Hatrack River Writers Workshop: May : The series

This is topic May : The series in forum Discussing Published Hooks & Books at Hatrack River Writers Workshop.

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Posted by Christine (Member # 1646) on :

I don't want to spend most of our time talking about the rest of the series, especially since I specifically said that for series we would only discuss the first book. But for those of us who have read all of them, I figure one topic dedicated to the series as a whole couldn't hurt. Besides, many of us are writing trilogies of our own. (or longer) So how did she do at serializing the books? For example, in general I have been pleased at the way each book is a story unto itself. Each comes to an end, and the next one begins.

Posted by TheoPhileo (Member # 1914) on :

Just one quick thought...

I had a really hard time buying how angry Harry was through the fifth book (or was it the fourth?). He hated the world! Rowling tried to explain it, but I just didn't think it was done well enough, especially after 2000 pages of him being such a lovable character.

Posted by Christine (Member # 1646) on :

Reading it the second time, it made a little more sense, but the first time I read it I thought it was quite strange. It didn't feel like Harry.

The fifth book was not as well done as the others. I don't know, maybe she had too much to live up to. She was trying to have Harry react to what happened at the end of the fourth book, to have it affect him, but I think she went over the top. He started yelling at all his friends and it kind of made me mad at him.

And the fifth book failed in one other area that the rest were very successful on...the ending. The fifth book felt much more like a middle of the series book, without much of a beginning and without much of an ending. Oh, she tried to play up him starting out at his aunt and uncle's and ending up there like every toher summer, but that didn't make for an ending the way it did in the last four books. Either that or I just don't want to wait another three years for number 6.

Posted by danquixote (Member # 1949) on :

Harry's anger bugged my mother-in-law, too, until she realized, "Hey, he's 16!" And, having raised four sixteen-year-olds herself, she suddenly felt like it made perfect sense.

I haven't read past book two - after my experience w/ The Wheel of Time I decided to wait until I'm sure HP is really ending (as I'm sure it will - Rowling seems to have the series very well thought out) before I invest completely in it.

Posted by Christine (Member # 1646) on :

I'm afraid there is no comparison between the wheel of time and harry potter. First of all, Harry Potter is not just one continuous story...they all are individual and come to an end. Even #5 did, just not quite as well as the first 4. Second, if you do feel the need to catch up on books 1-5 before 6 comes out, you can read them all in about two days. You will have no such luck with the wheel of time. And finally, the wheel of time will never end so long as people keep buying his books. Harry Potter (at least this series, who knows, she might do the college years or somesuch thing) will end with book 7.

Posted by TheoPhileo (Member # 1914) on :

I don't know how sure of that we are, at the rate the books have been growing. If she keeps adding, it seems she could split the years in half, and do what any successful series does, and take the money. That is, after all, what the publishers are in it for.

Posted by GZ (Member # 1374) on :

I really liked books 1-3. Book 4 was good. Book 5 I had some problems with, some of which have already been meantioned (The constant anger on Harry's part being a big one.) I also, with the return of Voldermort, had a hard time believing that everything just went back to normal. I mean, Voldermort is loose again! Before reading, I had anticipated the 5th book having a different formate than the first four just to account for that change, and it seemed forced to fit the summer, school, going back to Dursley's format. I also had a hard time dealing with the fact that, after so many times before, Harry got into trouble because he didn't seek out help. He should have known better by now, especially now that the stakes are higher.

Posted by teddyrux (Member # 1595) on :

I liked books 1-3. I liked book 4 until the ending. I was puzzled as to why she ended it like she did. I don't see why someone had to die. I felt like the first three were good individual books by themselves. Books four and five felt like a series that never finished the plot line in each story, the just plodded along until the end of school. It seems like she's trying to push the summer, school, summer concept to it's limits. I also feel that she's milking it. That said, I can't wait for 6.

Having never been 16, I can't relate to the anger he showed.

Rux
:}

Posted by Silver6 (Member # 1415) on :

Well, I for one have been sixteen, and I can't remember displaying that kind of anger. I felt it was a bit excessive, as if the author was bashing us over the head with 'He's a teenager, so he gets angsty and angry'.

