I need people to look at my outline and tell me if the events are believable. There are some parts I still can't decide on, so I would appreciate any advice. The outline's really long, so I'm posting it in three parts:
Act 1: Dreda is the daughter of a nobleman, living with her older sister and father in an estate outside a town in medieval England. Dreda and her sister, Meggy, spend their days trying to keep out of their father’s way. Meggy takes Dreda to the fair. On the way back home, Meggy is kidnapped. The sheriff reports that there is no evidence and Meggy is most likely dead. Dreda’s father sends her to a convent for her safety – and so he won’t have to be bothered with her care anymore. Dreda 1) receives a note from Meggy begging for her help, 2) has a dream that makes her think Meggy is still alive or 3) hears that the sheriff who investigated her sister’s disappearance may not have done his job thoroughly. She decides to find Meggy.
Posted by mayflower988 (Member # 9858) on :
Act 2: Dreda meets a drifter on the road named Angus who teaches her how to use a sword. Once she gets back home, she meets her childhood friend, William, whose family lives on the estate as freemen and lease farmland from Dreda’s father. William agrees to help Dreda find Meggy. They ask the sheriff for help, but he doesn’t tell them anything helpful. Someone tries to keep them from finding the truth. William falls in love with Dreda, and vice versa, but Dreda is afraid of her feelings and refuses to acknowledge them. She has trouble trusting men. The other servants are resentful of William, whom they see as trying to earn a better place by gaining Dreda’s favor. William does some snooping around the sheriff’s home and finds out that he’s hiding something.
William comes to Dreda with the news that someone has seen the sheriff sneaking up to the mountains. He asks Dreda to come with him to check. Dreda isn’t sure that she can believe William’s report about the sheriff. She struggles to decide if William is telling the truth or if he has dishonorable intentions. Dreda decides to trust William and goes with him up to the mountains.
Posted by mayflower988 (Member # 9858) on :
Act 3 Dreda and William find Meggy in the mountains. She tells them that her kidnapper is actually Sheriff Edward’s brother, John, who is prone to delusions and fits of rage. (In modern day terms, he has a mental disorder.)The sheriff comes back and tells them he can’t afford anyone finding out about John, so he says he has to kill them. John kills Edward before he can kill Dreda and William. Dreda tries to get Meggy to come back with them, but she insists on staying with John to care for him. After some time, Meggy gets word to Dreda that she’s had John’s baby, and she wants Dreda and William (who have married) to take the baby and keep her safe from John. Dreda and William raise the baby as their own. Meggy lives with John in the mountains until his death. Then she goes and lives in the convent.
Posted by mayflower988 (Member # 9858) on :
Constructive criticism is welcome. If there are any holes, loose ends, etc. point them out. Thanks.
Posted by JoBird (Member # 9883) on :
This is really hard to comment on. I worry that anything I say will be more reflective of the type of story I'd want to tell about Dreda, as opposed to the one you are telling. So, that makes me hesitant. I don't know the boundaries of etiquette in regards to my commentary is what I mean.
Also, most of what is written is going to have a lot to do with how well you sell to the reader what is happening.
Still, I'm going to try to put together some thoughts on this. I would ask that you take anything I suggest or comment on lightly though -- there's only so much input I can reasonably have on an outline.
A few questions first though:
1. Who is the audience? (Young adult, middle grade, general fantasy audience, etc...)
2. What is the most important part of the story to you? -the overall setting? -the mystery of who kidnapped Meggy? -the character of Dreda, and her changing role in the world? -that something is out of sync in the world, and needs to be put right? (All of these things can be in your novel; my question is: which is most important to you, which do you want to concentrate on the most.)
3. What genre do you consider this story, and why?
Posted by TempestDash (Member # 9026) on :
I have much of the same concerns as JoBird.
What is the story you're trying to tell? What is the true objective of the tale? It can't just be Dreda rescuing Meggy because that isn't enough to make me read 300 pages on its own. Is Dreda's romance with William the most important? Is her independence from her Father most important? Is the feeling of a cohesive family unit most important?
Why does William choose NOW to fall for Dreda? They were childhood friends, so what is different that his feelings would change?
Why is Dreda's father so easily convinced her daughter is dead? What "Evidence" in medieval Europe does the Sheriff not present? Depending on when what time period this is set in, it's almost inconceivable that a Sheriff would be able to STOP looking for a nobleman's daughter.
Why on earth would Meggy stay with her kidnapper? Why would Dreda accept that? Is the implication at the end that Meggy was raped? Is Dreda supposed to feel satisfied with what happened to her sister in the end? Is the READER supposed to feel satisfied?
