Hatrack River Writers Workshop: First 13 lines to a novel

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Posted by InarticulateBabbler (Member # 4849) on :

Though it was past curfew, Woodsedge was neither still nor silent. A man's silhouette bobbed, weaved, and bounded from rooftop to rooftop. Pantroth moved through the moonlit city with all the grace and stealth of a hungry panther--just another nocturnal preditor trackings its prey among inky shadows.

Guards paced atop the five-story-high city walls. Woodsedge sprawled before them like a proud exhibit under their watchful eyes. The Kingsguard were as dedicated to their duties as religious fanatics were to their beliefs. They kept a diligent watch on their partners, for they were punished as pairs.

Pantroth slipped over the edge of a thatched roof. He

[This message has been edited by InarticulateBabbler (edited January 25, 2007).]

Posted by Max Masterson (Member # 4799) on :

I'm not sure I would put the second paragraph in just yet. I'm more interested in the character Pantroth and who he is following and why. I only need to know about the guards if they affect him. When they are mentioned it's not really in connection with him. If you had said that he saw a guard and in some way evaded it's attention then it's relevant. I'd prefer to get the description of the city through his eyes so i can start to learn who he is.

just my thoughts

Posted by wbriggs (Member # 2267) on :

I had to reread once I figured out that Woodsedge was not a person.

We're introduced to this figure crawling around at night, but we don't know why he's doing it. I'd say: pick a POV, make it clear who that is, and tell us whatever the POV knows that's relevant.

Posted by Spartan (Member # 4662) on :

Ditto.^^

Also, I think you have too many adjectives. They're very descriptive, but it's distracting when you cram so many into the same sentence.

Posted by Grijalva (Member # 3295) on :

I decided to just copy and paste your story and put my opinions in brackets.

quote:
Though it was past curfew, [Why not say "the town of" here?] Woodsedge was neither still nor silent. [Is somone watching this man, if not why not just introduce who this is, if it's Pantroth.] A man's silhouette bobbed, weaved, and bounded from rooftop to rooftop. Pantroth moved through the moonlit city with all the grace and stealth of a hungry panther--just another nocturnal preditor trackings its prey among inky shadows.
[Are these Pantrorth's thoughts? If they are, say so.] Guards paced atop the five-story-high city walls. Woodsedge sprawled before them like a proud exhibit under their watchful eyes. The Kingsguard were as dedicated to their duties as religious fanatics were to their beliefs. They kept a diligent watch on their partners, for they were punished as pairs.
Pantroth slipped over the edge of a thatched roof. He

I feel that you hold back too much information. I know that your trying to make this suspenseful and it should be, but right now it's just confusing. You have a perfect opportunity here to go into your MC's head and show us the world.

Posted by Survivor (Member # 213) on :

POV.

And Woodsedge isn't a character? Whoa.

Posted by InarticulateBabbler (Member # 4849) on :

Attempt 2, after your suggestions:

Pantroth moved through the moonlit city of Woodsedge with all the grace of a cat--just another nocturnal predator tracking its prey through the shadows. His eyes swept over the cramped metropolis with disdain. Cities surrounded by such high walls made him feel caged. Pantroth's gaze returned to the trader, whose brisk pace proved him unaware that death looked down upon him.

As merchants were wont to do, the rotund man had to flaunt his opulence with a ridiculous display of garish attire. Even his walking stick was coated in gold. Though two armed guards flanked him, they looked bored.

It would be easy to make his death look like a theft, Pantroth thought.

[This message has been edited by InarticulateBabbler (edited January 25, 2007).]

Posted by Survivor (Member # 213) on :

Hmm...much better. The phrase "all the grace of a cat" in self-reference sorta strains the POV, but not too bad. I like this, though I wonder whether the other scene could have worked as well.

Anyway, I might read a chapter sometime.

Posted by oliverhouse (Member # 3432) on :

I would have dittoed all of the comments on the first version, and now I ditto Survivor on the second. I'd keep reading.

I do have one minor issue. "All the grace of a..." seems better finished by a sarcastic "hippopotamus" rather than literal "cat". The "just" seems to undermine the "another nocturnal predator", as if he were no big deal. Maybe it's just me (and I definitely think you should seek out second opinions), but if it were me I'd strengthen those two items up.

You might also be slightly adjective-heavy. Again, YMMV.

Neither of those would have stopped me from reading, though.

