Hatrack River Writers Workshop: How much patience?

This is topic How much patience? in forum Discussing Published Hooks & Books at Hatrack River Writers Workshop.

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Posted by Lorien (Member # 2037) on :

So, there is much debate on how to "hook" readers, and on how patient readers will be. I recall some kind of stastic where short stories get 1 paragraph and books get 3. How patient are you?

Does this sentence hook you?

quote:
The man in black fled across the desert, and the gunslinger followed.
The Gunslinger, Stephen King

For me, it did, but then, um, I think it was followed by about 2 chapters that could be summed up in that one sentence. By the end of the book, I had more questions than answers and I was angry that I wasn't given a chance to figure anything out or appreciate what happened in some kind of context in the gunslinger's world. Then I read the forward. In it King claims that when he came back and read The Gunslinger himself, he didn't like it. Alright, alright, so, I decided to read book 2. And, now I can't devour them fast enough. Why, I don't know. I find the imagry grotesque, I flip flop between admitting grudging respect and being disapointed in the characters, but I want to read on.

Anyway, that is beside the point. The point is, it took until book 2 to hook me. How patient is too patient?

Posted by Christine (Member # 1646) on :

I read that first book and to be honest, I found it to be slow, confusing, and difficult to get through. Many of my friends and my husband love the series and tell me I need to read book two, that the series just starts out slow, but even for established writers like King I tend to think that they can't abandon the several pages to hook for a novel. A whole book seems a little out of line and while I may go ahead and grab book two because everyone says I should, it's not going to be for a while.

Posted by Keeley (Member # 2088) on :

I read that book as well, and I almost put it down at a number of places (especially the scene where the gunslinger is with the old woman...nuff said). The entire series is crude, even for S. King.

I guess my patience depends on the author. If the author hasn't let me down before then I'll be willing to hang in there for an incredibly long time. I love The Shining, Carrie, and...well, it's better to say I like a lot of King's works. I managed to get through the first three books in the Dark Tower series, but the fourth had changed so much in tone from the first ones that it was hard to get back into the story. I ended up giving up.

I gave up on Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series when I read the third book and found he was still using the "he thought he defeated Shaitan but he really didn't" ending. Sad. I was really beginning to like the characters.

I'm less forgiving with an author I haven't read before. Dragon's Winter by Elizabeth A. Lynn had an interesting summary in the book jacket, but when I realized the dialogue was forced, the characters were unbelievable and the author was creating what felt like a different world within her world with brand-new characters and storyline just when I felt the previous one was starting to interest me, I put it down.

I'm also finding that the more I read, the less patience I have as a reader. That's one of the good things about writing. It keeps you humble.

Oh, and that line you quoted, Lorien, really sucks me in. The conflict is contained right there, simple and elegant. Unlike the rest of the series.

Edited to add numbers: I give a novel one or two chapters. If the chapters are short, 20 pages. Short stories, one paragraph.

[This message has been edited by Keeley (edited October 12, 2004).]

Posted by xarius (Member # 2168) on :

I read the first few chapters of The Gunslinger and had to put it down, which I rarely do. I haven't been able to make myself pick it back up. That disappointed me because I do like Stephen King. I have found, however, that a few of his books are like that, at least for me. I couldn't read The Talisman or Tommyknockers either. My level of paitence with a novel is about three chapters. With a short story, I will put it down in about three paragraphs if it doesn't grab my interest.

Posted by Magic Beans (Member # 2183) on :

Here's an opening line that would probably get ripped apart on this forum:

quote:
Mr. and Mrs. Masterson, of ninety-three, Barre Street, were proud to say that they were perfectly normal, thank you very much.

Does it hook you? Does it say much? It's the opening line to Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone, but with the names and address changed.

It isn't until you get to first sentence of the third paragraph (just after the 13-line mark, BTW) that the hook gets you:

quote:
The Dursleys had everything they wanted, but they also had a secret, and their greatest fear was that somebody would discover it.

Now, why wasn't that in the first sentence? Who cares that Mr. Dursely works for Grunnings? After that sentence about the secret, more exposition! Talk about telling and not showing! Yet, before too long, most of us have completely fallen in love with Harry's world and we feel as if we are there (adverbitis notwithstanding). There is an unmistakable quality of charm to the voice of the narrator that attracts. Really, the opening of the movie was better.

By its very starkness, the opening statement of fact from The Gunslinger tells us almost immediately that this is a tale of archetypal forces. It's big. It sets a tone, which can be extremely important (look at William Gibson... oozes with atmosphere).

How about this one?

quote:
When Mr. Jonathon Masey of Starksboro announced that he would shortly be celebrating his eleventy-first birthday with a party of special magnificence, there was much talk and excitement in Montpelier.

I know, I know, "eleventy-first" gives it away. I thought about disguising it to see how good of a hook it was (not very), but it's one of the things that piques your curiosity and makes you read further. But is it a great first line? How much patience do you need to get to anything good? What follows if page upon page of boring exposition on hobbits! Get on with it! And yet, it's LOTR, for cryin' out loud.

First lines aren't everything.

[This message has been edited by Magic Beans (edited October 11, 2004).]

Posted by Christine (Member # 1646) on :

Actually, Magic Beans, if you go through our history you'd see that the first line of Harry Potter has already been used and that most people were hooked by it. (You will also find that no opening works for everyone.) Further, novels get more than 13 lines to hook you. They get more like 3 pages. That is a weakness with this forum, well no, with copyright law, really, because we can't post that much to analyze it. The 13 line is more for copyright then for hook, although for a short story it does hold roughly true.

