WriterDan
mrmeadors
 

Writer Dan
mrmeadors
Wonderbus
 

And as a side note, I have a winning story for this quarter. No bones. After reading all these freaking WotF anthologies, I've finally come up with an idea-story that I think the judges'll latch onto. Guess we'll see.
 

Writer Dan
mrmeadors
Wonderbus
LDWriter2

If it's not the story I'm working on now, I'll come up with another idea.
 

quote:

---

And as a side note, I have a winning story for this quarter. No bones. After reading all these freaking WotF anthologies, I've finally come up with an idea-story that I think the judges'll latch onto. Guess we'll see.

---

But then who'll run this group? Oh, lament, and lamentations. At least snapper can go on to be judge of the WOTF challenge he does, but no one else runs a WOTF group quite like you do Dan.

[This message has been edited by Brendan (edited June 02, 2011).]
 

Writer Dan
mrmeadors
Wonderbus
LDWriter2
Meredith

 

Writer Dan
mrmeadors
Wonderbus
LDWriter2
Meredith
Owasm
 

Finished my story today. But it's a bit longer than I anticipated. !0,303 words long. I think I can cut that down. The length may not be bad for WotF but I don't think this story should be that long. But we shall see once we get around to critted stories in what in a couple...three months?
 

Mel

Perhaps something you rejected because you thought editors-readers wouldn't like it or was too boring or....

Let's rock!

Writer Dan
mrmeadors
Wonderbus
LDWriter2
Meredith
Owasm
Crank

S!
S!

 

Tom

Thomas K. Carpenter
www.thomaskcarpenter.com

 

-Francis
 

Writer Dan
mrmeadors
Wonderbus
LDWriter2
Meredith
Owasm
Crank
thomaskcarpenter ?
francisbruno ?
Coralm

Seriously... come to think of it I still need to revise it and triple check for nitpicks... for me those things are as bad as cockroaches ; they're always hiding and multiplying.

[This message has been edited by LDWriter2 (edited June 29, 2011).]
 

Writer Dan
mrmeadors
Wonderbus
LDWriter2
Meredith
Owasm
Crank
thomaskcarpenter ?
francisbruno ?
Coralm
Brendan
 

Writer Dan
mrmeadors
Wonderbus
LDWriter2
Meredith
Owasm
Crank
thomaskcarpenter ?
francisbruno
Coralm
Brendan
 

Writer Dan
mrmeadors
Wonderbus
LDWriter2
Meredith
Owasm
Crank
thomaskcarpenter ?
francisbruno
Coralm
Brendan
Utahute72
 

Writer Dan
mrmeadors
Wonderbus
LDWriter2
Meredith
Owasm
Crank
thomaskcarpenter ?
francisbruno
Coralm
Brendan
Utahute72
wirelesslibrarian
 

I'm new to the Hatrack Group, but not new to writing. Can I join? I have been working on my WotF 4th Qtr 2011 submission for some time and is almost ready for a crit.

Writer Dan
mrmeadors
Wonderbus
LDWriter2
Meredith
Owasm
Crank
thomaskcarpenter ?
francisbruno
Coralm
Brendan
Utahute72
wirelesslibrarian
mbwood

Did I do this correctly?
 

I also have not been part of a Hatrack WOTF critique group before; therefore, just remind me of my responsibilities when appropriate.

Writer Dan
mrmeadors
Wonderbus
LDWriter2
Meredith
Owasm
Crank
thomaskcarpenter ?
francisbruno
Coralm
Brendan
Utahute72
wirelesslibrarian
mbwood
History (Dr. Bob)

Respectfully,
Dr. Bob
 

And this group seems larger than last time. That doesn't matter-even though it could mean a couple more crits to do- and is probably good, if I'm right.
 

Then again, if you all cringe at the length of this story, with so many participants this quarter, I will voluntarily withdraw it upon request.

Respectfully,
Dr. Bob
 

[This message has been edited by Brendan (edited July 04, 2011).]
 

My story looks like it may be too long as well, but it's too early to judge yet. I will probably cut a whole bunch out when I go through it and revise the first time (before I send it to you guys).
 

[This message has been edited by Brendan (edited July 04, 2011).]
 

Actually, come to think of it 3,000 words out of a 20,000 words isn't that high a percentage. I don't know if you can find that much cutting without ruining the tale- some stories are meant to be long- but at the same time it might be worth looking into.

I've had that problem a time or three but not for a while.

[This message has been edited by LDWriter2 (edited July 04, 2011).]
 

There also just happens to be a paragraph in my opening post this quarter about word/page limit.