Posted by wbriggs (Member # 2267) on :

I don't know until we're well into it what MC is planning (murder) and I never did find out why. I want to know both, up front. Why *not* tell us?

That would stop me from reading. However, I like the glimpses into MC's mind (his contempt for the merchant).

Posted by oliverhouse (Member # 3432) on :

Interesting. Right at the beginning, Mr. Babbler calls Pantroth a predator stalking his prey. I didn't notice that he didn't say _explicitly_ that he was going to kill the merchant. Wbriggs, do you really think he needs to?

I also didn't blink at not knowing why he's going to kill the merchant. I'm analyzing my reaction after the fact, which isn't terribly reliable, but I think he seemed focused on the task at hand rather than they _why_ of the task at hand. Know what I mean?

I'd be interested in other people's thoughts on this.

Regards,
Oliver

Posted by Green_Writer (Member # 3302) on :

Yes. Stick with Wbriggs advice. It almost seems like you're writing the opening to a movie. One shot with Woodsedge, the next with the knife, and the next with Pantroth.

Posted by Survivor (Member # 213) on :

I think that Pantroth isn't particularly concerned with why he's killing the merchant. Or rather, he's killing him because that's his job. It's no biggie to him. It's like why he's running around on rooftops in the first version (actually, I think that he's also doing it in the second, but it isn't real clear). He's a ninja-type. Jumping from roof to roof and carrying out assassinations are what he does.

Posted by InarticulateBabbler (Member # 4849) on :

Surivor has hit the nail on the head. Pantroth is doing a job he is paid to do.

I appreciate all the suggestions. It is difficult to fit a lot in those first thirteen lines.

I am an avid reader, and I don't know if I would read a lot of novels, judging them by the first thirteen lines. LOL I usually give an author thirty to fifty pages to pull me in.

Posted by undef (Member # 4784) on :

Wow. I really have to disagree with wbriggs' insistence on knowing every last detail, at the earliest available moment. wbriggs, here is a version that might supply your need for instant gratification ;-) :

quote:
Pantroth, a man who is inherently good --though most people wouldn't notice it at first, because he kills people-- looked down from the rooftops of Woodsedge --a town with a charismatically likeable, but secretly corrupt, mayor-- at the man he was here to kill. The man was a rich, arrogant merchant in the town. Pantroth was here to kill the man because...

</sarcasm>

Babbler, I would keep reading, and have the attention span (longer than most editors', perhaps) to give you a few dozen lines to open your story. I don't want all the facts to be reveled in the first few sentences... :-)

Posted by Survivor (Member # 213) on :

I think that wbriggs expressed a concern that would certainly be legitimate for many readers. Not everyone is prepared to accept that the first character introduced is going to kill someone as a matter of course. Some readers would need a definite justification for such an action on the part of the character, and it is genuinely absent here.

Posted by oliverhouse (Member # 3432) on :

Come on, undel, you're new here and you're going to be sarcastic? You don't even know yet how valuable wbriggs's advice is.

wbriggs has an extremely low tolerance for being kept in the dark -- lower than mine, true, and I don't always agree with him. So be it. No two people have precisely the same reaction to any passage.

But here's the important thing: not revealing important information is a rookie mistake. The rookies often don't notice they're making it. Speaking as a rookie, I think that when he speaks up, he's performing a service. You don't have to take his advice, but what do you gain by disparaging him for it?

And you should note that having a greater tolerance for X than an editor does isn't an asset if you're trying to get editors to read and buy your material. Mr. Babbler isn't writing for you -- he's writing for an audience.

[This message has been edited by oliverhouse (edited January 26, 2007).]

Posted by Ash (Member # 4615) on :

I am going to disagree with wbriggs on this one. I like not knowing everything up front, and I think we got enough of the important stuff to carry the scene, which buys time enough for the real plot to reveal itself, because obviously, this murder will take place in only moments, while the story had better have a little more meat to it than one murder of an opulent merchant, meat which, no matter what, will not fit in the first page. As long as we get the basics soon afterward, I would say that the little bit of suspense has more positive effect than negative. But hey, take this with a grain of salt, because wbriggs is a genius at this stuff, with more experience than most folks will ever have, and I am an unpublished rookie, with a knack for killing the first character I introduce by then end of the second page, usually at the MC's hands. Yet one must speak his own thoughts, not anothers.

Posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (Member # 59) on :

Time out.