And yes, that first sentence immediately hooked me into the Harry Potter series and I did not put it down until I had finished reading all 4 (at the time). It's so fun and clippy.

Oh, and one other thing I just thought of....rules for children/ YA books are different from that of adults. Telling is more ok, for some reason, as an example. In a series for ya's you often find a page or two of recape of who the characters are that you can frankly skip if you've read the rest of the series. It's all told, now shown, but for some reason it's ok.

[This message has been edited by Christine (edited October 12, 2004).]

Posted by Magic Beans (Member # 2183) on :

Christine, I agree with much of what you said. My bad for not searching older posts--sorry. I love Rowling's written voice. It's wonderful.

My point was that too much emphasis is often placed on first lines. When I'm trolling the fanasy/sci-fi shelves, I'll grab whatever looks promising and read the first several pages. As a writer, I'm mindful of the first line, but I'll need to read more before I decide to buy it or put it back. So I guess my limit is about three to five pages.

Posted by mikemunsil (Member # 2109) on :

/It was the opening line to Mervyn Peake's "Gormenghast" that really hooked me, although it completely escapes me at the moment. *blushes*

Posted by Lorien (Member # 2037) on :

Interesting that you find the series "crude", Keeley. That's not the word I would have chosen. I just thought the kind of unsettling, supressed, and well, just gross, sexual tone that permiates through the whole thing was just another part of that world. And, I never read anything by King before this. So, I don't know if that is part of his writing style.

So, it seems the first line has two purposes: 1) To set the tone, and 2) To hook you in. I guess the goal should be to do both.

For some reason, when I pick up a book and start reading, I very rarely do not finish it. Little Women and Sarum (latter by Edward Rutherford) are the two that come to mind offhand. I feel somehow obligated to read it now that I've started. Hmmm, I can't think of any books at the moment that start out slow and then really hook you at some point.

Posted by Silver3 (Member # 2174) on :

The opening line of the Gormenghast Trilogy?
It's something like
"Gormenghast, that is, the main massing of the original stone, taken by itself would have displayed a certain ponderous architectural quality were it possible to have ignored the circumfusion of those mean dwellings that swarmed like an epidemic around its outer walls."
I found it boring, to be honest, and a bit hard to read.

Posted by Robyn_Hood (Member # 2083) on :

quote:
Hmmm, I can't think of any books at the moment that start out slow and then really hook you at some point.

The Pioneers by James Fenimore Cooper. I read the first three books in the Leatherstocking Tales, and while the direct action of each book starts out slowly, I was always hooked into reading. With The Pioneers, I struggled to get through the first half of the book; I picked it up and put it down several times over the course of a few months. When things finally started moving, I finished it in a matter of days (or nights, I should say ).

I found that sort of interesting, because the first half of the book covers the action of a few days (took months to read) and the second half of the book covers the action of a few months (took days to read).

How much time do I usually give a book? It all depends. If it's an author I usually enjoy reading, I'll try to keep reading (even if it takes forever). I also tend to give classics a better chance than modern lit; if the book has supposedly been popular for more than a hundred years, there is probably a good reason.

Posted by wetwilly (Member # 1818) on :

"Crime and Punishment". Very slow to start off, but one of the most interesting books I've ever read.

I'm with Magic Beans. (Man, that's a wierd sentence to say.) I think opening hooks are very overrated. I, for one, will give a novel a very long time to grab me. I might get halfway through the book beore I decide I really just don't like it, and then I might finish it anyway.

As for short stories, I almost never start one without finishing it. Drop it after one paragraph? Come on, how much time to I really need to invest in finishing it? It would be a shame to pass up a great story or an opportunity to learn something about writing just because I got ten lines into it and wasn't hooked yet.

Give me a good story, and I'll like it, whether the hook is in the first paragraph or fifty pages in.

Posted by cicerocat (Member # 2138) on :

Wet willy wrote:

quote:
I think opening hooks are very overrated.

and

quote:
It would be a shame to pass up a great story or an opportunity to learn something about writing just because I got ten lines into it and wasn't hooked yet.

On another forum we were discussing the emphasis put on the opening line (for writers, not as readers). One poster basically said, it's not really for the reader in a store that we make the opening line the best we can, it's for the editor/agent. And I agree, I think all this emphasis on opening lines are to make the story or novel stand out to the editor, to make it stand out from the 100s of other submissions that he has to read that day.

Cya,
CC

Posted by Robyn_Hood (Member # 2083) on :

That's a good point C.C.

I think a lot plays into how important a hook is and how much time I give it. If I'm out shopping for a book, first I look for a cover and title that grab me, then I'll read the back, and then I'll start flipping through the book. In this case, a strong opening hook is important.

However, if someone says, "Hey, you should read this book, because...", I don't worry about getting right away, because I assume there must be something worth reading in it if it was recommended.

Posted by Magic Beans (Member # 2183) on :

quote:
One poster basically said, it's not really for the reader in a store that we make the opening line the best we can, it's for the editor/agent.

That really sounds like it should be true, and my guess is that it is true, but not in the simplistic way implied (I am not saying any person is simplistic!). Any good editor would know there is much more to good writing than a hooky first line. A good editor also wouldn't need very much material to make a judgement. It's good writing they're looking for. Nothing would kill sales more than a horde of bad-mouthers who feel ripped off because a book didn't deliver on its initial promise. Good word-of-mouth sells more books than good marketing.

[This message has been edited by Magic Beans (edited October 14, 2004).]