You didn't mention it in your outline, but John needs to be introduced in the first act somehow. If he just appears in the 3rd act, it will be fairly unsatisfying.
Finally, what's the deal with Angus? Are there lots of wandering swordsmen in this age? He seems to exist only to teach Dreda swordsmanship (which it's not clear she ends up needing) and then vanishes without a trace.
Posted by Meredith (Member # 8368) on :
Is there any point at all in the drifter who teaches Dreda to use a sword? That doesn't seem to be going anywhere in the rest of the plot.
Posted by mayflower988 (Member # 9858) on :
Wow, thanks! It's funny how you don't notice the holes in your plot until someone else shows them to you. I'm almost embarrassed of my outline now. These are things I definitely need to consider. I'll take them into consideration and make a new outline that I hope will explain the story better.
JoBird, here are my answers to your questions: 1. Who is the audience? (Young adult, middle grade, general fantasy audience, etc...) Young adult
2. What is the most important part of the story to you? I think the main emphasis is on Dreda: she was traumatized by witnessing the kidnapping experience. This has made her fearful to the point where she is hesitant to leave the convent. (Thus the yet-to-be-determined kick in the pants at the end of the first act.) The process she goes through, the journey to find Meggy, coincides with the process she goes through to get over her fears.
3. What genre do you consider this story, and why? That's really hard to answer, because there are several popular genres that are nebulous to me. I guess it's a fantasy or historical fiction...I don't really know what all my options are as far as genres.
TempestDash, I'll answer some of your questions in my next outline, but for now, John was introduced in the first act. I just didn't put his name in that part because the reader will not know it until the third act. Now that I'm re-reading my outline, I realize Angus may be a residual character from an earlier plot. His purpose was to show Dreda that there are people she can trust, basically.
All right, back to the drawing board. It's going to take a lot longer than I thought to get my plot squared away. But here goes nothing!
Posted by Corky (Member # 2714) on :
Okay, mayflower988, you asked about a "kick in the pants" (also known as "the inciting incident").
How about having Angus be the one who brings a message to Dreda from Meggy? Then she has to struggle with whether or not to believe him, much less trust him to take her to Meggy.
Have him be a mentor to William (some kind of veteran soldier, perhaps, and William has dreams of becoming the next Sheriff?) who is the one who learned that Angus has a message for Dreda from Meggy, and takes him to the convent, and tries to convince Dreda to trust them both.
It's a thought, anyway.
Posted by mayflower988 (Member # 9858) on :
Hmm, that is good. I had thought of Angus being the one to bring the note, but then I didn't think I could use that because it seemed like if that were the case, Angus could just take Dreda to Meggy, and two-thirds of my book would be moot. You do raise a good point, but my difficulty was how would Angus have acquired the note? I have to find a way for him to get it that wouldn't allow for a shortening of my book like I mentioned. Good thoughts, though. Well, as I'm writing this, it's late, so I'll sleep on it and come at it fresh in the morning.
Posted by Corky (Member # 2714) on :
Maybe Angus has it in for Sheriff Edward and/or for brother John. Why would Meggy be the only one ever hurt by John? Maybe Edward became Sheriff to cover up for John, and John has harmed someone Angus cared about. So Angus has been hunting/watching the two brothers for years, and he hooks up with William in order to get his help, and William wants Dreda involved because Meggy is Dreda's sister.
By the way, why are the female names unusual compared to the male names? Especially your main character, Dreda? If Dreda and Meggy are from a culture that has male names like William and John and Edward, why don't they have similarly common names, like Mary and Jane? (I realize that Meggy can be a nickname for Margaret, but where does Dreda come from?)
Posted by mayflower988 (Member # 9858) on :
I got the names from this site: behindthename.com "Dreda" is a shortened form of "Aldreda" or "Etheldreda", which this site says are both medieval English names for women. "Meggy" is a medieval diminutive of "Margaret", a name that the site claims was popular in the Middle Ages. At the time when I picked the male characters' names, I didn't like any of the names this site had for men in medieval England. So I used another site, a name generator: http://nine.frenchboys.net/medievalm.html I think that's where I got the men's names from. It's possible I just picked old-fashioned names to use for the time being until I could decide on some that were more medieval-sounding. I think those names - William, John, Edward - were common as given names in medieval England, but since babies were often named after their parents or godparents, there would be LOTS of men named William, John, etc. and lots of women named Margaret, Aldreda, etc. So they were often given nicknames. I've found some for William that I might use, like Wilkin or Wilmot. I think I'll try to find nicknames for John and Edward, too.