And time for some clarification of how things work around here:

Disagreeing with another participant's feedback is completely okay, especially if you support your opinion well.

Being sarcastic about it is not. Sarcasm tends to imply that you can't support your disagreement in any other way.

Posted by Survivor (Member # 213) on :

Yeah...giving honest feedback in a helpful spirit can be difficult if you have to worry about people ragging on you. Of course, wbriggs can easily take care of himself in a debate, but that's not our rule here. We're not here to "win", we're here to cooperate.

Posted by InarticulateBabbler (Member # 4849) on :

Wow. I didn't intend to stir proverbial hornets' nest.

I appreciate all critiques, even ones that I personally don't agree with--sometimes especially those.

I would like to thank everyone that gave an opinion.

Posted by undef (Member # 4784) on :

My apologies. The <sarcasm> tags were intended to make the comment light-hearted and not at all mean-spirited. Common parlance on other sites I haunt... Forum-newbie mistake.

Here is a more directly substantive explanation of my opinion:

We are reading thirteen lines -- around 100 words. As a reader, I don't expect to know everything about the entire novel, or story, or character, or scene, or even image, in the first 100 words. I believe it is okay for the reader to be "confused" for a sentence while the author fills in the details. To expect immediate understanding word-by-word is to deny me the richness of experience that can come from a progressive revelation of detail.

I like to have details presented artfully, when they come in a natural order, on-time.

Here is what I thought as I read:

quote:

Pantroth moved (Pantroth, a named character, so he's important)
through the moonlit city (So, it's nighttime, a bit unusual...)
of Woodsedge with all the grace of a cat (...more unusual. He's sneaking.)
--just another nocturnal predator tracking its prey through the shadows (He's not just sneaking, he's following or hunting something, and "nocturnal predators" do this a lot.).
His eyes swept over the cramped metropolis with disdain (Big city, and he feels superior here - wonder why?).
Cities surrounded by such high walls made him feel caged. (Oh, that's why. I wonder where he's from, then?)
Pantroth's gaze returned to the trader, (Is that who he's following?)
whose brisk pace proved him unaware that death looked down upon him (it is who he's following, and Pantroth means to kill him! Wonder why?).
As merchants were wont to do, the rotund (Visual picture coming into focus...)
man had to flaunt his opulence with a ridiculous display of garish attire. (Really getting the visual now)
Even his walking stick was coated in gold. (Not just rich, but stupid rich. Okay.)
Though two armed guards flanked him, (False sense of security?)
they looked bored. (Yep! This guy's gonna die.)
It would be easy to make his death look like a theft, Pantroth thought. (And Pantroth is a skilled killer)

See? There's no withheld information, there. This is not the author preventing me from knowing anything. It's the author leading me into a scene, each detail taking me deeper and deeper into the action.

I certainly appreciate that there are many very talented people here. I very much appreciate their willingness to share with up-and-coming talent. I chose wbriggs as a foil because (s)he seems to be well-respected, but also seems (based on the last dozen or so posts I had randomly read) to say the same things a lot. "I don't like to be confused." "Why not tell me now?" "I want to know, up front."

I don't want to know that up-front. I'm willing to read more than a hundred words to know every motivation, and intent, and backstory of the introduced character. Comments about withheld information are appropriate for most of the fragments I've read, but not this one. This one leads the reader nicely into the scene, revealing each bit of detail in a flowing order. Just as I would ask myself a question, it would be answered in the next moment. I guess I was bothered that here, finally, was a good example of what I'm calling "progressive revelation" but it got the same critique as so many others, with an insistence on only "up-front" knowledge.

I'm willing to give an author a few seconds of my attention span; if an editor is not, that says something about her ability to market to me. I interpret helping "convey the beautiful story in the writer's head to the reader" to be different from "getting a manuscript past an ADD editor." (That's where I would have put sarcasm tags, to note that I'm grinning as I write it.)

wbriggs, thank you for being my non-volunteer foil. As I say above, I chose you because you seem to be widely respected, you make many very well-reasoned critiques, and I was just reacting to your post. No offense intended. That's what all the smilies and sarcasm's were for. If offense was received, I whole-heartedly apologize.

InarticulateBabbler, I've already read your new post, and liked it, as well. This response was simply a reaction that I enjoyed reading, and appreciated the way you led me into the scene. Thank you for your willingness to share.

Russ

Edited for formatting

[This message has been edited by undef (edited January 29, 2007).]