Cross-World Fantasy Scifi Adventure, roughly 600 words thus far. This seems like more than 13 lines to me, but my browser showed the alphabet template took up 26(?!?) lines when I pasted it into a reply. I can cut it much shorter if it is not within the length set forth in the rules. Please forgive me if that happens to be the case.
I'm just dipping my toe in the water here. There's not much more to share, so a critical take on this opening is really all I'm after right now. I had started with a first person perspective, but realized that wouldn't work out so well. Currently trying for a third-person limited viewpoint. The character's name is more or less a placeholder. Brutally honest criticism is just fine with me. I want a good start, and am willing to earn it.
[ April 13, 2019, 09:17 PM: Message edited by: drew ]
Posted by Grumpy old guy (Member # 9922) on :
A little over thirteen lines. The thirteenth line ends with ". . .A small mercy she probably". The simple test is to paste the desired fragment in the 'Full Reply Form'. If you remove any blank lines, they don''t count toward the thirteen lines, this will tell you where the thirteen lines end.
Critique to follow once I've had time to think. My main criticism will be the length of your narrative distance--the narrative is to distant from what the character is actually experiencing.
Phil.
Posted by WarrenB (Member # 10927) on :
On the fragment length: this is 26 lines. The last full sentence in the first 13 lines ends with the words, "... while it still lasted."
Simple method: put your text into an A4 Word doc with standard margins (1 inch/2.54cm), and select 12pt Courier New as the font -- then count each line from the top, excluding blank lines. That'll give you an accurate 13 lines.
I am not great at commenting on first 13s (I'm sure others will offer MUCH more :-). However, I will try to come back to this and look again when I have a bit more time...
For now: it feels like you are finding a rhythm around line 22 -- that last paragraph (beginning, "As she gathered...") starts to interest me. Before that, I am distracted by some spelling (e.g. course/coarse) and grammar issues -- especially in the first paragraph.
I'd be happy to look at a first chapter sometime in the coming weeks if you'd like to do a crit exchange.
Posted by WarrenB (Member # 10927) on :
Oops -- simultaneous posting... Anyway, I believe both methods work, though Phil's depends a bit on which browser you're using. (I think it works with Windows browsers. Didn't work for me using Safari.)
Posted by Grumpy old guy (Member # 9922) on :
My browser is Chrome running on Linux.
Phil. I
Posted by drew (Member # 11149) on :
I cut it shorter to where WarrenB suggested, and fixed that spelling mistake. I tried using the template, and I see now how it's coming out wrong. I should be able to adhere to the rule now. Thanks. Posted by drew (Member # 11149) on :
I'm using Firefox on Windows 7. My mistake was not expanding the reply box to fully encompass the lines' widths, so each alphabet line took up two lines instead of one.
I'm off researching what narrative distance is. I don't think I've heard this term before. I have always assumed the third person narrator was just a disembodied voice of god describing the scene. This is very informative. The narrator can be thought of like a camera, with wide angle shots and zooms, close-ups and point of view shots.
I can see now that I am telling this in a cold and matter of fact way that doesn't serve the scene or the traumatic experience she is having. It's not that it's outside of her, but it's certainly not in the same headspace that she is in right here and now.
I'm going to go do a bit more studying and see if I can improve this scene to add the appropriate distance. I'll work on exploring more of her thoughts and feelings, and try to get uncomfortably close to her so the reader can better feel the character and understand her state of mind.
I think that's what's being said. Please, correct me if I'm mistaken.
As to the grammar, oh, I know. I believe English was my least understood class in grade school. Partly because I moved a lot back then and missed some things, and partially because I was more interested in drawing, math and science. I have much to learn.
Thanks for your input. I shall take every golden nugget to heart.
[ April 13, 2019, 04:54 AM: Message edited by: drew ]
Posted by Grumpy old guy (Member # 9922) on :
You're right on the money, Drew.
Phil.
Posted by MerlionEmrys (Member # 11024) on :
So let me preface this by saying I'm not really a big critiquer of first 13s, and I'm more expert on short stories than novels so what I say is probably best taken with a little grain of salt.
quote: closing the eye again
I like the use of a single eye rather than both-it's quirky and interesting.
quote: A silent wind caressed her face as weakly she rose
Now, I don't share the hatred some feel of any word ending in -ly, but I do find this construction a little off. At the least, I'd say "she rose weakly", or you could also do something like "she struggled to rise." You could even describe the specific feelings/symptoms that are making it difficult to rise. However, I think this fragment is already a bit heavy on descriptions of physical sensations and environment and light on information about her situation or identity or any sort of genre indicators.
Of course, again, I'm used to operating in a short story context where one often is encouraged/feels the need to saturate an opening with info. Novels do have more time to get going.
As it stands I feel like the only thing that draws ones interest is the question of what happened to her, what darkness did she spend so much time in, how did she get here. I'd suggest maybe trying to up that slightly.
Posted by MerlionEmrys (Member # 11024) on :
Also, I would also be willing to read a first chapter, though how long it may take me is anyone's guess.
Prepare yourself to be deluged with sometimes contradictory points of view about narrative distance.
Posted by extrinsic (Member # 8019) on :
"Decoding Narrative Distance, Dave King, is an advanced narrative point of view topic essay. Middle degree sources about narrative point of view include our host Orson Scott Card's Characters and Viewpoint and Damon Knight's Creating Short Fiction.
Writers who speak about third-person, limited narrative point of view use the term "limited" for shorthand to mean limited to one viewpoint persona's perspective and close narrative distance, which includes close selective omniscience, or psychic access to thoughts, likewise limited to the one viewpoint persona.
Third-person, close, limited is a narrator's unfiltered received reflections of an insider persona's emotionally looks, hears, touches, smells, tastes, emotionally feels, thinks, and acts outward and inward.
Third-person detached to remote to middle narrative distance is of an outsider narrator looks inward upon a story's milieu. Which, as is, the fragment leans toward. That traditional narrative point of view was predominant for most of fiction history and is now out of fashion, supplanted by third-person, close to middle distance, limited. First-person's by default close narrative distance is as it has always been.
One substantial distinction for third-person, close, limited to keep in mind: a focal persona cannot see the self nor should trivial reflective surfaces show the self. Expressions like this, Galwin looked baffled, are pure outsider narrator tell, an extra lens filter of an outsider narrator matter-of-fact tells what Galwin looks like for the narrator rather than shows her bafflement realized from her insider, internal perspective.
This sentence, though, is somewhat apt third-person, close, limited: "Gentle lapping of tiny waves and the smell of coarse earth brought her mind into dull focus."
That method entails the self placed in sentence object position and the sentence subject a true, unfiltered, natural sentence subject of the insider self's external and internal perspectives, the self named last from natural thought processes, the self done to and receives rather than the self does, filters, and takes. Another method would raise the lapping waves and coarse earth's portents to a specific, immediate, personal, and emotional level.
Though trivial -ing progressive tenses can accumulate a ring rhyme nuisance -- for demonstration example, instead of wordy "Gentle lapping of tiny waves and the smell of coarse earth brought her mind into dull focus." Consider the effects of //Tiny wave slaps against the fetid shoreline spritzed her dulled mind.//
Or similar other designs that express strong and clear emotions and dramatic, emphatic ideas. My demonstrations are meant to be off-kilter and exaggerated for effect so as not to interfere with a creator's creative vision.
An argument could be made that third-person, close, limited's metaphoric substitution for first-person was not done or accepted prior to the nineteenth century -- because mind reading was thought the idle hand of Satan.
Beware of haphazard synonymous uses of "narrative point of view" and "viewpoint." Narrative point of view applies to an overall narrative's grammar person, tense, grammar mood, degree of psychic access, and tone's emotional-moral attitude toward an overall topic or subject. Viewpoint applies to individual dramatic personas and their personal sensory experiences and instance emotional-moral attitudes that inhabit a narrative.
[ April 13, 2019, 11:50 AM: Message edited by: extrinsic ]
Posted by drew (Member # 11149) on :
quote:Originally posted by MerlionEmrys:
quote: A silent wind caressed her face as weakly she rose
Now, I don't share the hatred some feel of any word ending in -ly, but I do find this construction a little off. At the least, I'd say "she rose weakly", or you could also do something like "she struggled to rise."
I agree 100% on the awkwardness. Something akin to your second example seems more appropriate. I do need to curb my use of -ly. Perhaps I should start reading my work out loud to hear how it sounds and feels? Sound like a good idea.
quote:You could even describe the specific feelings/symptoms that are making it difficult to rise. However, I think this fragment is already a bit heavy on descriptions of physical sensations and environment and light on information about her situation or identity or any sort of genre indicators.
Is there another way to provide genre indicators without getting into her situation and identity? I was trying to purposefully avoid those two things until somewhere around the end of the first page. Maybe I shouldn't deny the reader this information for the sake of "that cool thing" I had in mind?
On that topic, what are the standards of acceptance for minor spoilers here?
quote:As it stands I feel like the only thing that draws ones interest is the question of what happened to her, what darkness did she spend so much time in, how did she get here. I'd suggest maybe trying to up that slightly. [/QB]
That's a big problem, because those questions are quickly answered. If that's the only thing holding the reader's interest, I might lose them after satisfying those curiosities. 0_0
extrinsic, please don't feel like I am ignoring you. Your posts are very challenging for me. Your knowledge of the vocabulary is awesome, and more than a little intimidating. I'm not complaining. I just have to work harder to understand your advice.
quote:Third-person, close, limited is a narrator's unfiltered received reflections of an insider persona's emotionally looks, hears, touches, smells, tastes, emotionally feels, thinks, and acts outward and inward.
This story needs to deal with Galwin's thoughts and feelings, in a pretty big way, over the course of the book, and that feels like the best way to accomplish this. It seems to be as close to a first person perspective as you can get with a third person.
I do have two other main characters, who together with Galwin, comprise the group that goes forth and does "the cool adventure stuff". Still, this is more or less Galwin's book. I had considered switching between the thee points of view, but I believe, while harder to pull off in many ways, the story would work better from her point of view alone.
quote:One substantial distinction for third-person, close, limited to keep in mind: a focal persona cannot see the self nor should trivial reflective surfaces show the self. Expressions like this, Galwin looked baffled, are pure outsider narrator tell, an extra lens filter of an outsider narrator matter-of-fact tells what Galwin looks like for the narrator rather than shows her bafflement realized from her insider, internal perspective.
This, I think I understand. Unless there's a specific reason that she's outside of her body, there's no way to give her that point of view of herself. Even if there was, as though she were looking in a mirror, she would probably not describe herself like that.
If I had to have such a mirror scene, I can describe a look as a feeling or a sense? "She felt a sudden upwelling of sorrow at the sight of herself." or "The face in the mirror was a perfect mask, hiding the pain and grief. She could almost feel its power, convincing her that she wasn't on the edge of despair. Alluring, but ultimately fake."
Something like that, I think, is what the reader would be looking for. Please correct me if I'm off base.
I'll have to study more closely the remainder of your post before I feel comfortable enough to claim anything close to understanding.
Thank you for the insights and advice. I have to work on adding more emotionally driven descriptions and explore the inner mechanics of her character.
[ April 13, 2019, 01:21 PM: Message edited by: drew ]
Posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (Member # 59) on :
quote:Originally posted by drew: Perhaps I should start reading my work out loud to hear how it sounds and feels? Sound like a good idea.
This is always a good idea. A more challenging approach, if you can stand it, is to have someone else read your work to you. It can be painful, but it will help you see how a reader interprets what you've written.
Posted by extrinsic (Member # 8019) on :
Trivial reflection surface scenes are about as cliché as clichés come, like facets that make them trivial are solely physical descriptions absent dramatic content, are at least emotionally charged. General readers skim or skip drama-empty physical descriptions of self or anything.
A viewpoint persona's sense of self and dramatic emotional status by its lonesome is often more powerful appeal than any reflective surface gimmick. As well, more potent if a stream-of-consciousness direct thought, sans any filter words like "felt." Or saw, heard, touched, smelled, tasted, and any variants of those actions that filter through an extra, unnecessary, and trivial lens. More potent appeal yet if a viewpoint persona emotionally interacts with another, a thing, or a setting circumstance.
For example, "felt" filters: "She _felt_ a sudden upwelling of sorrow at the sight of herself." Or "The face in the mirror was a perfect mask, hiding the pain and grief. She could _almost_ _feel_ its power, convincing her that she wasn't on the edge of despair. Alluring, but ultimately fake."
An "almost mistake" there, too, does or does not, or otherwise diction recast more definite and finite affirmation.
//Thought of herself welled up a sudden sorrow. Charades masked her pain and grief beyond despair's abyss. Attractive façade -- an utter fake.//
"Reality is filtered through an extra lens. Instead of saying “rain poured down” the author writes “I felt the rain pour down”. A story always has one filter — author telling reader — and good authors generally try to make the author as unobtrusive as possible. Adding this second filter — author telling character to tell reader — is not only uneconomical, it is also often intrusive.
"Feeling trapped into the restriction that all information must come to the point-of-view character [viewpoint persona, actually], with the result that characters often rush onstage to tell the point-of-view character something. This is even worse than the first problem, because now we have a third filter: character telling character telling author telling reader.
"Confusion between the perception of the author, the narrator (if any), and the POV character. See Author Surrogate."
Novels more than short stories occasion multiple viewpoint personas. They rate as foremost, secondmost, and thirdmost active contestants, plus, if any, an anti-contestant (nemesis, villain). The latter three are relative, if contrary or not, to the first's emphasis relevance, relative to the first's motivations, stakes at risk, and outcome destination. Classic Greek labels for the several are protagonist, deuteragonist, triagonist, and antagonist.
A want or problem motivation presented at the outset is a potent method for reader engagement, and at a proportionate stakes risked degree.
As is, the fragment presents a vague motivation for Galwin to figure out her immediate situation. A cue to a stronger and more tangible motivation, a material destination, sets her into proactive and appealing action and motion. She could fail or refuse action at first, only that the motivator destination be "in-cued," introduced, implied, or intimated. Stakes risked then attend the motivator.
Another trivial cliché is a persona recovers consciousness, wakes up, and explores the persona's situation. Writer opens a scene and explores the situation on the page, seeks a start time, place, persona, and event from which to launch dramatic movement. This is a Dischism:
"Authorism. Inappropriate intrusion of the writer’s physical surroundings, mannerisms, or prejudices into the narrative. Overtly, characters pour cups of coffee whenever they’re thinking, because that’s what the author does. More subtly, characters sit around doing nothing but complaining that they don’t know what to do . . . because the author doesn’t know either. (Tom Disch)" (The Glossary)
"Dischism. The unwitting intrusion of the author’s physical surroundings, or the author’s own mental state, into the text of the story. Authors who smoke or drink while writing often drown or choke their characters with an endless supply of booze and cigs. In subtler forms of the Dischism, the characters complain of their confusion and indecision — when this is actually the author’s condition at the moment of writing, not theirs within the story. “Dischism” is named after the critic who diagnosed this syndrome. (Attr. Thomas M. Disch) From "Turkey City Lexicon – A Primer for SF Workshops," Edited by Lewis Shiner, Second Edition by Bruce Sterling, SFWA hosted.
The Glossary and Lexicon's contents are from years of science fiction and fantasy workshop activities about common-as-breath clichés and worthwhile guidances for writers of any genre.
[ April 13, 2019, 03:59 PM: Message edited by: extrinsic ]
Posted by MerlionEmrys (Member # 11024) on :
quote: Is there another way to provide genre indicators without getting into her situation and identity? I was trying to purposefully avoid those two things until somewhere around the end of the first page. Maybe I shouldn't deny the reader this information for the sake of "that cool thing" I had in mind?
I didn't intend to imply that those three things (identity, situation, genre tag) needed to be linked. They definitely don't.
And, if you had some sort of plan in mind, a reason for doing what you do as you do it, I say follow it. Some disagree, but I am a big supporter of authorial intent-indeed, one of the reasons I critique as I do is because I mostly figure the author has a reason for doing what they're doing.
Mostly, summed up, I just find this fragment a little bland. I have a broad range of potential "points of engagement" (setting, feel, event, style, character etc) as opposed to some who only have like one, but aside from vaguely wondering what happened to her, I'm not really latching on to anything here.
quote: On that topic, what are the standards of acceptance for minor spoilers here?
Your own, or somebody else's?
quote: That's a big problem, because those questions are quickly answered. If that's the only thing holding the reader's interest, I might lose them after satisfying those curiosities. 0_0
Somehow I doubt that. Chances are, those answers will raise their own questions. It's not about the only thing holding interest, in the beginning, it's about creating interest in small things so you can work into the bigger things (or just hit 'em with the big things right away if that fits you're story-I generally tend to start out small.)
Posted by Jay Greenstein (Member # 10615) on :
In general, you’re more the storyteller than placing the reader into the story in real-time. That tends to distance the reader from the action, making it read too much like a report.
In addition, it needs to be squeezed. Our medium is slow, with each word read serially. So removing a words without changing the meaning can make a large difference in how long it takes to read a line. And, the faster the read the greater the impact.
Why tell the reader she opened “one” eye? Does the number of eyes really matter? Why say, A “silent wind” caressed her face? That’s inherent if you use “breeze.” And why not make use of the fact of a breeze implies that she’s outside?
Why say, “It must be just about dawn, she assumed.” ? Doesn’t “must be” imply an assumption? Won’t having her have the thought feel more real than having someone external to the story talk about her?
Why spend forty-four words to say, “She felt strange, though she couldn't describe it. It wasn't pain. That was there, of course, though not as intense as she imagined it should be. She figured she must be numb from the cold, and forced herself to move while it still lasted.” In her viewpoint she doesn’t feel “strange.” Her feeling is specific. Have her feel it. Far too often, you, the author, are explaining things to the reader. Instead, take Mark Twain’s advice to heart: “Don't say the old lady screamed. Bring her on and let her scream.”
It’s her story, after all. And you’re getting set to put her through hell. So, fair is fair. Instead of you, someone not in the story or on the scene talking about her in a voice whose emotion the reader can’t hear, place that reader into her footprints as her. Make them know the situation as-she-does, in her moment of “now.” Life doesn’t take place in overview. You and I, from the moment we wake till sleep claims us, live an unending chain of cause and effect. Shouldn’t she? No one comes into the room where we are and begins talking about us to an invisible audience. How can that happening to her seem real? Would you politely shut up till they finished talking? No. But she does. You’d ask who they were and why they were talking about you. If she doesn’t, can she seem real?
My point is that while classic “point of view,” is a matter of which personal pronouns you use, viewpoint is something very different. And viewpoint always takes place in real-time.
This article talks about one powerful way of presenting viewpoint as the protagonist experiences it, and, through their perception. Chew on it for a bit till it makes sense. Pick a modern story that made you feel as if you were living it in parallel with the protagonist and I think you’ll see that technique in use. And if it seems like something worth pursuing, pick up a copy of the book it was condensed from. It’s filled with things like that.
Hope this helps
Posted by drew (Member # 11149) on :
My comprehension just took a nosedive. This is a challenge.
The spoiler would be of my own story, and only a minor one that I feel brings context to the opening. I wouldn't think of giving someone else's away. If I take the question you raise as an answer of sorts, I'm guessing it's up to me. I'll try to not tell it if I can get away with it, but the questions and points being raised seem to indicate I probably should tell. Though, at this point I guess you probably already know what it is going to be.
The following is what I was going by as I wrote this scene, which is based on experiences I've had with similar trauma. I'm probably not conveying it at all well, so maybe this can give you a sense of what I was going for, and maybe give me a better idea of how to write it.
Her initial motivation, as I understand it, begins with just wanting to get out of the water, and to see how badly she is injured. She is waking up, half dazed and fuzzy headed, in a dreamlike, mindless haze. She's in a state of shock, more or less. She's "not all there" yet. It's not quite as severe as I have experienced it, but that's what I'm going by.
She doesn't recall, at first, how she got into the water. If she does think about the time before right now, she thinks only about darkness and cold. She doesn't have a "last thing I remember" moment until a little bit further down on the page. She knows she was injured, has a sense that it was pretty bad, but the details elude her at first because she's so out of sorts.
Have you ever been so severely injured you went into shock, or woke up after a major surgery with the anesthetic still working it's way out? It's kind of like that for her right now. At least, that's how I imagine it to be, perhaps not so severe as that. She has a singular motivation, and it may not make sense in the context she is in, but it's all she has to consciously hold on to right now.
I once woke up from surgery and all I could think of was sitting up, even though a nurse insisted I lay, pushed me back down, and told me I was waking up from an operation. I heard it, maybe even comprehended some of it, but it didn't stop me from sitting up again and again, for quite a few moments. Eventually my mind came back, and I fully understood where I was and what had happened. Only then did I stop trying to sit up.
A similar thing happened when I broke my femur at age 5 and I went into shock. Conscious, yet mindless, a singular purpose that was not under my control. As if my body grew a very stupid brain and took the reigns from me. I could see myself doing the stupid thing, but not understand why, or how to stop it, or even what just happened to me that caused me to be in this strange state. It's very disconcerting, but it doesn't last long, from my experience.
If you could stop time and bluntly ask her "What are you feeling right now," the best answer I feel she could give is "weird, confused, cold and aching". Her emotions are nearly nonexistent right now, as if still catching up to her, so she's running on something like instinct for the first few moments. Reason and logic are right out. Her senses are confusing to her, but she has enough sense to get out of the water because it's cold, and you don't just lay in the cold water when you're cold, because it's cold, and of course you don't. It's almost nonsensical, but it makes sense to her because she's half-senseless.
If she had her wits, she probably wouldn't be trying to pull herself out of the water until she was sure it was safe for her body to move. Her lower half was the epicenter of the trauma, so I don't describe it yet.
She can feel physical sensations, and recognizes them, but not as she should. The ground feels like ground, but not like how she knows ground feels under her. The water is lapping against her body, but it's not right in her mind, even if she can recognize the sensation. It's like feeling the world through a thin slab of meat, but also not like that because the sense is acute, not dull, and not like she knows it should feel, but she can't articulate the difference.
Very quickly things come back to her, the memories and the emotions come, and the screaming. Trust me, she's screaming in no time here, and feeling terror and anxiety and all those things you know she should feel. But right now she just feels cold and weird.
Now I have to distill all that down into a better scene so I don't have to tell it like this for the reader to understand.
I don't mean for the following to come off as arrogant or as an argument or excuse, but I don't know how else to say it. There are things I don't want to take out. The reflective surface is a big one.
I can't imagine her not doing that. I can't imagine anyone not doing that in her situation. I don't plan on writing it exactly as I did. That was just an illustration to see if I understood what you were saying. Apparently I don't.
The waking up into a scene has to happen too, I think. Cliche or not, it is a "must happen" moment. I can put it somewhere else. I can go back to the previous, as yet, untold scene that brought her to this moment, but I have to retell that previous scene later to another character.
This feels like the place where everything changes. Maybe my writing is worse for keeping it, but I can't say I want to remove it either.
Does cliche have to always be avoided?
"It's just about dawn, she assumed", seems wrong to me. I think I can do:
"It must be just about dawn, she thought."
I don' know. It's like she's trying to assert her own sense of reality on the world. "I will not accept that it is not just about dawn.". Something like that.
I'm not sure what "filter" is in this context, I'm afraid. I don't understand. This is confusing me.
I think this is going to take some major head wrapping. I'll pour over the text and links you provided. Maybe having a few more ways of explaining it will help me see what you're telling me.
I think I'm assuming things are obvious because I know more about the story than the reader, and this is leading me to gloss over or omit key things that the reader needs that I have but don't provide, because I assume it's obvious. I'll have to go through and seriously consider each line, and what it's assuming the reader knows, then fix them.
Thank you for the replies. My pot o' gold nuggets is slowly filling up. Slowly. Posted by MerlionEmrys (Member # 11024) on :
If you want more in depth discussion and clarification, please feel free to email me. I have some thoughts I wouldn't mind sharing if you amenable anyway, but they are a little beyond the scope of the fragments section.
Posted by drew (Member # 11149) on :
Upon further research, I realize this is not epic fantasy. It was in my original vision long ago, but it's changed since then, and I guess I never considered those changes would change what subgenre it would fit in. It is fantasy yes, but it fits more in line with a cross-world, scifi fantasy adventure.
Posted by drew (Member # 11149) on :
I would be more open to one on one discourse once I have more of this worked out. At least a couple decent chapters under my belt, and a firm grasp of the rules of the world. Still working on that bit.
Posted by Jay Greenstein (Member # 10615) on :
quote:Now I have to distill all that down into a better scene so I don't have to tell it like this for the reader to understand.
Here's the problem: At the moment, like mort hopeful writers, you're using the skills we're issued in our school days. But they're nonfiction writing skills, designed to make us useful to our future employers. So no one mentioned that on entering any scene the things a reader needs quickly, in order to have context, are, Where am I? What's going on? Whose skin am I wearing? Lacking that, the reader hasn't context to make sense of what they read. You do, so you don't see the problem as you edit.
Moreover, nonfiction writing is fact-based, as this excerpt was. So we know what happens, but get no sense of self, and no empathetic connection to the reader. It's not a matter of talent or how well you're writing. In fact, and English teacher who received this in response to a writing assignment would probably give you a good grade. An acquiring editor wouldn't.
The problem you face is that no matter how you try to rethink the opening it will always be written in, and shaped by, the writing skills you spent so many years honing that they feel intuitive. For all we know you're awash in writing talent, which, after it's trained will make you an amazing writer. But until them it's unrealized potential.
Remember, your goal isn't to make the reader know. History books do that, and how many read them for entertainment? But history books have romance, betrayal, battles, and everything fiction has. So what does it lack? Immediacy. History is immutable. But place the reader into the protagonist's now, as-the-protagonist, and the future becomes uncertain, and therefore, interesting. We know what has the protagonist's attention. We know how they view it, and what their resources and necessities are. And because we do we may not agree with the protagonist's decision as to what to do next, but we will understand, nd therefore want to know what happens as a result. Ands that's why the reader turns the page. Leave that out—explain things as the all knowing narrator and they don't.
Look at the present opening. You're thinking cinematically. You see her wake, and report what you see, her opening one eye. But knowing what can be seen, and what's in the image you held as you wrote can't generate that image in the reader's mind without a lot more words, because as they say, a picture is worth a thousand words. And in any case, our medium doesn't provide pictures. So instead of talking about her, and what you see happening to her, become her, and let her decide what matters. What is the first thing that catches her attention as she wakes? My guess would be discomfort. But whatever it is, she needs to react to that in some way because if she doesn't—if it doesn't matter enough to her to react to, why are you bothering the reader with it? She's the protagonist, and so it's her story, not yours. So if you report on anything she's not aware of, or actively involved with, you, and the reader, are not in her viewpoint.