Good ideas about the plot. I'll have to simmer on all these ideas I'm getting and see which one, or two or three, I decide to go with or alternate.
Posted by mayflower988 (Member # 9858) on :
Corky, I re-read these posts, and this part of what you said stuck out to me: "Maybe Angus has it in for Sheriff Edward and/or for brother John. Why would Meggy be the only one ever hurt by John? Maybe Edward became Sheriff to cover up for John, and John has harmed someone Angus cared about. So Angus has been hunting/watching the two brothers for years, and he hooks up with William in order to get his help, and William wants Dreda involved because Meggy is Dreda's sister."
That actually would work out really well with my story. Okay, I'm off to go work on my outline, taking everyone's comments into consideration.
Posted by Corky (Member # 2714) on :
Basically, all I did was offer some motivation for Angus (who, from your outline, didn't seem to have any).
Finding the motivation for your characters is very important, especially in building an outline for your story.
I'm glad I could offer something that will work with what you are trying to accomplish in your novel.
Posted by mayflower988 (Member # 9858) on :
Tempest Dash, the story is mainly about Dreda's inner journey to overcome her fears. The outer action is the quest to find Meggy.
I'm still trying to work on my outline; just now I'm a little overwhelmed trying to think about all the different questions that have been raised.
Posted by mayflower988 (Member # 9858) on :
Tempest Dash, why is the story of Dreda rescuing Meggy not enough to make you read a whole book about it? I was just wondering, because like I said, that's the main outer action. There's also Dreda's inner conflict between fear and trust, plus the subplots of Dreda and William's romance and the sheriff's criminal actions exposed.
Posted by JoBird (Member # 9883) on :
I have written and rewritten my advice on this outline three times, this makes my fourth. Each time I deleted what I wrote before I posted it. I think it's because I'm unsure of how to critique an outline. The things I wrote continued to expand with examples, and almost sort of started rewriting the outline itself. Which I felt was rude on my part, and probably unwanted on yours.
So. I'm going to try to limit myself to some basic thoughts and comments this time.
1. Your comments about your novel lead me to believe that you wish to tell a character story. Here are some things to keep in mind if that is the case:
-a character story deals with a change of role that the main character goes through. In this case, Dreda decides that her life as a sister in the convent is not what she wants. She'd rather find her sister, and (ultimately) be with William. -a character story tends to start as close to the main character attempting to change her role in life as possible. Some small beginning room is available to give the reader an idea of what her current role is, then she attempts the change. -her obstacles in a character story tend to be: the challenge of the change itself obviously, but almost more importantly, the reluctance of others to accept her change. Her change in life inevitably impacts others -- some of them react to that change negatively.
Suggestion: try to start in the convent. Show aspects of Dreda's life in the convent. What is she leaving behind?
-that being said, you may have to give some small real estate to the events that led up to her placement in the convent. I would suggest making this scene very quick, and thematically consistent with the rest of the story. Example: Dreda is a child, she's kissing William, exploring her young feelings for the boy. Meggy is urging Dreda to hurry up, to come on already. The madman John appears and kidnaps Meggy. This accomplishes a couple of basic things. It shows that John is dangerous and crazy. It allows Dreda to feel guilt for Meggy's situation (if only she had hurried up, Dreda tells herself), and it allows Dreda to associate her blossoming sense of sexuality with something really bad -- which ties into the vow of chastity that I assume she had to take at the convent. -If you keep the idea of Edward being John's brother then that information should be upfront. Otherwise, in my opinion, it runs the risk of coming across as convenient. So maybe a very quick scene where Dreda is watching (from another room) her father talk to Edward. She catches some small bit of the conversation: Edward is sorry, he'll do what he can to find his brother. Dreda's father is angry, throws something, whatever's appropriate to his character. -You have a chance, still in chapter one, to show Dreda's father drop her off at the convent in a "this is for the best" kind of moment. Then you can play with showing a young Dreda taking her three vows: chastity, poverty, obedience. The audience will not care as much that she breaks her vows knowing that she took them at such a young age, and knowing that she was emotionally distraught when she made these promises that she will inevitably break. As long as she is internally conflicted about breaking them later.