@History: Best way that I know of to make a story shorter is to make it simpler. Fewer characters is a big one. There really shouldn't be more than two POV characters if you're planning on having arcs for all of them. Fewer plot points is also key. More than one is tough. More than two gets near impossible to keep within the limits. Simplify. Simplify. Simplify. That'll take you a long way, in my opinion.

@LDWriter2: We've actually hit my critical mass of 15 people for the quarter. So, there'll be three groups again, which puts the groups at 5 entrants a piece. So, not so many more crits to do.

Nother week to go, and I SO need to write something still. Glad to see so many others are ready to go though. Should help this quarter to move along nicely.
 

to whom will I have to send my ms (entry) for critting? I see the list is quite long, and I wonder how many pieces will I have to crit to get my piece critiqued?

I generally allocate about four hours per forty standard ms pages for a quick critique - twice that for an in depth read and write-up, giving detailed suggestions type critique. With fourteen writers already listed, the crit demands will be significant to do every one in time available and do a re-write...

Of course, if every entry is polished to perfection, the read will be a pleasure!

Just let me know the rules and I'll do my best.

Remember the first rule of writing... Write!
MBW
 

With this many, generally the group would be split into groups of about 5 or 6. That means that the first round will have different readers from the second round, and stories for the second round are more polished.

Tom
 

I have only one POV in my KABBALIST stories.
I do have a number of secondary characters, however; and I anticipate truncating or eliminating one or two to meet word count restrictions. I look forward to suggestions from Q4 WOTF participants in this regard.

Utahute72 wrote: I've been reading through the past winners and most are in the range of 5 to 8 thousand words. I have taken that to mean that while a longer story might have enough merit to win you are climbing uphill to get there.

Well, I've just finished my first draft and it comes in a little over 19K words. By your analysis, I've just dropped my chances of "winning" three to four-fold.

But I'll take a day or two to enjoy the warm fuzzy feeling of accomplishment that comes with completing a story. Then this weekend I'll pick it up again and be horrified by how much work it needs.

Respectfully,
Dr. Bob

[This message has been edited by History (edited July 06, 2011).]
 

The second round is more line edits, information changes, minor character and theme improvements, etc., i.e. assuming it works on the big scale, what small improvements can be made.

I should say, this is what I hope to do. Sometimes it is seriously flawed still at the second round, so I would revert to an effective first round edit.

So, if I'm in your group for the first round, expect a big picture discussion of the story.

[This message has been edited by Brendan (edited July 06, 2011).]
 

OK, back to writing.
 

The story is based on an idea I've been sitting on for a few years, periodically adding a hand-written passage or a digital audio file of random thoughts to the collection of notes, but never actually writing the story itself. The reason I joined this group was to jolt me out of my sittng position and actually get this story out there; I like it too much to see it go nowhere.

I'm definitely out of my comfort zone this time...but, maybe, after only two Honorable Mentions in my last three submissions, this jolt will make a positive difference in how I tell my story. I'm excited to find out.

S!
S!

 

Writer Dan
mrmeadors
Wonderbus
LDWriter2
Meredith
Owasm
Crank
thomaskcarpenter
francisbruno
Brendan
Utahute72
wirelesslibrarian
mbwood
History (Dr. Bob)
Tiergan
 

Writer Dan
mrmeadors
Wonderbus
LDWriter2
Meredith
Owasm
Crank
thomaskcarpenter
francisbruno
Coralm
Brendan
Utahute72
wirelesslibrarian
mbwood
History (Dr. Bob)
Tiergan

 

The extra time may be helpful with a group this large.

Respectfully,
Dr. Bob
 

Dr. Bob
 

Going with 4 groups of 4 for now, and hoping that everything works out. Have at it, people. Oh, and if anyone needs to update the group list (additions/dropouts), please do so. I'll try to keep things current with this list as we go.

Group1:
Writer Dan
Meredith
francisbruno
wirelesslibrarian

Group2:
mrmeadors
Owasm
Coralm
mbwood

Group3:
Wonderbus
Crank
Brendan
History (Dr. Bob)

Group4:
LDWriter2
thomaskcarpenter
Utahute72
Tiergan

<<continues searching for some ice and ibuprofen...>>
 

On the top of each post is a date and three icons. The first one leads to the information page. The email address is one piece of information available, if the person had put in their info here. If they haven't, then ask them here to email you. At a last resort, if two people of reticent at putting their email address up there, you can have one place it up in the thread here and then edit it out again, when the person has it.
 