Make sense?
Posted by extrinsic (Member # 8019) on :
Any cliché can be rehabilitated, reinvigorated, reinvented, re-innovated, freshened, defused by vivid and lively expression. Wake-ups become transcendent if the wake-up is natural and necessary and incidental to pivotal events, is emotionally charged and interactive for true event subjects. Clichés are tired, trite, worn out, and trivial hand-me-down "used furniture." "Trite, trivial, and used" are the operative terms.
So what if Galwin wakes up and explores her situation? Why should I care? One of our host Orson Scott Card's questions readers ask. If she wants a pressing destination, she's in motion, other than that she wants to know what happened and her physical status snapshot moment state-of-being stasis. She's static or in reversed retro-movement reflections of the past. Forward processes matter, gives me reasons to care, for I want for journeys' destinations, too. Thus a cliché wake-up becomes a lively continuation of a prior and present compelling motivation.
Yeah, I've fallen on my head a few times and was unconscious or dazed and out of it, plus sedated unconscious a few times. The wake-up fuzz is fuzz and incidental. Pressing cares soon stilled the fuzz and were what mattered most from the get-go.
Filters are words that summarize and explain sensations, and the sensations summary told rather than shown in their bald perceptual experiences. Filters create secondhand, thirdhand, and further removes from immediate-now sensations' appeals.
An overexaggerated sample:
I _heard_ Larry _say_ to Donte that Henrique _said_ Gina _said_ boys do _talk_ smack.
Underscores bracket filter words. An I said, he said, he said, she said, they said gossip line, scene, etc. A "He said-she said" paraphrase. That method is also tagged indirect speech, a paraphrased recap of numerous "hearsay" conversations.
The overstatement amounts to a possible commentary about gossip. More context wrap would affirm if so or similar other. By itself, the line is lackluster, bland, static, and emotionally empty, though.
Otherwise, adjustment considerations include conversion to a now-moment conversation of all included, say, the parlor game Telephone unawarely played out at a "Big Brother" house party; the situation's personal sensation perception and emotional descriptions of the event, setting, personas, and speech and thoughts while those transpire: visual, aural, and emotional sensations at least, maybe olfactoral and gustatoral sensation comments about body odor, busybodies, warm beer, and stale popcorn.
Sensation descriptions' strengths are from how a viewpoint observer characterizes events, settings, and characters, as much or more reveals the self's true nature as the self-biased perceptions of others' observed natures.
However, dependent on narrowed genre type and audience, such conventions might overwork or delight readers. If a genre's focus is known, say young adult action adventure social (soft) fantasy science fiction, then yes, more verbatim, direct sensation descriptions.
Soft and hard science fiction split along fantastical science type, though crossovers develop both and more: social sciences and physical sciences. If hard science fiction, then more filtered sensation paraphrased tell is target-reader accepted.
The novel's descriptions thus far indicate more social sciences emphasis than physical sciences emphasis. Thus, more verbatim descriptive details are apt and may be wanted for target audience appeal value and effect. Physical sciences science fiction wants less social descriptions and more descriptions of how science and technology gadgets work and are used for a given milieu and more so how those influence lives.
Hard science fiction example of excellence, Ursula K. Le Guin's cumulative ansible uses and how-it-works, or really, how ansibles are used descriptions (metaphor for underwater submarine radio messages and limited, brief, pager-type message memo correspondence across vast distances: prescient of Twitter fodder-all). Soft science fiction (political sciences): George Orwell's 1984, fantastical social dystopia allegory, faceless and indifferent government tyranny.
[ April 14, 2019, 02:16 PM: Message edited by: extrinsic ]
Posted by drew (Member # 11149) on :
Ah, I think I see what you're saying now.
"He noticed the rain pelt his face as he watched it pour down."
could become
"Pouring rain pelted his face."
Understanding isn't competence, and I'm really going to have to work on this to avoid filtering, but this is progress.
Considering the lack inherent in the waking scene, I'm compelled to go back one scene and start there. It's big on motion and puts the waking into context, and would actually allow me to trust the reader enough not to have to explore every waking second.
That would align more with the idea of a monomyth. Not that I'm trying for it (trying to avoid it, to be honest), but that's something that might help indicate genre, since I have almost nothing that does that here.
Aside: I just learned about this M.I.C.E thing our host created. I might go for that. Seems interesting. Need to study more.
This isn't going to be hard science, though it might delve a tad into how some of the tech works. Not sure yet. I don't require writing the scifi like stereo instructions, if that's what you mean.
Since I'm going to rewrite this chapter again (again and again), I guess telling why I need a reflection scene isn't going to harm anything. You probably already know. It's not a moment of deep personal reflection, just a moment of confirmation that what she already suspects is true: It's not her body, and this is not her face.
Once again, I am humbled, but hopeful. Thanks for sticking with me. Posted by MerlionEmrys (Member # 11024) on :
Don't be too humbled-remember, it's still your story, your voice and your style.
Knowing this, me, myself, personally, I'd suggest perhaps, maybe inject some of the things that cause her to suspect her situation into the opening. It would add interest and perhaps a hint of a genre tag (though especially in a novel, that isn't necessarily an absolute necessity anyway.)
Posted by drew (Member # 11149) on :
The more I think about this, the further back I feel I should start the story. Maybe even before the accident, because even then there's not much to it than some brief exciting action, and reflection on an event that lead her to encounter the accident. So, the story might be best served by establishing that scene first in the present, which would allow me to properly introduce her character and say some things about her current life.
Researching story writing leads me to conclude this is less like a book opening, and more like a short story opening. Taking it back a couple of scenes, and not trying to fishhook the reader into liking the character, but actually giving them reasons to like her up front, is a more sound strategy.
I think I jumped into writing this too quickly. I might take a biiig step back and consider how to go about it in a better way, which will give me time to study more. My grammar, for one, is in desperate need of attention. Posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (Member # 59) on :
Please include the names of the people you are quoting.
Posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (Member # 59) on :
quote:Originally posted by drew: On that topic, what are the standards of acceptance for minor spoilers here?
It is helpful, sometimes, to tell us what you are trying to do, what your plans are for what comes next in the story, especially if you are trying to set things up in your first 13 lines for what comes next.
So "spoilers" should not be a problem.
We are trying to approach what you write as fellow writers, not necessarily as readers (though that helps, too). As writers, we look at how you convey the story, and try to offer suggestions on how to do that more effectively.
Posted by extrinsic (Member # 8019) on :
The high-end and platinum standard U.S. Standard English grammar handbook for any language skill level past, say, age sixteen years old, is The Little, Brown Handbook, 12th edition, about $125 list price, on sale for half that amount online at you-know-where.
Standard English is the core dialect, punctuation, grammar, etc., of the language as accepted by past and present writers and speakers of the language and is the most accessible expression for the vast majority. Prose, though, wants optional grammars and idiolects (identity, personal grammar [id + dialect]) as well. ---- Scenes established in a present now are of more appeal, period, and potentially as close a narrative distance as practical, given a narrative point of view.
The recent thought to open from earlier scenes occurred to me as an apt strategy, too. Consider that Galwin at the river is a consequence, an effect of earlier causes. A first cause is often where a narrative ought best practice start.
An in medias res start opens in the middle of the action, so to speak. Can be anytime, anywhere other than ab ovo, from the egg of conception, literally, or ab initio, from the initiation. Or in ultimas res, at the end of the thing, is also a method and time to open. Each someway opens at a realization of a want-problem Antagonism and stakes risked Causation. Tension is from how circumstances emotionally entrain for best reader emotional effect: ACT.
[ April 15, 2019, 11:35 AM: Message edited by: extrinsic ]
Posted by Princesisto (Member # 11113) on :
Always at the back of the queue, aren't I?
Well, now I cannot find your original text at all, only comments.
Never mind: I reject this "write an encyclopedia about the book from 13 lines" anyway. It is an invitation to verbal Onanism and it is too enthusiastically, too often, taken up.
If you want me to see the first Chapter or more, and are willing to comment on my writing of equivalent length, use my e-mail address.
"Princesisto"
Posted by drew (Member # 11149) on :
I am currently reworking the opening scene, this time set in a cinema where she works. I believe this will be a much better opening, and allows me to reflect on the story itself with the film being played. I've also introduced a homeless guy which should bring more of the theme into play early. I'm really liking how it's going so far.
I would share, but I feel I need to make sure I'm not making the same mistakes I did here. Plus, life is tossing me curve balls, and my arm is getting tired from swinging for the bleachers. I'll update this when I feel the work is ready, or more probably, when I'm ready to give you all the attention you deserve.
Thanks!
Posted by drew (Member # 11149) on :
Ah, what the heck. Here are my revised 13 lines, which also encompasses the entire first paragraph.
The cinema was near empty tonight. Sparse regulars occupied the plush seats like islands in a dim sea, the space between them further than even the saltiest sailors would dare to sail. Haloed heads were lit by the glow of a classic black and white film playing on the screen. A young teenage couple were making out in the back row, disinterested in the story being told. They were too busy exploring their own plot lines. Old Bob Gantry, the town's resident philosopher drunk, had his usual place in the seventh row to the far right of the theater. Galwin didn't care for the old guy, but the owner let him sit in on nights like this, when his presence wouldn't disturb the tiny audience. The cost of admission was never brought up when it came to Bob.
Fun fact, I pulled the name Gantry clear out of the blue. One meaning of the word I later found out was "a frame for holding barrels". Considering his affinity for whiskey, and rather portly shape, I find this deliciously fitting. How wondrous the subconscious, eh?
Posted by extrinsic (Member # 8019) on :
Maybe also nonconscious allusion to Sinclair Lewis' Elmer Gantry, 1927 novel, 1960 motion picture? Gantry, a hard drinker and philanderer, travels on the proverbial road toward Damascus.
Consider an earlier introduction point for Galwin, for the sake of sooner, closer narrative distance. Here, say, "Sparse regulars occupied the plush seats like islands in a dim sea . . ."
//Sparse regulars occupied the plush seats around Galwin [or apter, her], like islands in a dim sea . . .//
Also, with few language acrobatics, the several static voice predicates of to be verb + -ing could become more robust, dynamic expression appeals.
"Haloed heads _were_ lit _by_ the glow of a classic black and white film _playing_ on the screen."
Passive and static voice. "were," albeit past tense main verb "lit," most so the preposition "by," and "playing," are tip-offs of passive voice. Passive voice is always static voice's stasis state-of-being statements.
Active and dynamic voice inversion, the doer of the halo-light glows' true sentence subject from the projection screen light, and this below places apt force amplitude and main idea emphasis at the sentence's end:
//Glows from a classic black-and-white film on the silver screen haloed patrons' heads.//
Reconsider all static voice to be verbs?
As is, the latest fragment version, a movement toward a stronger, closer narrative distance, more in the now-moment insider viewpoint persona received external and internal reflections, little, if any, dramatic movement setup, though.
How to set up for the pendent routine interruption dramatic movement toward an abrupt, unwanted mind-body transfer? (A milieu emphasis per our host Orson Scott Card's M.I.C.E. quotient.) Through portentous descriptions of the extant pivotal event, setting, and personas of the theater scene.
"The cinema was near empty tonight. Sparse regulars occupied the plush seats like islands in a dim sea, the _space between them_ _further_ than even the saltiest sailors would dare to sail."
"space between them," a modifier-subject number agreement error and a between-among error. "further," further-farther error.
Illustration exaggerated for effect:
//Few regulars squirmed the plush chairs around her tonight, theatergoers like sparse ships, islands of an alien sea. Farther apart than salty sailors dared sail -- vast gaps stretched among them.//
More said from the several above demonstrations and little, if any, language acrobatics or much longer word count.
Many S sounds, either the original or the demonstration one above, poetic consonance, that reflect susurant theater ambient, radio, and static electricity noises, persona's tactile friction noises, and settings' air and water movement sounds. More portentous substance than meets the eye from those S's.
[ April 18, 2019, 04:32 PM: Message edited by: extrinsic ]
Posted by drew (Member # 11149) on :
quote:Originally posted by extrinsic: Maybe also nonconscious allusion to Sinclair Lewis' Elmer Gantry, 1927 novel, 1960 motion picture? Gantry, a hard drinker and philanderer, travels on the proverbial road toward Damascus.
I don't think I've ever encountered this film. What a gem. I think I know what I'll be watching tonight.
quote:Originally posted by extrinsic: Consider an earlier introduction point for Galwin, for the sake of sooner, closer narrative distance. Here, say, "Sparse regulars occupied the plush seats like islands in a dim sea . . ."
//Sparse regulars occupied the plush seats around Galwin [or apter, her], like islands in a dim sea . . .//
A fine idea. I'm a little concerned about her introduction. I admit I spend more time with Gantry than Galwin. I really need to make her more interesting. Gantry kind of stole the show. :/
quote:Originally posted by extrinsic: Also, with few language acrobatics, the several static voice predicates of to be verb + -ing could become more robust, dynamic expression appeals.
"Haloed heads _were_ lit _by_ the glow of a classic black and white film _playing_ on the screen."
Passive and static voice. "were," albeit past tense main verb "lit," most so the preposition "by," and "playing," are tip-offs of passive voice. Passive voice is always static voice's stasis state-of-being statements.
Active and dynamic voice inversion, the doer of the halo-light glows' true sentence subject from the projection screen light, and this below places apt force amplitude and main idea emphasis at the sentence's end:
//Glows from a classic black-and-white film on the silver screen haloed patrons' heads.//
Reconsider all static voice to be verbs?
Most definitely. I'll keep this in mind as I write and rewrite. It will take some doing. Also, I know to put the funny bit at the end for more punch, but I seem to have missed this when it comes to dramatic effect. Good catch.
quote:Originally posted by extrinsic: As is, the latest fragment version, a movement toward a stronger, closer narrative distance, more in the now-moment insider viewpoint persona received external and internal reflections, little, if any, dramatic movement setup, though.
Progress! I think? The lack of dramatic setup appears acceptable in this first paragraph, though I realize it needs to come in sooner than I currently have it. I have her boyfriend (the projectionist) sneak in behind her and point out Bob has a date, and there is a little conflict there. I don't get to that for three more paragraphs, but I can move those and have some conflict right up front.
Those other three paragraphs go more into Gantry, Galwin's thoughts and feelings about him (probably too much), Galwin sneaking into the theater to watch the film (she's works the ticket counter, I should make this clear up front as well, I realize it's not), and the film on screen (mainly placeholder, until I find the perfect film to use here, or make up a better one). A bit of shuffling about can fix the pacing and put some setup closer to the front.
quote:Originally posted by extrinsic: How to set up for the pendent routine interruption dramatic movement toward an abrupt, unwanted mind-body transfer? (A milieu emphasis per our host Orson Scott Card's M.I.C.E. quotient.) Through portentous descriptions of the extant pivotal event, setting, and personas of the theater scene.
An excellent question, and interesting answer. I was hoping Gantry and the film would help here. Him being the happy homeless, and the film depicting (perhaps cliche) cross-world portal fantasy in cinematic form, a la The Wizard of Oz (but not that film). Dorothy does get a mention, however.
quote:Originally posted by extrinsic: "The cinema was near empty tonight. Sparse regulars occupied the plush seats like islands in a dim sea, the _space between them_ _further_ than even the saltiest sailors would dare to sail."
"space between them," a modifier-subject number agreement error and a between-among error. "further," further-farther error.
Illustration exaggerated for effect:
//Few regulars squirmed the plush chairs around her tonight, theatergoers like sparse ships, islands of an alien sea. Farther apart than salty sailors dared sail -- vast gaps stretched among them.//
More said from the several above demonstrations and little, if any, language acrobatics or much longer word count.
I wasn't able to find a local copy of the Little Brown Handbook at the library, but there is copy of the Handbook for Writers published by Simon & Schuster that I should be studying more. This was mentioned there. I really need to get my grammar under control.
quote:Originally posted by extrinsic: Many S sounds, either the original or the demonstration one above, poetic consonance, that reflect susurant theater ambient, radio, and static electricity noises, persona's tactile friction noises, and settings' air and water movement sounds. More portentous substance than meets the eye from those S's.
Something I am oblivious to. 0_0 Interesting. I am aware that I am using a LOT of water metaphors, and I don't know why. Something to investigate. I'll try to reduce that ssstatic. (now that I see it, I notice it everywhere. The Blue Prius effect?)
Thank you. A very insightful critique. Posted by extrinsic (Member # 8019) on :
A sublime characterization method develops a viewpoint first- or third-person persona's true nature through their personal insider biased lenses, as it were, Jerome Stern's, Making Shapely Fiction, Specimen shape. A self reveals as much or more about the observer-biased self's nature and personality, interesting for those features alone, as about a specimen(s) observed.
Those above water metaphors intimate a maritime nature, fascination, or alignment or wish for the life maritime of a viewpoint persona. Apt characterizations, and maybe fertile fruit potential for the film title? Maybe The Ancient Mariner, 1928, silent-classic fantasy based upon Samuel Taylor Coleridge's 1798 poem The Rime of the Ancient Mariner, a film which also characterizes the theater's nature, a classic film venue, or similar other, a potential faint allusion to a fantasy science fiction milieu and maybe enough to show so within a first page.
Bob Gantry could be a drunken old salt retired home from the sea. He and Galwin loathe each other yet share, unaware, that one piece of maritime interest. Readers could be shown they are solitaire ships at sea that passed unaware.
[ April 18, 2019, 07:40 PM: Message edited by: extrinsic ]
Posted by drew (Member # 11149) on :
Let us see if I understand this. I honestly didn't know the distinction between further and farther. (Thanks Youtube!) Farther distances further our resolve. Natch.
I'm sure I'm missing something. I tried to keep the prose closer to what I had, rather than taking your suggestions an just pasting them in. I think the metaphor of heads as islands works better than ships. No offense. Here are my updated 13 lines.
I sought to address the S's sound issue. Seems it needs some serious study. hehe
The cinema was near empty tonight. A scant audience occupied the plush chairs before her like islands in a dim ocean, the spaces between them farther than even the hardiest would dare to sail. A classic black and white film played on the screen illuminating the patrons' heads like halos. A young teenage couple were making out in the back row, disinterested in the story being told. They were too busy exploring their own plot lines. Old Bob Gantry, the town's resident philosopher drunk, occupied his usual place in the seventh row to the far right of the theater. Galwin didn't care for the old guy, but the owner let him sit in on nights like this, when his enjoyment wouldn't disturb the tiny audience. The cost of admission was never mentioned when it came to Bob.
Gosh, I hope that's still 13 lines. 0_0
[edit] I didn't see your latest reply. The maritime theme may be due to my own residence being a coastal bay. I can go with the flow, though. I'll check out that film. If nothing else, another film for the fodder pile. Thank you. Posted by Grumpy old guy (Member # 9922) on :
I am not engaged as a reader. Sorry.
One of the benefits of critiquing other’s stories is that when you aren’t engaged you sometimes need to just sit and seriously think about why. Answer: I’m not there.
We’ve all seen this particular scene in a movie; the nearly empty cinema with an assortment of oddballs scattered about. It’s easy to imagine, so why aren’t I there? Let me pre-empt Jay Greenstein by saying that it reads like a report; both versions. I’m just not there in the moment.
In addition, on another thread I wrote: “A first sentence, by definition, must be able to stand on its own. Nothing precedes it and that which follows is dependent on what it says.” In this instance you tick both of my preferred boxes, and yet, for me, it fails: why?
quote:Originally posted by Drew:
The cinema was near empty tonight.
I have a problem with the phrasing of this sentence. The use of the term ‘near’ catches in my mind and causes my reading flow to stumble--if that makes any kind of sense. It makes what should be a simple statement a torrid read. And, in further consideration (while I’m writing this) I think you could drop the ‘tonight’. Is it necessary at this point? Time of day seems to be irrelevant in a cinema.
Hope you find these sparse observations useful.
Phil.
Posted by Jay Greenstein (Member # 10615) on :
quote:"Pouring rain pelted his face."
Okay, you've broken the code...on that one issue. But there are hundreds more. And the fact that you're missing them, combined with your existing writing reflexes "grabbing the controls" is sabotaging the rewrite.
Your first inclination as a storyteller is to "set the scene." So, the majority of the rewrite is devoted to things that could be seen in the video version, but which aren't relevant to the protagonist in his moment of now.
When you open with “The cinema was near empty tonight,” that’s what the protagonist concludes as a result of observation, in six words. But then, you, the author, drop in an essay of 132 words on who’s there, cataloging visual detail in a medium that can't reproduce the image or the ambiance he responds to. So unless there's a reason, plot-wise, for him to notice to that level of detail; unless it directly influences what he does/says next, why do we, as readers, care, given that we don’t yet know what’s going on, where we are in time and space, and who we are? Those three issues give a reader context. So lacking them, when they need it to make the scene meaningful is a "shot ourselves in the foot," kind of problem.
Look at line two: “Sparse regulars occupied the plush seats like islands in a dim sea, the space between them further than even the saltiest sailors would dare to sail.” These are visual details that the protagonist has seen many times, so mentioning them is the author explaining, not the protagonist noticing.
And of course, talking about the space between seats in a theater as you have, in an attempt to “jazz-up” the telling, is pretty well into purple prose.
My point? You’ve picked up on an important point, one most hopeful writers never do learn. And you deserve both credit and praise for having done that. It will serve you well. But you’re missing the same kind of epiphany on other critical issues, as well.
The good news? You already know how cool it is to catch on to such things, and the opportunities it creates for more exciting and real prose. So learning that there’s more, each of which will make as great a difference in the readability of your prose, is something to look forward to. And each of them will have as great an effect on the flow, and the planning and presentation of the story. Is a good thing.
With that one issue, your protagonist just became your co-writer, to an extent, because you now must present the action in that character’s viewpoint. Now, you need to pick up the tricks of presenting that viewpoint, and ending a scene, and....
That article I linked to can be a huge help. But the book it’s condensed from hits many more points than that one, and is well worth a look.
Posted by drew (Member # 11149) on :
quote:Originally posted by Grumpy old guy: I am not engaged as a reader. Sorry.
You need not apologize. This is far more valuable to me than you might think. I feel I learn more from my mistakes, and not engaging the reader is a big mistake.
quote:Originally posted by Grumpy old guy: One of the benefits of critiquing other’s stories is that when you aren’t engaged you sometimes need to just sit and seriously think about why. Answer: I’m not there.
We’ve all seen this particular scene in a movie; the nearly empty cinema with an assortment of oddballs scattered about. It’s easy to imagine, so why aren’t I there? Let me pre-empt Jay Greenstein by saying that it reads like a report; both versions. I’m just not there in the moment.
Hehe, you must be psychic. If I say that she is unhappy that the theater is nearly empty, instead of just stating it is, it would introduce her and her perspective in the first line. Then it would be more about her, and less about the scenery. I could then flow right into Gantry's introduction as the reason for her unhappiness, her love of the film and bam: her boyfriend pops in, makes rude comments about Gantry and his lady, Galwin and he have hushed words that make her a bit guilty bout not liking Old Bob, the film breaks... and I'm getting ahead of myself.
quote:Originally posted by Grumpy old guy: In addition, on another thread I wrote: “A first sentence, by definition, must be able to stand on its own. Nothing precedes it and that which follows is dependent on what it says.” In this instance you tick both of my preferred boxes, and yet, for me, it fails: why?
quote:Originally posted by Drew:
The cinema was near empty tonight.
I have a problem with the phrasing of this sentence. The use of the term ‘near’ catches in my mind and causes my reading flow to stumble--if that makes any kind of sense. It makes what should be a simple statement a torrid read. And, in further consideration (while I’m writing this) I think you could drop the ‘tonight’. Is it necessary at this point? Time of day seems to be irrelevant in a cinema.
The time of day is sort of relevant, as this is the last showing of the day, and she'll decide to walk home alone instead of getting a ride from her boyfriend. I wanted to make the coming accident to stem directly from her choices, and also to be a product of her virtue, if that makes any sense. Her love of the film caused a rift, she decides to walk home alone, and so on.
The awkward wording of the first sentence is totally my fault for trying to avoid an -ly adverb. I probably should have just kept it.
(isn't it interesting how the word awkward has this weird WKW thing going on? As if the word is the visual representation of the emotion... huh. The things you notice.)
quote:Originally posted by Grumpy old guy: Hope you find these sparse observations useful.
Phil.
I do. I really do. Thank you. Posted by drew (Member # 11149) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jay Greenstein:
quote: "Pouring rain pelted his face."
Okay, you've broken the code...on that one issue.
That has yet to be proven. Let's see if I actually put it into practice.
quote:Originally posted by Jay Greenstein: But there are hundreds more. And the fact that you're missing them, combined with your existing writing reflexes "grabbing the controls" is sabotaging the rewrite.
I am an eager student, and I know you don't have to teach me the basics. I appreciate the time you've all taken.
quote:Originally posted by Jay Greenstein: Your first inclination as a storyteller is to "set the scene." So, the majority of the rewrite is devoted to things that could be seen in the video version, but which aren't relevant to the protagonist in his moment of now.
When you open with “The cinema was near empty tonight,” that’s what the protagonist concludes as a result of observation, in six words. But then, you, the author, drop in an essay of 132 words on who’s there, cataloging visual detail in a medium that can't reproduce the image or the ambiance he responds to.
That clicks. You have a great way of explaining. I just lept right out of her headspace into a video camera and started recording facts. Uhg. Okay Drew. Now put it into practice. -_-
quote:Originally posted by Jay Greenstein: So unless there's a reason, plot-wise, for him to notice to that level of detail; unless it directly influences what he does/says next, why do we, as readers, care, given that we don’t yet know what’s going on, where we are in time and space, and who we are? Those three issues give a reader context. So lacking them, when they need it to make the scene meaningful is a "shot ourselves in the foot," kind of problem.
That level of detail is only relevant as it pertains to her story, and I can see that it really doesn't unless I make it more involved with her. Less Cinemascope and more Galwinscope.
quote:Originally posted by Jay Greenstein: Look at line two: “Sparse regulars occupied the plush seats like islands in a dim sea, the space between them further than even the saltiest sailors would dare to sail.” These are visual details that the protagonist has seen many times, so mentioning them is the author explaining, not the protagonist noticing.
0_0 I never even considered that this would be a routine sight for her. That's interesting. So, I should focus on what she herself would be focused on, not just trying to paint a scene for the sake of having a scene. Wow, okay.
quote:Originally posted by Jay Greenstein: And of course, talking about the space between seats in a theater as you have, in an attempt to “jazz-up” the telling, is pretty well into purple prose.