2. The tighter the better. Everything should connect in some manner.
-Ideally, most things are going to be present in the novel for a reason. They should tie together in the tightest manner possible. -Since you already have to show Dreda's life at the convent then maybe you can tie her job there into her discovery of what happened to her sister. Example one: Dreda works in the scriptorium illuminating and copying manuscripts. She copies a list of births from a local village, her sister is listed as the child's mother. This inspires her to want to learn what happened to her sister. Example two: she is out giving alms to the poor when she sees John nearly kill a man. She tries to help the man before realizing that she has to learn more about John, certain that he's the one who took her sister away years ago. The injured man (maybe this Angus fella) tells her where she can find John, and maybe even offers to help. -Regardless of the direction, I suggest that something like this happen by the end of chapter two or three -- the idea to get across is that Dreda is drawn to the outside world, and not perfectly happy in the convent.
3. Get rid of what you don't need.
-your current outline has little place for Angus. If you can't find one that is organic to the story being told, drop him. Even if you love him as a character. It's part of killing your darlings. Material should only be included if it contributes to the story. -the inclusion of Angus runs the potential risk of confusing the reader as to the identity of the love interest. Is it William or Angus?
4. Others resist Dreda's change.
-My knowledge of a medieval convent might be off. But as I understand it things weren't the same back then. Someone couldn't go to a convent and then leave like they can now. These days all nuns are sisters, but not all sisters are nuns. I don't think it was like that back then. I could be completely wrong though. Still, I think times were harder for women back then; it probably wasn't easy to just leave a convent. -So maybe the abbess doesn't want her to leave. Maybe Dreda's father doesn't want her to leave. What happens when Dreda leaves? Maybe they send the sheriff after her, to capture her, and bring her back to the convent. Now Edward is involved, chasing Dreda, making her attempts at leaving the convent (and thus changing her role in life) much harder. -Additionally, maybe Dreda's family isn't particularly welcoming when she returns to her estates. After all, you can never go home, as they say. What she thinks is a happy return leaves her distraught as folks try to hold her to be sent back to the convent. This gives William the chance to offer her asylum, to offer her the aid that he needs to so that your story can progress. It also works as a beat in the rising and falling of action in your second act. (I assume you're going for a three act structure. The key to act two is always conflict.)
5. The Black Moment.
-in a three act structure the end of act two occurs at the black moment. This is when all seems lost, when failure is almost assured. -maybe Edward and John have worked together to capture Dreda and are now taking her back to the convent. -here's the question: what has she learned up until now? Whatever she has learned along the course of her journey should be used to defeat her black moment, to bring her goal back to being realized. Example: Maybe this scene is told from Edward or John's perspective. Dreda has learned that Meggy wants to go live in the convent. Little do the two brothers know that Dreda and Meggy have switched places (maybe they're twins and look a lot alike, whatever, this is just a random example). They are actually delivering Meggy to the convent. Then, when John returns home Dreda is capable of exacting revenge. Meanwhile, William deals with the sheriff. Now William and Dreda are free to marry. -the story ends with the successful transition of Dreda. She has turned from a character who lived in a convent to a character who is vastly different. Dreda now accepts her place in the world.
***
I'm not saying that any of my examples are great. I've used them mostly to try to give an idea of what I mean. Overall, I think your outline needs more conflict, a tighter series of connected events, and more structure appropriate to the type of story it is longing to be.
Again, it's hard to comment on an outline. The success of most plots, in my opinion, revolve around how well you sell what you're trying to say. Without having read what you have I don't have any way of knowing how well you've sold your current series of events. So, as usual, take anything I say as being worth, at best, two cents.
Obviously, a lot of my suggestions work around the idea that John is a legitimate villain. Your outline confuses me in regards to John. I feel like he's a villain: he kidnaps Meggy, and Meggy is worried that he might hurt their child. But still she seems to love John in your outline. A part of me has a hard time with that which is why I suggest that you push him a little more solidly and consistently into the role of villain.
[ July 31, 2012, 11:43 PM: Message edited by: JoBird ]
Posted by mayflower988 (Member # 9858) on :
Wow, JoBird, your ideas are a lot better than mine! You brought up some directions to take that I wasn't even considering. You're right, I had intended this to be more of a character story. Your tips on how to write this are very helpful. It's interesting that you brought up the idea Meggy being kidnapped while Dreda is dawdling, kissing William. That whole theme of Dreda associating her "blossoming sexuality" with something bad is what I was trying to do by giving her an irrational fear of men due to the trauma of Meggy's kidnapping. But your idea works even better; it adds that level of guilt to it. Thanks, that was just the boost I needed to make this work.