Posted by danquixote (Member # 1949) on :

Christine,

I know, I know. Harry Potter is much, much more organized, and I mentioned I have an impression that Rowling is right on the ball in terms of planning the arc of her story.

All I meant w/ the Jordan series was that it made me extremely reluctant to invest a lot of time into a large series.

Another reason to put off reading HP - I'm not patient enough to read one book and wait a year or ??? for the next one to come out. It's agony waiting to find out what happened. I'd love to be able to take a week or two and read the entire story from start to finish.

All that said - I'm very eager to read the entire HP series, when the time is right.

Posted by Gwalchmai (Member # 1807) on :

I think the problem with the anger thing is partly down to the fact that we are in almost constant contact with Harry through his life from the beginning of book three, even through most of the holidays, and there is no real hint of the strong anger in his personality that he's suddenly feeling in book five. Yes, at the end of end of book four some big events happened, but his anger seems to come on from nowhere and it just doesn't seem like the Harry we've come to know through the previous four books.

[This message has been edited by Gwalchmai (edited April 28, 2004).]

Posted by Alias (Member # 1645) on :

I like the closure with every book, one-year standard, etc, structured patterns between books. That is good. As far as characters changing over time, I can buy that. People do change over time, especially over 7 years, and showing him/them growing within each year is a good thing.

However, I do not like a lot of Rowling's plot-devicing. Example, excluding the third book (which is the odd-one-out of the series) every book ends in some silly "duel" between Potter and Voldemort, in which Potter accidentally trumps him, again and again and again.

Also I do not believe the workings of how teh story will be put together is as sharp in her mind as she tried to make it sound. I honestly don't believe that Black was meant to leave the story the way he did, and if you think about it, his character's plot contribution is actually quite meaningless.

Magic: I have major issues with her magic, especially the time-turner crap. But I think I've brought this up before in detail, so I'll spare you all by simply stating: Her mileau doesn't hold to a constant and dependable set of rules, like it should--in my opinion.

But despite such qualms and many others, it is a fun, easy, likable serious that has addicted several people. And is encouraging kids to read.

Posted by Christine (Member # 1646) on :

Was anyone at all upset about Black's death in the 5th book? I haven't met anyone, although it was supposed to have been a big thing. She even advertised that a major character would die. By the end of the book I was thinking it would be Neville...and his death would have cerrtainly affected me more than Black's.

Harry didn't duel with Valdemort in the fifth book either, don't forget...Dumbledore did. Actually, I pictured the scene a little like Yoda in the second star wars movie that didn't exist except for that one scene.

Posted by Alias (Member # 1645) on :

Either way, Voldemort (whom you keep referring to as "Valdemort"-lol) fought and was beaten. Again. No surprises here.

Posted by Lord Darkstorm (Member # 1610) on :

I guess I must be the odd person here because I loved the 5th book. Imagine knowing someone is looking to kill you, and no one wants to believe you. Now I see self delusion all the time in people, how is it so different that in the HP world people would rather believe that Voldamort is gone than concern themselves with him being back? To think that Harry is nuts and is making it up is far easier than dealing with reality.

I think she could have brought on the anger a bit more progressivly, but the anger was to some degree justified. Maybe people just didn't want to see Harry as a real emotional person who can have faults and loose his cool. The first four books Harry seemed a more complacant, but at that time he only had to fear the possible return of Voldamort, but the fifth book he has to deal with the fact his enemy is alive. Now combine that with the fact that he is being kept in the dark "for his own good"...that would make me a bit angry too.

I think the fifth book was more of a transitional book, Harry needed to grow up fast. Now he has some real experiences that can justify him being something other than a "kid" all the time. The implication at the end of the fifth book is that Harry must kill Voldamort, or get killed himself. The little eleven year old from the first book would not be able to do it, but the Harry of the fifth book is now a little closer.

Just my thoughts...

