(Ohh! I just had a thought! I might be able to make the reader hate my main character . . . that might get their attention!)
 

The first thought that popped into my head was to display the scene from the pov of a cat in a nearby window (or a dumpster, near the action). Yeah, call me crazy, but that's how my mind works. Anyway, then you'd need a reason to be inside the cat, a divice that you could use throughout if there was a plausable reason for it. Then I tossed the idea aside.

Second thought was to have the intro scene be from the pov of one of the minor bad guys, one of the guys he's fighting (or whatever). This person would be focused on his mission, and what he sees/reveals of the main character would be the basic, obvious motivations as they are conveyed by the main character's actions and dialogue. This person could then die (or something) at the end of the scene, necessitating a shift in pov, or you could carry him along, and have him grow in understanding as he continues to encounter the hero. Might also be a way into the motivations of the anti-hero?

Just some brainstorming thoughts, for what they're worth.

Ciao~
 

First you asked: "How quickly should the reader find a character to about whom they care, or with whom they can identify?"

You should try to get the reader to care as soon as possible. (This is what is called the hook, really.) Readers don't need to identify with a character, but they do need to care.

Second, you are asking about whose point of view to tell the story from.

If you pretend you are just filming the story, then you don't have to be inside of anyone's head. You are just the camera.

Show us by their body language, actions, words what the characters think and feel (both your main character and the character who recognizes that the main character doesn't understand his own motivations).

Don't get inside of anyone's head. Just show what a camera would see.
 

JP, it would be impossible to show this scene from the POV of a cat, or any non-human animal. It takes place in a airplane in flight, so no animals are in a position to observe anything. As I said above, using the minor character in the scene would reveal too much. There are bad guys in the scene, but would that not make a VERY difficult hook to set?

Kathleen, I plan on telling the story from the point of view of three or four main characters. Only one of them is in the first scene. In my current draft it takes about 2,000 words before the reader has a chance to care about this character.

That seems like a long time. Maybe I am mistaken? It seems to me that my favorite pieces of fiction hook me much sooner than that.

I have already written the beginning exactly as you suggest, as if the reader were watching a movie. It creates precisely the introduction to this character that I want. But I am wary of setting a 2,000 word hook.
 

In a novel, it's easier to get away with that long of a hook. (Consider that in some mysteries, the murder doesn't happen until the second or third chapter.)

I'd say to let it go for now and get on to the rest of the story. You can spend so much time perfecting the beginning that you never get anything else written.

None of it is carved in marble and you can always go back and work on it more later.

As you work on the rest of the story, you may get some ideas from your subconscious on how to change the beginning so that you're happier with it--subconsciouses tend to work that way--think about something else and they'll hand you the answer you couldn't have dragged from them.
 

Kathleen, it is now obvious to me that this story is destined to be a novel. I believe that I can get by with a 2,000 word hook, although it is now a 100-200 words shorter. I start with a "camera eye" view of the scene to get the reader oriented to the action. Over the course of 1,800 words (or so) I move closer and closer to the character . The camera eye shows the setting clearly, but keeps the character a mystery. Readers who believe the camera eye showed them the real character will be in for a surprise.

I like the way this is working.
 

Write on!
 

I find that my most original and compelling ideas come to me in dreams. When I am awake and thinking in the ordered, analytical way that most of us do, I tend to 're-invent' stories that have been done hundreds of times. When I'm asleep, my brain plays fascinating games of random association. I always write down my clear dreams, and base many stories off of them.

My point then, is that to get away from repetition (though, as many people have said, no stories are truly original), it can be very helpful to let your conscious mind out the back door: think of wild and crazy things, or read interesting things just before you go to sleep. Don't think about whether anything makes sense, just let it go. Later on, you can connect ideas and fix up things that are pointless and stupid. This is the best way I've seen for getting out of the shadow of Shakespeare and Shelly etc. Characters, scenes and sometimes full stories can spring from our minds, if we let them.

If I'm out of place here, I apologize, but I hope my suggestions can help you.

El Toro

[This message has been edited by Bellafontaine Torrez (edited June 18, 2001).]
 

Rust Hills, author of WRITING IN GENERAL AND THE SHORT STORY IN PARTICULAR compares the kinds of stories that come from "night dreams" to those that come from daydreams, and the "night dreams" stories are much preferred.

If you believe in the "collective unconscious," then you can understand why dreams which are products of the subconscious might be more powerful than daydreams which are just wishful thinking. Such dreams would give stories more resonance with readers.

If at all possible, take a minute before you get up each morning to think about any dreams you may recall so you can solidify them in your mind. Then write down what you remember as soon as possible after you get up. Keep these dreams in a journal and review them every so often.

You never know what your subconscious might offer you that might turn out to be exactly the thing you've been looking for in a story.
 

It's the first post in Perry's topic "It's All about Character."

I cant seem to find it...? I am new to the forum, so can you help me out?
 

And on teh subject of dreams I keep a notepad beside my bed just in case i can remember one when I wake up.

 

Ronald B. Tobias discusses how to use the above list of dramatic situations in his book for Writers Digest Books' Elements of Writing series, THEME AND STRATEGY, which may also be out of print by now.

Writers Digest Books also sold a book entitled STEAL THIS PLOT by June and William Noble which listed 13 plot motivations and discussed ways to structure a plot using them.
 

That said, I think two aspects are new in each story. First, the juxtaposition of ideas is new. This is what made the original Star Wars movie so popular. In that movie, you have fantasy, magic, space travel, guns, aliens, boy meets girl, boy finds meaning, redemption (of Han Solo), etc.

Second, you, the storyteller, if you can dig deep within, bring an inimitable perspective to each story you write. This is really what’s new, and I would suggest this is what separates great story tellers from good ones.

Take Ender’s Game, for example. The entire backstory to that novel has been done several times -- Starship Troopers and The Forever War are two that spring to mind. And certainly rivialry between kids is nothing new; Stephen King novels are filled with (younger) kids vs. (older) kids. When you combine those two, you get something . . . well, perhaps not new but seldom done. But I would suggest what is new about that novel is OSC’s presentation of Ender. And in the final analysis, that’s what makes that novel so special.

[This message has been edited by Balthasar (edited May 22, 2003).]
 

You can make every story new by coming up with new combinations of old ideas (I know, I just rehashed some of what Balthasar said, but it bears repeating).

Don't ever try to write a story until you have combined at least two ideas for it.
 

I've never done this, but the only foreseeable danger might be that you destory your love for your favorite novels. Then again, you might come to appreciate the ability of the author even more when you see that your tools are the same as his or her tools.
 

Bryan
 

I'm wondering, though, if you're talking about a plan for a story or the actual start of the story.

If it's the plan, do you have it all planned out, or only some of it?

Do you know what point of view you want to use? I ask that because Toriyn isn't going to think of the place where he lives as "ancient" or "Greece." So are you telling the story as an omniscient narrator, or is the story going to be from Toriyn's point of view?

What does Toriyn want? How does he feel about this stranger telling him about his future? Who is Toriyn in the first place and who is there for him to rebel against?

Have you read Orson Scott Card's books CHARACTER AND VIEWPOINT and HOW TO WRITE SCIENCE FICTION AND FANTASY in which he talks about kinds of stories? Do you know what kind of story you're planning to tell? (What you've described so far makes me think it could be any of the four, but I'd go for either the character story or the event story if I were you.)

You need to figure out things like that as you plan your story, as well as the things I mentioned in the opening post of this topic.
 

1. I'm thinking that this will be both a character and event story ( the event being the rebellion against Mt. Olympus )

2. He knows he lives in a world where gods, mysterious creatures, and most of the mythos roam.

3. Toriyn is a guy that wants to be the chief of his village one day and take over for his father.

4. He's totally freaked out about hearing the news of his future from some guy that appears to him while he's hunting.

5. I have the story planned out to tentatively having Ares reveal himself later in the story, but someone is pulling his strings. Ares is doing this to get more power. I was thinking that Thanatos and Cronus joins forces and has poor Toriyn lead the way as a puppet.

If you have anything else to comment on let me know.
 

An "event" story is when there is something wrong with the way things are (an imbalance in the status quo, more or less) and the story starts when the main character decides to do something about it.

From what you've said, I don't think you are talking about an event story.

A "character" story is when a character either desires a role he doesn't have or is thrust into a role he doesn't want. What you've described sound much more like a character story (both ways) than an event story.

I really think you need to read CHARACTER AND VIEWPOINT and HOW TO WRITE SCIENCE FICTION AND FANTASY by Orson Scott Card so you will better understand the story you are planning to write.

Your local library should have copies of both books.
 

Toriyn is going to be thrust into a leadership role of a rebellion, not into the role of being chief of his village. He has no idea of what being a leader is all about yet and he's going to have a hard to doing so.

Now with all that said, is this a good example of a character story?

Bryan
 

Write on!
 

Let's say I have this world that's strictly dependent its technological advancement, far more so than we are. They've been building robots (I use the term loosely; I refer to them in all shapes and sizes, androids abound) to take all the dirty jobs. Manual labor and whatnot. The society's leaning as far as it can toward being as autonomous as they can. Once they have robots doing every job that could be done by robots, most of them can focus on leisure, and the rest, on attempting to further the technology, or to explore space, or what have you. The point is, they're building more and more machines, and the only really sought-after jobs are programmers -- who are fervently working on programming robots that can learn how to program for them.

