Hatrack River Writers Workshop: Dangerous Knowledge

This is topic Dangerous Knowledge in forum Fragments and Feedback for Books at Hatrack River Writers Workshop.

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Posted by jdt (Member # 3889) on :

Before I post this, let me thank you folks for your help. I've been lurking for some months and your feedback to other's work has made me go back and rework this opening to the point of obsession. Maybe just one more quick edit...

Michael Patriate looked back at the way he came, hoping again for a clue about where he was. His footprints dotted the muddy, rutted road to the top of the hill; no other signs of civilization intruded on a scrubby landscape. _Not even a stinking utility pole._

Someone would pay for this, Michael told himself. It must have been the guys at Ransel Group. Who else would want to get rid of him this badly? The deal was closing soon and he needed to be there to beat them out of it. He wouldn’t have thought those guys would resort to kidnapping, but you never knew how far some people would go to make that kind of money. Well, they wouldn’t get away with it.

Posted by jdt (Member # 3889) on :

p.s.

Novel, approximately 81000, historical(?) fiction

Posted by Tanglier (Member # 1313) on :

It's fine. You get everything you need to get across, across. There is something clunky about the language. I don't know if it's word-choice or meter. Or maybe it's the thought progression that's jarring. I can't put my finger on it. Read it aloud a few times, and if it makes sense to you, ignore what I'm saying.

Posted by arriki (Member # 3079) on :

Well, one thing I see as a problem

You don't need the hoping bit. Make it more active. Like maybe --

Michael Patriate looked back at the way he had come. His footprints dotted the muddy, rutted road to the top of the hill; no other sign of civilization intruded on the scrubby landscape. Not even a stinking utility pole.

Posted by wbriggs (Member # 2267) on :

quote:
Michael Patriate looked back at the way he came, hoping again for a clue about where he was. [What century and country are we in?] His footprints ...
Someone would pay for this, Michael told himself. [Pay for what?] ...

I think this will be a very helpful discussion: just about the *ordering* of information, so that we can follow the story more easily.

Why the problem with the first 13 isn't that it isn't enough http://www.hatrack.com/forums/writers/forum/Forum1/HTML/002662.html

Posted by jdt (Member # 3889) on :

Thanks for the critique. I've looked at the discussions on the "first 13," etc. I know it's a bit of a special case, but the techniques seem to apply to writing in general. If the story starts off with poor writing, it probably won't get much better. Every word counts. You need to tell a story instead of listing events. I'm learning not to list, but it's a challenge.

I have a question on openings, hooks, etc. In the first thirteen lines of this story, The MC talks about a "deal" and antagonist who may have put him in this spot. But he's only supposing and doesn't figure out where or, more importantly, when he is for a while. The deal and the antagonist don't show up again until the very end, and then they aren't very important. The MC doesn't have this information: does the reader need it? Bad start?

This is a rewrite of the version I first posted. Maybe it's improved. We'll see. Thanks again.

Michael Patriate looked back at the way he came. His footprints dotted the muddy, rutted road to the top of the hill; no other signs of civilization intruded on a scrubby landscape—not even a stinking utility pole. Someone would pay for dumping him here like this.
Who would want to get rid of him this badly? Somebody at Ransel Group? The Pharma-Nussbaum deadline <em>was</em> coming up in a couple of days. It was Wilson, had to be. “Wilson the Weasel.” Michael wouldn’t have thought the guy would resort to kidnapping, but you never knew how far some people would go to make that kind of money. Well, the Weasel wouldn’t beat Michael out of this deal. If he could just get to a phone.

Posted by Hunter (Member # 4991) on :

Overall, I think this beginning is fine. I have a few rewording suggestions that are indicated in brackets.

Michael Patriate looked back at the way he [had come.] (I'm no grammarian, but I think having him look back the way he came sounds off.)

His footprints dotted the muddy, rutted road to the top of the hill; no other signs of civilization intruded on [the] scrubby landscape—not even a stinking utility pole. (How deep is the mud? I'm not sure how well someone can see their footprints from so far away without it being snow or really muddy.)

Someone would pay for dumping him [out] here like this. Who would want to get rid of him this badly? Somebody at Ransel Group? The Pharma-Nussbaum deadline [em]was[/em] coming up in a couple of days. [It had to be Wilson. "Wilson The Weasel".] (It seems a little redundant the way you have it now. But I think I would give the guy's full name with the nickname embedded in it. Like: (first name) "The Weasel" Wilson. But that's just me.)

Michael [had never] thought the guy would resort to kidnapping, but you never knew how far some people would go to make that kind of money. Well, the Weasel wouldn’t beat Michael out of this deal. If he could just get to a phone. (He'd do what if he reached a phone? This is a fragment which does seem to need resolution. You could end it with ellipses if you mean for the thought to trail off.)

[This message has been edited by Hunter (edited April 01, 2007).]

Posted by nitewriter (Member # 3214) on :

There are alot of loose ends here. I think what is supposed to interest me as plot is only confusing me because there are no answers to some basic information we need. Perhaps you are starting in the wrong place. Consider starting from the kidnapping itself, in which case the resulting dialogue would give us information we can work with. Not only that, the situation would be much more engaging to the reader. Also, this situation is hard to believe. What this really amounts to here is that the kidnappers merely gave him a ride somewhere. Didn't kill him, injure him, tie him up, or even keep him to bring about whatever result they are after (ransom, information, etc.)

Posted by Zero (Member # 3619) on :

contrary to popular mythology, we don't need you to answer the questions you pose in the first 13; in the first 13. It may even feel contrived if you shoot questions at us and answers that quickly.