Funny thing, even as I wrote that I could feel my ego smiling. You can practically taste the lavender. XD
quote:Originally posted by Jay Greenstein: My point? You’ve picked up on an important point, one most hopeful writers never do learn. And you deserve both credit and praise for having done that. It will serve you well. But you’re missing the same kind of epiphany on other critical issues, as well.
The good news? You already know how cool it is to catch on to such things, and the opportunities it creates for more exciting and real prose. So learning that there’s more, each of which will make as great a difference in the readability of your prose, is something to look forward to. And each of them will have as great an effect on the flow, and the planning and presentation of the story. Is a good thing.
With that one issue, your protagonist just became your co-writer, to an extent, because you now must present the action in that character’s viewpoint. Now, you need to pick up the tricks of presenting that viewpoint, and ending a scene, and....
Careful. I think I feel that ego smile coming back. Seriously, though, thank you for pointing out what I'm getting right. You guys are really good at this critique thing.
To play devil's advocate, this scene isn't ended in thirteen lines. Unless there's something I'm missing. There's probably something I'm missing.
quote:Originally posted by Jay Greenstein: That article I linked to can be a huge help. But the book it’s condensed from hits many more points than that one, and is well worth a look.
I'll see what the library has to offer. You're referring to the "Writing Fiction for Dummies" book, correct? Sounds about my speed.
Thank you. I can't imagine tackling this work without this community's assistance and guidance. So glad I joined.
[ April 18, 2019, 11:52 PM: Message edited by: drew ]
Posted by extrinsic (Member # 8019) on :
"near empty" contains a "flat adverb" unique to North America dialects, U.S. and southern and far western parts of Canada that border the U.S., wide deprecation for all other British Commonwealth and ex-Commonwealth dialects.
Flat adverbs are most often conjunctive adverbs that start a sentence or clause or fall most anywhere in a sentence, and are comma separated if remote from a true sentence verb. Ordinal number adverbs, for example:
First, Galwin sold tickets. U.S.
Firstly, Galwin sold tickets. British
For more about "flat adverbs," see Webster's Dictionary of English Usage.
"Near" can be an adverb itself, or preposition, a particle of a multiple-word verb, adjective, or a verb itself.
[ April 19, 2019, 04:31 AM: Message edited by: extrinsic ]
Posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (Member # 59) on :
quote:Originally posted by drew:
quote:Originally posted by Jay Greenstein: Look at line two: “Sparse regulars occupied the plush seats like islands in a dim sea, the space between them further than even the saltiest sailors would dare to sail.” These are visual details that the protagonist has seen many times, so mentioning them is the author explaining, not the protagonist noticing.
0_0 I never even considered that this would be a routine sight for her. That's interesting. So, I should focus on what she herself would be focused on, not just trying to paint a scene for the sake of having a scene. Wow, okay.
Yes, yes, yes! Absolutely (pardon the -ly word).
Focusing on what your point-of-view character focuses on not only puts the reader into that character's head, but it shows the reader things about the character that you don't have to "tell" them.
You might want to consider something along the lines of the theater may have been almost empty for the last show, but drunk old Bob Gantry was there - while indicating that Galwin is the one who is noticing this.
Posted by extrinsic (Member # 8019) on :
Damon Knight, Creating Short Fiction, page 133, graphs forty-two narrative points of view. The table distinguishes viewpoint persona types, grammar person, degree of psychic access to thoughts, if any, subjective-objective insider-outsider axis, and number of viewpoint personas. Knight rejects thirteen of the forty-two and remarks three are rare. The ones Knight rejects are uncommon, suit rarest situations, though rarely work for many readers.
Most favored narrative points of view: third-person, close, limited, and first-person's by default close and limited mannerisms. First-person faces steep resistance if the challenges of the perpendicular pronoun "I" are unmet.
Third, close, limited challenges writers and readers, too. The narrative point of view more or less substitutes for first-person, metaphor-like. And is among the more flexible regards auxiliary, attendant narrative points of view, especially for novels.
The cognition acrobatics third, close, limited asks of writers and readers are beyond inexperienced readers' intellectual aptitudes. Humans begin limited development of that degree of abstract cognition in the late teen years and farther into adulthood, if ever. More than a few don't.
University creative writing and literature instructors' ready familiarity for traditional proses' traditional outsider narrative points of view leaves them more favorable to detached to remote to middle distance outsider, third-person narrators. That audience amounts to a few hundred thousand potential readers worldwide.
A third-person, variable distance, limited short story example of excellence: Joyce Carol Oates' "Where Are You Going, Where Have You Been." The narrative starts detached and seamlessly moves toward remote, middle, close, to a danger-close personal distance end, dramatic movement itself.
The start, of note, nonetheless upsets emotional equilibrium. Actually, emotional disequilibrium movement starts for savvy readers at the title's allusions to a parent's expressed concerns for a wayward teen and a Book of Judges biblical allegory.
The short story recounts a young woman's personal introduction journey into adult sexuality's contrary privileges, responsibilities, delights, perils, and horrors. In other words, contains personal motivations, stakes at risk, complication and conflict throughout, and a specific personal motion portrait that transcends a small life for larger-than-life, global substance.
All this said to say, narrative point of view and persona viewpoints, personal motivations and stakes and attitudes, from start to end, shape a lively, vivid narrative of any length.
The latest fragment, third version, aside from a few awkward language considerations, jumbles narrative point of, lacks emotional disequilibrium movement, motivations, and stakes. The tone and attitude are fraught with unrealized portentous substance, though the haloed heads stands out as a useful portent motif of haloed demon angels potential. The descriptions are vivid though dramatically lackluster portents, that is, are mime.
Would Galwin express a stronger personal attitude about pivotal to her circumstances? Would artful contradictions counter her personal belief errors? Would she show a motivation force, a personal want or problem, or want-problem? Would she risk personal stakes? Such pivotal facets defuse mime and entrain emotional disequilibrium movement.
Those are much to place in thirteen lines. The fragment takes an apt leisure time for detail descriptions. A consideration or strategy might likewise appreciate an apt leisure time for focused dramatic movement setup. Some readers want a rapid start; others, a medium pace; others, a quiet pace; rare few want a slow, no, or reversed movement start. More so, a given narrative wants an emotional pace from a start that suits a central topic.
Want introduction is a least challenge. Problem introduction is next most. Stakes risked introductions are next most. Tone and attitude are greater challenges, albeit, due to all our human lives we are directed to not make a public spectacle scene. Okay -- glorious to make a scene on the sacred prose page.
Therein, as much as more than a few writers may resist, a social-moral topic subtext is the appeal feature of substance, an eventual, discovered personal moral truth -- what an apt narrative is truly about.
Descriptions of Galwin's journey as self-inflicted problems raises several possible proverbs (social-moral message features): a self is a self's worst enemy, sublime; or, no proverb for this yet, wants one: assign blame for the self's faults, trespasses, vices, and follies to others (external blame assignment). Something to the effect of, You can only assign external blame if you are the one to blame in the first place (a cognitive inversion in that, irony, a feature of proverbs' appeals).
A novel that discovers the latter's moral truth, if suggested soon, if not from a title, would hopelessly engage me. More appeal if, at some point latter half in a narrative, a title's full import is realized, especially if a new proverb coined therefrom.
[ April 19, 2019, 04:36 PM: Message edited by: extrinsic ]
Posted by drew (Member # 11149) on :
Here's my latest rewrite. I can already see the improvement. The first line feels a little wonky to me, though. Maybe it's fine. Probably not.
The night shift ticket girl was unhappy that the cinema was nearly empty again, despite the fact that the audience in the plush chairs before her were enjoying her favorite classic film. Well, most of them were. She had slipped in to watch the movie and amusingly noted a teenage couple in the back row exploring their own plot lines. They didn't upset her, though she should probably tell Kieth if they start distracting the other patrons. Her boyfriend running the ancient projector moonlighted as usher. She was miffed that old Bob Gantry was here again, the town's resident philosopher drunk. He always crumpled down in the seventh row to the far right of the theater, dressed in his shabby blue poncho and knit cap, a potent whiskey aura guaranteeing his solitude.
I had to snip the last part to fit within 13 lines. It doesn't hold many alterations, though I do identify Bob as an old sailor instead of just an old guy, and added the word 'cold' to the line about 'nights like this', to make it clear why Bob is allowed in for free. I also changed 'audience' to be infinitive instead of definitive. Tiny edits I don't think anyone would object to.
Oh, and I changed her boyfriend's name from Robert to Kieth. One Bob is enough. hehe
I just checked out English Grammar for Dummies from my local library, and put a purchase suggestion in for them to buy Writing Fiction for Dummies. I learned there is a writing group that meets once a month, which I plan to attend. Things are moving right along. Wish me luck! Posted by drew (Member # 11149) on :
And of course, someone replies as I posted that. Okay, let's see what we have here.
Posted by drew (Member # 11149) on :
quote:Originally posted by extrinsic: The cognition acrobatics third, close, limited asks of writers and readers are beyond inexperienced readers' intellectual aptitudes. Humans begin limited development of that degree of abstract cognition in the late teen years and farther into adulthood, if ever. More than a few don't.
I think that you're saying that third-person, close, limited narrative distance is too challenging for young adults. Are you sure? I thought that's what I should strive for. Am I mistaken? This is a bit confusing. 0_o
quote:Originally posted by extrinsic: A third-person, variable distance, limited short story example of excellence: Joyce Carol Oates' "Where Are You Going, Where Have You Been." The narrative starts detached and seamlessly moves toward remote, middle, close to a danger-close personal distance end, dramatic movement itself.
The possibility that narration could move about had occurred to me when I first learned about narrative distance, but I rightly assumed it was beyond my ability to pull off. Perhaps someday.
quote:Originally posted by extrinsic: The latest fragment, third version, aside from a few awkward language considerations, jumbles narrative point of, lacks emotional disequilibrium movement, motivations, and stakes. The tone and attitude are fraught with unrealized portentous substance, though the haloed heads stands out as a useful portent motif of haloed demon angels potential. The descriptions are vivid though dramatically lackluster portents, that is, are mime.
I hope I've addressed this in my latest rewrite.
quote:Originally posted by extrinsic: Descriptions of Galwin's journey as self-inflicted problems raises several possible proverbs (social-moral message features): a self is a self's worst enemy, sublime; or, no proverb for this yet, wants one: assign blame for the self's faults, trespasses, vices, and follies to others (external blame assignment). Something to the effect of, You can only assign external blame if you are the one to blame in the first place (a cognitive inversion in that, irony, a feature of proverbs' appeals).
A novel that discovers the latter's moral truth, if suggested soon, if not from a title, would hopelessly engage me. More appeal, if at some point latter half in a narrative, a title's full import is realized, especially if a new proverb coined therefrom.
I am aware of the notion, and I'm sure it will come into play in some form. The reason I want her choices and virtues to propel her into the story is not to make the event a mistake, but a natural outcome of who she is as a person. I want to put a good person in a bad situation and make it so that it's not fated, but inevitable that a good person would end up here. She's (I'm) not a bad kid because bad things happen to her (me). I think that's what I'm going for.
You make it so hard for me, sometimes I wish I had an eXtrinsic-Drewish dictionary. XD
Posted by extrinsic (Member # 8019) on :
quote:Originally posted by drew:
quote:Originally posted by extrinsic: The cognition acrobatics third, close, limited asks of writers and readers are beyond inexperienced readers' intellectual aptitudes. Humans begin limited development of that degree of abstract cognition in the late teen years and farther into adulthood, if ever. More than a few don't.
I think that you're saying that third-person, close, limited narrative distance is too challenging for young adults. Are you sure? I thought that's what I should strive for. Am I mistaken? This is a bit confusing. 0_o
Third, close, limited narrative point of view is within more than a few practiced or intuitive young readers' ranges. More experience, more facility for abstract cognition. Irony's many splendors start from sarcasm aptitudes at a young age. The cognitive dissonances, if reconciled, of middle childhood age double binds set up for enhanced abstract cognition and irony aptitudes.
Double-bind example: Dad away on business, Mom's dinner table discipline. "You know your father doesn't like elbows on the table." Huh? She does mind or doesn't mind? Or is the true motivation otherwise? Otherwise and more. Maybe even a deliberate double-bind lesson.
Some young people come too late to cognitive dissonance reconciliation experiences, develop little more than limited sarcasm aptitudes. From enhanced early cognitive inversion experience comes enhanced abstract cognition and irony aptitudes. Later ages may acquire an abstraction aptitude through deliberate efforts rather than natural processes.
I was fully abstract-clued in at a young age, though held back by not allowed to have any personal position and not allowed trial-and-error exploration and assertion of those positions. I was told, by parents, by teachers, by all and sundry, what to think, believe, do, know, feel. I understood at age five what the proverb "Little pitchers have big ears" meant, that adults often said about my childhood eavesdrop occasions. A precocious abstract cognition aptitude, that has increased since and served me well all my life.
Regards an "eXtrinsic-Drewish dictionary," dictionaries help; descriptive narratology texts decipher the labyrinthine cosmos. From Aristotle to infinity and beyond!
[ April 19, 2019, 05:44 PM: Message edited by: extrinsic ]
Posted by drew (Member # 11149) on :
-_-' First sentence and I'm back to using passive voice. I knew there's something wonky there.
The unhappy night shift ticket girl lamented at the nearly empty cinema while the audience in plush chairs before her enjoyed her favorite classic film.
I'll get it. I swear!
Posted by drew (Member # 11149) on :
The first line feels less wonky now, and also a couple other places I noticed I was lapsing back into passive voice. Here goes again....
The unhappy night shift ticket girl lamented at the nearly empty cinema while the audience in plush chairs before her enjoyed her favorite classic film. Well, most of them did. She had just slipped in to watch the movie and amusingly noted a teenage couple in the back row exploring their own plot lines. They didn't upset her. If they start distracting the other patrons, though she would tell Kieth; her boyfriend running the ancient projector moonlighted as usher. Old Bob Gantry is here again, and this is the cause of her displeasure. He is the town's resident philosopher drunk, and he always crumpled down in the seventh row to the far right of the theater, dressed in his shabby blue poncho and knit cap, a potent whiskey aura guaranteed his solitude.
Not sure if guaranteeing or guaranteed. :/
Posted by extrinsic (Member # 8019) on :
"The night shift ticket girl was unhappy that the cinema was nearly empty again, despite the fact that the audience in the plush chairs before her were enjoying her favorite classic film."
Static voice, is not passive voice, the sentence is active voice. Grammar voice is a complex and difficult topic. Passive and active voices are grammar handbook topics; static voice discussed only here at Hatrack and Seymour Chatman, Story and Discourse and Wayne Booth, The Rhetoric of Fiction, so far.
Ms. Dalton Woodbury introduced static and dynamic voice concepts to Hatrack for distinct labels about active voice to be diction and syntax confused for passive voice. Similar grammar handbook topics include definiteness and finiteness degrees.
Dynamic voice is an opposite of static voice.
Dynamic and active voice, robust enough, though a throwaway introduction sentence:
"The unhappy night shift ticket girl lamented at the nearly empty cinema while the audience in plush chairs before her enjoyed her favorite classic film."
Remote outsider narrator, there and overall, third-person, remote, limited, for now, for the latest fragment version. That traditional narrative point of view occasions closer and closer and middle and remote distance variants later on, and multiple viewpoint personas.
Another proverb for consideration, re bad things happen to good people: No good deed goes punished.
[ April 19, 2019, 06:47 PM: Message edited by: extrinsic ]
Posted by drew (Member # 11149) on :
Okay. It's clear I don't get this. I just put a hold on both of our host's books on writing. I'm hoping Characters and Viewpoints will lead to more eureka moments.
Posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (Member # 59) on :
I think "lamented" is too strong.
Sighed?
Shrugged?
(Frowned would be tempting, but if we're inside her point of view, we can't see her frown.)
Shook her head?
Also, "unhappy" and "lamented" in the same sentence is rather redundant. You probably don't need "unhappy."
Posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (Member # 59) on :
Using "was" and "were" in sentences does not mean you are using passive voice.
Passive voice is the term for sentences where the object of the sentence acts like the subject (as in "the man was bitten by the dog" - the dog is the true (active) subject of the sentence (the one who acts - in this case does the biting) and the man is the object), or when the subject of the sentence is left out (as in "mistakes were made" - the person or people who made the mistakes is/are the true (active) subject of the sentence).
Sentences with "was" and "were" are static (using "state of being" verbs), not necessarily passive.
I hope this helps, drew.
Posted by drew (Member # 11149) on :
Thank you Kathleen. I'll get a grip on these terms. The highly technical critiques eXtrinsic offers are quite intimidating to me, and I think diving in that deep at this point is more confusing to me than it is intended.
My education was incomplete due to the fact that different schools taught grammar at different times, and I moved from foster home to foster home so often that I would miss out on many key topics, especially in English and Math.
For a long time, I couldn't tell you what an adjective or adverb was, or how to properly apply rules of grammar to form proper sentences in any complex way. Much of what I "know" has been learned through context and self study, which is a poor substitute for proper education. It has been a point of persoal shame, because I am not unintelligent by most standards.
This book, English Grammar for Dummies, is a real boon for me. I believe when I get my understanding up to par, much of this confusion and frustration will melt away, and I can work more effectively towards completing this work.
Please forgive my ignorance. I promise it is living on borrowed time. Posted by extrinsic (Member # 8019) on :
quote:Originally posted by drew: --- I just put a hold on both of our host's books on writing. I'm hoping Characters and Viewpoints will lead to more eureka moments.
You're in for delightful treats and powerful and accessible craft method descriptions.
Commiserations for the burdensome expenses of useful reference and craft texts. For economic reasons, I borrowed craft books from local libraries, too, to sample if those had any helpful substance. If a local library did not have a copy, then borrowed through interlibrary loan. Several renewals for most of the regular circulation and interlibrary loans. Many of the books I wanted personal copies of ready to hand went on the to-buy list. If the budget could stand purchases, I bought.
Alas, the libraries hereabouts, anymore, don't do interlibrary loans for my circumstances. The public library eliminated the program. The alumni association ended university library affiliations. Yak-holes.
Now the library of extrinsic stocks many linear bookshelf feet of reference books, craft texts, companion novels, short story collections, and creative nonfiction essays, plus, archived online sources -- and sturdy self-made bookcases to hold the lot, on a budget. A lifetime accumulation, I built a story craft library piece-by-piece.
I've moved many times, felt like an orphan adrift then and now, and attended many diverse schools, too, though blessed, cursed by the more or less standardized curricula of private schools -- need-based scholarships -- preschool through seventh grade. All public schools thereafter through postgraduate study, far later than traditional college age, dusty-old-bones late in life, and also a lifetime accumulation of extant knowledge.
Anyway, drew, your grammar, composition, and story craft skills are above the average pall and are suitable to the vocation's demands. Not that long ago, my, etc., skills were at par with yours.
[ April 20, 2019, 01:03 PM: Message edited by: extrinsic ]
Posted by MerlionEmrys (Member # 11024) on :
Oh my Goddess, stop the world, I wanna get off.
extrinsic just complimented somebody's grammar.
This is clearly a sign of impending apocalypse.
You should be honored, drew, for however long you have left before our universe is devoured by tentacled horrors from beyond time and space.
Posted by MerlionEmrys (Member # 11024) on :
As to the current version, I agree that the first line is a teensy bit wonky, not sure why though-something about "night shift ticket girl," maybe.
I like the sentence about the couple making out particularly.
I think the "though" needs a comma after it as well, or could use one anyway. I could be wrong though.
The second part seems to shift from past tense to present.
And I think it's "guaranteeing."
Overall, I like it though. Nice and moody.
I'd like to add that, personally, I like setting the scene, and for me being in the character's "headspace" is not a total necessity. For me it's a wash between "in the head" and "setting the scene"-either are good, just depends on the story. Here, I feel you've combined them nicely.
I'd also add that, again for me and in my experience, it is very possible to capture visuals and ambiance in literature via description. I have entire authors who a large part of my love for their work is based on their visuals.
People (or at least me and the people I know) don't necessarily read stories solely to be carried along the plot by only relevant details, or to make the MC into their "avatar"-they also read them to feel, to experience moods and atmosphere, to be transported to another place and/or time or perhaps be reminded of one where they've already been.
I'm not saying don't learn the things presented here-a storyteller can never have too many tools-just don't get caught up in the idea that some styles/modes/methods/foci of writing/stories are "better" than others. They all have their place and can often be freely combined for better effect (something you seem to show signs of being good at.)
Posted by Princesisto (Member # 11113) on :
It's good to be able to see the text now, especially with the benefit of several rewrites.
First, I think it must be "lamented" not "lamented at". Then, that sentence needs commas: "The unhappy night shift ticket girl lamented the nearly empty cinema, while the audience, in plush chairs, enjoyed her favorite classic film. I don't think "before her" adds anything. "Well, most of them did." makes a nice relief after that long first sentence.
But I am left wondering a little "Why do I care whether she was unhappy that the cinema was nearly empty"? It doesn't catch the reader and make them say, "Hey, what is this? I want to know more."
It is almost always better to begin with an action: something happens. That something should make the reader curious to know more.
You are doing an almost systolic-diastolic rhythm of long, then short sentences. That is not bad and I have seen it recommended before for pacing. Yet some of the long sentences are too long and the modern reader will get bored. No one wants a blood pressure of 500 over 50.
The 3rd sentence, for example, is sort of cute but the reader can get lost in all that verbiage. Try "She had just slipped in to watch the movie but now noticed a teenaged couple at the back, acting out their own movie."
I think the sentence about Kieth adds nothing and beats the cute little aside to death.
I guess the Oxford comma in the next sentence is American usage. I don't want to start a 100 hour debate on the issue, which has never been finally resolved.
The final sentence: I thought you were leaving why she was displeased at his presence open, so as to attract the reader to find out why. But are you telling why in the last sentence, because he is a drunkard? If so, the rest of that horridly long sentence is unnecessary, description and all.
But I would say don't tell now why she is displeased. Stop with "the cause of her displeasure", let it sit a while and go on to tell us what happens in the cinema. These 13 lines go on a bit long and the reader might be saying by now "Nothing's happening here."
Hope that helps.
P
Posted by extrinsic (Member # 8019) on :
"though" punctuation depends on if a conjunction or a conjunctive adverb use.
English usage examples from Merriam-Webster's 11th Collegiate Dictionary:
Conjunction "while" 1 : <though they know the war is lost, they continue to fight Bruce Bliven> "even if" 2 : <though I may fail, I will try>
Adverb "however" or "nevertheless" <It's hard work. I enjoy it[,] though>
A Webster's error, skips the above comma. The listed uses are for conjunctive adverbs, not broad-definition adverbs, and take comma separation, or other apt punctuation, dash maybe.
From the latest fragment: "If they start distracting the other patrons, though[,] she would tell Kieth"
A conjunctive adverb "though" or "nevertheless" use, mid sentence, takes bookend commas.
Though many are the writers who leave out wanted punctuation to decrease bumpy syntax, as many realize apt punctuation's appeal strengths and realize bumpy syntax prompts revisions.
Connective tissue words, for prose, like "though," "nevertheless," "however," etc., want reconsideration or omission altogether. Conjunctions, conjunctive adverbs, particles, and prepositions want close consideration. Those are necessary idea connectors for impersonal and formal composition genres. For prose, those telegraph or force unnatural connections or are too sophisticated a diction for prose's personal, casual mannerisms, in general.
Posted by extrinsic (Member # 8019) on :
quote:Originally posted by Princesisto: I guess the Oxford comma in the next sentence is American usage. I don't want to start a 100 hour debate on the issue, which has never been finally resolved.
Actually, the consideration is about as resolved as the debate will ever likely be.
Oxford -- or Harvard -- the magnificent serial-list comma, is if used other than for journalism and its offspring or informal correspondence, for U.S. dialects. British, Commonwealth, and international English dialects are likewise. Consistent usages, though, vary as wild as the cosmos is broad.
Oxford or Harvard or serial-list styles: A, B, and [or, but, any conjunction] C. Journalism, etc.: A, B and C.
A comma that precedes a conjunction is the infamous Harvard, Oxford, or plain ole serial-list comma.
Posted by MerlionEmrys (Member # 11024) on :
Realistically, connective words also get used heavily in people's everyday thought and speech and so, to me, stripping them away too far can make a piece sound...odd. Overly formal or technical, like "robot speak." Especially dialogue or narration that's absorbed parts of a character's voice.
Depends on the setting and the character also though. A scientist or a by-the-book military guy might be more likely to talk/think/narrate that way than an average civilian lay young person.
[ April 20, 2019, 09:28 PM: Message edited by: MerlionEmrys ]
Posted by drew (Member # 11149) on :
quote:Originally posted by extrinsic: Commiserations for the burdensome expenses of useful reference and craft texts.
Thank you. The library is an excellent resource, especially with our inter-library loan program (my condolences), and the staff are more than happy to assist fledgling writers. There are also many resources online, such as this forum, though some are far more valuable than others. I personally find YouTube to be a fine source for educational material as well as entertainment, for those willing to deal with the dross.
quote:Originally posted by extrinsic: Anyway, drew, your grammar, composition, and story craft skills are above the average pall and are suitable to the vocation's demands. Not that long ago, my, etc., skills were at par with yours.
0_0 That's very encouraging. Thank you for the kind support, and the challenges. Posted by drew (Member # 11149) on :
quote:Originally posted by MerlionEmrys: You should be honored, drew, for however long you have left before our universe is devoured by tentacled horrors from beyond time and space.
I do! Let us make the most of the precious little time we have left. Posted by drew (Member # 11149) on :
quote:Originally posted by MerlionEmrys: As to the current version, I agree that the first line is a teensy bit wonky, not sure why though-something about "night shift ticket girl," maybe.
Yes, now that you point it out, that is very wonky. When I drop 'night shift' from the first sentence, it reads much better. If she's working, we can assume there are shifts, and the time of day isn't important right away.
quote:The ticket girl lamented...
I guess I as trying to cram in as much information into that first line as I could. I realize we don't need to know what time of day it is until it's time for departure. We're in a dark cinema, after all.
quote:Originally posted by MerlionEmrys: I think the "though" needs a comma after it as well, or could use one anyway. I could be wrong though.
You are not wrong. Comma added.
quote:The second part seems to shift from past tense to present.
Ah, you're right. Past tense it shall be. Unless placing the events in the now is more engaging? I'm unsure.
quote:Originally posted by MerlionEmrys: And I think it's "guaranteeing."
Cool. I think I had gone with that at first. Maybe my tense safu caused me some confusion there. Thanks.
quote:Originally posted by MerlionEmrys: Overall, I like it though. Nice and moody.