However, in my story Dreda never actually takes the vows and becomes a nun. I just have her father sending her there to live as a way to keep her safe. I'm considering having her father called off to war, then he'd send her to make sure she was taken care of while he was gone/in case he doesn't come back. Basically, you've given me a lot of good tips to chew on.
Just one more thing - I'd meant for John to be in such a mental/emotional state that he can't quite be held accountable for his actions. So he acts on impulse, and Edward has to clean up after him. Meggy decides to stay with him to keep an eye on him and take care of him. She takes pity on him rather than loving him. Does that work?
Well, this novel is proving to be an overwhelming task. Thanks everyone for all your help. Keep it coming. I wish I could sit down with all of you in person and talk these things out. Let me know if you have any tips on how to take on such a big project (I've never written a book before).
Posted by mayflower988 (Member # 9858) on :
Okay, JoBird, I've been looking at your comments again, and I don't think I can use any of your ideas, except for the one about Dreda and William kissing when they were young and this being the reason in Dreda's mind why Meggy was kidnapped. However, your comments about the structure of the story are helpful.
Posted by JoBird (Member # 9883) on :
Not a problem. I wouldn't really recommend using the ideas I put forward in most cases anyway -- they were just intended to be examples to illustrate what I meant in terms of conflict, connecting events, and overall structure.
As far as John goes: it's hard to say "no, that won't work" in regards to him being unaccountable for his actions. Personally, I don't think it works the way I'm hearing it, but I'm just one guy with one opinion. After seeing it I may find that I change my mind.
There's a certain bitterness to the ending, and by that I don't really mean bitter-sweet. John is a madman; Meggy has to give up her child, and basically her life because she has pity for this man who kidnapped her, and probably did other horrible things to her. That ending doesn't satisfy me personally. As a writer you will really have to struggle to make the reader feel satisfied with that ending, to create some level of sympathy for John. And it seems like you're working from a disadvantage considering that the reader feels like John is a villain for a big portion of the novel, then, surprise, he's someone who couldn't help himself.
Folks like that might exist, they might not be capable of personal responsibility, but society still has to deal with them. For example, what happens if John goes mad again and kills Meggy, or goes after others, or kidnaps some other girl? The cycle continues? I guess my point is that it's hard to have it both ways. It's hard to say that the guy isn't responsible for his actions (couldn't help himself), but that he won't hurt Meggy in the future. In that sense it feels unresolved to me. Isn't Meggy just cleaning up after him now? Doesn't that mean she's no better than Edward?
Regarding the convent: I get that you want Dreda to just sort of attend the convent for ten years, but why not make her take the vows? Just curious. It seems from my cursory look at your outline that you're avoiding potential conflict there. Again, I get that feeling of trying to have it both ways. On one hand Dreda has been shipped off to a convent. On the other she's hardly stuck there; she's still in control of when she comes and where she goes. So it's like there's this whole block of potential conflict and theme that's thrown out. I'm somewhat curious what the potential benefit to throwing that out is.
Posted by mayflower988 (Member # 9858) on :
Ouch. Yeah, I see what you mean. You are right - I'm the kind of person who doesn't like conflict. I guess that makes it hard for me to write it.
Good point about Meggy. I guess I was trying to be original, but you're right about the cycle continuing and Meggy being no better than Edward.
I think I didn't want to write myself into a corner as far as Dreda taking vows. I knew some nuns in Indonesia who told me that they had two classes of nuns: those who took temporary vows and those who took life-long vows. I wasn't sure if I could get Dreda out of the vows once I had her take them. But something you alluded to (or maybe I just drew this conclusion): conflict is not a hazard, but an opportunity for the book to be good.
Posted by mayflower988 (Member # 9858) on :
Oops, I meant to say that I wasn't sure if they had temporary vows in medieval times.
Posted by JoBird (Member # 9883) on :
quote:conflict is not a hazard, but an opportunity for the book to be good.
Absolutely.
I would even consider changing the word opportunity to necessity.
Anyway, let me know when you finish this novel. I'd love to get a chance to read where you end up taking everything. And good luck with it. I know how tiresome and enormous this process can be. I'm going through it right now myself.
Posted by mayflower988 (Member # 9858) on :
Thanks. I especially appreciate that you said "when you finish this novel" rather than "if you finish this novel". Yes, tiresome and enormous, indeed.
Posted by rabirch (Member # 9832) on :
quote:Originally posted by mayflower988: Conflict is not a hazard, but an opportunity for the book to be good.
I just wanted to pull this out again, because I think it's such a huge point, and one that I need to internalize better for myself.