But this world has two quite large problems: One, they're running out of resources <i>fast</i>. It takes materials to build these things, and those materials are pretty much almost gone. Two, a radical group called (insert radical group here) is making hell on the robotics manufacturers, as they think that this system is placing far too much power in the robots' hands, and fear a hostile takeover, despite the three laws of robotics.

So then, let's say I have another world that exists more or less parallel to this one. Same shape, same size, same place, just grew up differently. Planetary fraternal twins, let's call them, that live on slightly different planes. This world has not been producing technology by themselves; they rely heavily on magic. Their system is simplified as thus: One corporation simply called the Company is host to three near-omniscient energy forms that monitor the world. If they detect any illegal use of magic, whether it's an unpermitted spell, or a permitted spell that commits a crime, they alert the Company, and it sends its Headhunters out to detain the criminal and clean up the mess he might have made. The Company is very good at what they do.

This world is rather primeval; its largest kingdom is ruled by a shapeshifting, backstabbing Queen named Nyth, and the Company's top Headhunter is an elf named Jerin who can either see exceptionally well and not hear at all, or hear exceptionally well and not see at all, but there's never any grey area. There are faeries and dwarves and most of the creatures of lore -- even demons, which is where one of this world's problems lies. Normally, the demons stick to their own business, playing their games of status and kicking back, just having fun, but once in a blue moon, there's a black sheep that just has to ruin it for them all. This black sheep's name is Raelk, and he's a dangerous mix of demon and man. The demon blood in him dictates to go kill things; the human in him says wait, stop, think about what you're doing. Regardless, he's making trouble for the Company, and they're going nuts just trying to find him.

Both worlds affect each other on an almost constant basis, though the denizens of each have no idea that the other exists. For example, Michael, a software programmer, has a strange knack for controlling the autonomous -- he can look at a light switch and it will fall, but he'll soon forget about it and pay it no real mind. At the same time, bits and pieces of his world's technology is showing up in Raelk's world, and getting twisted by magic -- a machine that is infested with nature's grace turns into something else entirely.

So here's my question: How do I get the two worlds to know each other? I have a plan, once they do; I want the people of the technological world to see the magic of the other world in effect and realize that it could solve their resources problem, then try to cultivate it as they did every other resource -- try to figure out what, exactly, magic is. I even have plans for that part of it, though it involves quite a bit of researching, but in the end, I'm going to have them start a group (lovingly named the Asimov Project) that is devoted to crafting robots who can cast limited magic -- just enough to make their tasks autonomous but effective. For example, a robot that can grow a forest over a period of a few years, or a satellite that can monitor the world's climate and make little changes here when needed. At the same time, the technological world could help the Company track and take down Raelk.

So. Any ideas? Problems? Gaping holes?

[This message has been edited by J. Alfred Prufrock (edited July 20, 2004).]
 

I think you're more likely to get that if you post this summary in the Fragments and Feedback section. I think the people there would love to suggest ideas for you.

The stage you are at with your story is a little beyond the scope of these writing assignments.
 

I need to start a story as the first assignment: a character and a conflict...hmmm, dum de dee dum, let see what the cat has in the bag...

("My, my Matilda! You was allus a tom-boy, but you look like a damsel in dis dress!")

Wow, there's not much in here.

My first assignment and I have writer's block!

Okay, how this for an idea:

A lazy young man in his early twenties comes home for breakfast late one morning after having stayed overnight at a friend's house. He finds the place stripped of all possessions and thinks it has been burglerized until he finds a note on the floor from his parents. The note states that they have run away taking all their things with them. He has one month before the people they sold the house to move in.

A US platoon on patrol in Afghanistan is ambushed and the platoon is wiped out. The sole survivor is of Middle Eastern decent and to survive he disguises himself as one of the locals. He then tries to find his way back to base and safety.

I see this as leading to several possible scenarios:
1) In disguise he falls in with a group of locals who turn out to be rebels. He is not able to leave safely so must assist them in what they are doing.
2) He is spotted by another US platoon who mistake him for a rebel and he must defend himself.
3) He is helped by a local village and while there the village is attacked by US forces who belive it is a rebel base. He assists the village in (defending itself/escaping).

There are plenty of other possible situations that could arise but I thought the initial situation could be quite interesting.
 

//Thiwhin
 

[This message has been edited by spaceturd (edited November 14, 2005).]
 

Slight bit of background:
A girl, nicknamed Luky (pronounced looky not lucky), grows up with an imaginary friend, whom - strangely - she only sees in a mirror in her Grandmother's attic. The girl is a slight bit older than luky, but while Luky has continued to age into her 30's, the girl in the mirror stopped at about age 20..

Story Idea:

Luky, is startled awake by a loud scream while staying at her Grandmother's house. The scream came from the attic.

Luky has just had a nightmare in which the girl from the mirror threw a child through the mirror. The child landed in the attic dust, and then the girl turned around and all Luky remembers is a horrible scream and a very bright flash of light.

Luky - of course - investigates the attic the next day, to no avail. What IS strange is that the girl from the mirror (ok lets call her mirrorgirl for now...)is there in the mirror when luky looks, but Mirrorgirl is just lying there, possibly dead, no marks
anywhere. Luky can see the room the Mirrorgirl is lying in and its a baby's room, with no baby.

It takes just a few days of watching for Luky to realize she is either 1) crazy or 2) this is another world and that Luky has witnessed a murder. Luky recklessly touches the mirror (ok YES that part needs thought out), wishing she could enter that world... and finds herself in a world of magic.

Eintering this world there are several things Luky must discover - how it works, how she got there, why Mirrorgirl died, who the baby was, where the baby is now, and perhaps most importantly - how to get home to her own two children.
 

First idea: There's a set of conjoined twins, both connected at the waist who were born with extraordinary abilities; one, on the left, has foresight, while the other, on the right, has the wonderful ability to forget. :-P

They both pilot a small galactic 'trash' ship, capturing and destroying/recycling space junk left from centuries of careless humans: useless satellites or simple industrial waste, on and on, etc. etc.

Second idea: They come across a peaceful race of aliens who happen to worship the stars and whatever is in it. They believe that all creatures deserve the right to worship whatever they believe and that they have no right to compell or battle others for the sake of their religious beliefs or their right to existance.

The main conflict, and probably not the only one, comes when the twins inadvertantly dismantle and destroy what the aliens consider an "artifact" of GREAT holiness and significance to their entire culture. The twins encounter the aliens who beg the question, "Why have you destroyed the _______ of all that is holy!"

The twins have to find a way to get out of the situation without causing a war between alien and human. The twin with foresight sees several outcomes, but never knows which path to take (the ability is for themselves and not others) while his twin constantly asks what's going on. :-P

The aliens, on the other hand, are faced with the delima of losing their holy relic, which, in it's destruction, they have to restructure their entire life-style and existance; further being tested on their pacifistic, peacful ways. Do they kill the infedel humans or do they forgive them and resign themselves to such a depressingly long and arduous task of restructuring their lives.

Well, I SAID it was silly. Anyway, I'm not sure I'm going to run with it, but it might be an interesting short story. Can you guys see any other ways I could improve upon it?
 

A rakish boy whose mother is an alcoholic and whose older brother Colyn is always angry and looks down on him. The boy, Greg who is carefree and goodhearted survives through the good hospices of his friends. But an evil accusation from his brother threatens to drive him insane, "no matter what you do, your a loser and we'll always be looking after you"

Greg lays on a floating dock looking at the blue sky and wonders what the Fates have in store for him, until a bottle floats to him. Inside a message, which promises to fulfill all his dreams but he first must wish away his worst enemy..

who does he wish for? what does he want?
 

JK shared his idea about a priest who is made into a vampire, and the ensuing spiritual turmoil in this man's life. The fact that he drinks another person's blood torments him.

It occurred to me that this torment would be exacerbated by the fact that by the 7th century Christians believed, and the Catholic Church affirmed at the Cousel of Trent(1562–63), that in the Eucharist (Communion) the bread and the wine are "transubstantiated", becoming in fact the actual flesh and blood of Christ.

Can you imagine the conflict raging in this priest's soul while tryng to administer Holy Communion to his flock? When bringing the chalice of Christ's blood (from which only the priest drinks)to his lips?

I'm a Protestant, so I don't know if this is still taught by the Church, but one would have to set the story far enough back in history for this point to be relevant to the priest.

-- Boricua

[This message has been edited by Boricua (edited July 15, 2006).]
 

Yes, we believe this and it is still called "transubstantiation". (Actually, when I say 'we believe this' I can't actually talk for the one billion Catholics out there, but rather what I mean is this is still the teachings of the church). Is Vatican II the entire congregation, not just the priest, drinks the precious blood.
This belief was the reason early Christians had the charge of cannibalism leveled at them.

Upshot is, this aspect would be cool in the story, and you wouldn't have to set it way back in history.
 

The "Wildlands" are home to fueding clans that have recently struck up a tenative truce due to the onset of an early and bitter winter. The two largest clans are bitter rivals that still have a fair amount of bad blood between them. The ruler of the Southern "Civilized lands" decides to take advatage of their predicament by forcing them to sign alliegence to him or suffer a trade embargo that would surely be the end of them all. He demands that they send an emissary by a predetermined date to sign the contract.