I'd like to add that, personally, I like setting the scene, and for me being in the character's "headspace" is not a total necessity. For me it's a wash between "in the head" and "setting the scene"-either are good, just depends on the story. Here, I feel you've combined them nicely.
Giddy joy. Someone likes it! It took much thought and reworking to get to this point, and I have this community to thank for tempering the writing. Your feedback really means a lot to me.
quote:Originally posted by MerlionEmrys: I'd also add that, again for me and in my experience, it is very possible to capture visuals and ambiance in literature via description. I have entire authors who a large part of my love for their work is based on their visuals.
People (or at least me and the people I know) don't necessarily read stories solely to be carried along the plot by only relevant details, or to make the MC into their "avatar"-they also read them to feel, to experience moods and atmosphere, to be transported to another place and/or time or perhaps be reminded of one where they've already been.
I understand there are a myriad of tastes and desires, and no matter how hard I work to improve myself, there will always be judgement. Picking the style critiques that resonate with me seems the best approach. Of course, I have to understand the landscape before I can claim good taste.
quote:Originally posted by MerlionEmrys: I'm not saying don't learn the things presented here-a storyteller can never have too many tools-just don't get caught up in the idea that some styles/modes/methods/foci of writing/stories are "better" than others. They all have their place and can often be freely combined for better effect (something you seem to show signs of being good at.)
Thanks. I get the impression that I've a decent shot at publication, if I'm willing to put in the effort to hone my craft, and am determined and willing to finish what I've begun. I will, and I am. That's in no small part due to quality feedback and guidance. I shudder to think how I would have fared in one of those other communities that were recommended to me. Posted by drew (Member # 11149) on :
quote:Originally posted by Princesisto: It's good to be able to see the text now, especially with the benefit of several rewrites.
Bullet dodger.
quote:Originally posted by Princesisto: First, I think it must be "lamented" not "lamented at". Then, that sentence needs commas: "The unhappy night shift ticket girl lamented the nearly empty cinema, while the audience, in plush chairs, enjoyed her favorite classic film. I don't think "before her" adds anything. "Well, most of them did." makes a nice relief after that long first sentence.
Lamented it shall be. When I replace it with 'mourned', it makes no sense to me with the ''at: "mourned at". Ick. Good eye.
The "before her" was recommended to establish her place in the scene as it relates to the audience. Actually, the recommendation was "around her", but she's standing at the far back, not sitting in the seats. If I omit that detail, the reader might think she's out in the lobby, where ticket girls should be. Perhaps I can work it in some other way.
quote:Originally posted by Princesisto: But I am left wondering a little "Why do I care whether she was unhappy that the cinema was nearly empty"? It doesn't catch the reader and make them say, "Hey, what is this? I want to know more."
It doesn't really add anything if we also see her lamenting. Removing makes the line read much better. Even more so with the edits applied from above. I left the "before her" in for now.
quote:The ticket girl lamented the nearly empty cinema, while the audience, in plush chairs before her, enjoyed her favorite classic film.
quote:Originally posted by Princesisto: It is almost always better to begin with an action: something happens. That something should make the reader curious to know more.
I could start with the moment her boyfriend sneaks in behind her and startles her by saying "Bob's got a date.". That's the first bit of action in the scene, and it's not far off from these 13 lines now. The very next paragraph, in fact.
quote:Originally posted by Princesisto: You are doing an almost systolic-diastolic rhythm of long, then short sentences. That is not bad and I have seen it recommended before for pacing. Yet some of the long sentences are too long and the modern reader will get bored. No one wants a blood pressure of 500 over 50.
Completely unintentional. I wasn't trying for it, though now that you point it out, I'll do my best to not make it a habit. Maybe just keep it in the beginning for subtle effect? Really good eye.
quote:Originally posted by Princesisto: The 3rd sentence, for example, is sort of cute but the reader can get lost in all that verbiage. Try "She had just slipped in to watch the movie but now noticed a teenaged couple at the back, acting out their own movie."
I was trying not to simply say there were making out, but perhaps I should. Seems cliche though. I kinda liked that "plot lines" could be a double entendre. Although, it does bring a little ego grin with it.
quote:She had just slipped in to watch the movie, and amusingly noted a teenaged couple in the back row, making out.
And should it be teenage or teenaged? My Merriam-Webster dictionary app has the same definition for both. If I were to hyphenate it, I guess teen-aged would be more appropriate, but it catches my eye when I read it. That could just be my eye. -_0
quote:Originally posted by Princesisto: I think the sentence about Kieth adds nothing and beats the cute little aside to death.
She isn't lamenting the tiny audience because not enough people attend a movie she fancies. She's lamenting the small audience because it means she will have to admit Bob, and she doesn't like Bob. I had the teenage couple tossed in for contrast, and I wanted to make it clear they were not the reason for her discontent. Hence the line about them not upsetting her. Then I considered that they might upset the audience, and she would likely note this, since she's an employee, and would comment to herself that Kieth might have to talk to them. Kieth makes a dramatic appearance in the next paragraph. I could cut him out of the first, and perhaps the entire comment about them possibly disturbing the audience. That actually might make the line "Bob was here again." more appropriate. Hrmm....
quote:They didn't upset her. Old Bob Gantry was here again.
That way, his mention would imply that he did upset her, which is what I do wish to imply. The Kieth bit sort of makes that unclear.
quote:Originally posted by Princesisto: I guess the Oxford comma in the next sentence is American usage. I don't want to start a 100 hour debate on the issue, which has never been finally resolved.
I don't have a can opener on me, so I'll leave those worms for someone else. I'll just try to remain consistent. I'm sure the readers will be fine with that.
quote:Originally posted by Princesisto: The final sentence: I thought you were leaving why she was displeased at his presence open, so as to attract the reader to find out why. But are you telling why in the last sentence, because he is a drunkard? If so, the rest of that horridly long sentence is unnecessary, description and all.
No no, not because he's a drunkard or homeless. She doesn't like his intrusive social faux pas, however, the whiskey on his breath doesn't make it easier for her. She feels trapped, unable to avoid his rambling tales and bits of wisdom, because she has to attend the ticket counter. If she didn't have to deal with him so often, or felt she could excuse herself from his company, she would likely find him rather adorable. Most people do.
The description of him is simply a description. I can move it elsewhere if it causes such confusion in the reader. I want it to be clear that she doesn't dislike his status, only his personality. He would rub her just as wrong if he were rich and well groomed.
quote:Originally posted by Princesisto: But I would say don't tell now why she is displeased. Stop with "the cause of her displeasure", let it sit a while and go on to tell us what happens in the cinema. These 13 lines go on a bit long and the reader might be saying by now "Nothing's happening here."
Hope that helps.
P
I think the limit of 13 lines is a bit too constraining. I can't fit everything in a scene into so few characters, and sometimes it feels like people want me to. I describe Bob, because I just introduced Bob, and he is pivotal to the drama which immediately takes place in the next paragraph.
If you could see the whole page as it would be in the book, you would not say nothing is happening, because dialogue is presently presented, and conflict starts. This kicks off the whole shebang and leads her directly to wind up on a riverbank in a strange magical world. I want Bob to give her some wisdom, and have it be satisfied far far far later in the story. Perhaps a sea tale, or perhaps a nugget of unpolished truth, not sure yet. Likely a bit of both.
Meh. I dunno. I'm still trying to figure this all out. I could be off the mark. I probably am.
Here's the opening with the suggested edits, well most of them. Removing the line about Kieth allows me to post the entire first paragraph again. Neat. I would delve into the film, but I haven't picked out which movie to use yet, so [INSERT MOVIE HERE] is about the best I've got. This is under 13 lines now, but until I pin down which film to use for the scene, it's about all I have without jumping into the dialogue with Kieth, which I can now see would not be appropriate without first describing the film.
Writer problems. I'll take 'em!
quote:The ticket girl lamented the nearly empty cinema, while the audience in plush chairs before her enjoyed her favorite classic film. Well, most of them did. She had just slipped in to watch the movie, and amusingly noted a teenaged couple in the back row, making out. They didn't upset her. Old Bob Gantry was here again. Galwin didn't care for the old sailor, but the owner let him sit in on cold nights like this, when his presence wouldn't disturb a tiny audience. The cost of admission was never mentioned when it came to old Bob.
I feel like I missed something, but I'm guessing someone will point it out. I have a dinner date, so I have to cut this short.
Thanks for your insights and critiques. Best community ever. Posted by extrinsic (Member # 8019) on :
The present descriptions for the dramatic import of the scene amount to Bob is an unintended oracle per Homer's Odyssey, a messenger scene also per Odyssey emulations, Charles Frazier, Cold Mountain, and Joel and Ethan Coen motion picture O Brother Where Art Thou?
Artful messenger scenes present off-kilter prophesies from peculiar oracles for events to come. The off-kilter nature poses reader appeal through comparisons between the prophesies and actual events when those unfold. Of course, the prophesies are spoken. Their setups are a challenge.
A drunken old salt suits the basics for an oracle scene setup. Though -- cut to the chase, as proverbial they say in Hollywood, as soon as practical. Or, lose the pump primers, as they say in writing studio workshops.
"lamented" Is that part of a teenager's informal vocabulary? Narrator sophistication maybe. Youngsters these days and for some many years say "hated," "sucked," or similar other terms.
Same for "amusingly noted". Teenager? A narrator extra lens filter anyway, akin to She saw.
"Old Bob Gantry was here again. Galwin didn't care for the old sailor".
Misses or one-dimensional overworks, rather, how Galwin regards Bob. As explained above, Galwin thinks his long-winded intrusions when she's a captive audience late-show ticket clerk are presumptions on her personal space.
"The cost of admission" holds portentous overall proverb and chapter subtitle potentials, though incomplete. A stray quote of similar substance, "You find out your mistakes from an audience that pays admission." - Edgar Bergen
That's a semantic inversion irony. Bergen suffered the "costs of admission" and close audience attention for his Charlie McCarthy ventriloquism flops.
Say, Galwin's costs of admission through a portentous portal into an unexpected milieu? The cost of admission to [place]? Some place's name that foreshadows prophesy and is a semantic inversion irony? A stray thought of the sort: The cost of admission for a free lunch.
Posted by drew (Member # 11149) on :
This is rambling, and probably signals the thread is drawing to an end. But....
I peg Galwin to be about 17, above average intelligence, interested in a few peculiar things like classic movies, old time rag, and forgotten books. I don't feel her using the words 'sucks' or 'cool' very often, unless she's trying to fit into a group that does. Also, I'm fairly certain this takes place pre-2000. No smart phones, no massive internet, small community vibe with more TVs than radios. Kids play outside, mom's don't fret. The mall is The Place. That sort of thing.
She's basically me before life sucked the fun out of living. Well, all three main characters are, but she reflects me at that age the most, the hopeful me that was super interested. We don't share interests. Mine were more computers and art and game design, but she has the same passion for hers that I had. She would much rather read a book that hasn't seen the sun in 45 years, than go out drinking or hanging out at the mall.
I should have her reflect on the particular points she dislikes about Bob's character, and not just state 'She didn't care'.
I had first invented Bob in order to bring the theme of home, homelessness and the search for place in the world into the story early. The setting of the theater allowed a film to reflect on the idea of a portal journey.
Sad note: My first idea for a setting was a stupid party... uhg. I've come to learn not to trust my first ideas.
Once I had Bob, however, I felt I needed to give him some satisfying purpose for the tale, rather than being simply a piece of furniture that fits a theme. So, I was going to give him that opportunity to annoy Galwin again, but have it speak a truth to her later on.
Then we went down the maritime path with the water metaphors, and it all sort of snowballed into this very compelling idea you present.
He was never intended to be portentous or play the role of fate seer. I'm trying to avoid fate or prophesy. However, wise words are still wise, and are often not realized as such until much later in life, from my experience.
I could have her realize his wisdom as she dies, and have that be her cost. Very very interesting. O_O
I'll have to mull this one over. Neat concept, eXtrinsic. Posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (Member # 59) on :
drew, ignorance is only a problem for people who won't admit their ignorance and refuse to do something to remedy it. You are not behaving like that.
Something to consider in your story start:
if Galwin is the night show ticket girl, she doesn't need to look over the almost-empty theater to see that Bob Gantry is in his usual seat.
She will know that Bob Gantry has been admitted because she is the one who has to issue him a ticket without his paying for it, or she is the one who has to let him pass her and go into the theater without giving her a ticket.
Maybe you need to start with her taking tickets (or selling them, or whatever it is she does as the ticket girl), and then seeing Bob Gantry walk in the front door of the movie house. Show us her reaction to him as soon as she sees him.
Posted by drew (Member # 11149) on :
quote:Originally posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury: drew, ignorance is only a problem for people who won't admit their ignorance and refuse to do something to remedy it. You are not behaving like that.
quote:Originally posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury: Something to consider in your story start:
if Galwin is the night show ticket girl, she doesn't need to look over the almost-empty theater to see that Bob Gantry is in his usual seat.
She will know that Bob Gantry has been admitted because she is the one who has to issue him a ticket without his paying for it, or she is the one who has to let him pass her and go into the theater without giving her a ticket.
Maybe you need to start with her taking tickets (or selling them, or whatever it is she does as the ticket girl), and then seeing Bob Gantry walk in the front door of the movie house. Show us her reaction to him as soon as she sees him.
You know, I considered that, but having already regressed two scenes, I feared this could become a trend. Although, that would allow her to comment on the film, how much she likes it and why. Perhaps to Bob's date, Miss Pinkerton. Hrmmm...
I'm currently pouring over old movies and music, trying to find what they're watching. Maybe it doesn't have to fit the cross-world adventure theme exactly. I've already tossed out the idea of it needing to be black and white. The Sting has some good ragtime, but I think I can do better.
Posted by drew (Member # 11149) on :
Interesting.... One of my absolute favorite movies when I was a child was Disney's Bedknobs and Broomsticks. It doesn't get nearly enough attention, and it does feature 3 orphans, magic, travel to another land... and of course Angela Lansbury. I may use that. It's a cute movie, and has a nice underwater scene with a catchy tune. Although, I'm far more partial to Substitutiary Locomotion. Unless I find a better title, this might be the one.
Posted by Princesisto (Member # 11113) on :
I usually don't debate critiques or replies but you asked me some questions and showed some misunderstandings about what I was advising, so I shall briefly reply here.
I must say everyone is on such good behaviour in this thread it seems like another site, so I don't mind "rising again" here so much.
DREW:"The "before her" was recommended to establish her place in the scene as it relates to the audience. Actually, the recommendation was "around her", but she's standing at the far back, not sitting in the seats. If I omit that detail, the reader might think she's out in the lobby, where ticket girls should be. Perhaps I can work it in some other way."
But "before her" sounds like she's her majesty the Queen! You can put in a brief sentence at the start of the paragraph saying that she comes into the cinema to watch the flick. That shuts the matter down. The readers here really love chronological order: once I wrote that my main character started talking and later in the sentence wrote that she had put on her wireless microphone before sitting down at the piano. I got hit with kilogrammes of bricks.
DREW:
"I could start with the moment her boyfriend sneaks in behind her and startles her by saying "Bob's got a date.""
Right! Right! Spot on! Then we don't have to read Lamentations or any other book of the Bible. And the reader says: "Oh! Who is Bob and why is that a problem?" Then they start entertaining themselves by speculating that Bob is her husband, her still-married father, or some other less-than-innocuous scenario.
But if you start with dialogue, there's another wheelie-bin full of bricks rolling around with your name on it . . . .
Here's my proposal for the first few lines:
"What's-her-name sneaked into the cinema, as it was night and no one was at her ticket counter, nor would there be.
Suddenly, what's-his-name whispered into her ear, over her shoulder: "Bob's got a date.""
Try that on.
PRINCESISTO:
"You are doing an almost systolic-diastolic rhythm of long, then short sentences."
DREW:
"Completely unintentional. I wasn't trying for it, though now that you point it out, I'll do my best to not make it a habit. Maybe just keep it in the beginning for subtle effect? Really good eye."
No! No! No! I am not saying to stop it! It's a good literary technique.
I am saying "Shorten the long sentences because your reader can't survive to get to the short ones." The long sentences can still be longER than the short ones but not by such a wide margin.
DREW:
"I was trying not to simply say there were making out, but perhaps I should."
No, I got the "action" going on. If you're quite keen on "plot lines", that's OK. If you are putting her entry to the cinema at the start of this paragraph, you won't need my first clause.
Then try:
"She noticed a teenaged couple near her at the back of the cinema, running their own plot lines, without a care for the movie."
I think that's exponentially better than stating the obvious that they were "making out".
DREW:
"She had just slipped in to watch the movie, and amusingly noted a teenaged couple in the back row, making out. And should it be teenage or teenaged?"
Looking at the internet it's all over the lot. If you're a bullet dodger, say "teen couple", which seems to be most popular on the net.
DREW:
"She isn't lamenting the tiny audience because not enough people attend a movie she fancies. She's lamenting the small audience because it means she will have to admit Bob, and she doesn't like Bob. I had the teenage couple tossed in for contrast, and I wanted to make it clear they were not the reason for her discontent. Hence the line about them not upsetting her. Then I considered that they might upset the audience, and she would likely note this, since she's an employee, and would comment to herself that Kieth might have to talk to them. Kieth makes a dramatic appearance in the next paragraph. I could cut him out of the first, and perhaps the entire comment about them possibly disturbing the audience. That actually might make the line "Bob was here again." more appropriate. Hrmm...." . . . They didn't upset her. Old Bob Gantry was here again. That way, his mention would imply that he did upset her, which is what I do wish to imply. The Kieth bit sort of makes that unclear."
Having read this twice, I think it's Shakespearean: "much ado about nothing".
When you start the story with "Bob's got a date" as I proposed, I think it will resolve itself, as you will have to describe the issue with Bob there and then.
DREW:
"... the Oxford comma ..."
Short answer: you decide but yes, do be consistent.
The author has prima facie jurisdiction to decide all such questions but, when you want to submit, look at your chosen publisher's guidelines: many publishers have a policy on this matter, for or against. If they state no policy, they will normally accept your decision. In general, American publishers seem to like Oxford commas more than Commonwealth ones.
DREW:
"No no, not because he's a drunkard or homeless. She doesn't like his intrusive social faux pas, however, the whiskey on his breath doesn't make it easier for her. She feels trapped, unable to avoid his rambling tales and bits of wisdom, because she has to attend the ticket counter. If she didn't have to deal with him so often, or felt she could excuse herself from his company, she would likely find him rather adorable. Most people do. The description of him is simply a description. I can move it elsewhere if it causes such confusion in the reader. I want it to be clear that she doesn't dislike his status, only his personality. He would rub her just as wrong if he were rich and well groomed."
Again, Shakespearean, in the worst sort of way: but if you put the "Bob's got a date" in the first paragraph and deal with him there, maybe you can briefly state what you want to state about him. What you have told me above is that now you have got one sentence standing in for a giant dollop of backstory: that is why I got lost and most other readers would.
DREW:
"I think the limit of 13 lines is a bit too constraining. I can't fit everything in a scene into so few characters, and sometimes it feels like people want me to."
Too right! That's one of many reasons I stopped doing it.
"If you could see the whole page as it would be in the book, you would not say nothing is happening, because dialogue is presently presented, and conflict starts."
Quite willing! Use itsjack2017@yandex.com
"This kicks off the whole shebang and leads her directly to wind up on a riverbank in a strange magical world."
Now THAT's interesting! We don't get a clue about it in this irrelevant snippet about the ticket girl surveilling teeners who are snogging in the cinema . . . .
DREW:
"The ticket girl lamented the nearly empty cinema, while the audience in plush chairs before her enjoyed her favorite classic film. Well, most of them did. She had just slipped in to watch the movie, and amusingly noted a teenaged couple in the back row, making out. They didn't upset her. Old Bob Gantry was here again. Galwin didn't care for the old sailor, but the owner let him sit in on cold nights like this, when his presence wouldn't disturb a tiny audience. The cost of admission was never mentioned when it came to old Bob."
What you have here is wide of the mark. She's still lamenting but I have to read your author's notes to understand why or even care a little. The sentence with "amusingly" and "making out" is off for the reasons I stated far above. Then saying she didn't mind, in this context, makes it immaterial. Who is Galwin, the ticket girl or the cinema owner? There is not enough here about the relationship between the girl and Bob to make their mention important to the reader, although your notes suggest it is a central part of the book, and you still portray Bob like a no-hoper who lives in the road.
Final word from Princesisto: Follow your own advice about putting Bob in the first paragraph, as in my draft above. That sorts out a lot in the rest of the selection. By the end of the second paragraph, the reader needs to understand who Bob really is and why he is important to the ticket girl (her name would also be a pleasure).
P
Posted by drew (Member # 11149) on :
Much of this first part is here simply to establish theme and indicate genre. The film and Bob are meant to show in microcosm, what the book will be about, more or less. I may have lost something in trying to build that idea up.
Kathleen advised possibly taking it back one more scene. That can still start with dialogue, allow us to see her selling tickets, so naming her 'ticket girl' would be unecessary. I can have her react naturally to Bob as he enters, making his behavior an act we see play out, instead of a reflection in her mind. I can introduce Bob's date, with Galwin talking briefly about their mutual love of the film, to establish that. Then we can follow Galwin in real time as she sneaks into the cinema to watch, get startled by Kieth, and... yeah.
I believe that would be a more natural way to start, and should lay your concerns about the above to rest. The more I consider your critique, the better an idea it sounds to have the book start in the lobby. I can begin right with Gantry entering, or hrm.... Still need to make it pop from the start.
If I end the chapter with her fall, as a result of heeding Bob's wisdom, perhaps even thinking about him as she dies, it might be best to open the chapter with him as well, using Bob as bookends to encapsulate the chapter. Begin and end with Bob on her mind. Hrmm.... I think I like that idea a lot.
Thank you Princesisto. Posted by drew (Member # 11149) on :
When I consider all the events, it occurs to me that the pivotal event that changes everything is the breaking of the film stock. This is either a chance event, or a result of Kieth's decision to leave the projection booth. I really want it to stem directly from Galwin's choices. I may have to rework it so she calls him out of the booth, instead of it being his decision. Hrmm... that teen couple could be useful here. I'll have to think about this some more.
Posted by drew (Member # 11149) on :
Ah-ha! I think I've got it. I originally had Galwn get upset at Keith because he wasn't as torn up about the film breaking as she was. This always seemed wrong to me. Projectionists tend to be very passionate about the work they do, and it felt ingenuous that he would be so calous. But what if it's the other way around? What if he blames her for pulling him out of the booth, and he leaves her to walk home alone. It's his job on the line, after all. This would make the event stem from her decisions, not his. Hrmmmm... Her decision to call him down would have to be a good one, in her mind. If I have the teen couple actually causing a disturbance, forcing her to address that as a good employee, then it could still be the actions of a good person, just doing her job. Plus, that would add some conflict too. I think this works so much better than my first idea. Yes. First ideas are not very good, I've come to understand.
I realize this section isn't for discussing plot. :/ I'll go write up my final opening draft and get back to you with a more appropriate post. Just working out this thread of ideas helps me to see it better. I'll refrain from making this a habit. :|
Posted by extrinsic (Member # 8019) on :
Princesto might mean, if a first sentence is a dialogue line, might that be the dread speech (or thought) from a disembodied mind -- all too common.
"lament," verb or noun, means an aural, visual, or both display of bereavement.
The likewise dreaded scene-to-scene backward regression tries for an aptest start time, place, and dramatic situation. Too easy to regress a start to ab ovo, from an egg's conception.
The standard guidance, write a raw draft through and through anyway, then review for rewrites and revisions after the draft enjoys a fermentation break, suits the challenge of an aptest start strategy.
A plan-intuition-both writer might ask up front what is a story's destination, end, outcome, payoff, what a story is truly about. Message is, ultimately, the substantive facet of all the former. A milieu emphasis, likewise, all the former, ends upon a return to a previous normal routine or establishes a normal routine within a new milieu and, either way, a discovered moral truth and life-lesson learned message.
The former above, example of excellence, Mark Twain, A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court; the latter, Cormac McCarthy, The Road.
Therefore, setup of a setting's (time, place, situation) routine interruption is a highmark for a milieu emphasis story, novel, or narrative essay. Actually, any story wants a routine-interruption outset setup. Another writing workshop proverb: Three hundred sixty-five days a year, the moment that's markedly different is a story's start.
Considerations for a media type, a movie, as it were, for the novel that parallels the interruption setup:
Extant movies are subject to copyright. Title names can be used, some limited paraphrases can be used, though limited to incidental uses or social commentary purposes: parody, lampoon, etc. Films from before 1924 are now public domain. January 1st each year hence, the copyright year lapse date advances a year: January 1st, 2020, all works from prior to 1925 enter the public domain, etc.
Such media uses want relevance throughout a whole or are otherwise throwaways. Once and done and over at a start leaves audiences to wonder, if so much word count expended, emphasized, that is, the motif(s) must be important, where's the later relevance?
A device, known as False Documents, invents fictive media that is real-world within a story's milieu: fictive films, novels, poems, diaries, songs, essays, memos, letters, email, websites, encyclopedias, dictionary entries, commercials, ship's logs, technology, consumer goods, magic spells, magazines, etc., any media, any material invented for dramatic effect and to validate a narrative's reality imitation, also known as verisimilitude and several other labels.
Kurt Vonnegut's alter-ego Kilgore Trout published False Document missives in Vonnegut's milieus, and were published in Venus on the Half-Shell within the milieu. The novel escaped from the fictive milieu in 1975, by Vonnegut consent, published by Philip José Farmer. An uncommon example of ostension: folklore artifacts become real-world real fact.
A consideration(s) is whether or not to invent a movie that is Galwin's favorite, whether or not the theater scene occasions a routine interruption setup for a milieu emphasis, and what of the start time, place, and situation occasions an early enough interruption setup that readers soon realize before Galwin.
[ April 21, 2019, 01:35 PM: Message edited by: extrinsic ]
Posted by Jay Greenstein (Member # 10615) on :
quote:To play devil's advocate, this scene isn't ended in thirteen lines. Unless there's something I'm missing. There's probably something I'm missing.
What you’re missing is that readers aren’t conscripts, they’re volunteers. They won’t read to the end of the scene unless you make them want to. In general, a reader arrives with mild curiosity, that fades, line by line, unless you replace it by active interest. And since they’re surrounded by thousands of other books, all shouting, “Read me, I’m better,” the reader is on a hair-trigger. Bore them for a line while you’re auditioning; lecture them for a line; confuse them, and the audition is over. As Sol Stein put it: “A novel is like a car—it won’t go anywhere until you turn on the engine. The “engine” of both fiction and nonfiction is the point at which the reader makes the decision not to put the book down. The engine should start in the first three pages, the closer to the top of page one the better.”
quote: You're referring to the "Writing Fiction for Dummies" book, correct?