LDS

Posted by Christine (Member # 1646) on :

I apologize in advance for any and all misspellings of names that will certainly occur...I did not read these books but listened to them, so I never actually knew how to spell Voldemort.

And I wouldn't say that I didn't like the fifth book. Actually, while the anger took me aback, I got it the second time I read it. I just wasn't prepared for it at first. You're rid, LDS, he needed to grow up fast. He had to take action rather than sit back and happen upon adventures. As it happened, this adventure was a bad idea but I don't blame Harry for not getting advice, I blame Dumbledore for not telling him the truth.

[This message has been edited by Christine (edited April 28, 2004).]

Posted by Gen (Member # 1868) on :

I also liked the fifth book a lot, LDS. It wasn't the same kind of read as the previous four, but I felt like it had a lot more there, and figuratively as well as literally.

It was definitely a middle book, though. It reminded me of Empire Strikes Back: undetermined middle, undetermined ending, but still some really neat stuff that had to happen. Would a series be better with sharply defined endings between books? I suspect that the preferred level of resolution at the end of a book in a series is something that varies for people, and I'm more in the let it be ambiguous camp. (I deleted the RJ WOT joke. I've never read WOT, and I'm being good.)

Posted by cvgurau (Member # 1345) on :

I liked the fifth book too, but I did think it was a little sub-par. She set a sort of standard for herself with the first four, and IMO, she failed to meet that standard with the fifth.

I, for one, was botherd by Black's death, but I guess I just read deeper into it. I mean, it was his only living relative! And besides, I liked Black as a character. Reading the third book (my favorite, I think), I couldn't help but doubt everyone's seeing Black as a mass-murderer. Don't know why. It just never clicked with me. I definetly never thought it'd be him who Rowling killed off.

Oh well. This is just another case of the writer jerking around with the main character's life for drama and for the hell of it. I do it all the time.

Now, if only my books could be as popular as hers.

Here's to hoping,
CVG

"You can't change the world, but you can make a dent."--DEATH TO SMOOCHIE

"To thine own self be true."--HAMLET

"Oh my god, they killed Kenny!"--SOUTH PARK

Posted by GZ (Member # 1374) on :

I wasn't all that affected by Black's death -- if he is really dead. I'm still questioning the shadow mirror business...

Anybody have any thoughts about the prophesy part brought up in 5? I sort of thought it was a bit strange to be coming up now, yet I'm intrigued by the whole Harry/Neville connection.

Posted by cvgurau (Member # 1345) on :

I liked the prophesy. It made sense. I'd been wondering for four books now why Voldemort was so infatuated with Harry, and why he'd attacked him in the first place, and I was satisfied with the way she handled it.

Posted by Christine (Member # 1646) on :

I was ok with the prophecy too, and since I usually think prophecies are a cop-out, that's saying something. But I've been suspecting ever since book 3 that something like this was true, well actually, even in book one there were hints, I just read books 1-3 so quickly that I hardly had time to stop and think about them at the time.

Posted by Alias (Member # 1645) on :

I think the 4th book was my favorite. Not so much the whole book but the dark feeling during the climax. When Cedric died combined with the new, darker, deeper, more dynamic plot twist was very likable, for me. However, the fifth just took that a hair too far. Black's death didn't seem important, unlike Cedric's which had been a genuine blow of shock,

Also I thought the neville/Harry connection was simply moronic.

Posted by Pyre Dynasty (Member # 1947) on :

I liked the fifth book, but it's not the best in the series. I liked three the best. I belive that the Harry being angry had to do with the connection between him and Voldy. I think Voldemort was angry at him and was shooting it through his little scar.
I'm quite sure she'll finish it, she wrote the final scene before she started, so it will end.
As for the Sirius Black death, it was a little anti-climactic for me. just boom he's dead. but I don't think he's really gone. Ever since the first mention of him in the first book I knew he was important.
But there is one thing that I have to mention that bugs me about her style, she writes each book as if you have not read the last. Does she really have to explain quidditch to people that have probably played games of it in their heads? I can understand it in other series that may be seperated but if there is a big fat five on the cover I expect it wants me to read the other four.