One of the major clans emissaries is waylaid on his way to sign the contract. The Ruler believes his clan to be the only rebel faction. He strikes up a deal with the rival clan.

The rival clan shows up a hundred strong bearing no weapons and speaking of the glorious union between all of the clans under the banner of the ruler. They come bringing gifts of food and grain and that night a great feast is put on as a show of welcoming and hospitality. When everyones is fat with food and drink all fall asleep. The rival clan wakes up before dawn and with weapons they brought hidden slaughter every man and able boy in the clan.

A small hunting party returns from the mountains with the last haul of furs and meat for the year to find the carnage. The men all dead, the women and children gone.

I plan on having the small hunting party, 3 brothers and an older mentor be the main characters in the story.
 

Now that I think about it the emissary might be the better opening scene.

Any thoughts?

Scott

[This message has been edited by trailmix (edited December 02, 2006).]
 

Edited to add:

The emissary is from the wiped-out clan, too, right? (Or did I misunderstand?)

Anyway, using the POV of the emissary takes the story out of a revenge story, and yet the emissary will certainly sympathize with the hunters and their desire for revenge. The emissary will have a bigger picture of things, though, and want to find a way to not only obtain justice, but help the remainder of his people survive.

I think it will be more interesting for the emissary to have to figure out what happened and what can be done to salvage things, so I agree that the emissary is the best choice for POV and for the story start.

Again, please start writing.

[This message has been edited by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (edited December 02, 2006).]
 

Scott
 

Scott
 

When you start with a situation, a next step might be to then ask yourself who suffers from the situation and therefore would try to change things.

From there you might make a list of things that person could try, which would get you into "what could go wrong?" questions (also known as the "try-fail cycle" which may be repeated as long as you like, and as long as the character learns something each time that makes the next try smarter and more exciting, until someone finally pays the price that makes things work out).
 

I have about 9,000 words so far and about 3,000 word ending...but I like the try-fail idea. It's the first time I heard about that.

I was trying, still trying, to tie in the aliens with our history and mythology (they look grim reapers and wear dark robes).
 

I wrote something up about that workshop and posted it here if anyone is interested.

Also, in a novel, you can have the goals change as the character learns more from each try-fail cycle, so that what the character tries for early in the novel isn't the same thing as what the character tries for later. But, as you said, that's for novels.

Maybe I would sell more if I had more conflicts solved with edged weapons.

I'll put 13 lines of one of these stories, which has bounced from all the major markets -- but with nibbles -- up on the thirteen line forum tomorrow. (Got something different to put up today, and one a day seems an upper bound.)
 

One way to describe tragedies is that they are stories where the two antagonists discover too late that they weren't really on opposite sides after all, and if they had only known, they could have worked things out.

I like the positive ending to that kind of story, when two parties with worthy objectives are working at cross purposes and the story is resolved when they figure out how to cooperate so that both sides achieve some kind of success.

So it's fine to start with two people in conflict. If you can make them both "good guys" in the sense that they are trying to achieve good things, you will create interesting conflicts in the reader (who will not know whom to "cheer" for) and you will have a chance of avoiding predictability in your story.

Then, if you can come up with a satisfying resolution to their dual problem, you will have achieved a "double whammy" instead of just having one winner.

It's something to consider, anyway.
 

A mother kills her child, and is brought to trial. Her defense: it came from my body, so don't I have a right to terminate it? Two outcomes: she's jailed (and it's a philisophical text) or she wins (then we have a horror story).

It's the classic abortion line, but radically applied. Anyway, any takers?
 

The conflict is less the speculative aspect than just the interrelational nightmare. The bride wants to keep her autonomy, the groom wants to honor his traditions, and his family wants the groom to do what they say (since this has been his pattern up to now).

What do you think?
 

aerten, you've got an interesting conflict to explore. I'd say go for it. One thing, though, as OSC has said in his "1000 Ideas in an Hour" presentations, as you develop this story, don't use the first ideas that come to you. Toss them out and go for the third or fourth or fifth ideas. You could really do some interesting things with your story if you give yourself a chance to surprise people.
 

I don't know if he ever sold it, but it is the SKELETON CREW collection.

My own thought on writing a story that's not likely to sell is to write it anyway because you need the practice. I've found that the more I stifle myself, the harder it is to write, and the more I write what I find interesting, the more ideas I have.

What exactly have you lost by taking a week or two to write a story? Unless writing is your livelihood, the answer is NOTHING.

 

Do you think this piece could develop?
 

There are a lot of ideas that could be driven from what you have started with if you explore the question why.

 

I have to confess a bias here, though: I have a hard time getting into stories that start with description because they don't make me care. The only ones that work for me are the descriptions written from a character's point of view, because such descriptions can be used to show the character (by what the character notices and cares about, for example).

Is there any reason you couldn't have the mother wolf viewing the setting as she's worrying about where her cub has gone and how to get it back?
 

I would have to alter at least one of the descriptions though as I had described the rising moon affected by the sand rsing of the dessert as a half empty glass of wine rising to a pair of unseen lips (can't think of exact wording at present). For some reason I don't think a wolf would come up with this description

That is actually an interesting point for me to keep in mind - Don't mind me as I ramble away to myself here - All the descriptions in the piece would need to be driven by the understanding of the MC, so the moon might then be compared to the colour of fresh salmon, or similar. This would alos help the reader to enter the mind of the MC.
 

A variation on the "start with death, end with justice" story is what might be called the "or-else" story, where death is the cost of losing, so the motivation is to prevent the death.

Serial killer mysteries are a kind of combination of both in that there have already been deaths, but there is also the rush to prevent any more deaths.

It can also be argued that physical death is not the only kind of death that can motivate. Death of someone's self-image (or role in life) can be an extremely powerful motivator in stories of either kind, but they tend to fit more in the "character" designation than in the "event" designation.

Interesting insight, jaycloomis.
 

As an idea for a character... hmmmm...

How about an artistic prodigy (painter, sculptor, paper mache anyone?) shows great talent, but becomes blind at a young age.

(Stealing Beethoven as an inspiration for the idea...)
 

And, as OSC recommends, you throw out the first and second idea, at least. In other words, in this case, you would throw out the idea that this character wants to continue to create art. (You throw it out because it's obvious. Of course the character will want to continue to create art.)

What else does this character want?

Also, what you have is only one idea (a character talented in visual art who loses visual abilities). You need to come up with at least one other idea to go with it.
 

This young man was a very talented pianist, if I remember correctly, but one of his hands was badly burned in an explosive fire accident. He learned how to play the French Horn, which requires only one hand, and his musical talent pulled him through.

So your idea is good, but you need to add things to it to make it unique and thereby compelling.

Perhaps what the character wants is only incidental to the artistic talent.

Perhaps what the character learns how to do instead of paint (sculptors can be blind, by the way), is still creative and talented, but it also helps the character accomplish the REAL goal, and (even better) helps in an unexpected way.

So keep thinking of ideas. The more the better (plenty to choose from and to knock against each other).
 

He is not one to give up life to depression. He decides that he will be a musician, but he is utterly horrible. He is completely tone-deaf and lacks any form of skill.

All those around him know his tragic story and lie to him, telling him he is a better musician than he was an artist. David continues to pursue his newfound craft with fervor.
 

So, next question, what can go wrong? (Obvious answer: some jerk who isn't in on the "let's lie to David" plan, blurts out the truth and David is devastated.)

So, what are your second, third, fourth, etc ideas?

Edited to add: and maybe you should go read the second assignment topic:

http://www.hatrack.com/forums/writers/forum/Forum5/HTML/000007.html

[This message has been edited by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (edited December 14, 2007).]
 

I guess I’m wondering, is this common among writers? Or should I have a clear cut idea of where I want to go and stick to that no matter what?

The hardest part of writing for me is coming up with names for characters. Is there a better way to do this than just randomly selecting names?
It may help to know that I primarily write Sci-fi and Fantasy

Ok looking at my rambling it occurs to me that I have not given a topic which is really what this thread is for. So here is an example of one of my dreams I have started to turn into a story.

It opened up with two guards chasing an enemy of some kind. He was well in the lead but seemed to be staying just out of range,like he was toying with them.
The two guards had a dog that was sniffing out the trail for them and in the dream I could hear the baying of the hound as it was hot on the fugitives trail.

In the dream the two guards were arguing as they went along, one of them was young and optimistic while the other older and experienced with this particular quarry, having lost his trail many times over the years.

The dog leads them to a clearing where the guy they are following is seen standing there in the middle just waiting for them. In the full moonlight they see him smile coldly but playfully just before a cloud covers the light and sends the night into blackness. It is only dark for a moment but when the light returns the guy is gone and the hound is standing nose to the ground where the guy was only a moment ago. Now the two guards argue in earnest and the older one is ready to go for help but the younger one isn’t ready to give up the search yet. Even though it is plain that the dog had lost the trail.

First thing I began thinking about is why these guys were following the guy. Why was he a fugitive? Then I began thinking about possible ways he could have pulled off the disappearance.