No, the article was condensed from, Dwight Swain’s, Techniques of the Selling Writer.
Posted by drew (Member # 11149) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jay Greenstein: What you’re missing is that readers aren’t conscripts, they’re volunteers. They won’t read to the end of the scene unless you make them want to. In general, a reader arrives with mild curiosity, that fades, line by line, unless you replace it by active interest. And since they’re surrounded by thousands of other books, all shouting, “Read me, I’m better,” the reader is on a hair-trigger. Bore them for a line while you’re auditioning; lecture them for a line; confuse them, and the audition is over.
I never thought of it that way. I'm competing for attention on the shelf, and there are many heavyweights to contend with. No pressure!
quote:Originally posted by Jay Greenstein: No, the article was condensed from, Dwight Swain’s, Techniques of the Selling Writer.
Ah. I shall add it to the shelf, then. Thank you for the clarification. Posted by drew (Member # 11149) on :
quote:Originally posted by extrinsic: Princesto might mean, if a first sentence is a dialogue line, might that be the dread speech (or thought) from a disembodied mind -- all too common.
You're probably right. I think the dialogue I have is not of this sort. I hope. 0_0
quote:Originally posted by extrinsic: "lament," verb or noun, means an aural, visual, or both display of bereavement.
I've eliminated the word from the draft, and I shall reserve it for more apt situations. It's pretty strong, and as you say, observable. Her thoughts are not. Thanks.
quote:Originally posted by extrinsic: The likewise dreaded scene-to-scene backward regression tries for an aptest start time, place, and dramatic situation. Too easy to regress a start to ab ovo, from an egg's conception.
The standard guidance, write a raw draft through and through anyway, then review for rewrites and revisions after the draft enjoys a fermentation break, suits the challenge of an aptest start strategy.
I have the opening scene set. I dare not regress any further. I believe I was needlessly worrying about it. It makes complete sense to start with admission, I see that now. It's, well... you'll see.
quote:Originally posted by extrinsic: A plan-intuition-both writer might ask up front what is a story's destination, end, outcome, payoff, what a story is truly about. Message is, ultimately, the substantive facet of all the former. A milieu emphasis, likewise, all the former, ends upon a return to a previous normal routine or establishes a normal routine within a new milieu and, either way, a discovered moral truth and life-lesson learned message.
I can't seem to avoid that monomyth, no matter how I try. Shucks. Well, if the shoe fits....
quote:Originally posted by extrinsic: Therefore, setup of a setting's (time, place, situation) routine interruption is a highmark for a milieu emphasis story, novel, or narrative essay. Actually, any story wants a routine-interruption outset setup. Another writing workshop proverb: Three hundred sixty-five days a year, the moment that's markedly different is a story's start.
"Then suddenly, everything changed." <- story starts here. I do understand this much, but I also recognize the opening doesn't always match that moment precisely. Sometimes there's a little prelude, introduction, or other setup that immediately leads into the story.
If I were to start right at the moment everything changed, she would be sliding across the hood of a car in the opening line. I would have to use reflection or a flashback to establish her old life, as I was forced to do when she was on that riverbank, prior to these many rewrites. Powerful? Yes. Best? Perhaps.
I don't know. It feels like a cheap fish hook to me. A parlor trick designed to fool the reader into thinking they like the story. I'm not comfortable playing cheap tricks just to knock out the other books on the shelf. Maybe that's foolish, but I don't write because I'm wily or wise.
If the reader isn't willing to give me a little time to turn down the house lights and raise the curtain, I don't think we should be seeing each other. Crass, but it's how I feel. I did say in my introduction that I could rub some people wrong with my sense of morality. I understand if this point of view loses me some respect. I won't deny my faults. :|
quote:Originally posted by extrinsic: Considerations for a media type, a movie, as it were, for the novel that parallels the interruption setup:
Extant movies are subject to copyright. Title names can be used, some limited paraphrases can be used, though limited to incidental uses or social commentary purposes: parody, lampoon, etc. Films from before 1924 are now public domain. January 1st each year hence, the copyright year lapse date advances a year: January 1st, 2020, all works from prior to 1925 enter the public domain, etc.
Such media uses want relevance throughout a whole or are otherwise throwaways. Once and done and over at a start leaves audiences to wonder, if so much word count expended, emphasized, that is, the motif(s) must be important, where's the later relevance?
It's funny. I was going to demonstrate for you that I didn't need to name the film, or describe it any recognizable way, for it to serve the purpose I intended it to. I began writing a simple exchange between Miss Pinkerton and Galwin to show this, and well... it turned into the entire first chapter. It sort of just wrote itself. It was really easy, and I was excited to write it. I'm even more excited to have someone read it.
On that note, here is my final opening scene. I can't imagine changing it to any other time in the story. It just works so well, and does everything I wanted to and more. It even incorporates your "cost of admission" so well, it's downright spooky. The ending paragraphs of the chapter actually make me well up a bit. 0_0 That's probably just me, though. I don't know how a reader would respond until I let a few at it. I hope they make it to that point. I'm honestly curious if it has the same effect.
"I'm excited to see this one!" Miss Pinkerton exclaimed, as she handed the ticket girl her money.
"Are you familiar with it?" Galwin asked, handing her a ticket for the last show.
"Oh yes! Three orphans off on a magical adventure? It's one of my favorites."
"Mine too," Galwin said.
Miss Pinkerton, smiling, turned and entered the cinema. She was a sweet old woman, but a little lonely since Mr. Pinkerton passed. Galwin was glad she still came to the cinema.
She had the shutter pulled halfway down, ready to close the booth for the night, when old Bob Gantry sauntered into view. She pushed the shutter back up with a sigh.
Eh? EH? Posted by EmmaSohan (Member # 10917) on :
quote:Originally posted by drew: I never thought of it that way. I'm competing for attention on the shelf, and there are many heavyweights to contend with. No pressure!
Yes, that competition is nearly impossible at every step. But once they've read your first sentence, you have the advantage -- your book is in their hands. You second sentence is very convenient.
So your opening just has to be good enough to keep the reader reading. It shouldn't give them a reason to stop. I'm not saying that's easy to do. But it doesn't require histrionics.
And your book has to appeal to only some readers. Apparently most readers do not like Twilight, that's why it sold only 120 million copies [Edited: for the series], but that still worked out well for the author.
[ April 22, 2019, 04:13 PM: Message edited by: EmmaSohan ]
Posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (Member # 59) on :
quote:Originally posted by drew: I realize this section isn't for discussing plot.
I can certainly serve that purpose. Why create a separate topic to discuss the same story? You are welcome to get feedback on the plot and any other aspect of the story in a Fragments topic.
Posted by extrinsic (Member # 8019) on :
"'I'm excited to see this one!' Miss Pinkerton exclaimed, as she handed the ticket girl her money."
Speech from a disembodied mind, said-bookism "exclaimed," "as" correlation conjunction misuse that causes a fused sentence run-on and a not-simultaneous mistake and causation inversion.
Money handed to Galwin first, then a minor setting detail about the ticket booth that expresses an emotional commentary of Galwin's, then Pinkerton's dialogue line, is a logical and possible tension setup sequence and possible narrative distance closes from Galwin's personal external perceptions and thought presences. A template worth consideration anyway.
Ms. Pinkerton's scene presence for the latest fragment would be a throwaway if Bob's close in proximity presence were a throwaway feature, too. Otherwise, the proximal nature remotely intimates they will rendezvous in the theater. Pinkerton's excitement also suggests the movie is not what she's excited about -- prior arrangements afoot!? Some stronger cue for readers might be wanted, not that Galwin need know yet. Maybe Pinkerton shows Bob an unexpected romantic kindness? Pays his admission ticket though disguises her true motives from Galwin? This would be a bridge scene to a later bridge scene to the later main action scenes.
[ April 22, 2019, 05:51 PM: Message edited by: extrinsic ]
Posted by Grumpy old guy (Member # 9922) on :
Drew, tip number one, in flashing lights, don't start with dialogue if it can at all be avoided.
Question: What has any of this to do with the real story? You know, the one where she ends up in a different reality. And do any of these hangers-on come with her? I'm betting no.
Phil.
[ April 23, 2019, 07:45 AM: Message edited by: Grumpy old guy ]
Posted by drew (Member # 11149) on :
I found that can opener. Oh, look. Worms!
The last three replies have contained the advice, "Don't open with dialogue," with Grumpy's being the most blatant. The manner in which you've all given it, however, leads me to suspect that you don't really believe it to be true. Princesisto doesn't want to talk about it, extrinsic fears it, and Grumpy old guy dressed it up. If you thought it good advice, would you not plainly give it, with some mention of why, beyond it being dreaded and disembodied?
"They're made of meat."
It seems you're trying to convince yourselves, as much as me, that this should be the case, and yet many fine stories exist that seem to defy it, or even celebrate it. I may not know writing, but I do know people. Cognitive dissonance seems afoot.
I thought this was the real story. You have the ending up bit, but where do we start it out? Twenty years or so ago, when I first tried to start this story, she was about to cross the bridge. I painted a nice scene of her reflecting on the night's events that led her to be walking home down a dark country road late at night in the drizzling rain. It was clunky and full of flashbacks to explain how she got here. It didn't offer a way to show her character. It was pretty close to "where everything changed", and it didn't work for me.
Then when I tried again, I put her on the riverbank in the strange world, more as an attempt to avoid the monomyth than anything else, and it still required flashbacks and reflections to establish how she got there. Again, random character we should care about, but don't. It also lacked any genre or thematic indicators.
So I took it back the the theaters, and then again to the ticket booth. It wasn't until the ticket booth that I found a start that required no previous scene to setup how we got here, and I could tell it from here to the riverbank in real time. It allowed us time to meet Galwin as she is, doing things in character. That seems like a story beginning to me.
A new life, and all that she loses, requires some establishment of the old life and all that she stands to lose, for the new life to have any real meaning. Honestly, what is more interesting?
Anonymous girl struck by car? "Everything Changes" Random character we know little about struck by car? "Everything is About to Change" Galwin the ticket girl who we just witnessed lose her job, boyfriend, ride home and chance to see her favorite movie, struck by car? "Everything is Changing"
:/
The opening line of dialogue, I especially like, because it serves as a mirror for the reader. It says, "I'm a reflection of your anticipation, as this story is a reflection of you.". The entire chapter is short, with lots of things leading one into the next. I think it has really fast pacing, and I'm hoping it serves to suck the reader down the drain and spit them out onto that riverbank with Galwin before they know what hit them. Sort of like how she dies.
Every character I name plays a key role in sending her along, even the teen couple who are only ever referred to as Romeo and Juliet have a part. Gantry is the theme and the threshhold. Pinkerton is the mirror and the end, and Keith represents in character, her life being lost. Romeo is literally the vehicle that takes her there. I don't think I can start this story without them all, and while none of them physically join her, she does bring them with her.
And with this reply, I've likely ostracized myself. Good worms, though.
[ April 23, 2019, 08:23 AM: Message edited by: drew ]
Posted by extrinsic (Member # 8019) on :
Dialogue without dramatic physical context beforehand or aptly simultaneous, contemporaneous, or sequential is as common as breath across literature. Oh. So-and-so does it; then okay, that's how it's done. Feels right.
Many first sentence dialogue lines launch full ahead, show this scene is a dialogue scene and that's about the full extent of it: conversation for conversation's social pleasantries' sakes. Many other first sentence dialogue lines are dramatic as well. That -- an ideal for a dialogue line at the very first outset.
The several past fragments move away from third, close, limited and more toward third, remote, several indistinct personas, narrator foremost. That's a traditional choice, yet asks for several stronger and different characterization features: in that circumstance, narrator, Galwin, Pinkerton, the ticket booth, Bob, and the dramatic situation itself foremost. Next, the theater auditorium, the sparse crowd, the teenage sweethearts, and Keith, too. Uh-oh, population explosion and all are stone statues.
Pinkerton, Bob, and the ticket booth have near term relevance, not long term; she, he, and the booth are extras, want little characterization development or emphasis, bare verisimilitude features and nonetheless potent drama at that. The voice-over narrator is a mere opaque block in the way of the views of Galwin from her insider perspectives. Traditional narrators, from a stage-left dim-lit lectern, at a forefront express emotional-social-moral commentary about specimens observed, express an attitude, that is: Tone.
Social pleasantry dialogue is as dry and flat as beginner foreign language instruction:
"Hola, Isabel," dijo Juan, "Como estas?" "Ça va," Isabel dit que, "merci, Jean. Et toi?" "Pasa nada," dijo Juan.
General consensus, several responders note the same thing(s), are dialogue from disembodied minds and "cut to the chase." That saying was first used by print shops to mean skip proof prints and proofreads, go direct to production print, cut out the frivolity and get on with the main action. The "chase" for printers is the frame a galley of type is fixed into for platen printer machines, since Gutenberg's original press. Hollywood adopted the saying to mean get to the car or foot chase already, a metaphor derived from the original pragmatic expression: Let the main production begin.
Pinkerton and Galwin can be as pleasant and polite as Ms. Etiquette at a formal cotillion, though their conversation wants dramatic physical detail descriptions and dramatic subtext leavened between the lines, that set up for Galwin's transfer to another locale.
Prose's several expression modes: Description, Introspection (thought), Action, Narration, Emotion, Sensation, Summarization, Exposition, Conversation, Recollection, Explanation, and Transition, DIANE'S SECRET. Action, Emotion, and Sensation are foremost; Description, a close second, Conversation and Introspection, nearby third; Recollection next, followed by Transition; last in sequence, Narration, Summarization, and Explanation.
Add dramatic emphases' seven aspects: Setting, Plot, Idea, Character, Event, and Discourse, SPICED; and drama's three factors: Antagonism, Causation, and Tension, ACT; mnemonic device: DIANE'S SECRET SPICED ACT. Or act out, act up, make a spectacle, enACT dramatic performances on the prose page.
Social pleasantries can be dramatic -- if antagonal, causal, and tensional. Antagonal, for example, if Pinkerton and Galwin have ulterior motives, shown through subtext. Say, Pinkerton is Bob's movie date and doesn't want anyone to know. Want is antagonal motivation, and problem. Likewise, what's Galwin's motives at the ticket booth? Maybe prurient interests; Galwin wants to know who, if anyone, is Pinkerton seeing? Though what any of those have to do with Galwin's transfer to another locale are beyond me. How prepared Galwin is or isn't for a severe, pendent routine interruption?
As proverbial they say for stage drama and motion pictures, actors to director, "What's my motivation?" Prose writer is director, script writer or script interpreter, stage designer and setter, costume designer, makeup artist, prop builder, camera people, stunt persons, orchestra, ushers, grips, caterers, extras, actors, etc.
[edited] By the way, not subject to ostracism per moi, maybe a few data points gathered for future response strategies.
[ April 23, 2019, 02:37 PM: Message edited by: extrinsic ]
Posted by ACertainWriter (Member # 11157) on :
So I'll jump here, I hope I don't trod on anyone's toes
quote: "I'm excited to see this one!" Miss Pinkerton exclaimed, as she handed the ticket girl her money.
I'm not against opening with dialogue per so, but it doesn't work for me here, because the sayer doesn't say anything particularly original or seemingly important. The words 'exclaimed' would also be a warning sign for me. The exclamation mark already does the job of signalling that it's an exclamation, marking it with a dialogue tag is redundant and draws attention to itself.
quote:"Are you familiar with it?" Galwin asked, handing her a ticket for the last show.
At this point I get frustrated about not knowing who those characters are. Why is Pinkerton a 'Miss' but Galwin doesn't have a title? If this is third omniscient, why isn't it consistent? If it's third limited, then whose POV are we in? And most importantly, why should I care about these two going to the cinema?
quote: "Oh yes! Three orphans off on a magical adventure? It's one of my favorites."
"Mine too," Galwin said.
Similarly to the lines above, without any context this part seems pointless to me. Is them liking a generic fantasy movie important to the plot for some reason? If it is, I cannot fathom why.
It's OK to have some scenes with characters just hanging out, but after the reader already bought into the characters, not outright in the first paragraph.
quote: Miss Pinkerton, smiling, turned and entered the cinema. She was a sweet old woman, but a little lonely since Mr. Pinkerton passed. Galwin was glad she still came to the cinema.
Now, if I knew this sooner, this would perhaps color the dialogue above.
quote: She had the shutter pulled halfway down, ready to close the booth for the night, when old Bob Gantry sauntered into view. She pushed the shutter back up with a sigh.
And now I'm lost. What booth?
...I went back up and only now realized that the girl handing out money is Galwin. I assumed they are two different people, one an unimportant NPC, and one a person accompanying the old miss who might be the main character. Calling her 'the ticket girl' is strange if this is third limited, and it's confusing even if it's omniscient (I'm still not sure which one it is). Also starting with Pinkerton's suggests that she's the more important character of the two.
I hope I helped.
Posted by drew (Member # 11149) on :
I removed this reply. It was unnecessarily terse. I'm sorry. You don't deserve that. You're being helpful, and I'm being a jerk for no good reason. Not that it's any excuse, but I'm back to living on the streets and had about 3 hours of sleep. I will take a few days to review everything you've said and get back to you when I'm less... me. Sorry. Thank you for your input. I really do value your advice.
~D
[ April 23, 2019, 09:06 PM: Message edited by: drew ]
Posted by MerlionEmrys (Member # 11024) on :
Originally posted by Emma "Emma Sohan" Sohan
quote: Yes, that competition is nearly impossible at every step. But once they've read your first sentence, you have the advantage -- your book is in their hands. You second sentence is very convenient.
So your opening just has to be good enough to keep the reader reading. It shouldn't give them a reason to stop. I'm not saying that's easy to do. But it doesn't require histrionics.
And your book has to appeal to only some readers. Apparently most readers do not like Twilight, that's why it sold only 120 million copies [Edited: for the series], but that still worked out well for the author.
This, times infinity.
Originally posted by drew, AKA "drew"
quote: "They're made of meat."
Ha! I can't tell you how many times this story has come to mind in the course of my conversations here.
Originally posted by drew, AKA "the OP"
quote: It seems you're trying to convince yourselves, as much as me, that this should be the case, and yet many fine stories exist that seem to defy it, or even celebrate it. I may not know writing, but I do know people. Cognitive dissonance seems afoot.
Ha some more! If I had a goldpiece for every time I've had thoughts like this in the course of my time here, I'd be able to buy that Staff of the Magi I've wanted for the past 20 years.
Cognitive dissonance indeed.
Originally posted by A"Certain"Writer AKA "Writer-kun"
quote: I assumed they are two different people, one an unimportant NPC
You said NPC! I love it. Cross-media references for the win!
Posted by extrinsic (Member # 8019) on :
quote:Originally posted by drew: I removed this reply. ~D
The removed post contained a stronger and clearer start revision that is more potent and passionate than prior versions. I'd meant to post a link to a car crash short story for further rewrite considerations: Denis Johnson, "Car Crash While Hitchhiking," first part of the picaresque novel story collection Jesus' Son, print, 1992; motion picture, 2000, (Washington State University hosted PDF image, ten pages).
When I was your age . . . I loathed if anyone said when I was your age. Anyway, unstable daily life was my norm and all in the way of my fiction ambitions. Distant horizon rumbles of an unstable domicile arise again, as they always do.
[Edited: Six times I've moved for the eleven-year span of my Hatrack membership, thirty-nine lifetime total, and months or longer homeless interludes. Across town transfer more burden than across divides. All the baggage goes local, pared to nil long distance.]
[ April 25, 2019, 06:42 AM: Message edited by: extrinsic ]
Posted by Grumpy old guy (Member # 9922) on :
quote:Originally posted by drew:
And with this reply, I've likely ostracized myself.
No, you haven’t. If we are going to dish it out then we must accept the idea the recipient of our ‘sage advice’ is entitled to a courteous rebuttal . By posting in the feedback forums you invite criticism; you don’t have to like it or agree with it. In fact, a politely robust attempt at defense can sometimes elicit new insights for both parties.
Now, dialogue as an opening sentence. If I come across it when I open a book, I close it immediately. Why? Leaving aside the fact we don’t know who’s speaking, or where, or why, opening a story with dialogue is indicative of a number of writer shortcomings that are not just possible but probable. Starting with dialogue is easy, unimaginative and demonstrates laziness. How will that carry on forwards: shortcuts in plot, character development, tension and conflict development, and resolution, and, finally, plot? I don’t have the time or money to indulge time-wasters who look for the easy options. Writing is hard; it’s why good writers get paid heaps. Not to imply I’m a good writer getting paid heaps, but in ten minutes I came up with a dozen openings with Mrs Whoever or poor ol' Bob Gantry, none of which included dialogue, yet all began the character development process for both characters, major and throw-away.
I wish you all the good fortune you can muster.
Phil.
Posted by drew (Member # 11149) on :
quote:Originally posted by extrinsic: The removed post contained a stronger and clearer start revision that is more potent and passionate than prior versions. I'd meant to post a link to a car crash short story for further rewrite considerations: Denis Johnson, "Car Crash While Hitchhiking," first part of the picaresque novel story collection Jesus' Son, print, 1992; motion picture, 2000, (Washington State University hosted PDF image, ten pages).
When I was your age . . . I loathed if anyone said when I was your age. Anyway, unstable daily life was my norm and all in the way of my fiction ambitions. Distant horizon rumbles of an unstable domicile arise again, as they always do.
[Edited: Six times I've moved for the eleven-year span of my Hatrack membership, thirty-nine lifetime total, and months or longer homeless interludes. Across town transfer more burden than across divides. All the baggage goes local, pared to nil long distance.]
Thank you, eXtrinsic. Sometimes it's good to know you're not the first one to travel this dusty road. I appreciate that. Posted by drew (Member # 11149) on :
quote:Originally posted by Grumpy old guy: No, you haven’t. If we are going to dish it out then we must accept the idea the recipient of our ‘sage advice’ is entitled to a courteous rebuttal . By posting in the feedback forums you invite criticism; you don’t have to like it or agree with it. In fact, a politely robust attempt at defense can sometimes elicit new insights for both parties.
I have no problem with brutally critical inspections of my writing. I question criticism, however, when it appears to be based on conjecture, especially when it comes lacking in explanation.
quote:Originally posted by Grumpy old guy: Now, dialogue as an opening sentence. If I come across it when I open a book, I close it immediately. Why?
The invitation to presume your motivations is kindly refused.
quote:Originally posted by Grumpy old guy: Leaving aside the fact we don’t know who’s speaking, or where, or why...
This challenge, on the other hand, is gladly accepted:
quote:"It is the judgement of this court that you be remanded to the custody of the state for no less that 125 years, with no possibility of parole."
Any other objections?
When you tell someone to not do something without explanation, you come off as arrogant and prejudice. I feel I must rebel against your assumed authority, but you leave me with nothing to confront except your character. When you provide a reasonable explanation, you allow me to address it with creativity and skill, instead of a character analysis. I would much prefer to refute authority with my creativity and skill.
quote:Originally posted by Grumpy old guy: ... opening a story with dialogue is indicative of a number of writer shortcomings that are not just possible but probable.
Tolstoy would have words with you.
quote:Originally posted by Grumpy old guy: Starting with dialogue is easy, unimaginative and demonstrates laziness.
I would argue, and others have, that the opposite is true. Starting with effective dialogue is hard because of the points you made above. It not only requires creativity, but also a determination to defend it against critics who feel they must impose on new writers the old rules they themselves are unwilling to break.
Rules in writing, as in all arts, are never hard, and every device can be used to effect by the skilled artist. Opening with dialogue is just another tool in the belt. I would rather know how to use it than to be told it isn't useful at all. I hope you can appreciate this.
quote:Originally posted by Grumpy old guy: How will that carry on forwards: shortcuts in plot, character development, tension and conflict development, and resolution, and, finally, plot?
Assumptions you have admittedly never taken the time to consider, if you can never allow the author the time to convince you otherwise. A closed mind closes many books before reading them, and remains prideful of his ignorance. I find this point of view to be detestable, primarily because it leads to needless conflicts without any clear way to resolve them.
quote:Originally posted by Grumpy old guy: I don’t have the time or money to indulge time-wasters who look for the easy options. Writing is hard; it’s why good writers get paid heaps. Not to imply I’m a good writer getting paid heaps, but in ten minutes I came up with a dozen openings with Mrs Whoever or poor ol' Bob Gantry, none of which included dialogue, yet all began the character development process for both characters, major and throw-away.
I wish you all the good fortune you can muster.
Phil.
I don't know how to respond to this tactfully, so I'll just say this: My life is not up for critique. Please keep your not so subtle insinuations, that I am lazy, unskilled, a timer-waster or unable to muster good fortune, to yourself.
As to your twelve openings, braggadocio does not impress me. Besides, none of them are canon.
~Drew.
Posted by Grumpy old guy (Member # 9922) on :
Thankyou for your response.
Phil.
Posted by drew (Member # 11149) on :
Thank you for the civil reply. Best community.
Posted by MerlionEmrys (Member # 11024) on :
Oh my sweet, merciful Goddess, drew that was possibly the most impressive thing I've seen in all my years on Hatrack. You excellently summed up the majority of the issues with how people crit-and approach writing and critting-that I've been on about since what seems like the dawn of time and so far, without being blown to smithereens as I'd most likely have been had I said the same thing.
Heck, you got somebody to thank you for responding to their feedback, rather than attack you for it. That's pretty epic.
My hat is off to you. Leastways it would be, if I had a hat.
Posted by drew (Member # 11149) on :
Nah, we hashed a few things out in private. I probably overreacted, misunderstanding his intent. I can be a little sensitive about my current state. I'll check my emotions at the front desk. I can't speak for Grumpy, but I'm cool now.
Oh, I decided to make my email public, so if people want to contact me, even it's to critique my life, that's a good avenue. I have a lot of insights into characters who live on this side of the tracks.
Posted by Grumpy old guy (Member # 9922) on :
Yep, all is copacetic.
Phil.
Posted by drew (Member # 11149) on :
Well, I think I'm ready for a fuller critique of the first chapter, barring any horrible errors in the first 13 lines below. I went with the "Everything Changed" opening that begins right with the car accident, and then devote the rest of the first chapter to a flashback that brings us to that point. I didn't like the idea, but I think it's workable.
I revised the dialogue with Miss Pinkerton, as you all suggested. I added in some description to set the who, where and why. I also gave some hints that she was expecting someone. I made it clear that we're dealing with a ticket booth for a cinema right up front. I think that covers the major points you mentioned.