Posted by punahougirl84 (Member # 1731) on :

I very much enjoyed the series up until 5. 4 was more grown up, and more serious, but that was fine - I expected it to happen. I like the structure, which works for YA and for me. I like the differing stories that still relate, and the threads that run through them all.

I never thought about the time-travel thing with Hermione until someone here brought it up, and as I reread I'll pay attention, but I understand the issue now.

I do like a lot of detail that was added in 5 - well, all the books build up and add layers to be rediscovered later on - but we learn more and learn how much more there must be in 5.

HOWEVER... in 5:
- it is Harry's 'whineyness' I couldn't stand Ok, a great kid can change, but... - I've been teaching teens for a while, and I don't believe his angst - he's been dealing with Voldemort for a long time and this is nothing new. In my head I kept shouting at him to talk to someone, to an adult, to Dumbledore.
- I don't believe Harry's anger, but even more don't believe him not getting help - and not just with all his issues and confusion. There is no way a friend would not have leaked to McGonagall, or Hagrid, about the cutting. That was Torture, and evil, and I know the reasons given and don't believe them, and while the book doesn't have to set an example I would never, ever, give kids reason to believe such a thing should not be reported, and can't understand why, if Harry was too screwed up in his head to reason rationally, why his friends didn't. I had experiences with kids who cut themselves, and it always came out at somepoint, somehow. I think it could have been reported and the teacher still could have been kept and the resolutions kept intact - I think it could have been something powerful and in the end just killed it for me.
- Sirius' death was pointless - he didn't even take one of them with him when he passed through the veil - so I also believe he is coming back - wouldn't it be cool (though too much to expect and still respect the books) if there was some way he could bring Harry's parents back - you know, he had to fall through because they weren't killed but somehow banished to some other realm... ok, while he's at it he can bring back my mom too!

I don't have an issue with things getting darker and more evil and more challenging - Harry must prevail (though will hurt worse and suffer more to do so) as he is the hero. I really am curious as to how it will end and what Harry will become. I won't be in line anywhere for the books - I'll get them at Costco, no waiting, and for a discount! (we own the books in paperback and hardback, so I think I deserve a price break!)

Posted by Gwalchmai (Member # 1807) on :

Sirius' death did nothing for me either. We didn't really know much about him as a character except that he was Harry's uncle, had been wrongly imprisoned and then escaped from Azkhaban.

Another big problem for me was that because she had said a main character was going to die once I picked up the book and realised Sirius was going to have a larger part to play in it than he'd had in all the other books combined, it was obvious that it was going to be him. He had barely featured at all previously and we knew nothing about him personally and it was as if she suddenly realised she had to try to create some reader sympathy for his character except for what his death would mean to Harry.

That said though, the scene with the brain was quite possibly my most favourite part of the entire series. Hilarious.

[This message has been edited by Gwalchmai (edited April 29, 2004).]

Posted by Gen (Member # 1868) on :

quote:
I wasn't all that affected by Black's death -- if he is really dead. I'm still questioning the shadow mirror business...

Yeah, from an online fansite interview with JK Rowling, it seems like he may be back--

quote:
Cookie246122: Why did you kill Sirius? It made me very sad
JK Rowling replies -> I'm really, really sorry. I didn't want to do it, but there was a reason. If you think you can forgive me, keep reading, you'll find out. [I feel really guilty now].

Entire interview's available here.

Posted by Christine (Member # 1646) on :

I'm afraid that answer isn't straight enough for me to get that particular interpretation from it....that Serius is still alive and will come back. I wouldn't be surprised if he has a role in the future, I think in my case I just don't care. I don't find him to be that intresting a character. I did in book 3, which was my favorite book, but not since then. In book 4 his role was small and almost meaningless, and in book 5 it was shoved in your face and, in retrospect, that should have been a blaring clue that he would die. For some reason, I just don't sympathize with his character. So come back, don't come back, doesn't matter to me.

I have, at one point or another, wondered if his parents would somehow come back, or even if one of them was still alive and in hiding. I have dismissed this idea, but I have to be honest, Harry's parents deaths, which happened in the backstory, affected me more than Serius' did.