It might also be helpful to note that I am looking at this story idea from a Science fiction POV

 

Dreams are actually a very good source of stories. They come from the subconscious, which is the part of the mind that can be very helpful to writers in developing stories, and they express things that can resonate with readers.

Rust Hills, in his book (which I recommend), WRITING IN GENERAL AND THE SHORT STORY IN PARTICULAR, says night dreams are much better story sources than day dreams because they come from a much deeper part of the mind and are more powerful than mere wish fulfillment (day dreams).

You are absolutely on the right track in asking yourself questions about the dream. Those questions will signal to your subconscious that you are interested in its offering (the dream) and you will often receive more cool stuff from the same place.

Keep at it.
 

quote:

---

I guess I’m wondering, is this common among writers? Or should I have a clear cut idea of where I want to go and stick to that no matter what?

---

As for dreams, yes, those play a strong role in my stories as well. Almost all my stories have some root in my dreams.
 

This story idea I mentioned is about 10.000 words into it now and I feel strongly that it is leading into kind of a prequel to another story I have been stewing on for about two years now. When I first had the dream I had know idea it was leading into that like a series opener. But now after working on it for several months now it seems that this is where the previous story must begin.

Funny thing is I had been pondering the previous story idea for a couple years now and haven’t done more than start a tentative history (mostly for myself) to get an idea where that story was heading. It was in the midst of working on the first story that the dream took place, and now it seems to be just the beginning I was looking for. With this new storm of ideas the full story seems like it would be too long to tell in just one novel. Even an extra large novel would fall short of telling the story the way I have it envisioned in my mind.

I guess at this point the question is, is it better to keep working on the story that seems to be flowing and finish it first? Or should I go back to the original story idea and develop it now that I know where it all seems to have started?
Originally I had planned on writing out the other story first and then using this as a prequel as I said. But now it seems like this is the story that should be written first to prepare the way for the rest of the story.

Confidence in my own judgment I guess is the real issue. I don’t have the confidence in my own writing to trust my first instincts. Is there any way that that can be overcome, short of just writing and seeing how it goes?

 

If you force yourself to write one thing when another thing is pulling at you, you not only run the risk of doing a poor job on the thing you are forcing yourself to write, but you may also lose the excitement for the one that is pulling at you, and when you finally get to it, you won't write it as well as you might have, either.

When you write what excites you, that excitement can carry over into the story, and the reader may pick up on it. Take advantage of that.

You are going to be doing some rewriting no matter what you decide to work on, and it would be better to get the good stuff down while it's good. That way, when you get to the rewrite, you may not have as much rewriting to do as you would otherwise.
 

When I do have more of the story written, should I post it in the fragments area? I would love some helpful insite. This being the first story I would like to try getting published I am very nervous about it.
 

The risk of posting 13 lines when you're not finished is that you'll spend all of your energy making the 13 lines perfect and never get any further than that.

Allow yourself to write badly, if necessary, so that you can at least finish a first draft. Then, go back and work on editing and rewriting and looking for feedback.

Stephen King, in ON WRITING, calls this writing the first draft with the door shut, then opening the door and getting help with subsequent drafts.

The only time I'd say it's okay to "open the door" without a finished first draft is when you need some brainstorming on where to take the story next or how to wrap it up, and you can do that in the Fragments and Feedback areas by describing the story and asking for ideas (no need to post the 13 lines then either).
 

However, as decendents of the Magi, only certain individuals have the genetic trait to be able to access life energy to cast magic. In the beginning demons, magicians, and magical beasts were very much a part of the world; however, in near the end of the dark ages 5 sisters were born and trained by the Magi. When completed with thier training the sisters cast a veil upon the world seperating the mundain form the supernatural.

In 2040 - something happens (I won't reveil it here) to knock down the veil, and the ancient powers are unleashed once more upon the world.

The story starts with a contented teen girl, who, when her brother, a budding undiscovered magician, is kidnapped by warlocks is inadvertantly drug along in a series of adventures that will change the fate of mankind for all time.
 

The Earth is severely depopulated by a cosmic dust storm.
Too many people want to emigrate to Mars.
Lunar colonists demanding independence face an embargo from Earth.

This one is difficult, but haunts me. I may have to write it sometime.
Every day at the stoke of noon, a unicorn is chased through the town square by an ogre.

A man falls in love with his dog and wants her made human.
As the Earth enters a new ice age, magical beings reappear.

The one I chose to write was -- A woman on a space colony gets in a dispute about her dog. It's working title is -- Sweetums Saves the Day.

I think ideas rather than characters inspire me. I find a situation that intrigues me, then I walk around looking for people to populate it. Sometimes I have a glimpse of something about the situation. The woman with the dog was like that. I saw this little dog walking up the wall of a corridor in the low gravity part of the space station, near the center. And I felt how irritated someone in charge could be at that.

[This message has been edited by arriki (edited February 20, 2008).]

[This message has been edited by arriki (edited February 20, 2008).]
 

There's this sixteen-year-old boy, lives somewhere in California. He's bullied all the time, his parents are dead, et cetera. As a result of this, he is miserable, to the point where he is considering "going Postal" on some of his assailants.

Suddenly, as he is walking home from school, he's blasted into another world by (though he doesn't know it at the time) his only possession: a gold, ruby, and emerald pendant and his own, hidden but slowly emerging powers. The world's name? Atlantis. Magic and incredibly advanced technology is abundant in this place, as are mysterious, dark, assailants called Demons.

During his adventures, the boy (whom I have decided to name, for now and for simplicity's sake, Keril) begins to realize the growing connection between Earth and Atlantis, a realization that comes to fruition as Keril discovers that the main antagonist, a Sovereign-class Demon, seeks to reconnect the two worlds again so that it may take over both with an enormous demon army.

Keril and his friends eventually convince the leaders of both Earth and Atlantis to join forces and wage wholesale war on the Demons, and, though several major victories are won, Keril knows that the only way to truly end this war is by killing the Sovereign-class Demon behind all this. The catch: he's the only one who can do that task, and he is destined to die in the attempt.

Oh, and Keril isn't going to be his final name, so don't bother.
 

I guess my main question has to do with your statement that he has friends. If he's bullied, are these friends also bullied, or does he only acquire friends when he's pulled through to Atlantis? If the latter, what about being in Atlantis helps him be able to make friends, changes him into someone who can convince governments when he couldn't even keep his own peers from picking on him in California?

You are describing some pretty large changes for a character, and as long as your story shows how those happen, how he grows into the kind of person who can do what he needs to do, your story has possibilities.

Also, your description is a good start at a synopsis that you can build upon when it comes time to send queries to editors. I'd recommend, though, that you include something about how he happened to own the gold, ruby, and emerald pendant, because that's pretty crucial.

I hope this helps.
 

The story is set in a world, similar to feudal Europe. Society is matriarchal.

There is a society of magic users. The magic users make a living casting drug-like dreams for the elite of the royal house. It is part of the upper society, where it is done both in group settings as well as in private.

Magic users are born with a certain amount of power, but the circle has existed for a long time because they have found away to increase that power. They murder young magic born, before they grow up. This of course is the dark secret that no one knows of.

The antagonist, a caster, has overused his strength and is becoming weak, but his assassin/spy/assistant can only find one magic born. This magic born (MC) cannot be touched, because he is of the royal house(the son of the Regle--the queen)

The MC becomes aware of this gift as he ages. His maidens tremble in the night when he dreams. He begins to question and seek knowledge of this power, where he meets the caster and the conflict begins or at least by the MC's understanding.

My problem is: The POV of the antagonist is crucial to know of the secret society and of the secret conflict. I think the story could best be told from this POV. However, the internal conflict and the MC seeking the truth, can also be interesting, and is valuable to the plot. I am tinkering with the idea of making this longer and turning it into a novella with contrasting POV.

Any suggestions?

[This message has been edited by Bent Tree (edited March 13, 2008).]
 

I'd recommend starting with the antagonist, then adding the MC as he is old enough to start figuring things out. I agree that you need to make the secret society and the secret conflict clear.

You can also make the antagonist somewhat sympathetic if there is something good he is doing with his magic, besides entertaining the rich, something that is causing him to overuse his strength. That could give him an inner conflict that would make the story even more powerful.

If you use the young magic-born as your main character, how old is he going to be when he starts figuring things out? That's why this sounds like a long time frame, by the way.

What if you were to keep the story in the antagonist's point of view, and have him choose to do this good thing, whatever it is, that will drain his powers faster, because he is basically a good guy and frustrated to be doing this "drug-work" for spoiled rich people. Have him decide that if he's going to do this, he is going to need a young magic-born to kill, and he hates the idea. Perhaps he feels guilt at having survived such a death when someone he cared about was sacrificed by a magic-user instead of him?

Then have him become deeply committed to this good he is doing, only to find out that the only magic-born available is not only untouchable, but royal. And, to add to his inner conflict, he could discover that he likes the kid. (Maybe the Regle has asked him to be her son's tutor, and the boy reminds him of the person who was sacrificed instead of him?)

Just had another thought: what if the Regle is the one who has suggested this greater good he could be doing, so he's committed to her, too? He can't tell her about how it will drain his powers, nor can he tell her how he would have to renew them. Inner conflict upon inner conflict.