I've been reading our host's Characters and Viewpoints (I understand better, now, what you've all been trying to do), and while this could make a fine milieu piece, I honestly think it's a character story at heart, with a strong milieu. I think that's why I feel like I need to establish her in her own world before thrusting into the world of Lore.
I may skip the riverbank scene altogether. The second major character is very soon introduced, rescuing Galwin from jumping off a bridge (she thinks she can get home the same way she came). I may start there, and take Scylia's viewpoint of the rescue, and describe Galwin as being in a sort of daze until Scylia physically grabs her (the first "human" contact she would have had since her arrival on Lore). I believe the physical contact snaps her out of it, and she wakes up in that moment, yelling at her rescuer.
I may cover the riverbank another way, with just a brief campfire recounting of what she remembers. Not a full flashback, but a conversation.
It took me a bit of pondering to figure out why Scylia would save Galwin, but I worked out a compelling reason that fits her character and isn't just mere coincidence or fate. Now I just have to write it.
That rescue, and the following conflict, should lead organically into meeting the third and final character, Lyra. Still working out how to transition from there into the main plot without having it feel weird or forced or convenient.
Since this is YA, I put much thought into love interests. I have some ideas, but I need to explore the world a bit more before I find Mr. (or Ms.) Right. I'm actually leaning towards Ms.. Maybe a little cross-species action. Dunno yet.
I've grown fond of the name Galwin, but it's just a tad too weird for a 90's American teen girl, even if her parents were hippies, which they aren't. Uhg. I've renamed her in this revision to be Gwen, which is the closest feminine name that resembles hers, without bastardizing Gavin to be feminine.
Ok, so without further delaying and exposition, here are my (hopefully) final 13 lines. They are pretty much the same ones I had in the reply I removed, minus the snark. Stay brutal, my friends.
The car bounced, swerved into the wrong lane, and over-corrected back towards the railing where Gwen stood. It struck her dead-on and she was bent nearly in two across the grill, her legs shattering from the force. Her hands slid across the hot metal hood, and her face impacted the glass with a crunch. She was thrown airborne. Her body tossed aside, spun in midair and fell over the rail towards the icy water. The river water gave way to her with a bone shattering explosion, and she immediately began to sink. The surface swallowed and gulped her down, and the pain made itself present and prime. Gwen reached and grasped at the receding surface, painfully, desperately trying to kick the remains of her mangled legs.
Posted by EmmaSohan (Member # 10917) on :
Brutal. Nicely done for that.
Looks fine. Good action and description.
Some small things. Do you need "From the force?" If it helps, it helps, but I think the readers will already understand. You've already figured out to pare out unnecessary words, I can tell by how well the rest of the paragraph works.
I'm pretty sure you don't want "bone-shattering explosion". She has enough shattered bones already, and water doesn't explode. Everyone else gets metaphorical freedom on that, but you are so vividly precise I think you have to keep that up.
Posted by extrinsic (Member # 8019) on :
Powerful scene, the latest fragment version. Some thoughts for aesthetics considerations and a few minor grammar adjustments below.
Meantime, a thought about workshop conventions: a general and principle set is submissions offered for comment will garner what works and what doesn't work comments, for a given responder, considerations for facets to enhance a creator's extant creative vision, and an unspoken principle: submissions are always considered offered to prompt adjustment enhancements.
"railing" leaves many other possibilities open than might be the intent, weighted against the primitive thoughts that someway foreshadow and go along with a traumatic experience's impact. //guardrail//?
An aesthetic consideration there and, further, likewise, is the odd way time perception flows when such an event transpires, slows, stalls, or altogether suspends, and how to use diction and syntax, etc., to imply that distorted time sense.
The first sentence, for example, barrels full ahead speed, due to syntax and somewhat diction. For such as that and to slow Gwen's time sense of the car crash-pedestrian event, one method uses judicious polysydeton: multiple conjunction words. Ample intuitive polysyndeton for that distorted time sense function as is, though on the succinct end of the axis. Another method uses longer descriptive phrases.
Another uses off-kilter description details. Or all the former and above and similar others. Say, apt or non-succinct, off-kilter, judicious article adjective use, A instead of "The"? Or skip articles if the sense accepts. Otherwise, plural nouns avoid articles altogether, hence, stretches time sense duration.
Plus, ample regular and special punctuation marks imply a jumpy, excited, emotional, off-kilter time sense, especially apt, judicious dashes; nextmost, judicious ellipsis points. Wordiness for dramatic effect, rather than pretentious airs, is a sublime prose method. Not, though, that the fragment evinces pretensions.
Another method uses fragmentary syntax units that imply fragmented perceptions and thoughts. Sentence subjects might be omitted if a sentence fragment is proximal to a prior intended subject and implied governs a sentence fragment's predicate, as the illustration below demonstrates.
"The car bounced, swerved into the wrong lane, and over-corrected [overcorrected, (one word)] back towards the railing where Gwen stood."
For a crash scene, a few of those words, verbs especially, are on-the-nose succinct. Maybe too succinct for the scene situation? Also, a few judicious adjectives could lend an air of suspended time movement yet the read and comprehension ease and action situation plow forward anyway.
An advanced prose topic entails different time senses: narrative time and story time. Narrative time is how much time expended and sensed from actual read time, and may rush, dwell, stall, or match story time. Story time is elapsed time within a narrative's milieu; what, an instant, seconds, years, eons transpire?
Illustration:
//A putz BMW bobbled on a road lump. And fled over into the far off lane. Back again, and scared driver -- to the guardrail, at her.//
A person would think the self's name for such an occasion? Seamless methods for name introductions wait for another persona to address a viewpoint persona, or a viewpoint persona introduces the self to another persona, or a viewpoint persona addresses the self aloud or by thought, maybe self-castigates.
The above illustration is about the same word count and real estate consumed as the original, accessible, relatable, comprehensible, non-gimmicky, stronger and clearer personal to Gwen perspective and attitude and characterization from the get-go foremost (putz, one word or so could do much narrative distance closure and character and situation characterization mischief), and a slowed time sense from off-kilter perceptions.
Example exaggerated for effect and such -- so as not to usurp another's creative vision. And, of course, ample occasion for similar other of the creator's design there and throughout.
However, write on ahead. These above considerations ought could be left for rewrites and revisions. Re-visions re-seen and revised from later possibly more dramatic perspectives.
By the way, a slipstream timeline tames flashbacks and recollections' errant time transition senses. Slipstream timelines treat each and all scenes as present-now sense events, in simple past if the main tense, without regard to detailed scene-by-scene, segment-by-segment, and overall temporal organization of When emphasis.
Expanded white space, section, and chapter breaks mark slipstream jump transitions. A mere empty line break for a minor transition; type art nonce glyphs, page centered, for more substantial time and maybe place and viewpoint persona transitions.
***
~~~
Standard Publication Format examples above. Three hashmarks, page centered, is the Standard Manuscript Format convention.
###
I might could read further as a somewhat engaged reader anyway.
[ April 28, 2019, 07:26 AM: Message edited by: extrinsic ]
Posted by Princesisto (Member # 11113) on :
Wow!
Come a long way, haven't we, from the check-out girl spying on the teeners in the cinema hall?
I don't know how to do exponents in this format but this is exponentially better!
It has action, shock-value, it gets the readers' attention and makes them want to know "Why?"
Now it could develop in many different ways: horror, certainly. Mystery is open. Maybe a psychological analysis about how she got to this place and why. That I have no idea which way it will go after the first 13 lines is a very good thing.
So may I join the others in praising this metamorphosis.
P
Posted by extrinsic (Member # 8019) on :
How to do exponents for Hatrack within UBB Code formats? Several simple superscript numerals are accepted standard HTML character entities:
1A¹ + 2B² + 3C³ = x
Otherwise, the exponent caret ^ : f of x = |n^(n - 1)|
[ April 28, 2019, 08:15 PM: Message edited by: extrinsic ]
Posted by Princesisto (Member # 11113) on :
Thank you, e^10 times, extrinsic, for your mathematical intervention.
I wasn't able to find any superscript command.
And drew, I meant to say that your new version is e^1000 times better than your original. Well-done!
P
Posted by Grumpy old guy (Member # 9922) on :
At first blush I like it, but let me think on it. I'm not too certain, in my humble opinion , of the first sentence; does it have the greatest attention grabbing impact on readers? Can it be better? Not more graphic, violent or icky, just better.
Phil.
PS. I'll also think on your story structural conundrums.
Posted by drew (Member # 11149) on :
I think you're right, Phil. I pulled this out from the end of the chapter, and didn't pay too much mind to the opening sentence. eXtrinsic made some good points about slowing down time, and together with Emma's key insights, I've extended the crash to three paragraphs, adding in more details, a little more polysyndeton, and I reworked the beginning sentence a bit.
I'm not sure I can avoid some sort of flashback or reflection without tossing out the cinema scenes. Maybe I should, but it's the only major flashback I plan to have, and it does so much for her character that ... I don't know. I think I'd need someone with a better sense of this to take a fresh look at it. I've been trying to find local writing groups, but them pickin's be slim. I may have to organize one myself.
Thirteen lines follow:
The old car lept as it mounted the bridge, bounced, fled to the opposing lane, and overcorrected back towards the guardrail where she stood, illuminating her stunned and soaked body like stage lights in a dread and tragic play. She was helpless to act, horror overtaking her as a crack in the battered windshield appeared to catch the moon and rip it to shreds. The tires cried out as brakes locked, but the vehicle, undenied its fatal role, struck her dead-on.
She was bent nearly in two across the grill, her legs shattering across the chrome bumper. Burning engine oil and rubber assaulted her nose and her hands slid across the hot and rusted metal hood. Her face impacted the glass with a solid crunch. She was thrown, airborne and limp and keenly aware.
The opening now comprises three full paragraphs and a couple closing lines. I did remove her name from the opening line, but it is mentioned once when she is reaching for the surface. I think I need it to indicate who is getting struck for the flashback.
It's funny eXtrinsic, that you should mention transitions. I used ~-~ to indicate the end of this scene and the start of the flashback.
Ooo... I should make the transition look like a rose. 0_0
-,-'-@
I began the flashback with a modified version of the Miss Pinkerton opening from earlier:
quote:Two hours prior, Gwen accepted the money an elderly woman handed her through the hole in the ticket booth window of the little cinema where she worked.
I didn't like to use "Two hours prior..." (I may adjust that time, but it seems reasonable), but it seems to be the least intrusive way to indicate clearly where the story is now. Meh, I may just be fretting about this opening too much. I should get cracking on Scylia's chapter. I think I'm going to devote one to each of the major protagonists. I suppose this means the story will have three major openings. Still need to fill in about 10 chapters worth of plot, add in a romance, a b and c plot... uhg. I thought I had more of this worked out.
[edit] uhg. "seems" is one my squirrely words. I need to cut that out.
[ April 29, 2019, 08:52 AM: Message edited by: drew ]
Posted by extrinsic (Member # 8019) on :
quote:Originally posted by drew: I began the flashback with a modified version of the Miss Pinkerton opening from earlier:
quote:Two hours prior, Gwen accepted the money an elderly woman handed her through the hole in the ticket booth window of the little cinema where she worked.
I didn't like to use "Two hours prior..." (I may adjust that time, but it seems reasonable), but it seems to be the least intrusive way to indicate clearly where the story is now. Meh, I may just be fretting about this opening too much.
If -,-'-@ marks the scene jump transition, that signal type is often ample for readers to soon enough realize a transition is underway. By the way, a type art rose, stem, and thorns side-on emulates a rose laid on a coffin. Exquisite.
Peter Matthiessen, Far Tortuga, 1975, uses variant Sun or Moon phase and sky condition and weather state for chapter title art, that imply the chapters' setting situation and dramatic characteristics. The rose one might vary throughout for similar cues, and accords such type arts' classic "vignette" type: 1 : "a running ornament (as of vine leaves, tendrils, or grapes) put on or just before a title page or at the beginning or end of a chapter" (Webster's.) For later publication preparation considerations.
For to tame the clunky and awkward narrator tell "Two hours prior," consider past perfect tense auxiliary in the subsequent main idea clause instead? "Gwen [had] accepted the money" and maybe another short succession past-time cue or so as well.
Young adult readers accept some degree of hands-held guidance, more than I might -- blessed by a cursed danger-close, personal read aptitude. A writer intuition to leave no immediate detail equivocal distrusts readers, and wants adjustments that learn to trust target readers' cognitive aptitude. Actually, a slight lead ahead of readers' cognitive aptitude contrarily appeals, due to gives credit for readers' smarts. Smarter than readers think they are; that is, smarter than a writing: smart writing.
The past-time scene chapter can get around to unequivocal When relative to the present now at leisure; in fact, that's a subtle time management skill, to which tension appeal attends. The question, When is this? or similar who, where, what, why, how, wants answer delayed yet answered before readers think to ask.
When clearly answered enough within a paragraph or two would do the subtle tension mischief, and successive unequivocal confirmation soon thereafter. That suits the target audience's cognitive aptitude and story craft's appeal methods. Again, though, write ahead anyway. These above are apt for later revision considerations.
[ April 29, 2019, 01:50 PM: Message edited by: extrinsic ]
Posted by drew (Member # 11149) on :
quote:Originally posted by extrinsic: If -,-'-@ marks the scene jump transition, that signal type is often enough for readers to soon enough realize a transition is underway. By the way, a type art rose, stem, and thorns side-on emulates a rose laid on a coffin. Exquisite.
Ha! I never considered that. Neat observation.
I've always known the cover art for the book would feature three intertwined roses, even before I knew the whole plot. The Roses spoken of in the title refer to the flowers that grow in the field that are indicators of the presence of strong magic, but also they represent the three major characters, strong, independent women in their own right, unappreciated yet intrinsically valuable in the end.
Recently, I've been listening to Brandon Sanderson's lectures on YouTube, and in one he talks about the twining roses motif being a symbol of clashes in characters, the thorns pricking each other, that blossom into something beautiful in the end. A rocky start leading to internal conflict that the characters have to resolve in order to allow their differences to manifest the beauty they display when they work towards a singular goal, using their unique gifts to enhance each other, rather than conflict with one another.
When I heard that, I knew it was perfect for my story. I had some conflict between the characters, and much exists between the two alien species already, but now I'm going to play that up a bit more and really let it shine. It's likely been done to death, but I can't see not doing it at all. Meh, nothing new under the sun, so why worry. It's the execution that really matters. Besides, the more layers I can find for this story, the better I believe it will be.
quote:Originally posted by extrinsic: Peter Matthiessen, Far Tortuga, 1975, uses variant Sun or Moon phase and condition and weather state for chapter title art, that imply the chapter's setting situation and dramatic characteristics. The rose one might vary throughout for similar cues, and accords such type arts' classic "vignette" type: 1 : "a running ornament (as of vine leaves, tendrils, or grapes) put on or just before a title page or at the beginning or end of a chapter" (Webster's.) For later publication preparation considerations.
Hrmm... illustrations would be best, I think. I can do them myself. I was already planning on doing the cover art. The text can just be a placeholder. What if we start with one closed rose for Galwin's tale, add another twined with hers for Scylia's introduction, and a third bound to the first two when Lyra makes her entrance.
Then, as the story becomes tense and the three are at odds, I could have the illustrations bind them ever tighter, or twist into knots, or facing in different directions, maybe two grouped against one. Then, as they learn to work with each other, they loosen before finally blossoming to full display as the finale approaches.
0_0 That's good stuff. Yep, we're doing that for certain! Man, if I can pull this off, I think it could really be something. It even implies possibilities for a sequel, with withering and falling petals. But... I'm counting chickens and looking at eggs here. -_-'
quote:Originally posted by extrinsic: For to tame the clunky and awkward narrator tell "Two hours prior," consider past perfect tense auxiliary in the subsequent main idea clause instead? "Gwen [had] accepted the money" and maybe another short succession past-time cue or so as well.
Interesting, so just imply a time shift with tense.
quote:Originally posted by extrinsic: Young adult readers accept some degree of hands-held guidance, more than I might -- blessed by a cursed danger-close, personal read aptitude. A writer intuition to leave no immediate detail equivocal distrusts readers, and wants adjustments that learn to trust target readers' cognitive aptitude. Actually, a slight lead ahead of readers' cognitive aptitude contrarily appeals, due to gives credit for readers' smarts. Smarter than readers think they are; that is, smarter than a writing: smart writing.
Natch. I have to give them more credit. I forget, sometimes, that not everyone is as dense as my local peer group.
quote:Originally posted by extrinsic: The past-time scene chapter can get around to unequivocal when relative to the present now at leisure; in fact, that's a subtle time management skill, to which tension appeal attends. The question, When is this? or similar who, where, what, why, how, wants answer delayed yet answered before readers think to ask.
Clearly answered enough within a paragraph or two would do the subtle tension mischief, and successive unequivocal confirmation soon thereafter. That suits the target audience's cognitive aptitude and story craft's appeal methods.
Perhaps, just to not lose the less observant, but I think you were right before. The transition illustration coupled with the subtle tense change (and the obvious fact of Gwen being seemingly vital and not shunned as an undead monster), should be enough to convey the notion of a flashback. Meh, I guess another little nod to it couldn't hurt.
quote:Originally posted by extrinsic: Again, though, write ahead anyway. These above are for later revision considerations.
Okay okay. I get the hint. I'll start right away on the next chapter. I'm probably doing what I sometimes do with figure drawing, filling in features and details before I have the form roughed out. Posted by extrinsic (Member # 8019) on :
You'll probably want to jump on those title art roses straightaway. A few considerations:
Book block interior art is best black and white line illustrations, most visible for it once published. Matthiesen's are gray-scale and continuous tone. 1975 print technology managed those fine. 2019 print technology does, too, maybe simpler, especially for small scale print-on-demand book printers. Large scale book printers take an additional continuous-tone images halftone step for print plate pre-preparation.
Interior color print is a ten times resource expenditure over black and white or continuous gray-scale tone either way. Online book print services, CreateSpace, for one, loathe interior color, though will for $$$.
A client wanted title type art: thirteen black-and-white lunar phases. A few softwares managed that concision magic. A vector draw design software created the images, jpegs exported to a vector graphics app created the individual glyph objects, and imported the individual glyphs into a typeface design app as svg. file format, typeface file exported to a TrueType Font file: LunaSymbols.ttf.
The client composed the typescript art titles from those, exported the whole to PDF, and submitted the PDF. Embedded fonts maintained the lunar type art as intended across hardware, software, and wetware platforms and applications. Those, too, are no-loss detail scaleable per type point size, and transfer to a publisher readymade for book print publication.
I've prepared all kinds of graphics for submission and publication preparations: ancient, old, modern, and post-new schools. Long ago, was a job shop product setup; cold and hot lead, the metal, typesetter; printer, binder, bookmaker drudge. My editor forte, as it were, anymore, is developmental guidance and preparations. Though not a prospector for client work here at Hatrack. A regular client's copyedit workload recently added a third more pages. Yay!
[ April 30, 2019, 02:21 PM: Message edited by: extrinsic ]
Posted by drew (Member # 11149) on :
I was planning on just doing some simple black and white line art in vector format with my drawing tablet and a cheap art program I have (can't really justify the costs of Adobe products for non-professional use). I should be able to crank out the set in short order. The cover art, on the other hand, may take some time and a few revisions before I settle. I could be persuaded to go with a more professional artist for that, but I still think I can do it justice. The idea is fairly simple, and reference images abound. It helps that I can see the book cover in my head. That's usually a good sign.
Are double dedications uncommon? I feel like I should give proper credit to the people who helped bring this to bloom. I can't fathom usurping Lexi, though. She was my first critic long ago, and the person who inspired me to write. Perhaps a page mentioning all the people behind the scenes. Hrmm..
Anyway's I've started in on the next chapter. I had to stop and flesh out some minor characters to bring it fully into the light of day. The scene takes place in a ruined metropolis, modeled loosely after 1930's Chicago during prohibition, in so far as there is much depression, tons of street gangs and mobs, corruption is rampant and lots of people are living in poverty or outright squalor. The war hit this city really hard, and it has yet to fully recover.
I did decide to cut out the riverbank scene. We now pick up in Scylia's viewpoint as she's chasing Fawn(Gwen) through crowded streets. No cars or their equivalent, exist in this world, so streets are more European in design. The government provides mass transit, but hardly any common folk use it. Mainly suits and bosses and "G Men". Still working out proper nouns.
Prior to the chapter's opening, Fawn(Gwen) slipped out of Scylia's grasp and vanished into the crowd. Gwen is completely overwhelmed by, well, everything, and doesn't even think this is real yet. I was going to have an awakening during her fall, but I scrapped that for a more gradual realization, fear, anger, desperation drive her right now. Her motive is to leap from a bridge again, hoping to go home the way she came.
Yeah, probably too much expository setup. I just wanted to paint the picture in case things were... weird. I'm having a blast coming up with new slang and nouns for common things. I think I can only do so much of that, though. I may limit it just to Scylia's viewpoint.
OH! That leads me to language. Heh. Aliens, and all that.
How does Gwen speak, understand, communicate? This is one of the reasons I went with the possession of Fawn (not because the first idea was terrible, no sir!</sarcasm>). In Gwen's mind, she is speaking and hearing American English, or a close approximation, but through Fawn's brain it gets translated into Paltic. That's the crap name I have for the colonist species right now. It's... meh.
The Lorens are naturally without language, and never had names for things before the Palts arrived. So, everything is Paltic, including the name of the Lorens and Lore, the planet they inhabit. I thought this was a neat way to cop out of that little conundrum.
So... 13 lines. Onwards to Chapter Two: (Yes, I know hazardest is not a word)
Scylia almost caught up to the young girl dressed in rags she had known as Fawn for most of her life on the streets of Joxxton. She was the one who gave the quiet unassuming street kid her nickname.
“Damnit, Whispers!” She was never this hard to keep up with before. Something must have really spooked the meek little thing. Scylia was getting fed up with always having to get her out of some tough spot. This latest trouble, though, she knew Fawn couldn't handle. She wondered if even she could. Word was that Dreggur had a hand to play. That sounded like his style. The way he used the youngest to do the hazardest made her ache for an opening to take him down. But Dreggur was one of those cowardly sods, never without his crew of pipe biters and rock tossers.
Posted by extrinsic (Member # 8019) on :
An acknowledgments page may recognize substantial contributors. Traditionally, such pages were part of backmatter, before a colophon page, more often now are frontmatter, next after a personal dedication page. An acknowledgements page may also include attributions for external content use-license used or for public domain properties cited, referenced, alluded to, or inspired by, within a narrative.
Several standalone typeface design freewares are offered online. Medium to higher difficulty learning curve. Users beware: some offered are bait-and-switch scams, some are shareware freemiums term limited, some are free registerware phisches, some are outright malware, or are linked to malign page-switch phicheries.
My several vendorware publication software suites are the more economical Corel line. Still . . .
I used typeface freeware and my clumsy block-letter handwriting to design a complete typeface for caller cards (business cards-like: e-mail address only, which is my given name at surname dot yada), for printer printed resemblance of handwritten apostrophe and epistle and personal letters, etc. My handwriting grows evermore unreadable due to past vocational hand and wrist injuries worsen.
[ April 30, 2019, 04:10 PM: Message edited by: extrinsic ]
Posted by drew (Member # 11149) on :
I gotta just say, I'm glad I read our host's chapter on attitude before jumping in to chapter two. Scylia has it in spades.
Ah, typeface. I think I can find instructional materials with guide lines and just wing it. As long as I keep the style consistent, it should be acceptable. I have experience with pixel art, which can be tedious and precise, and while it doesn't translate directly, I have designed fonts in that way for games. We'll see how it goes. I tend to do things the hard way. Posted by extrinsic (Member # 8019) on :
Attitude, for social etiquette reasons, overall tone and attitudes are, together, one of a cornucopia of prose challenges writers resist. Don't make a public spectacle scene, we're ordered or told or exhorted or "suggested." Do make a scene on the performance page, interior discourse and exterior. Aptly strong and clear attitude appeals for the chapter two, first version fragment.
Some clunky diction and syntax for the fragment, a punctuation flaw or two. The drama movement and ACT setup are powerful: Antagonism (motivation, complication), Causation (stakes risked, conflict), and Tension (emotion, tone, attitude) movement. The clunk is more so organization impediments to read and comprehension ease than content and drama shortfalls.
The first sentence, for example, wordy though "correct" grammar, though clumsy wordiness is advised against: seven prepositions, several clauses and complement phrases, not clear which is the main idea, an "almost" mistake, and a possible emphasis inversion. The main idea is the now-moment Scylia can't keep up to Fawn, right? The rest of the sentence is past backstory and information writer wants reader to know, though somewhat disguised as personal attitudinal thought.
A grammar breakdown of the sentence, similar to a sentence diagram analysis:
"Scylia almost caught up to" Main idea, main clause? Noun subject, adverb, three-word verb, main verb and two particles, "up" prepositional adverb and "to" preposition.
"the young girl dressed in rags" Main clause's object verbal phrase, article adjective, adjective, object phrase's main noun, adjectival-verbal phrase verb (participial, adverbial), "in" particle prepositional adverb of the two-word verb participle "dressed in," noun object complement of the phrase.
"she had known as Fawn" Object complement verbal phrase, pronoun, an artful de re use, past perfect helper verb, verb, correlation conjunction (apt "as" use), noun.
"for most of her life" Second object complement phrase, preposition, superlative adjective "positive" case (means other than comparative or compared to a superlative degree against another term or terms [many (the standard positive adjective term of the sequence), more (comparative), most (superlative), or much, more, most ("much," positive, qualitative, an apter term)]), preposition, pronoun, noun.
"on the streets of Joxxton." Third object complement phrase, prepositional adverb, article adjective, noun object of the phrase, preposition, attributive adjectival proper noun, (Joxxton streets).
Overall, that's a loose sentence's main clause first, though subsequent complex sentence phrases abate amplitude and lower force movement, opposite of loose sentences' amplitude and force increase emphasis function. A periodic sentence's movement likewise increases amplitude and force from start to end, though a main clause is at a sentence end.
Figures include abating (anesis), lowers amplitude, which is the sentence's amplitude and force movement overall direction; and opposite epitasis (stretches), heightens amplitude; auxesis, force increases; and opposite, catacosmesis, force decreases, as is the sentence. Through those four figures, a complex or complex-compound sentence's movement, loose or periodic, may artfully flow two opposite or congruent amplitude and force directions.