Posted by Gwalchmai (Member # 1807) on :

That answer seems a little vague to me. It seems to lean more towards an explanation will be given for his death. I remember reading several interviews and articles in newspapers about the time the death was leaked, that she was supposed to have been in tears after writing it and when her husband asked why, she told him she had just killed Sirius off. He then asked couldn't she just write him back in again and she said that no, she couldn't, he was dead.

[This message has been edited by Gwalchmai (edited April 30, 2004).]

Posted by Alias (Member # 1645) on :

Either way, I believe the point still stands that Sirius' character isn't plot-important. So, as a reader, I felt all the drama surrounding him was a waste. How he entered was merely to make plot for the third book, wasn't entirely useful in the 4th and in the 5th was horridly set aside and then killed, pointlessly.

Kudos J.K., Kudos.

Posted by Lullaby Lady (Member # 1840) on :

Here's what I think (and thought while I was reading it) about Harry's anger and "angst" in Book 5:

Voldemort had come back. There is still a connection between the two. Remember how Dumbledore would not look at Harry, and when he did, Harry felt like he wanted to attack DD? Also, throughout the book, Harry kept feeling V's emotions-- frustrations and triumphs. As soon as V. COMPLETELY returned back to his full power, (the back of Quirrell's head not being a place of true power) Harry's personality changed. I don't believe that simply seeing more "dark action," or becoming a teenager gave Harry a bad attitude, I think it was his connection with V. (Remember the vision of two snakes DD had, as well.)

As for the rest of 5, I LOVED it! Who can resist Fred's and George's practical jokes and products, followed by their triumphant exit?! And Umbridge is more fun to hate than any character yet! Tonks and Shacklebolt are awesome new characters, and Sirius is fine, but I love Lupin. I also loved seeing into Snape's troubled past.

"Hem,hem," ("Dolores, do you need a cough drop?")

~L.L.

[This message has been edited by Lullaby Lady (edited April 30, 2004).]

Posted by Christine (Member # 1646) on :

Lupin is my favorite adult in the entire series, save Dumbledore. I was pleased that he came back. And the triumphant exit of the twins was the best scene in the series to date.

Posted by GZ (Member # 1374) on :

Fred and George were simply magnificient in Book 5. By far my favorite part of the whole 5th book.

Posted by Alias (Member # 1645) on :

Agreed.

Posted by Lord Darkstorm (Member # 1610) on :

Maybe it is just me, but I think Sirus was trying to live up to Harry's expectations. Sirus wanted to be a father to Harry, but he was hoping for Harry's father instead. Sirus was given quite a bit of depth in the fifth book. Ok, I will admit his death was a bit of a relief. I was expecting her to nix Dubledor. The statement about her killing a major character didn't include Sirus in my mind. He is a minor character, I didn't include him in my theroetical possibilities.

As for Snape's past, I think she is setting something up. Harry was able to see a first hand look at his father in a way that justified Snape's hatred. I know it is a hard thing when you discover something about your parent(s) that you wished you never knew.

So I do like five simply because it expanded the characters, giving a new depth to the world. Maybe this change in scope was something JK hasn't quite mastered yet. So while the depth was greater, the story suffered a bit. The fifth book lost the fairy tail feel, and picked up a more serious one.

Fred and George were impressive.

LDS

Posted by AeroB1033 (Member # 1956) on :

Yes, the tone of the series is maturing with its characters, and that's not a bad thing, in my opinion. I thoroughly enjoyed Book 5, though Azkaban will always be my favorite.

As for Snape, I agree that he's going to play an important role in future events. Which is great, 'cause he's always been my favorite character, ever since we discovered that he was saving Harry's butt instead of trying to kill him, in Book 1.

Posted by cvgurau (Member # 1345) on :

Fred 'n' George were always two of my favorite characters, since all the way back in book 1, when they were passing through the stone.

"Fred, you next."
"I'm not Fred, I'm George. Honestly, woman, you all yourself our mother...?"
"Sorry, George, dear."
"Only joking, I am Fred."