I apologize. I'm rewriting your outline for you. Please feel free to discard everything I've said after my first four paragraphs. Feel free to disregard them as well, if they don't help you with your story.
 

I'd like to keep it short, with the option of expanding it later.
How about this: Opening with the weakening caster about to perform a cast for the society function. He begins thinking about his choice to not sacrifice the young prince, and how right it was. Maybe it was his time--the natural progression of things. Then during the cast it is embarrassingly interrupted by the unknowing prince, who had come seeking answers.

Out of rage the caster changes his mind, and the conflict ensues--a battle of illusion The weak against the unskilled. In the end the Old caster is beaten, but the prince to end it must take his life. When he does he is blackend by the magic-- a ploy maybe for the caster to become young again. Injecting himself into the powerful youn man?

[This message has been edited by Bent Tree (edited March 13, 2008).]
 

If the problem is that your only choices for getting the secret society and secret conflict clear are to use the antagonist as point of view character, or to have the young magic-user be the point of view character and have the antagonist tell him what is going on ("this is why I have to kill you!" kind of thing), you have to decide between two risks.

1--an unsympathetic point of view character (the antagonist) is very hard to write so that readers will care, or

2--having the antagonist tell the point of view character about the secrets which verges on the "Evil Overlord" ending (see number 7 on the list of "The Top 100 Things I'd Do If I Ever Became An Evil Overlord" a little ways down the page of this website) and which is EXTREMELY cliche.

If you can figure out (maybe through his dreams?) another way for the young magic-user to obtain enough of the information he needs so that when he confronts the antagonist, it only takes a sentence or two for him to put it together, that would be best.

And you can use the young, and more likely to be sympathetic because he's a potential victim, magic-user as your point of view character.
 

Your advise and suggestions are very much appreciated though. I like how your creativiy flows.
 

And best wishes on the contests.
 

The world is typical nearish-future; picture desert third-world conditions, but minus the population density. Slavery is illegal but widely practiced. Developmental brain disorders are more common due to widespread mutation. Like now, certain triggers can bring out the disorders in susceptible people, but unlike now, they can occur at any age.

Few people gain any special abilities by this, but many of those who do are obsessed with gathering everyone they can into a powerful mega-mind and obliterating individual personality. They identify their prey, usually fertile adult women, the insane, and the gifted, by pheromones. Anyone else they try to merge with just dies. The mega-mind people are known by outsiders as a kind of predator, but not widely seen or understood.

The M.C. starts out an adolescent street girl. She escapes from a dangerous situation in the desert, realizing in the process that she's one of the lucky few who are fertile, that she has paranormal gifts, and is therefore doubly attractive to predators. She keeps it to herself for a few years. The predators show up again, and she has to tell her mentor and fellow con artist. They do street-level research about the predators, and travel to the desert to try and free M.C. from her problem.

The primary antagonist is an adult woman living in an abandoned mine shaft. She decides that her mission is to absorb as many souls as possible, and then use her telekinesis to destroy the fifth world with earthquakes as predicted in Aztec mythology. With practice and control over both her ability and that of the merged entity, this may become reality. The mega-mind people eventually discover her and choose her for their leader and primary vessel.

This is the half of the plot and characters that have come to me so far. What do you think?
 

You don't explain what the special abilities are, though I would guess that they are mind skills that allow the predators to prey on others. Nor are you very clear about the nature or motivations of the predators. Are the predators mega-minds themselves or mega-mind controllers, and therefore, still individual personalities?

You also don't explain why being preyed upon would kill those who aren't fertile adult women, insane, or gifted, and why that would keep predators from preying upon them anyway. It sounds to me as if your primary antagonist has no problem with the idea of killing, so why not just go out and absorb whomever, and those who are fertile adult women, insane, or gifted will survive, and who cares about the others?

Also, you need to explain what you mean by the MC's paranormal gifts. Are they the same gifts as the predators' gifts? Is that how she knows that they are hunting her? Is that how she is able to avoid being found? (Is the dangerous situation you mentioned one involving a predator? Did the predator tell her the things you say she realizes, or did she figure them out some other way?)

Further, is the primary antagonist fertile? Is she Aztec? (I found the mention of Aztec mythology confusing because I don't associate Aztec mythology with third world desert country. <shrug> ) Is she the predator the MC managed to escape from in the initial dangerous situation? What is the fifth world? What is the merged entity (the mega-mind?)? It doesn't sound that way from what you've said, so that's also confusing.

I suspect that you need to do some more thinking on this, and I hope my questions have helped.

That said, I'd recommend that your story start with the MC in the dangerous situation, but don't have her wait a few years. Why would the predators let her hide if all they needed was to sniff her out? Have her and her mentor/fellow con artist work together to figure out what's going on, and have them stay on the run from the predators.

From what you say about the primary antagonist not being part of the mega-mind at the beginning, have whichever one the MC encounters in the initial dangerous situation chase the MC into the reach of the other, and realize that it's a "from the frying pan into the fire" kind of thing where the MC is caught between the primary antagonist and the mega-mind.

Then, I'd recommend that the MC manage to slip away while the primary antagonist and the mega-mind are discovering each other and combining, with the final terrible battle occurring when they come after the MC together.

Of course, a price will have to be paid for the MC to defeat this combined predator, and if you can figure out a way to have someone other than the MC's mentor/fellow con artist pay it that would be nice (and avoid being predictable).

The idea definitely has possibilites.

I hope that made sense.
 

See, in my story, the main baddie is this super-powerful demon that has the ability to compel people to do his bidding, run in excess of 300 kilometers an hour, et cetera. Only problem is, I don't know whether I should make him this human turned demon or to make him always having been a demon.
 

Ask yourself questions: why? why not? what could the character try next? what could go wrong? what could happen if the character does this? why would the character do that?

In the case of the demon, one thing you could ask yourself is which origin would make the demon more interesting as a character? Or which origin fits better with the character's motivations for the evil he does?

Also, why here? Why now? What has made the story you are telling happen to these characters at this place and time? How does that fit with the possible origins of the main baddie?
 

1. My vision of the city is that it is located in the Southwest of the U.S., where there is a large Hispanic population. Would it be too big a stretch for people have intermarried to the point that everyone is at least a little bit Aztec?

2. I agree about the sniffing predators--I thought originally that they would be unable to enter populated areas due to some phobia, probably one they'd absorbed from the insane people they'd been merging with. Then again, they could just be too darn sensitive to handle city smells. Would either of these work for you as a reader?

2. I was also thinking of having the use of these abilities be
addictive, like an endorphin rush, but bad for one's grasp on reality, like L.S.D. Too much of a cliche?

3. Does this sound short enough for a short story, or is it more of a novel (ha! bad pun!) idea?

1-- You'd need to explain, first of all, how the U.S. Southwest became a place with "third-world conditions," as you said in your initial post.

As for Hispanics = Aztec, there's the stretch. I don't think you could say that the current Mexican population has enough Aztec in its culture to make us believe your main antagonist even knows about Aztec mythology.

Come to think of it, I am wondering if you don't mean Mayan mythology because they are the ones with the calendar and the predictions. The Mayans are more in the south of Mexico and the Yucatan, not so much along the U.S. border, and I'm not sure the ones who come to the U.S. for economic reasons know much about their heritage either.

2--The way pheromones work, your predators could live right smack in the middle of New York City and not be too sensitive to other smells to find the people they're looking for. Humans use pheromones a lot already, whether we realize it or not, so I don't see why your predators need to be where it's sparsely populated. I guess what I might wonder about is how they know they are using pheromones (see the "whether we realize it or not" part above), and how your MC figures it out.

If they are super-sniffers, that's something else, and I wouldn't bring in the word "pheromone" at all. Super-sensitive people could be smelling other substances entirely: an ovulating egg in a fertile woman, chemical misfiring in a psychotic's brain, whatever it is in a gifted person that makes them gifted (three kinds of things they can detect with their noses).

2nd 2--Addictive when they smell prey, or when they absorb prey, or just when they use an ability? If using it makes them lose touch with reality, they might be dangerous in an irrational way, but they wouldn't be a serious threat in an organized way. Unless, I guess, you mean something like bipolar where they are brilliant while using the abilities and then have down time when they have worn them out. That might be interesting.

Cliches are things that have already been done to death, and I'm not sure how this has been done much at all. Maybe I don't understand what you mean.

3--If you are having it take place over a period of a few years, then it should probably be a novel. Short stories should take place in small time frames, if at all possible. The longer your time frame, the more complicated your situation can become, and the longer the story needs to be to tell it.

I hope this helps.
 

I'll also be doing some more fact-checking so that I don't get the various scent/pheromone issues and Aztec mythologies wrong.

I don't know how you find the time, but I'm glad you're here to be our moderator and contributor to the forum.
 

I guess I find the time because I enjoy doing it so much.

Of course, the things that I don't enjoy as much tend to go begging. Oh, well.
 

Oh great Oracle of Plotting, hear my plea!

I need some guidance plotting short stories... Books are easier for me--I set up the characters, the world, maybe the main conflict, and let 'er rip. But short stories... I guess I have a hard time focusing the story, trying to include too many things. It's also a matter of my writing process. I start with a scene and start working through it--who is involved? Where are the characters? How did they get into this situation? How do they get out of it? I work my way out of it largely by feel. For short stories, that doesn't work so well, unless I want to write a book first, then whittle it down.