Posted by kings_falcon (Member # 3261) on :

What is in the 13 has to be clear. I'm not hooked because you are withholding.

Michael knows what "the deal" is. I need to know it, at least in general terms, once he mentions it.

So, if I understand what happened . . . Michael wakes up on the side of some road out in the country somewhere. He thinks he's fallen prey to some desprate attempt to keep him from submitting something to someone by the Pharma-Nessbaum the who? deadline a few days away. There's a lot of money at stake. Michael wants to win/get/something this deal.

Setting aside whether a rival would just dump him in the country or actually hold him someplace until the deadline passed, things are too vague for me to care. Not the description, mind, but what Michael actually thinks about why he's been dumped in the country.

The description was well done. Although it made me wonder if he should be wet or at least muddy himself.

Posted by Zero (Member # 3619) on :

I may be an anomoly, however, I think not knowing what the deal is is the hook that pulls me in. On the one hand if I don't know what it is, I might not care about it. However, if I don't know what it is I might, instead, want to read on to find out what it is. I can already tell our hero is doing something he believes in against ruthless opposition, so that might, dare I say it, be enough to lull me into wanting to find out what the deal actually is. I reject the notion that there isn't enough clarity--as if it was a non-coherent gibberish of ideas on paper. I like it.

Not to mention if you tell us what the deal is, you're still running the risk of me not caring about it.

I generally think people expect too much of the first 13 lines, which are basically free anyway.

Posted by InarticulateBabbler (Member # 4849) on :

IMHO, you could rearrange and tighten a little:

quote:

Michael Patriate had been abducted. The road he peeled himself off of was in such disrepair that he guessed it was long-abandoned. He was alone and in a desolate place, with a terrible, throbbing lump on the back of his head and thoughts full of suspects.
It had to be about the Pharma-Nussbaum deal. That was the only thing that was worth a damn he was into. Who was it? Somebody at Ransel Group? The Pharma-Nussbaum Company? Jerry Wilson? Wilson the Weasel, he thought. Could he have been so desperate? It was a whole lot of money.
He walked in the direction that his feet had been facing. He had to find a house. Somebody would know where he was; or would have a phone. Someone had to...

I added some suspicion of the company he has the deal with--beacause realistically I would be suspicious of everyone.

However, unless something essential happens to Michael on his trip back, I would ask myself if it should start here or pick up form when he gets back?

Does the story happen on his trip back?

Was it an arms deal or some type that is of questionable legality?

Is Wilson "the Weasel" from a competing company or competing within Michael's own firm?

Was it really an alien abduction, and Michael's suspicions wayyyyyy off?

Either the truth about the deal or the abduction needs clarification. To me.

[This message has been edited by InarticulateBabbler (edited April 02, 2007).]

Posted by jdt (Member # 3889) on :

Who would have thought that writing thirteen little lines would be so hard?

I says to myself: "'Pharma' anything says 'drug company', so Pharma-Nussbaum must be some kind of big multi-national drug merger or something." Incidentally, there are lots of companies named Pharma-(fill in the blank). Nussbaum (German) looked like one that wouldn't get me sued.

So now I says to myself: "Yes, you can be too subtle. Just tell them."

From the diverging speculations and questions, though, it seems to me that I'm starting in the wrong place. The big mega-deal that grabs the focus isn't really important. I was going for the "what could have possibly put me in this situation?" question, and filling in the answers I thought the MC might grab.

The primary question, I think, might be: "how do I not die out here?", which isn't far away, but... Then the secondary stuff.

Back to it.

I appreciate the help. I know criticism can be unpleasant, but it's very helpful to me. Thanks.

Posted by jdt (Member # 3889) on :

Well, I have one more stab at it here. Went a different direction and reordered much of the first chapter with emphasis on the situation and dropped some things that got in the way. Thanks!

He had to have a drink soon. Michael Patriate looked back up the hill, where only a crooked, rutted road admitted that civilization had ever touched this rolling landscape. The pond lay on the other side of that hilltop. He was thirsty when he passed it an hour ago, but couldn’t bring himself to drink the greenish liquid. Now he knew he was in trouble.

Was it only twenty four hours ago when he remembered leaving the New York office? That’s what his watch was telling him. But it also read just past midnight and the sun said late afternoon. Which was lying? And if the month was September, why were the trees and grass just now greening?

Michael sat in the precious shade of an ancient tree, contemplating the dust on his wingtips. He had to go back. In a minute.

Posted by DebbieKW (Member # 5058) on :

This hooks me a lot better than the pervious version. I'm in a hurry and saw no real problems. This is not a problem, but the answers to those questions he asks could easily be "he's on the other hemisphere of the planet." Since he has wingtips, he doesn't sound human, though, so it's a little strange that the months and seasons and hours all correlate to those of the north hemisphere of Earth. There's no need to change it. Just bringing up one gal's impressions and thoughts.

Posted by jdt (Member # 3889) on :

Dang.

Make that wingtip SHOES. Change the perspective up a little? Sorry, I'm an old guy. And, yes, I still wear wingtips, but only when necessary.

Posted by KayTi (Member # 5137) on :

I just read something funny about this in one of OSC's writing books. Sci-Fi readers will take you LITERALLY. You write "wingtips" thinking of the shoes, but they will take a literal interpretation and think there's some sort of wing-tipped contraption somewhere.

It's one of the interesting challenges of writing for sci-fi. In a way, SF readers will take the bait a lot easier than mainstream readers might, but you also have to watch out for exactly this sort of thing! LOL

I'm pretty sure that was in How to Write Science Fiction and Fantasy (a great writing book, FWIW) - however I'm also reading Characters and Viewpoints, so it could be either.