From such a breakdown, writers, such as moi, later revise for enhanced read and comprehend ease, strength, clarity, emphasis, organization, appeal, and narrative distance facets, such as third-person, limited, close emphasis, albeit the subject fragment for a deuteragonist viewpoint: second contestant, second to enter, second in significance to a protagonist: Gwen-Fawn.
A next to enter and next significance contestant is a triagonist. Plus maybe an antagonist or two soon or late. Readers can cope with novels' ensemble casts of up to seven or so contestants -- agonists -- so long as each is distinct and of an emphasis proportion, and each is someway influential to a protagonist's motives (Antagonism, complication) and stakes risked (Causation, conflict).
The work queue exploded with pages, six hundred-plus on copyedit deadlines. Pages to go before I sleep, so I don't have time at the moment to demonstrate a recast of that first sentence or offer further comments about the fragment, at this time.
The latest fragments show storycraft skill movement from informational essay toward performance narrative methods, in rapid succession, too. Well done.
(The hardest way is often the easiest way -- long term. Fewest do-overs.)
I might could read further as a somewhat engaged reader. Though the fragment content appeals, the organization as is somewhat wants more interpretation effort than a read and comprehend ease expectation anticipates. Not more handholds, per se, a smoother and clearer and stronger flow organization.
[Edit: On a brief hooky from work break. An acknowledgement of Hatrack contributions might note -- an encomium's sole, indirect, sincere praise and genuine flattery purpose, that is -- generous and invaluable Hatrack River Writers Workshop insights.]
[ May 01, 2019, 04:04 AM: Message edited by: extrinsic ]
Posted by drew (Member # 11149) on :
Invaluable is indeed the proper adjective! This story would remain unpublished, and likely unfinished, if not for your extremely valuable advice and insight. The readers will know your efforts brought this work to them. I will make certain of that. Our host also needs a nod or two for his part, both in providing this forum and also for his instructional books, from which I am still learning.
I think this is a bit clearer than the first draft. I added a tad more description to set the scene, and tried to give a little more motive indication. That line "Stupid." may be too much, as it contradicts her actions and the rest of the text, but in a way, I think it's right. She knows she could do better on her own, and that getting into fights for others does her little good except to hone her skills and give her a reputation, but at the same time....
Scylia hustled along the narrow, packed street, trying to catch the young girl she had known as Fawn, but the little rat scampered and darted away before vanishing into the crowd. Those stupid rags she insisted on wearing were the perfect camouflage for Joxxton. Scylia peered up and down the tight rubbled alleys and ruined streets. Fawn wasn't her problem, and yet here she was. Stupid. She tried to imagine just turning around and walking away, letting Fawn fend for herself, but couldn't. After all, she was a scrapper, and enjoyed dishing it out, especially for the little ones. That's probably why Fawn shadowed her for most of their young street life. They were tight as twine, and she even nicknamed the girl when they first met.
Thank you for pointing out the progress being made. It's encouraging. I've let some people read the opening we worked out, and I have yet to hear a bad review. A girl who falls just outside the target audience claimed she doesn't like to read, but wanted to continue reading this. That's neat.
Full steam ahead!
[ May 01, 2019, 04:52 PM: Message edited by: drew ]
Posted by extrinsic (Member # 8019) on :
The workload expanded more, and more expected for several more days.
So a few comments about the latest version.
"Scylia hustled along the narrow, packed street, trying to catch the young girl she had known as Fawn, but the little rat scampered and darted away before vanishing into the crowd."
Long sentence, a train-wreck run-on ("fused sentence," anymore), again, a main idea(s) emphasis and narrative point of view, viewpoint, and narrative distance strength occluded and defused by connective tissue clutter.
Simpler, stronger, clearer recast demonstration:
//Along a cramped lane, Scylia hustled to catch the girl she knew as Fawn. The little brat scampered and darted away, vanished through a rabid street mob.//
Or similar other. Similar minor adjustments to the other sentences could likewise tighten and amplify the overall flow.
Craft skill movement as is, nonetheless.
[ May 02, 2019, 11:23 AM: Message edited by: extrinsic ]
Posted by drew (Member # 11149) on :
No worries. I have things I must also attend to. Thank you. Posted by extrinsic (Member # 8019) on :
A few more de-clutter demonstrations. Caught up for the moment from a fifteen-hundred page week-long deluge.
"Those stupid rags she insisted on wearing were the perfect camouflage for Joxxton."
"stupid" is an apt word, contrasted to the street smarts of urban camouflage -- irony's congruent opposites.
//Those stupid rags Fawn wore, she insisted were perfect Joxxton camouflage.//
"Scylia peered up and down the tight[,] rubbled alleys and ruined streets."
"Scylia peered . . ." narrator filtered perception and overwrought sentence. Otherwise, missed comma for the double adjective modifier of "alley." A compound adjective and verbal adjective participle phrase wants a hyphen, //tight-rubbled//, though that's more nonsensical yet.
//Fawn could hide anywhere among the town's rubble alleys and ruined streets.//
"Fawn wasn't her problem[;] and yet[,] here she was."
Fawn is Scylia's problem at the moment and for a past and future time span, right? Fawn is her problem to shepherd for a time, sublime irony, a litotes negation statement's positive opposite affirmation.
"yet" there equates to however, etc. //. . . problem; and, however, regardless, nevertheless, nonetheless, irrespective, anyway, though, although, etc., here she was//? Huh-uh for any one or more of those terms. The downstyle to "yet" intuition is valid, eliminates unnecessary comma and other punctuation separation, too; however, is clunky and confused either way. Wants a semicolon, though; otherwise, would be a comma splice no-no.
//Fawn was not hers to mind; yet here she was.//
"Stupid." Apt repetition and turns the word to a new use and meaning from the prior use. Apt sentence fragment emotional exclamation. No want for an exclamation mark, either; a woebegone, self-reflexive, emotional understatement as is.
"She tried to imagine just turning around and walking away, letting Fawn fend for herself, but couldn't."
Maybe wants some de-clutter and a single tense sequence direction?
//She imagined walking away, let Fawn fend for herself, and could not.//
"and" is always a more apt and less visible conjunction than "but," especially if "but" equates to though, although, or however, etc., contradiction conjunctions.
A thought about contractions: fantasy and science fiction readers are accustomed to contraction words spelled out whole for non-native English users' uses. Scylia, et al, could think and speak whole words, and Gwen-Fawn think and speak contractions, for subtle distinctions of each's natural idiolects.
Some wordiness for aesthetic purposes is worthwhile, though clumsy wordiness only fills word count clutter. Besides, page real estate and reader engagement and attention span saved for stronger and clearer content is wise expression.
[ May 03, 2019, 09:20 PM: Message edited by: extrinsic ]
Posted by drew (Member # 11149) on :
quote:Originally posted by extrinsic: A few more de-clutter demonstrations. Caught up for the moment from a fifteen-hundred page week-long deluge.
All work and no play? I hope you have time for yourself. Not that I'm not grateful to the extreme. Your critiques are like jewels.
quote:Originally posted by extrinsic: "Those stupid rags she insisted on wearing were the perfect camouflage for Joxxton."
"stupid" is an apt word, contrasted to the street smarts of urban camouflage -- irony's congruent opposites.
//Those stupid rags Fawn wore, she insisted were perfect Joxxton camouflage.//
A very accurate assessment. However, in this instance, I think the usage is appropriate. Scylia does think the rags are stupid, precisely because they hide Fawn so well. Scylia is very bold and fearless. The fact that someone would willingly wrap themselves in garbage, just to avoid conflict, seems cowardly to her. She would call a ghillie suit stupid for the same reason. She would not approve of gorilla tactics.
quote:Originally posted by extrinsic: "Scylia peered up and down the tight[,] rubbled alleys and ruined streets."
"Scylia peered . . ." narrator filtered perception and overwrought sentence. Otherwise, missed comma for the double adjective modifier of "alley." A compound adjective and verbal adjective participle phrase wants a hyphen, //tight-rubbled//, though that's more nonsensical yet.
//Fawn could hide anywhere among the town's rubble alleys and ruined streets.//
Crap. I thought I had that filtering problem licked. Thank you. I'm trying to cut back on my use of commas. My sentences tend to run on if I don't. In Lyra's chapter (the third, which I've just started on), I am giving her shorter sentences with few commas. Partly to reduce my run on sentences, and also partly to give her a different style. Words are not native to their species, so it doesn't make sense to me to have that species use wordy sentences. Plus, observant readers should be able to quickly tell who's viewpoint we're in, if I can make each one distinct enough. Well, that's the idea.
quote:Originally posted by extrinsic: "Fawn wasn't her problem[;] and yet[,] here she was."
Fawn is Scylia's problem at the moment and for a past and future time span, right? Fawn is her problem to shepherd for a time, sublime irony, a litotes negation statement's positive opposite affirmation.
Yes, Scylia chose to make Fawn her problem. Her internal conflict about it is interesting to me. On one hand, she despises people like Fawn for being weak and cowardly, incapable of helping themselves and always getting into trouble because of their incompetence.
On the other hand, Scylia loves having someone to protect, a reason to get into fights (she adores fighting), a person that depends on her skills and capability who will thank and praise her generous sacrifice. If she's honest with herself, she loves Fawn like a little sister, and would die to protect her. No other person like Fawn has that affect over her, so it's deeper than just an ego trip.
She literally chastises herself for doing the right thing, because it goes against the character she presents to the world, who isn't quite as likable. However, she does do the right thing in the end, even if it cracks that public mask she puts on, because she really is a good person.
quote:Originally posted by extrinsic: "yet" there equates to however, etc. //. . . problem; and, however, regardless, nevertheless, nonetheless, irrespective, anyway, though, although, etc., here she was//? Huh-uh for any one or more of those terms. The downstyle to "yet" intuition is valid, eliminates unnecessary comma and other punctuation separation, too; however, is clunky and confused either way. Wants a semicolon, though; otherwise, would be a comma splice no-no.
//Fawn was not hers to mind; yet here she was.//
I claim absolute naivety when it comes to the proper use of semicolons. That's probably one of my biggest grammatical failings. I'll attempt to remedy this.
quote:Originally posted by extrinsic: "Stupid." Apt repetition and turns the word to a new use and meaning from the prior use. Apt sentence fragment emotional exclamation. No want for an exclamation mark, either; a woebegone, self-reflexive, emotional understatement as is.
Cool. I wasn't sure about that. I wondered if it might be too much. That one word thing becomes part of her style in the rest of the chapter. I use similar single word sentences: Funny. Crap. Smart. They summarize what she's thinking or feeling in one word. Neither Lyra nor Gwen (heh, I'm still typing Galwin and having to edit it on the fly) do this. Gwen has a more-or-less normal way of speaking, and Lyra is simpler in some ways. It's subtle, I hope, unlike Scylia's style. She is much more outrageous, so I believe this sort of thing works well in her viewpoint.
I may let their styles bleed over a little as they learn to work together. Seems a little trite, but so does the twining roses motif. I'll have to be careful, or creative; with luck, both. I think just a little dab will do, really.
quote:Originally posted by extrinsic: "She tried to imagine just turning around and walking away, letting Fawn fend for herself, but couldn't."
Maybe wants some de-clutter and a single tense sequence direction?
//She imagined walking away, let Fawn fend for herself, and could not.//
"and" is always a more apt and less visible conjunction than "but," especially if "but" equates to though, although, or however, etc., contradiction conjunctions.
Using 'and' without 'tried' alters the sentence to be nonsensical, doesn't it?
//She imagined ... and could not.// Did she or didn't she?
If you keep the 'tried', then 'and' is a little more sensical, I believe.
// She tried ... and could not// She tried and failed.
quote:Originally posted by extrinsic: A thought about contractions: fantasy and science fiction readers are accustomed to contraction words spelled out whole for non-native English users' uses. Scylia, et al, could think and speak whole words, and Gwen-Fawn think and speak contractions, for subtle distinctions of each's natural idiolects.
Some wordiness for aesthetic purposes is worthwhile, though clumsy wordiness only fills word count clutter. Besides, page real estate and reader engagement and attention span saved for stronger and clearer content is wise expression.
Good point. I'll try to make their viewpoint prose more in line with their culture. I was sort of trying for something like that, but you illustrate other improvements. I was already reducing wordiness for the third major character. I think my subconscious is smarter than I am.
Thanks loads. I'll post what I have for Lyra's chapter, and then I think I'll just plow through the remainder of the novel on my own. I imagine you could find more fault in later chapters, but I am starting to feel like I should be cutting you a check.
I'd stop here, but I also sort of want to show off her introduction. Sometimes you just gotta toss the ol' ego a biscuit.
Rewrote a bunch of the second chapter, and tried to incorporate your current critique. I think it's fine if we just move on. You gotta leave some things for the in-house editor to pick at. ^_^
Scylia hurried and shoved her way through the bustle of the late afternoon. Her prey scampered, darted away, and vanished into the crowd. Those stupid rags Fawn insisted on wearing were the perfect camouflage. The streets were congested with old war vets, unemployed farm hands and a myriad of low lifes on the lookout for an easy gain. Fawn wasn't her problem. But, here she was, chasing that little whisp through Joxxton. Stupid. She tried to imagine walking away, to let Fawn go it alone, and could not. Someone had messed with her friend. Funny. Usually Fawn shadowed her. She found her one night, shivering under a bridge, knocked about by a couple of local boys. Scylia nicknamed the girl when they first met, then she beat the snot out of the bigger kid. The other one ran. Smart. The two girls had been tight as twine ever since.
[edit] oops, accidentally posted an unedited copy... which I can't leave alone... That whole "Fawn wasn't her problem" part still feels wonky no matter how I rewrite it. I may have to convey that in a completely different way, or cut it altogether.
[ May 04, 2019, 06:56 PM: Message edited by: drew ]
Posted by drew (Member # 11149) on :
And, as promised, Lyra's introduction. I rather like this one.
Lyra slipped off Lt. Lance like an old dress. His limp body collapsed to the cold ground with a satisfying thump. He would have a bruise later from where his head struck the hard stone floor. She didn't care. She had been wearing him for far too many hours. His muscles were starting to cramp from his unconscious struggle. His body needed sleep. Lyra needed to rest as well. Manipulating a body was always a struggle for Lorens. Contorting the flesh and bone of a man who hates you so deeply was exhausting. She needed to recharge and to get out of that head. So many horrors. Too many deaths.
The old cell was known only to Lance and her. It was the perfect place to keep him while she tended to herself. He would be up in a few moments. He would be vowing punishment and death.
[edit] And it's only now that I realize that Lorens don't wear clothes... or dresses. Crapbaskets. But I love the metaphor. Using snake's skin is out. No snakes on Lore. I could name a creature and say it slithers out of it's skin, but.... Gah. Fantasy world problems.
Posted by extrinsic (Member # 8019) on :
Fantasy and science fiction and metaphors enjoy an uneasy comprehension relationship. If Lyra and Lorens are parasites, or symbiotes, or a weighted-proportion mix, less comprehension strain if metaphors are less abstract to ride and similar verbs and companion nouns: hitchhikers and the like.
Lyra would not consider herself a parasite, though. A rider, pilot, drover, or driver, shepherd, forager, shopper, stalker, hunter, etc., yes, and a victim as livestock, chattel, property, goods, prey, a vehicle, vessel, platform, etc.
Whether urban, rural, rustic, civilized, feral, or wild, or industrial or pastoral, what are Lorens and Lyra in particular? Seems to me they are native pastoral rustics made into industrial urbans by lately come-heres.
For example:
"Lyra slipped off Lt. Lance like an old dress."
//Lyra [exited] Lt. Lance, like [escape] _from_ an old [nag].//
Or for defused name-first first word(s) open narrative distance, to closer distance:
//Like [escape] (or -ing, -ed) _from_ an old [bore], Lyra [loosed] Lt. Lance.//
Many practical metaphor substitutes suit those above bracketed words and whatever parasite-symbiote Lyra and Lorens situation and nature. Other prepositional adverbs, too, might suit substitution for the "off" or "from" directional situations: above, behind, below, etc.
[ May 04, 2019, 10:18 PM: Message edited by: extrinsic ]
Posted by extrinsic (Member # 8019) on :
//She imagined walking away, let Fawn fend for herself, and could not.//
Reflexive "and could not" governs "imagined walking away" and "let Fawn fend for herself". Though Scylia imagined walking away, she could not walk away nor let Fawn fend for herself.
A type of extended syllepsis: "When a single word [or phrase, as here] that governs or modifies two or more others [or phrases] must be understood differently with respect to each of those words [or phrases]." (Gideon Burton, Silva Rhetoricae, rhetoric.byu.edu) Perhaps a might too much of a cognitive inversion for the audience, though.
A thought for consideration: If some readers don't notice this or that and don't care, and some readers do, might as well accommodate both rather than alienate either.
"She tried to imagine walking away, to let Fawn go it alone, and could not."
Works that above accommodate both audiences mischief well enough.
"I may let their styles bleed over a little as they learn to work together. Seems a little trite,"
Far from trite, rather, Fawn, Scylia, and Lyra would naturally echo each other's idiolects, out of alignment persuasions, a subtle method to show, at first, their natural discord, then gradual rapport development.
"You gotta leave some things for the in-house editor to pick at."
A myth that leaves many more than a few writers foundered upon a gatekeeper's shoals. If only a few minor nondiscretionary adjustments are wanted, if any, then that is valid enough. If more than a few, more than enough to want extensive adjustments, an acquisition editor might balk at the resource expenditures, even if a typescript merits publication due to otherwise fresh and robust drama and social commentary.
Anymore, a submission is expected to be all but ready or all ready as is for prime-time debut. Writers engage independent editors to reach that end, either beforehand, or at the prompt of a tentative acceptance, at a publisher's discretion. The headquarters bean counters run the show anymore. Elimination of most in-house copyeditor staff was a no-brainer for many houses some decades ago.
Hence, why the prose editor profession transferred from publishers' staffs to independent operations of variant competent to incompetent levels or to literary agency staff and their prompts to preferred outside editors -- at a writer's expense regardless.
Posted by drew (Member # 11149) on :
quote:Originally posted by extrinsic: Fantasy and science fiction and metaphors enjoy an uneasy comprehension relationship. If Lyra and Lorens are parasites, or symbiotes, or a weighted-proportion mix, less comprehension strain if metaphors are less abstract to ride and similar verbs and companion nouns: hitchhikers and the like.
Lyra would not consider herself a parasite, though. A rider, pilot, drover, or driver, shepherd, forager, shopper, stalker, hunter, etc., yes, and a victim as livestock, chattel, property, goods, prey, a vehicle, vessel, platform, etc.
Whether urban, rural, rustic, civilized, feral, or wild, or industrial or pastoral, what are Lorens and Lyra in particular? Seems to me they are native pastoral rustics made into industrial urbans by lately come-heres.
For example:
"Lyra slipped off Lt. Lance like an old dress."
//Lyra [exited] Lt. Lance, like [escape] _from_ an old [nag].//
Or for defused name-first first word(s) open narrative distance, to closer distance:
//Like [escape] (or -ing, -ed) _from_ an old [bore], Lyra [loosed] Lt. Lance.//
Many practical metaphor substitutes suit those above bracketed words and whatever parasite-symbiote Lyra and Lorens situation and nature. Other prepositional adverbs, too, might suit substitution for the "off" or "from" directional situations: above, behind, below, etc.
The Lorens are native wild. The Palts are urban industrial. Lyra and the Lorens are magical energy beings, like ghosts or plasma beings in sci-fi. They can possess biological creatures, but it is not permanent nor perfect. It is a violation of the war treaty for a Loren to possess a Palt as Lyra is doing. They are not parasitic, in that they do not require biological beings to maintain their existence. It can be fun, though, to possess a biological being. Lyra possessing Lance, however, is not fun for either one of them.
When Lyra slips off (or more aptly, out of) Lance, visually, his body goes unconscious and falls straight down to the floor, revealing a roughly bipedal blue ghost-like form without clearly defined features "standing" in his place. They tend to float above the ground, and never really manifest full legs or feet. Sometimes they are just a pillar, without arm-like appendages. They can alter their shape, manifest limbs, resemble beasts or clouds or swirling mists. They are not fully tangible, but can manipulate solid matter, or pass through it, if it is not too dense.
Before the Palts landed on Lore to colonize the planet, they thought the weird energy anomalies were a natural phenomena, not intelligent sentient beings. They thought the planet was uninhabited. Prior to the arrival of the Palts, the Lorens were not bipedal, or even individual. They would mimic or possess animals, and existed much like mischievous, though not malicious, jinn.
They are more generally known as "whisps", with the proper named Lorens being the highest order, the most developed, or most complex and individualized among them. Others exist as tiny, unconscious wandering puffs of magic, or animal-level, slightly more developed conscious beings. That is their "growth" cycle, though it is governed by experience and realization, rather than just time.
As the two interacted, the Lorens became more like the Palts, taking on higher orders of thought, bipedal forms, and individual identities. The Palts introduced the concept of language and culture, civilization and cities. The Lorens emulated or adopted a lot of this, but they don't maintain it as a defined or necessary part of their lives. They made "cities", but don't really live there. Akin to how children play "House" or build forts or sandcastles.
I've never fully understood the Lorens, to be perfectly honest.
[ May 05, 2019, 10:30 AM: Message edited by: drew ]
Posted by extrinsic (Member # 8019) on :
Do Lorens seem similar to many mythologies from across the globe, where fumes, vapors, and flames manifest spiritual and natural forces? Close to, what, St. Elmo's fire, pythian Delphi fumes, desert mirages, biblical flames, and swamp gas Will-o'-the-wisps, each someway related to a mortal want that tempts and taunts satisfaction efforts yet is unobtainable and, therefore, baffles and is malign for all of it?
Palts seem more or less natural world bipedal, bi-dexterous, sentient beings, albeit transplants, maybe sapient, too -- which is a kernel subtext facet for prose. Sapience is to a species, not individuals, and is an aggregate of individuals' moral aptitude potentials. Scylia, for example, is a stock archetype -- a heart of gold and strong moral fiber villainess, though not the true villain antagonist of the piece.
Gwen, then, is an emergent moral conscious of the several? What's her fatal vice and folly nature weighted in contest against her beauty, truth, and goodness virtue and prudence? And maybe Lorens are incapable of moral aptitudes due to they rarely, if ever, suffer hurt or shame or guilt?
[ May 05, 2019, 12:50 PM: Message edited by: extrinsic ]
Posted by drew (Member # 11149) on :
quote:Originally posted by extrinsic: Do Lorens seem similar to many mythologies from across the globe, where fumes, vapors, and flames manifest spiritual and natural forces? Close to, what, St. Elmo's fire, pythian Delphi fumes, desert mirages, biblical flames, and swamp gas Will-o'-the-wisps, each someway related to a mortal want that tempts and taunts satisfaction efforts yet is unobtainable and, therefore, baffles and is malign for all of it?
Not exactly, but you touch on something there that I was toying with, possibly, for the major antagonist. The Lorens are born of a special mineral found only on this planet, called Lorenium. It is the source of all magic, and gives "birth" to whisps. Lorens "eat" the energy it contains, and rest inside the crystalline structure. It allows them to communicate with other Lorens across the globe who connect to a crystal.
The big bad is mischevious, malicious and likely very temptuous. I want to discover more before I settle him for good. It seems a little... campy to me right now.
quote:Originally posted by extrinsic: Palts seem more or less natural world bipedal, bi-dexterous, sentient beings, albeit transplants, maybe sapient, too -- which is a kernel subtext facet for prose. Sapience is to a species, not individuals, and is an aggregate of individuals' moral aptitude potentials. Scylia, for example, is a stock archetype -- a heart of gold and strong moral fiber villainess, though not the true villain antagonist of the piece.
Yep. Basically your run of the mill Star Trek style alien race. That "stock archetype" concerns me. She is protective of Fawn, but that doesn't apply to others like Fawn. I think she had a strong mother hen drive, and when Fawn filled that hole, she was satisfied. She kind of despises weakness, and weak wills.
quote:Originally posted by extrinsic: Gwen, then, is an emergent moral conscious of the several? What's her fatal vice and folly nature weighted in contest against her beauty, truth, and goodness virtue and prudence? And maybe Lorens are incapable of moral aptitudes due to they rarely, if ever, suffer hurt or shame or guilt?
Gwen is sort of a trinity. She has the soul-mind of Gwen the Earth girl, the body of Fawn the Palt, and those are bound together by a Loren, who has not been introduced yet. There was a sacrifice, and that Loren died to create Gwenfawn. The Fawn soul-mind is gone. Dead. She died like Gwen did, but hers was a suicide. I doubt that she will return. Scylia is going to be highly upset when she learns this.
I had to think about Gwen's faults, and I think I have it. She is a know-it-all in a world she knows nothing about, a realist who has to face the fact that magic is real, and a skeptic coming to terms with the existence of intelligent alien life. Conflict! Posted by extrinsic (Member # 8019) on :
The stock archetype there is a subset of an, anymore, outworn stereotype: the hooker with a heart of gold. A basis is a rogue female with a conscience, an opposite of a femme fatale. Near infinite possibles derive from that conscientious rogue female basis. The trite type is a rogue female sex object and is all but cliché convention. Any other subset of the archetype is fresh enough for most intents and purposes.
Archetypes may be "used furniture" though are close enough to real-world personas' personalities and such to have "new furniture" overhead appeal and are all the more fresh for vice and virtue and prudence and folly variables to be unique. And someway each hero, or heroine, covertly matures at a proportionate personal sacrifice cost. For Gwen-Fawn? Pride goeth before a fall? (Saying paraphrased from Proverbs 16:18)
[ May 06, 2019, 12:02 AM: Message edited by: extrinsic ]
Posted by drew (Member # 11149) on :
What if I tried a flat arc for Gwen?
K.M. Weiland's Creating Character Arcs is a fairly popular source for a number of video essays I've been watching lately, and they seem to say that flat arcs are good for exploration of a milieu. I have always felt like Gwen is the one to reveal things that affect the world of Lore. She's an outsider who has no real stakes in the world, and can bring fresh perspectives from her world, and her fascination with old books and movies and music.
She's a kid from a good home who had a decent handle on things, until that all changed. I almost feel like she wouldn't have much problem coming to terms with her new life, and would be outspoken about how things should be.
I swear I'm not trying to make Hermione. -_-'
The flat arc needs a great truth, and doubt, and a world of lies to affect. She ends the story just as she was in the start, but the world is changed as a result of her truth, once she overcomes her doubt. Seems fitting for the character and the story.
Scylia and Lyra can have the positive arc, maybe. I could try all three types, one for each of the major protagonists, but creating a positive-negative character arc seems... hard. The negative arc, leaving the character in a less developed place, but positive so the change is positive. Tricky, maybe impossible. I'd have to really ponder that one. It's probably too contrived.