So, in trying to keep my focus, I try to zero in on a particular theme. But then I find myself falling back on old story lines. Not terrible, but then I end up with something that's just too familiar. Recently I wrote something that by the end of it, I realized I'd rewritten BladeRunner. With a bit of a twist, but maybe not enough. So I try to think about throwing in something (OSC's combining two or more story ideas) but then the piece just seems impossibly complicated and long to get into, I get confused, and I no longer know what the story is. Or I can only think of what the characters do, and feel like I lose the focus of the story.

Do you have any suggestions? Should I get more specific?
 

My first recommendation for help with short story writing is to read Rust Hills' WRITING IN GENERAL AND THE SHORT STORY IN PARTICULAR, though I think you've been around long enough to have already seen my recommendations of that book.

So, assuming you have already tried that, I will add that there are a couple of rules of thumb you can use to work out short story ideas. The first is that according to some theories, a short story is supposed to be about the SINGLE (this will be important later) most crucial event in the main character's life: the Turning Point, the Epiphany, the Road Less Taken, or however you want to think about it.

The second is that according to some theories (maybe the same ones, maybe others, maybe overlapping), short stories need to focus on UNITY (or one, or singleness). The idea here is that you stick as much as possible to one character, one place, one time, one scene, one problem, one effort to deal with that problem, one result, and so on. (But not just one idea, though, because even short stories need at least two ideas working together--in unity, of course.)

Now I realize that short stories are published all the time that don't follow those rules of thumb, but they may be helpful for someone who is trying to move from writing novels to writing short stories.

So, if you want me to be more specific, you may need to be more specific yourself. I'm game.

And the only thing I ask for is dark chocolate.

I do remember that recommendation. Previously I was focused on novels so I think I overlooked it (and I've read a bunch of writing books). Thanks for bringing it up again. I'm tracking it down and will read it.

Thanks for your comments. I'll ruminate on this for a while.
 

<licking lips to be sure I didn't miss any of the dark chocolate>

Thanks!
 

What would it be like if the Ten Plague from Exodus had human carriers?

Why would someone in his late adult life suddenly take up traveling... to other worlds?

What would be the equivalent of an airport/train station in the distant future, where interplanetary travel is as common as air travel is nowadays?

What would it be like if you had an angel living inside you?

What if the voices in an "insane" person's head were really there? What if they really could speak to G-d, or a messenger from Him?

Why might someone go from trusting you entirely to hating you completely? What if this happened practically overnight?

[This message has been edited by EP Kaplan (edited April 30, 2008).]
 

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What if the voices in an "insane" person's head were really there? What if they really could speak to G-d, or a messenger from Him?

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Valis by Phillip K. Dick is based on this premise. It is really engaging as well.

quote:

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Why would someone in his late adult life suddenly take up traveling... to other worlds?

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What if say an older fellow and his twin brother were world travelers/adventurers. They used to climb Everest and hike the Gobi. Let's say the brother gets cancer and dies. This could rekindle memories and feelings in the surviving brother, and he could decide space travel could be an adventure his old bones could handle.

Just some thoughts.
 

Comments by Hatrackers other than myself and whoever posts a query are very welcome here, at least as far as I'm concerned.

EP Kaplan, thanks for the dark chocolate.

You have an interesting list of ideas, each of which could be the start of a story development.

You have some choices regarding your next steps with these.

You could try to see if you can put two of them together in the same story and make them work.

You could start asking yourself questions about them, such as the one recommended by James Blish: who suffers the most from the situation? There are also a few of OSC's recommended questions: why? and what does the main character try to do about it? and what could go wrong? Other questions might include what caused it? and how could a character use the situation? and where (in what kind of place) could such a thing happen?

You start with an idea and by asking questions you get your subconscious to help you turn that idea into the basis for a story. You need to add characters and settings and goals to your ideas (some of which can come by adding other ideas) in order to turn ideas into stories.

I hope this helps.
 

Your response to EP Kaplan's query brought up a comment problem for me. So in my situation, I've thought of characters and who might get hurt and why, and what they might do about it, but then my sense of meaning and theme (I think that's Damon Knight's take) is lost. He suggests not thinking about these things, but letting them emerge spontaneously from the story itself. And yet I feel like I've read a lot of story drafts that are confused--there's an interesting plot, but the story feels unsatisfying or incomplete because there's no meaning. So how to incorporate these?

The Rust Hills book seems to suggest almost the opposite approach: think of unity and theme; the story should fly for it like an arrow, no wasted words or concepts.

I find myself flipping between these two dichotomous approaches.
 

Writers need to write according to what they care about, and when they do, the theme should grow organically as they write the story. If an idea appeals to you, find characters "who might get hurt and why, and what they might do about it," but only write the story if it has meaning to you. That's how you let the theme "emerge spontaneously from the story itself."

I think Rust Hills is talking about finding meaning you care about and choosing characters and situations that will help you explore that meaning.

It can depend on the story, but it can also depend on the writer. I read Damon Knight's book long before I read Rust Hills' book, but Knight's book didn't "click" for me. What Hills had to say was what helped me with short stories.

Listen to the one whose advice works for you.
 

I'm trying to come up with ideas for a short story about competitive hurricane surfing.

Right now I've got the main character as the prodigal, shallow top rated surfer, let's call him Dirk. The plot involves a fellow competitor and his best friend (term used loosely), who has tried to persuade Dirk to live a more purposeful life, drowning in competition. Dirk then finally takes a look at his life and either turns it around or doesn't, I haven't decided yet.

There are a lot of details I need to hash out but that's the main part of what I have. It would have to be set in the future and the surfing perhaps require incredible skill and coordination to accomplish. My only real hitch right now is how to make the speculative element integral to the story. Right now it seems like I could write the story about just about anyone in the present time, take out my idea of surfing hurricanes in the future, and it'd be the same story. Maybe that's my problem; I just like the idea too much.

Thanks for any insight.
 

SF surfing... with hurricanes... Hmmm.
The first thing you'd want to do would be to address how you protect the competitors (in and out of actual competition), plus any officials, cameras, and spectators. And how one might get far out enough to actually catch a wave. Don't forget, as you're trying to paddle out, hurricane force winds and waves are going to be pushing against you.

Maybe the hurricanes aren't natural.

 

If it is the surfing hurricanes, you need to work out the details of how it is done, what kinds of skills are needed, how the equipment works, and so on and so on and so on. Because that is the speculative element that affects your characters, you need to make sure you understand it fully in order to make it believable as well as exciting to your readers. (Sort of the way JK Rowling worked out Quidditch so thoroughly and made readers wish they could really do it.)

If you can make it work, there are two things that may happen (either/or, or both at the same time): first, it will be so cool that your readers won't care that the rest of the story could have taken place in a modern setting, and/or second, as you figure out how it all works, you may discover aspects of the sport that will make it so the story really couldn't happen except in your futuristic setting.

You might want to start a topic in the Open Discussions on Writing area on just how someone might "surf" a hurricane. I would expect it might even involve riding the vortex of the winds somehow (a sort of sideways kind of thing where you climb into the sky?), more than the skimming over the roughness of the water.
 

I like dark chocolate from Holland, France, England, Belgium, Ecuador, Mozambique, Mexico, Jamaica, you name it.

I like it with raspberries (and other berries), ginger, red chili pepper flakes, orange, mint, and cheese (though not necessarily all at the same time).

There is this chocolate shop in Chicago called Vosges Haute Chocolat that combines the most amazingly wonderful things with chocolate (like olive oil or bacon), and I recommend it to anyone who loves chocolate and wants a memorable experience.

Wow!
 

The idea of surfing hurricanes is the one I like. The loss of his friend forcing him to reconsider his lifestyle, and the fear of not knowing if he could keep his performance consistent if he did, is the secondary idea. Maybe to increase that fear I could include that he's taking designer drugs that are undetectable in order to have the reflexes needed to succeed.

The surfing would take place in the middle of the ocean. Still working out the best way to get the competitors out there... As it stands I've got submarines rescuing the surfers after they go under and now that I think about it I could have a commercial submarine take spectators to the eye of the storm where they watch on cameras.
 

That gave me the idea of such an installer who, during a time of slow business in his area, gets a call from someone a few hours away to do some work at a house large enough that it'd take a few weeks to complete the job. I'd think the twist would be there's something unnatural about the guy's customer and the story be about his attempt to find out exactly what it is.
 

See if you can think of at least one other idea to add to that, something totally unrelated maybe. (Go through your idea list--you do keep one, right?--and see what rings your chimes.)

Edited to add: I had a story I wanted to write for quite a while, one from my family history that I had added a twist to in my plan (so there were two ideas already). It wasn't until I heard that an editor was looking for stories about magic and music, that I added that as the third idea, and I wrote it up as a novelette (12,500 words) in a day and a half.

So what I'm saying is that sometimes, once you add the right idea(s), the story can almost write itself.

[This message has been edited by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (edited May 10, 2008).]
 

First one is the customer is a vampire or some other immortal being who was diagnosed with a terminal illness, though I'm not sure that would prevent him from still taking part in human society. As I was brainstorming I thought that could be a good reason for him to never leave his house.