It was hilarious in the book, but moreso in the movie. The actor did it perfectly.

Also, in book four:

"Who're you going with, then?" said Ron.
"Angelina," said Fred promptly, without a trace of embarrasment.
"What?"..."You've already asked her?"
"Good point," said Fred. He turned his head and called across the common room, "Oi! Angelina!"
Angelina...looked over at him..."What?"
"Want to come to the ball with me?"
Angelina gave Fred an appraising sort of look.
"All right, then," she said...
..."piece of cake." [said Fred].

Great stuff. Hilarious

Posted by Pyre Dynasty (Member # 1947) on :

"I suppose she thinks you don't forget your name. But we're not stupid -- we know we're called Gred and Forge."

Posted by Christine (Member # 1646) on :

I think I've got it. I think I understand why the last book did not grab me the way the otherss did...

In book one, we are surprised at the end to discover that Quirrel, not Snape, was the bad guy.

In book two, we are surprsied to find out that it is Ginny that is setting the basalisk loose on the school. (Although I figured out where the chamber of secrets was and the valdemort was Riddle...maybe someone was surprised by that.)

In book three, we are surprised to find out that Serius is the good guy, not the bad guy.

In book four, we are surprised to discover that Mad Eye MOody is actually Crouch, the supposedly dead son of Crouch Sr. and Valdemort's supporter.

In book 5...nothing. There was no revelation at the end. I knew perfectly well the entire time that the whole thing was a setup and that Harry was being an idiot, even if Dubledore maybe shoulda helped out by telling him was he needed occlumency for. I didn't know exactly what was in the department of mysteries but the discovery of a prophecy was no big surprise at all, i'd rather expected to see one since book one. There was no twist, no "Ooohhhh!" moment....nothing. Serius' death fell flat as well.

Posted by Pyre Dynasty (Member # 1947) on :

I think serius's death was meant to be that 'ohh' moment. plopped. I think the movie affected her, book five was the first one after the movie. Hopefully she'll bounce back for six and seven.

Posted by Lullaby Lady (Member # 1840) on :

I agree that there wasn't a "WOW!" moment in book 5-- I kept thinking that maybe Umbridge was a shape-changer like Tonks. and was really Beatrix Lestrange in disguise!

I was so disappointed when she turned out to be simply an infuriating, corrupt ministry official...

I had really hoped she would get more than just a centaur trampling!

~L.L.

Posted by Lord Darkstorm (Member # 1610) on :

Was I the only one who was wowed by the voldermort vs Dumbledore fight? That was incredible, Dumbledore knows how to fight.

Worked for me.

LDS

Posted by Gwalchmai (Member # 1807) on :

Yeah, kind of like Yoda in the last Star Wars film. You know they must be pretty powerful people because of the respect they got from everybody else but you only really see them as amicable old duffers who impart a bit of wisdom to the main characters here and there. Then suddenly they're pressed into action and BAM you're left looking on in awe.

Always makes me wonder though why they don't just set off one morning by themselves and sort everthing out by tea time so everone can live happily ever after.

[This message has been edited by Gwalchmai (edited May 18, 2004).]

Posted by Lullaby Lady (Member # 1840) on :

LDS,

That's true-- I did love the scene where Voldemort and Dumbledore finally go head-to-head. I guess I was missing the mystery solved and flow of information, we usually get from J.K.R. at the climax. HOWEVER, Dumbledore revealing the details of the prophesy, was a very satisfying truth serum... (Yes, I'll admit to being a "waffle!" )

Gee, Christine-- and you thought we'd be discussing Book One, right?

~L.L.

Posted by Christine (Member # 1646) on :

Nah, not on this one. Actually, I had a feeling we'd be discussing the rest of the series to varying degrees.

But yes, the fight scene was cool, but there was no mystery solved in the book. The prophecy was no real surprise.

Posted by Alias (Member # 1645) on :

Yeah the prophecy was extra-ordinarily, positively, outrageously anti-climatic.

I expected to learn something I hadn't already deduced by book 1.