So, Gwen can mature, but I don't know if she would change greatly by gaining a new understanding on magic, aliens and a fresh world. She can doubt, in the face of these, whether or not her book knowledge has any value in the new world, but once she sees that it does... well, I don't see a great deal of change for her after that.
That would also make it much easier to grow this into a running series, since flat arcs never really have an end, unlike positive and negative. Not that a sequel or running series is my aim.
Besides, teens never feel like they need to change. It's the world that's wrong. A flat arc feels very YA.
[ May 06, 2019, 02:09 PM: Message edited by: drew ]
Posted by extrinsic (Member # 8019) on :
Flat arcs invariably sag. Resistance to transformation arcs the upward tension direction; attendant antagonism widens and narrows along the z axis, while tension rises and falls along the y axis, and attendant causation pulses along the x axis. Impetus to change resisted altogether, more and more toward a climax apex. After which change forces decline due to an inevitable tragic crisis, that change forces are too strong to resist, yet an action fall act and final crisis turn show a way to win through, change refused.
However, at a proportionate personal cost, and maturation gain accomplished nonetheless. Maybe comparable to the age phase transition from young adult to early adult?
Posted by drew (Member # 11149) on :
Uhg... I may have to rethink how I write from Lyra's point of view. Even I am finding it a chore to slog through. I may not be skilled enough to pull off her voice in the way I had fist envisioned. Just look at this:
Lyra slipped off the body of Lt. Lance. She inhabited the monster for the better part of three moons now. His limp form collapsed to the cold ground with a satisfying thump. She occupied the space his body had vacated. Her ethereal azure body cast a glow on the damp prison cell. She didn't care that possession violated the treaty. This monster was not worth that consideration. He would have a bruise later from where his head struck the hard stone floor. She was glad of this. His pain was justice.
It feels like when I first started. An essay, I think you called it. That is just painful to read after a page or two. I think I need to find another voice for her, or learn some way of making simple short sentences not feel so tedious and boring. There's a ton of "She did this, She did that". Pooptastic prose. Fecal fiction. Posted by extrinsic (Member # 8019) on :
The point of view there is an outsider observer of Lyra. Plus, the fragment is a tension relief segment of, presumably, a prior action, an effect of a prior cause, a conclusion of a prior sequence. The fragment's function is for writer to tell reader information, no forward dramatic movement.
If Lyra has a want-goal, antagonal, causal, and tensional, she's in movement rather than only on a break from Lt. Lance. That would still develop who Lyra is yet incidental to her next want or problem. Maybe Lance rebels however little he can and Lyra needs to satisfy whatever he's done that she didn't notice?
Those sentences are on the fake forced side, too, and opposite of simple diction and syntax.
"inhabited" "the better part of" "His limp form collapsed to the cold ground with a satisfying thump."
And so on, each and all the sentences overwrought.
[ May 06, 2019, 03:55 PM: Message edited by: extrinsic ]
Posted by drew (Member # 11149) on :
I'm not completely convinced the flat arc is a bad choice for Gwen. Many great characters have a flat arc, and the stories are not without change and growth. That change just happens to take place around them, rather than within them. Their reluctance is not a folly, but an affirmation.
They know what the truth is, and face conflicts from the external in the form of falsehoods they encounter. They are a force for change, inverting the positive arc, where external forces change individuals.
Scylia and Lyra would have positive arcs. The trio can as well, but I think for Gwen, she can pull off a flat arc. The difficulty I foresee would be in making her imperfect enough not to be a Mary Sue, perfect protagonist.
Sherlock Holmes is a flat arc. Gandalf in the Hobbit (he does get a positive arc in the LotR). Forest Gump. Goku. These characters end their stories the as same character they began. They also change their world by remaining steadfast in their belief of a truth. I don't think you could claim that these stories sag. Goku may not be familiar enough to say ether way. I just happen to be a big fan of Akira Toriyama's work.
All of them are suited to exploring a world, and most of their stories are just that. Holmes explores mysteries, Gandalf explores Middle Earth. Gump explores history, Goku explores the world of Dragonball. Gwen would be exploring Lore.
Her truth would have to be powerful and compelling, and in direct conflict with the characters around her, especially the major antagonist. If I can't discover what that is, then I probably can't do a flat arc. Heck, I may be too unskilled to pull it off even if I do, but I think I still want to try it out.
I'll see if I can come up with a good outline before devoting too much effort to this. Your reluctance to endorse the idea is giving me pause. If it seems to sag or comes off as too convenient or contrived, I'll toss the idea. If she starts looking like a Mary Sue, that would kill the concept for me as well.
Posted by MerlionEmrys (Member # 11024) on :
I know Goku. In many forms.
Posted by drew (Member # 11149) on :
quote:Originally posted by extrinsic: The point of view there is an outsider observer of Lyra. Plus, the fragment is a tension relief segment of, presumably, a prior action, an effect of a prior cause, a conclusion of a prior sequence. The fragment's function is for writer to tell reader information, no forward dramatic movement.
If Lyra has a want-goal, antagonal, causal, and tensional, she's in movement rather than only on a break from Lt. Lance. That would still develop who Lyra is yet incidental to her next want or problem. Maybe Lance rebels however little he can and Lyra needs to satisfy whatever he's done that she didn't notice?
Those sentence are on the fake forced side, too, and opposite of simple diction and syntax.
"inhabited" "the better part of" "His limp form collapsed to the cold ground with a satisfying thump."
And so on, each and all the sentences overwrought.
Fake and forced. Total agreement. I was struggling to convey the scene. I'm not sure how to introduce the concept of Lyra possessing Lance without some exposition. I thought perhaps showing her depossessing him behind a locked cell door would help. They've been like this for quite a while.
The action starts when her intention to rest is interrupted by a call on Lance's radio. The reason for her covertness has presented itself, and she must act.
I could remove the depossesion, and just show her repossessing him to go complete that task. That might help? She's about to go interrogate Gwen and Scylia. She's been searching for the Earth girl.
If I jump right into the interrogation, it would be very hard to establish the Lyra/Lance relationship, I think. Maybe this calls for a different introduction. A prior scene, as you suggest. I'll have to think it over.
Thank you for the feedback. I hope I'm not keeping you from your lunch. Posted by drew (Member # 11149) on :
quote:Originally posted by MerlionEmrys: I know Goku. In many forms.
Hehe. Touché.
Posted by drew (Member # 11149) on :
Okay, trying for a more Lyra-centric viewpoint. It seems a little better. This viewpoint thing is a major stumbling block for me. I may have to work through some writing lessons or something. I'm almost through our host's Characters and Viewpoints. I really hoped it would be a revelation. I guess epiphany is wishful thinking.
The monster fell away, released from her possession. The past three moons were taxing. His collapse was satisfying. Let him wake. The relief was too blissful for even his vile screams to upset the mood. She stretched her ethereal azure form, savoring the freedom. Her light cast a glow on the damp prison cell, but it was not a problem. Down here, her light would not be noticed. So what if possession violated the treaty? This monster was not worth treating. She considered the lump forming where his head struck the floor. His pain was a small justice. Yes, let him wake to that.
I can probably go back a scene, or jump forward. Forward is clearer to me. I'm not sure what she was doing prior to coming down to this abandoned section of the prison to rest. My brain is feeling like mush right now. I start the new job in a couple weeks, and life is... interesting.
I will have to rewrite the other 1800+ words in this chapter that I've scratched together at some point. I also need to rewrite these chapters to introduce those character flaws and follies eXtrinsic mentioned. Maybe a rewrite of the opening to fall in line with a flat arc. Maybe. On the fence at this point. :|
[ May 06, 2019, 04:09 PM: Message edited by: drew ]
Posted by extrinsic (Member # 8019) on :
Truth realization is itself cause for a movement arc. For Gwen, at first, the truth could be taken for granted, understood without much thought or talk, yet truth wants her to self-realize so she can share the truth with Scylia and Lyra.
An adage from Wayne Booth, A Rhetoric of Irony: Deny one rhetoric, another takes its place -- consciously or otherwise. Though Gwen exeunts Lore more or less untransformed, several of several proactive processes may substitute for her dramatic movement instead.
Narrative point of view and viewpoint topics are numerous; few do more than show by example, if that. A further cognitive leap derives from, of all things, grammar study, especially diction and syntax, plus other language sciences and arts: linguistics, semiotics, and semantics. A third-person self located in sentence object position is one of the many strategies; works for first person, too. Some craft movement those directions for the latest fragment.
Posted by drew (Member # 11149) on :
I think my biggest issue with writing from Lyra's perspective is my general lack of information regarding Lorens in general. So, I just had a long hard discussion with myself about them. Yes, I talk to myself. Want to see?
quote:Ho boy. Lyra. Man. What a nut! How do you crack something that is intagible unless it wants to be? You convince it that it wants to be cracked. You get it to need it. You get it to do it to itself. Well, that's a lot of help. Thanks! No problem. This guy doesn't understand sarcasm! har har. Just write, dude. Fine.
It goes on like this for some time. Me asking the questions, and me giving the answers. It was actually SUPER EFFECTIVE. I know so much about them now, and Lyra. And Hooooo boy! Do I have a story for you!
I worked out just about all the issues i was having with her character, their society, and the plot. I won't spoil it. It's good stuff. Let's just say... Lyra's got quite the past.
Now I just gotta write it.
Posted by drew (Member # 11149) on :
Sorry I haven't posted anything to show Lyra's opening. I keep going back to the first chapter's opening. I think it's fairly well polished now. The accident is just about perfect, or, I don't see much that I could change to make it better. I'd need an outside opinion on that, but I'm fairly confident about it now. I even snuck in our host's argument on fear, having her experience first dread, then horror, and lastly, terror. hehe
The character's voice is there now. And it does some neat things with pacing. If it works as intended, the reader should feel just about as breathless when Gwen dies as she does. It's three paragraphs. The impending doom, the horrible impact, and the sinking end. The river and the car are almost characters, and I attempted to convey the rush and slowing and rush again, of time. I'm super proud of it.
But, that's not why I'm posting. I'm ditching the cinema scenes, the cinema characters, and the idea for a flat arc. I will likely be doing a monomyth. I'm also changing Scylia's character. I've been toying with other ways to introduce Gwen's life, and while listening to a lecture last night by Brandon Sanderson, it hit me. It was so obviously perfect, I don't know why I didn't do this from the start.
Gwen. I found her character. Up until now, I've been writing her like some generic teen girl. Hum drum. Boring. Gantry and Scylia were outshining her in every scene they shared. This always bothered me. She had vague characteristics and not so well-thought-out interests. The cinema was just a dead end, good for a backdrop, a stage, but little else. I tried to insert some conversation about magic not being real, and her disbelief in alien life, but it was so forced and clumsy.
I tried a library scene. Gantry was still there, but just like the cinema, it was boring and clunky and didn't really do anything for me. Then...
I decided to make her:
bored with her milieu - angry skeptical realist a loner character - bookish fumbling know it all
and the piece de resistance!
unjustly wronged - abused foster kid
Bingo. Write what you know, they say. They are wise. I made one more change, as well:
14 years old - frumpy - homely
I dropped her in age by 3 years. I don't think teens want to hear a story where a character reverts in age (Fawn was about 14, Gwen was about 17), but they would read about one who suddenly becomes older. Now Gwen gains 3 years, instead of losing them.
This character is perfect for this story. The only negative is that she completely stole Scylia's voice. I believe that's a very good thing. I have plenty of street voices to pull from, and the "hooker with a heart of gold" never sat well with me. And not just because my first idea for Scylia decades ago was exactly that.
I sketched out a simple scene, almost entirely dialogue, to see how she might work. It's magic.
"I know it's not an easy thing to talk about, but it really does help," he said. What's the point? I already know what happened. I shouldn't have to repeat myself.
"Just, give it a try." Why? She shouldn't have to embarress herself again.
"Fine." She kicked the floor with her cheap sneaker. They buy us the worst stuff. "I was abused. A lot."
"And, how do you feel about that?" His fake soft concerned voice was annoying.
"Guess." Make him answer. He's the one who wants to hear it.
"I would imagine you're not very happy about it." No ****.
I've had conversations like that in real life. I also hated counseling. I used to fidget and evade questions. It was a game of keep away. I could write this from rote. I practically did.
Oh, I guess I can share a bit of the new car crash opening. I did talk it up. I hope this isn't violating the rules by posting two 13 lines. In my defense, the above is just testing the character's voice. It may or may not develop into an actual scene.
The patchworked speeding Impala, battered and obviously abused, with its weirdly twisted, adapted chrome bumper, cracked windshield, and delinquent driver, surged and leapt up the wet rise of the old county bridge. Surprisingly, twin headlights were still able to cast beams into the night sky as the old junker bounded, came down out of control and fled, suddenly, into the opposing lane. It just barely missed a concrete support on the other side, and was swung back at the last second, much too hard. It barreled towards the guardrail where she stood, trembling and sodden from that long dark walk in the autumn rain. Was this how the night was meant to end? No. Headlights and dread washed over her as the engine roared with vicious intent. Stop.
I really think this needs to be read in its fullness to see how well it's working. I wish we could post more than 13 lines. I'd like to share it. I think you'd like how far it's come. :/
Posted by extrinsic (Member # 8019) on :
Thirteen lines serves more matters than the obvious limitations. One, protects content from publication rights exhaustion. Plus, keeps content safe from idea piracy. The several other principles relate to reader engagement: Would a given reader read further.
The two excerpts above, though more in-scene, closer to insider looks outward third-person, close, limited narrative point of view skills, overworks the modifier words, which create the opposite effect of modifiers' prose function, adjective and adverb: emotional expression.
"fake[,] soft[,] concerned voice" three adjectives? Each also indeterminate as to which modifies which or all modify "voice." Comma separation shows each modifies "voice." A best practice is none, no adjectives, or, if no alternative, limited to one adjective. A modifier phrase is next most practical. A best-most practice is a sequenced repetition, substitution, amplification scheme that spans several sentences and develops the counselor's voice characterization through a span.
Consider a triplet, an earlier placement, and a later one. Or, or also, a more apt verbal metaphor than "concerned." J.D. Salinger's The Catcher in the Rye, develops the one word "phony" for a gamut of similar situations throughout the novel. Everyone and everything is phony, as far as Caulfield is concerned.
Few readers realize the cause of Caulfield's morose attitude and his existential crisis trigger, and not much given, either, under-realized by the writer, even. The untimely death of his older and closer in age brother Allie. Caulfield, more or less, gives the death some emotional emphasis, though indifferently dismisses any personal significance. The garage scene in which Allie comes up is either a throwaway or of unrealized substance.
This is even more modifier overwrought:
"The patchworked speeding Impala, battered and obviously abused, with its weirdly twisted, adapted chrome bumper, cracked windshield, and delinquent driver"
Would Gwen notice all of that in the eyeblink of time at first sight?
"Headlights and dread washed over her _as_ the engine roared with vicious intent."
"as" to mean while or when invariably causes a causation error and run-on sentence, two independent clauses forced into one sentence and chronology jumbled. Substitute simplest conjunction and and see if the diction and syntax are apropos. Takes comma separation, too.
//Headlights and dread washed over her, and the engine roared with vicious intent.//
//The engine roared with vicious intent, and headlights and dread washed over her//
Or, and etc.:
//The engine roared vicious intent. Headlights and dread _pierced_ her.//
"washed over" is a trite idiom. She's transfixed, right? Synonyms, more than a few are trite, too, or inapt for the situation: "stun · stupefy · astound · grip · root someone to the spot · stop someone dead · stop someone in their tracks · paralyze · petrify · immobilize · freeze · rivet · gorgonize · impale · stab · spear · pierce · spike · skewer · stick · gore · pin · bayonet · harpoon · lance · run through · puncture · perforate · transpierce"
What would Gwen think "in the heat of the moment"?
Aside from excess and trivial modifiers, also omit as many trivial conjunctions and prepositions as possible, in order to tame trivial wordiness overall. Save the word count real estate for substantive expression, and readers' engagement, patience, attention spans, etc.
An aside, foul language words, as noted, are prohibited at Hatrack, and more than a few science fiction and fantasy markets. An automated Bulletin Board process replaces foul word letters with asterisks. The publication format for such censorship is first letter as spelled, followed by three hyphens, regardless of the letter count. Single word sentence fragment exclamations or brief negation thoughts also take italics and an exclamation mark, also italics: No s---! Quote marks only, no italics, if spoken. Plus, brief exclamation thoughts that invoke a deity or world force take italics, deesis figure, Conan the Barbarian thinks: By Crom! Or similar spoken: "What the flubber!?"
The only irony mark common use is the exclamation mark-question mark interobang, as above, though uncommon for prose, common for scripts.
I would not read further as an engaged reader, due, in the main, to an excess of trivial wordiness. That, and overly erudite expression are facets I must work especial focus to avoid for my prose, albeit, for some reason, appreciated for information and formal essays, except adjective and adverbs are widely deprecated, irrespective of composition type.
[ May 10, 2019, 12:24 PM: Message edited by: extrinsic ]
Posted by Grumpy old guy (Member # 9922) on :
If you're interested in researching in-depth character creation I would suggest you find a copy of Lajos Egri's The Art of Dramatic Writing.
Phil.
Posted by drew (Member # 11149) on :
I now understand what they mean when they say, "agonizing over your words". Editing this down was painful. There were things I just really wanted to keep, and couldn't find another way to say. I seem to have a habit of overworking those modifiers.
I'm stealing a little Mickey D's wifi, so no time for a fuller reply. Here's that car crash opening, tamed.
The junked out sedan flew up the wet rise of the old county bridge, and came down in the opposite lane. It was about to collide with a concrete support, but was swung back at the last second, so tight that she thought it might roll right there in front of her. It rocked hard and barreled towards the guardrail where she stood, drenched and shivering from that long cold walk in the autumn rain. The headlights locked onto her, the engine roared with vicious intent, and she trembled with dread. No. She was the star in some mad play, helpless to act. Turn. A crack in the windshield appeared to tear the slivered moon in two. Stop! Tires squeeled and brakes locked. Wait! The car smashed her dead-on.
Here's the therapy opening, which I tried to fill out a bit more.
Gwen hated therapy. It was pointless, and she always felt like a weirdo afterwards, never better. Therapy was supposed to make you feel better, right? The tiny office wasn't much for distraction. Sean's desk occupied the majority of it, clutttered with paperwork and and those cheesy gadgets people buy to make others think they're sophisticated or smart. You know, the silver balls that swing and slam into each other, kicking the end ones out, clacking and demonstrating the law of conservation of momentum. Or the pin box that would make impressions of things, usually faces. She liked to leave her middle finger impresed in the pins whenever she got the chance or inclination to toy with it.
[ May 10, 2019, 10:51 PM: Message edited by: drew ]
Posted by drew (Member # 11149) on :
I'll check out that one, Phil. Looks like he also has a Master Class. Nice. Thanks.
[edit] Wait, that's a different author with the Master Class.
[ May 11, 2019, 05:54 PM: Message edited by: drew ]
Posted by Grumpy old guy (Member # 9922) on :
There is another writer's saying: learn to kill your darlings. This means when editing something which isn't working, the first things to look at cutting are your favourite scenes.
As to your re-worked car crash scene, I find it overwrought and overplayed. Consider this, a car traveling at 60mph will travel 200 feet in 2.26 seconds. How much observation or thinking will your character do in that amount of time?
Phil.
[ May 11, 2019, 09:44 AM: Message edited by: Grumpy old guy ]
Posted by drew (Member # 11149) on :
I've killed, what?, six scenes already (four you've seen, and two I never posted), and the recent change in the main protagonist will require me to nix pretty much everything I've written so far. I think filicide isn't a problem. The only thing that has never changed is this accident. Even a decade ago, when I began the story, it was there. I need some portal event. Gwen's tornado to Oz.
The opening I have right now eliminates the whining therapy session. It wasn't moving the story, and even I had a hard time telling if the narrator had the attitude problem or the protagonist. Now I'm starting with Gwen running away from a group home. I think the book could open there. I'd rather have the crash end the chapter, to be honest. I only put it front and center because it was the most powerful starting point I had.
I can't feel for someone's gruesome death if I don't know them first. I can be grossed out or horrified by it, but beyond morbidity, there's no real emotional stakes. No matter what I change, it feels melodramatic to me. It was not that way when it ended the chapter.
I will likely place it at the end again. Her runaway is a good "everything changed" starting point, and it's focused on her escaping the home, setting goals and moving forward. Not just some piece of scenery to smash and destroy.
As to how much she could observe? I'd assume about a handful of details. Auditory and aromatics would couple a few visual details. As the crash progresses, and she is injured, she would be more aware, perhaps slightly delusional. She snaps back to a speedier time frame with almost no details when she hits the water. It works well in my head. My mistake is is knowing that the car is familiar to her long before the accident, and assuming I could use that without informing the reader. He was eventually informed, but not until the near end of the cinema opening. The car belonged to the teen Romeo from that scene.
I think the runaway draft I'm working on might well be strong enough to stand on its own without a fishhook opening like the crash superimposed to snag reader attention.
Gwen had waited until the graveyard shift workers checked the dorm before she slipped out the window of the group home, and into the night. Her heart had been racing like crazy when the large screen didn't want to fit back in the metal window frame. After some fumbling and cursing, she was able to pop it in. She had been placed in the home two years ago by her social worker, for a couple of weeks respite. Her worker didn't mention that group home had a mandatory six-month 'Psychological Evaluation Period'. She found that out in her third week. Her counselor there claimed that she had anger problems. She had felt betrayed, like it was a dirty trick. This wasn't her first time running away, but her belly had still fluttered that entire day in anticipation of her escape. The window situation now settled, she turned and faced the dark.
This one could be reworked to show more of the action of her escaping. I can save the infodump for a later paragraph, I just wanted to get something on paper to test the scene. Seems like a fairly decent approach.
This, of course, requires everything following it to be rewritten. She now doesn't want to go home. No home to go to. She's a runaway. So this Gwen would never leap off a bridge in the new magical world to try and escape. She would probably be happy as a clam exploring everything there. So, Scylia's rescue is out. That tosses pretty much a third of the plot right out the window too. Lyra and Lance's relationship may need to be reworked. I basically need to re-evaluate the entire story in light of Gwen being a runaway foster kid, but I think she would be best that way. If I have to be honest, it's the foster kids I'm really writing this for. Or, for the foster kid I was when I was still in Gwen's shoes.
[ May 11, 2019, 05:12 PM: Message edited by: drew ]
Posted by drew (Member # 11149) on :
That is to say, I'm open to suggestions as to how to get Gwen down that rabbit hole. I think it should still end in her death. Maybe she's assaulted by someone and left for dead, or something? Runaways can be tempting targets for predators. But, on the other hand, I still think it should somehow be a choice she makes. To stem from her virtue so it's not so much of a fated event, or happenstance. I also don't want to give the reader the impression that running away solves your problems. Gah. Indecision.
Posted by extrinsic (Member # 8019) on :
Portal mechanisms for Gwen's transference matter only in so far as those compel her journey to Lore as Fawn and -- and -- express an overall theme, of what? Maturation tableau? And allow for Gwen's return home or new sanctuary?
Consider from our host Orson Scott Card's Characters and Viewpoint that an ideal situation is one where circumstances propel a persona into action both by self-want somewhat and more so by others' problematic wishes and wills, perhaps both are imprudent follies, too.
Review Edgar Rice Burrough's A Princess of Mars, 1917, for a model of transference transition step excellence, not so much preferred third-person, close, limited narrative point of view. Or Lewis Carroll's Alice's Adventures in Wonderland, 1865. Or the L. Frank Baum novel, 1908, Dorothy and the Wizard in Oz. (All the above novels Project Gutenberg hosted). Carroll's novel is somewhat the closer of the above to third-person, close, limited methods.
Prepare for a life-quake shock. The novels above bear few resemblances to their respective flicks, or around the other way, actually. And all the above novels are public domain. Project Gutenberg hosts all of Baum's novels, the complete set of Oz narratives, and Carroll's and Burroughs'. Gutenberg can generally be relied upon for any worthwhile works published prior to 1925 and later works if copyright lapsed afterward.
Unfortunately, contemporary novels that demonstrate third-person, close, limited arts and skills, much preferred of late, and the metaphoric substitution of it for first person, are under stringent copyright protection. Science fiction and fantasy as much as other genres.
[ May 11, 2019, 08:25 PM: Message edited by: extrinsic ]
Posted by Grumpy old guy (Member # 9922) on :
Try switching POV character to Romeo on the way back home. Loses control, Bambi in the headlights,Gwen hit. Switch to Gwen's POV
Phil.
Posted by drew (Member # 11149) on :
Not abandoned. I started my old job again, about 60 hours a week. It's taxing. This weekend is slamming busy, and in the four months I was absent, the kitchen went right down the drain. I've scoured so many surfaces. Uhg.
I'm reworking the... everything. The story needs major world building, as well. I realize I need to outline or, get lost down dead ends. Changing Gwen's character alters too much for me to just pants my way through, and I have yet to settle on her voice. Angry angsty teen is too much, or the wrong voice, or something. My brain is mush. Sorry. Not a lot of executive function to spare.
I've considered opening with Scylia or Lyra, to put the reader right into the world, but not sure. Right now, I have a Gwen that's more eccentric than angsty, and she starts off running away from the home to attend a birthday party under that fated bridge... with Gantry, who lives there. Might have both on the bridge when that car comes, and make Gwen push him out of the way, only to get hit herself. Unsure.
I'll probably keep Scylia's original voice. I really liked that. Lyra and Lance are in flux. I'd like to keep their dynamic, but Lyra's voice is elusive. Plus, the Lorens may or may not be vampiric. They consume life, but not sure if they consume Palts. Their species has developed into a myriad of types, like races, and the mineral Lorenium is going through similar development.
Thanks for the help. I'll get back to this when I've got something concrete to critique. Posted by extrinsic (Member # 8019) on :
Everyday life gets in creativity's way. Expression marches must be stolen against work and all or, decades later, still on the publication prospect.
I worked hospitality and restaurant trades for a long time -- while I prospected creatively. Sixty-hour-plus workweeks and after-work decompression rites got in the way. Not much of the present-day social support back when, that online workshops occasion. If it were given to me to advise the young artist self, I'd point to texts that deconstruct and describe method, and advise skip the blase and repetitive general outline, prescriptive how-tos.
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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I think this is going to take some major head wrapping. I'll pour over the text and links you provided. Maybe having a few more ways of explaining it will help me see what you're telling me.![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Natch.![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
I can go with the flow, though. I'll check out that film. If nothing else, another film for the fodder pile. Thank you. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
Good worms, though.