Second one is he's a Buddhist wizard who gave up magic because he regarded it as unnatural. He doesn't leave his estate, but the rain starts interfering with his gardening, so he needs to install gutters.

Can't decide which one I like more.
 

If that doesn't seem to be working for you, then go back and ask yourself questions about your protagonist (look up a personality quiz or character development questions--there should be plenty of them online--and ask some of those questions) until you feel you really know the guy and what his biggest fears are (those are always good to attack a character on in a story).

Look over what else has been posted in this topic as well. Some of the other stuff here may give you ideas.
 

Then there was the question of why such a facility might exist. Then it occurred to me: "What if the JFK assassination was linked to witchcraft?"
My immediate thought was the WWII internment camps following Pearl Harbor.
I was thinking of special cells, non technological, but sort of "counter-magic". Well, there I have my setting. Not sure what I should do with it.
 

You'd also have to figure out what kind of legal system would deal with magic--is magic illegal across the board, or are only certain kinds of magic allowed, or magic done by certain (registered, maybe?) people? How are the criminals caught, and who catches them? Is there a possibility for some end-justifies-the-means dilemmas here (always nice to create internal conflict)?

Once you've got details like that figured out, you need to come up with a character who is unhappy in one way or another about the whole situation and therefore wants to change something. And you have a pile of possibilities there:

someone unjustly imprisoned (a first idea, and therefore one everyone would think of--OSC recommends tossing first ideas)

someone who cares about someone unjustly imprisoned (see above)

someone justly imprisoned who has found out about a plan that is so much worse than anything he did to deserve imprisonment that he hopes to work out some kind of deal to prevent it from happening and thereby get out of prison (second idea, OSC says toss them, too)

someone justly imprisoned who likes being imprisoned (maybe he fears his magic?) but finds out a plan that he can't in good conscience let happen, but he'll have to get out of prison to stop it (third idea, better, especially if he can't convince anyone to believe him about the plan so he has to deal with the bad guys alone--nah, that's more first-idea-ish)

someone who has a plan but needs someone who is in prison to help execute it (uh, now we're back to first or second ideas, I think)

I'm not going to suggest any more ideas. I only posted these to help you get past them.

Work out your magic and your legal system, and you may find a character developing in your mind as you do that.

You may also think of elaborations on my above "ideas" that will take them past first and second idea status.

Go for it.
 

[This message has been edited by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (edited May 25, 2008).]
 

In my story, there are two different worlds that were and are still partially interconnected. One is the ordinary mundane world that we live in, and the other is an extraordianary world, also known as the mythological city of Atlantis.

There is magic in Atlantis, but I don't know whether to use trigger words to activate certain spells, sheer force of will to sort of mold the magic as the caster wishes it, or a combination of both.

Any advice on which to use and how to use it?
 

So, if doing magic means force of will, then would only strong-willed (stubborn, determined, focussed, obsessed?) people be able to do magic? (Sort of like in the Harry Potter books when Bellatrix told Harry that he had to really mean it in order to do a cruciatis (or however it's spelled) curse.)

In that case, some questions you might want to consider about your magic system might be:

Would it be possible for someone to stop a spell by distracting the spellcaster?

Would a spell backfire (or go wrong in some other way) if the spellcaster does not concentrate properly?

How hard would it be to develop the willpower necessary?

Would a spellcaster be able to improve by improving willpower, and, conversely, if something happened to the spellcaster to make him or her not care any more, would the magic ability be lost?

And if trigger words are necessary instead, is pronunciation crucial?

If just saying a word causes magic to happen, how does one spellcaster tell another what word to use without having the magic happen (or could you do some fun things with the problems this might cause)?

How many words are required (long "spells")?

Can the words be read or do they need to be memorized?

What happens if the spellcaster gets one word wrong in a long spell?

If a spell is only one word, does the number of spells available depend on how many words the spellcaster can learn?

If they are long spells, can you learn just one long spell and insert crucial words to achieve different results?

That sort of thing.

You could combine words and will by having the words help with the force of will (maybe by having the spellcaster repeat them until willpower is built up enough--which would avoid the problem with saying the word and making magic happen), and as a spellcaster gets better at the willpower part, the words aren't as important (or don't need to be spoken and can just be thought, or aren't needed at all).

The thing is, this kind of approach is (as I mentioned above) similar to what JK Rowling did in her Harry Potter books, so I'd strongly recommend that you add something to make your magic different. I'd suggest adding some other kind of cost.

Maybe a trigger word can only be used once, and then the spellcaster has to learn a different way to cast the spell next time.

Maybe a lot of energy is used up in the force of will, so that the spellcaster has to recuperate physically afterwards (the bigger the spell, the longer the recuperation time, with, perhaps, the risk that a really big spell could kill the spellcaster?)

The recuperation could involve needing to eat or the spellcaster could become ill or starve to death quickly, or needing to drink water (or some kind of sports drink--your people from this world could bring them with them and be considered great wizard helpers that way) because the spellcaster becomes dehydrated and could die of thirst.

And so on. Try to come up with ideas beyond your first thoughts so that they won't be something anyone could come up with. (Also from OSC--throw out your first or second ideas.)

I hope this helps.
 

quote:

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In my story, there are two different worlds that were and are still partially interconnected. One is the ordinary mundane world that we live in, and the other is an extraordianary world, also known as the mythological city of Atlantis.

There is magic in Atlantis, but I don't know whether to use trigger words to activate certain spells, sheer force of will to sort of mold the magic as the caster wishes it, or a combination of both.

Any advice on which to use and how to use it?

---

It actually sounds like there's two questions here, whose answers are probably related. One, how to activate Atlantean magic. Two, how is magic affected by crossing the divide between worlds?

I think whatever your trigger, it has to be consistent with the sociological balance between two worlds that are still connected. If there's any kind of traffic across the divide, information and technology (meaning magic, here) is going to spread. So if it takes only force of will to activate Atlantean magic, there needs to be a good explanation why the same force of will used on Earth won't have the same effects. (Or maybe it will....) If there are trigger words, there needs to be an explanation for why speaking the same words on Earth doesn't work.

So I think you need to craft your activation trigger somehow around the divide. Maybe there are spirits in the ancient land, ones that have long since vanished from Earth, and words spoken in their Old Language calls them to grant the speaker magical power. Maybe there's something in the Atlantean diet or atmosphere that strengthens the power of natives' minds, allowing them to bend the fabric of reality in a way that Earth natives couldn't. You get the idea.
 

quote:

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If you start with characters, you ask yourself first of all, what does the character want? Why doesn't he/she have what he/she wants? What does the character do about getting it?

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That they want to be back together is practically a "given" (meaning, of course they do!), so you need to figure out what else they want. Another "given" is that Mellisa is going to want to protect her unborn child, so you still need something else for her to want.

These other motivations are the ones that will drive what is known as your "external plot" while the "given" motivations will drive the "internal plot" for each of your characters. And you can certainly have the story alternate between their points of view as things proceed.

Figure out the details of their life before their country is conquered (so you know what they are used to and what they expect from life), and figure out the details of life under the Authoritarian Regime (what are the new rules and the punishments for not obeying? what is the cost? what can they do about it?).

The idea of having them be in separate cells of the Resistance is a good one. You will beed to figure out what the others in each cell are like, and you may want to consider whether to have someone in each of their cells tries to develop a "relationship" with them, and how they respond to that--let the reader wonder if they will be true to their possibly lost love, and so on.

Have each of their cells working on different "projects" to undermine the conquerors (read about the Resistance in France during WWII for ideas), and also figure out how they will eventually run into each other, and whether they will even recognize each other (and whether or not it will be before or after the baby is born).

There are a lot of things to think about, and the ones I've suggested don't even get to the "what do they try?" and "what could go wrong?" questions that you will need to consider once you figure out the rest of it.

You can either just start writing, and work all of this out as you go, or you can spend time before you write to work it all out, or you can do both--write, then figure something out, then write that part. You don't have to write this story in the order in which it will be read. You can write whatever you figure out, the ending perhaps, long before you write some other part, and then smooth it all out in the rewrite.

I hope this helps you.

Feel free to discuss your progress with me, if you like.
 

If you haven't read about OSC's four story types, I'd recommend getting his two writing books, CHARACTER AND VIEWPOINT and HOW TO WRITE SCIENCE FICTION AND FANTASY and read what he has to say about M.I.C.E.
 

quote:

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Where would I find those books? Do you think I could get them cheap?

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You can get them both at Amazon. New copies are $10.19 for each, plus postage and handling, or you can check out the used copies link for even less money.

Just follow these links:

Characters and Viewpoint

How to Write Science Fiction and Fantasy

It all comes back to the characters, though, doesn't it? We are facinated by things that take place on a broad scale, such as events happening to the human population -- (Buggers attacking or the kick off of an armageddon countdown)-- or on a political landscape --(great wars and conquests) -- or on an intergalactic scale -- (uhm, do I have to give an example on an OSC site?) -- but only as they relate to individuals. All plots have to go back to the person. Readers have to know that person so they can experience what they are experiencing. That's how a reader gets hooked. If they can relate to the person, they live their lives, and so they have to know what happens to them, because, in a way, its happening to the reader, too.

... that's just my thoughts on that subject...

Maybe because I'm a control freak, but I tend to be drawn to the stories where average, good-enough Joe gets choas dumped unfairly on his shoulders and has to work through it. I like solutions and you can't have a solution without a problem.

Both in reading and writing, I need a character that is realistic. If the character is going to have super-powers, the super powers have to be something simple at root, but fantastic once explained. So, using enough philosophy and facts, a real super-hero is created.

Build the plot from the person. Build the person from the people you see around you.

The woman who talks on her cell phone even when she has nothing to say. The kid at the mall whose pants are down at mid-butt level and is drawing tattoos with permanant marker in the food court. The father who has a hard time talking to his daughters. The mother who won't let her children do chores because she's so OCD that nobody can do anything in the house right. The homeschooler. The mailman. The embezzler. The volunteer.

Once you have the person and you can see through their eyes, you can find the event that will make your story. I can relate to the father -- because I'm married to that man -- so I know what I'd have to do to make this story. Determine the greatest fear of all fathers everywhere: being the reason for his daughter's pain.

Greg Alson is a reporter for the local, small town papers. But Greg has a gift. He's always had a gift. He doesn't just know news, he knows things that are about to happen. Not much advance notice, but enough to know he has a secret that has to be kept. He knows that if someone finds out, he may be taken away. And that CAN'T happen. Because who would raise the girls? Greg has two teenage daughters. One is thirteen and the other eighteen. The eighteen year old has just begun college when she is kidnapped. Greg discovers that someone does know about his secret, only they have it all wrong. They think he can control things, that he can change things. The kidnapper blames Greg for something that has happened to his sister, (if you want to get a couple of extra coincidences, she can be the same age as Greg's daughter). Now Greg has to figure out how to get to his older daughter... Whatever he decides to do, he starts to do it and halfway through, he has one of his mini-precognitions, about his other daughter. (Having to chose between them, that would suck) And knowing me, I'd make it complicated, so that close to the end, the eldest daughter reveals that she, too, has a bit of hereditory precog in her. So, she sees the father's deliema, and takes things into her own hand.

I always incorporate tragedy into my stories. In other words, someone's gonna die. And the reader won't like it. But as a reader, I hate how almost everyone who I don't want to die, somehow miraculously survives. For me, its like, "Okay, I believed you up until this point, but that's so unrealistic, I can't buy the rest of the story either." So, I make a world that is real and consequences that are real. And every point of view is taken, including completely irrelevant characters who only have one scene. Even when/if the bad guy gets it, you can relate to him.

That's how I make my people and build plots. I very rarely use the plot to make the people.
 

So great, in fact, that I would like to ask you to create a topic, maybe call it "Starting with Characters," in the Open Discussion on Writing area and repost this there.

More people are likely to see it, and it would be a great starting point for an interesting discussion.
 

M
 

http://www.hatrack.com/forums/writers/forum/Forum1/HTML/005042.html

Please feel free to join in.
 

I do start with 'What If', but it is for the world.

My present writing obsession started life as:

The World.
What if Lilith was the first woman?

Strangely this fits both a fantasy scenario and a hard SF one. Written in different ways of course.
Using the Judeo-Christian / Pagan legends of Lilith, I have a springboard into magical creatures.
Using the research done on Mitochondrial DNA, and the haplogroups, hard SF begins to emerge.

What if angels did exist, and slept with humans, what would the nephilim be like?
If angels could be cast out of heaven, how would it change them?
How would the children of the fallen ones be different from the nephilim?
Did these ideas overlap with the Celtic Mythos that I was raised with?
What if the Ancient Egyptians were right, and the soul was made up of two parts?

Well that started it all. After 3 months of work on re-writing history, and research into relevent myths and legends, I was finally ready to move on.

My plot, or what passes as plot around here.

"Whoever battles monsters should take care not to become a monster too, for if you stare long enough into the Abyss, the Abyss stares also into you." Friedrich Nietzsche, Beyond Good and Evil.

A seven year pact with the devil.

A serial killer.

The exploration of 'free will'

Yes that is all the plotting I do, honest, it just slotted straight into my world. No-one believes me when I say that my stories are character and world driven. The story just happens.

Genre: Dark Fantasy with a heavy Crime element. Modern world modified.
Bonus: Short story idea for Hard SF.
 

The trick is to figure out what works for you as a writer for the story you are working on. If it works on the next story, you've got a head start. If it doesn't (and it may not), you have to figure that out for the next story, too.

I appreciate having people discuss the different ways they've found to get started on a story, because it helps others realize that there really isn't just One Right Way to Write.

So, thanks for your description of your process on this story.
 

~Christian
 

I've been reading thru many of the topics here (most recently this one), trying to understand where the novel fixation came from and what to do with it.

here is what I've got so far.

First, as for what to do with it, write it of course.

second, as for where it came from. I'm starting to think it is a combination of what if, event driven and character based.

initially It was character based (on myself), starting out by looking for fantasy world to live in where I got what I wanted because It sure wasn't happening here, at the time I was unemployed with bleak prospects (It was during the tech crash, and I'm a computer programmer by trade).

Then I started asking what if questions:

What if an ancient mythological society (I have a specific one in mind) wasn't just myth, but an ancient people who at one time ruled this entire planet (and more)...

What if they were caught up in an interstellar war that resulted in the planet being destroyed by massive earthquakes, volcanoes, floods and the like...

What if we are the descendants of survivors, and simply don't remember any or the pre-holocaust world which to us is nothing but mythological, but there are also survivors who escaped into space and other worlds who remember everything and have returned building hidden cities among us...

What if their war was about to comeback and haunt them, and us...

What if the future rested one man (The character I initially started with, an average Joe who has access to dormant characteristic that came from his ancient ancestors) and one woman (a modern member of the advanced (not so mythological) race), one from each group who must come together and combine to produce the answer to survival of both ...

My problem now is developing realistic challenges to help my protagonist develop into the hero he needs to be.

Is this normal for SF writers, or am I flying around out here in lalaland?

Hope I'm in the right place.

 

You could also post in the Fragments and Feedback for Novels, because you've got the start of a synopsis there. Repost what you've posted here in that area and ask for brainstorming.

Here, all I can really do is offer you some questions to ask yourself, such as "what do each of your main characters really want?" and "what do each of your main characters do to try to get it?" and a particular favorite, recommended by OSC himself, "what goes wrong when he or she tries?" followed by "what does he or she try next?" or "what does he or she do about what went wrong?" (repeat the last ones as many times as you want).

You can do some brainstorming on your own with those questions.

I hope that helps.
 

I'm going to try and start with a setting and then see who is the most affected by this type of setting.

The situation is a generational ship, I got the idea from OSC's book on writing science fiction. On this ship there are many people who live and die as the ship looks for a planet in which to build a colony.
My question is who do I use for this type of setting?
-Do I start with a teenager who is restless and feels confined in the ship (which is rather big)?
-What about a single guy who feels like there is nothing he can do to amount to anything because of the place in which he lives?
-What about a scientist who realizes that the ship is running out of resources and if they don't find a planet soon they'll all die?
-Or how about the captain who was once great and well known, belittled to shuttling around a can filled with insignificant people and he wants to know why such an assignment that seemed big is really stupid (to him)? I'm beginning to see what you mean by how it comes down to character Kathleen.
 

James Blish said the story should be about the person who suffers the most from the situation (perhaps because that's the person who is most likely to be willing to struggle the hardest to do something about it).

I would say to pick the story and character that appeals to you the most--the one you're most excited about (the one that has grabbed hold of your brain and won't let go--and if you don't have one like that, keep thinking of other characters on that ship that you could write about until you do).

There is also the possibility of writing all of the stories (make it a story collection of sorts, and maybe call it something like "The Generation Ship Chronicles"). Have an over-arching story line and give each of the characters their own short story that tells their part of it. That way, you may be able to create a synergism (the whole thing is more than just adding the parts/stories together), and that could be way cool.

Also, with the short-story-for-each-character approach, you can see about selling the stories to one of the magazines, and then collecting them into what is often called a "fix-up novel" (which is a collection of short stories that tell a novel-length story when published together). So you get a double-whammy out of each story.

Anyway, good luck with it. It will be interesting to see what you come up with.
 

[This message has been edited by JackalOsiris (edited May 25, 2010).]
 

F. M. Busby also wrote about such ideas in his Rissa Kergulen and Bran Tregare series.
 

So that’s the basis I came up with, then I wondered what it would be like for a kid with this "gift" growing up and knowing that his word could decide someone’s fate. Now I've created a moral dilemma with a twelve year old that shouldn't be asked to make those kinds of decisions. Does he tell what he sees or does he lie?

It just started with the numbers and flowed from there I didn't even realize I was putting the plot together until I had written about a 1k words. Now I'm stuck for the moment with the character realizing how his numbers, which he loves to see, are really being used.

[This message has been edited by JHam (edited May 25, 2011).]
 

You may need to bring in some other ideas, especially if you feel stuck. What can you throw in there that might be totally unrelated, and how can you make it relate to what you've already got?

By the way, I'd recommend that you do a little research on a thing called "synesthesia." Maybe by starting with wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synesthesia

You may be surprised to see that there are actually people who have this "talent," though your idea on how it might be used is definitely different.