Speaking of some people being late last time and possibly one or two for this exchange I realized last night That I never finished revising my story. Oops. Since I have crit to do tonight--tomorrow at the latest-- on a difficult story and I want to finish the revision of chapter one of a novel finished by Friday so I can send it to two readers, I may not be sending out my story 'till Saturday.

Got a lot of writing work to do this week but not much actual writing.

Second thing is you can also get the e-mail address by clicking on the middle icon-- the one that looks like a letter. A page comes up with just the address. Click on the address. When I do that a separate E-mail program opens-- it came with the computer. But it doesn't send attachments very well so I usually ignore it and copy the address to my yahoo-att E-mail .

[This message has been edited by LDWriter2 (edited July 12, 2011).]
 

Melanie

PS--Ouch, Dan, I hope your ankles feel better!!

[This message has been edited by mrmeadors (edited July 13, 2011).]
 

Tom
 

Story distributed to my group.
MBW
 

Respectfully,
Dr. Bob
 

1)Thomaskcarpenter - I received your story, and will be going over it this weekend.

2)And to all in my group, I should be passing mine on Saturday or Sunday.

Tiergan
 

Make that one story... another story wasn't for this group.

[This message has been edited by LDWriter2 (edited July 16, 2011).]
 

Okay, I just sent out my story.

And I still have only one sent to me.

That leaves two stories unaccounted for.....

Not quite AWOL but ....

Just kidding I know busy and I will be getting them soon. No worries.
 

Edited: As in sent out to the butcher shop, not submitted.

[This message has been edited by Tiergan (edited July 17, 2011).]
 

Melanie
 

But I sent out one tonight and will send a second tomorrow. Thursday at the latest.

Looks like we have a wide assortment for the contest this time around. Knowing the other writers here with such so many different stories something should win and a something else get in the finals, and semi.

Respectfully,
Dr. Bob
 

Seems like I still need to receive one more but with so many crits floating around back and forth this week I need to double check.
 

I've received all three crits of my submission - Thank you, thank you, and thank you again! Most helpful and quite useful.

I'm looking forward to receiving the remaining two submission so that I may crit them in return.

Best!
MBW
 

Respectfully,
Dr. Bob

 

Dr. Bob, you will have my story within the next few days. You'll also have my crit of your story around the same time.

S!
S!

[This message has been edited by Crank (edited July 25, 2011).]
 

If I missed anyone in my group, please let me know.
THanks again.
 

Now I just have to get my story written. lol. Actually, I got the first scene done tonight. A lot changed about my story last week, and I think the changes made were for the better. I still need to do better about getting these things out closer to deadline though.

Hope everything is going well with the groups for the first round. A lot of the conversation here seems to point in that direction. Thanks, everyone, for participating. Makes things so much easier and so much fun when we get a good, big group.
 

I wanted to do a SF this time but my idea wasn't quite SF.
Do they like streampunk? I had an idea that might be something different for the stuff I usually see in streampunk.

But back to this quarter looks like I may not be doing much fresh writing this week either since I have some restructuring to do... that might be too strong a word but some things need to be deleted and redone a bit. In this case I can do all that without changing the story. A bit shorter probably wouldn't hurt either.
 

Melanie
 

I've just finished a story and would be glad to stand in for you.

Ironically, it's steampunk. Are a collective of great minds thinking alike this quarter or what?

Let me know. Either way I'm bumming/trading crits with folks so it's cool.

Axe
 

But I'm not sure if I can get it further than 5,000 words and that could very well be a stretch. I have the opening, obviously, and the basic for an ending but not too sure about the middle.

Of course, interesting enough, the same thing applies to the steampunk story.

You know a story about flowing water and punks may not be bad either.
 

Melanie
 

I'll send out soon.

Axe
 

Okay, Axeminister is taking Melanie's place, and I've already received his piece. So, I've just sent my piece out to him.

Well, Melanie, I still owe you a crit in exchange for the thoughtful and helpful pointers you gave me. Perhaps this is better, giving yourself enough time to avoid rushing out a piece. If you do finish it, I'll go over it for you.

Let's see if we can get some winners in our group!

Remember the first rule of writing... Write!
MBW
 

http://forum.writersofthefuture.com/

Hatrackers always welcome, and invited!

REMINDER: make sure your fantastic or spec element shows up strong and early in your story! The Contest specifically looks for this. Magic or science/tech that's too subtle or too contemporary might make the difference between an HM, and a rejection, or between a Semi and an HM, or a Finalist vs. a Semi.

REMINDER REMINDER: Best homework in the world, for you as entrants, is to read recent copies of the anthology. Every copy contains at least 12 good examples of what it takes to win. Not every story will suit your tastes. Ignore placement -- who won what. Pay attention to the stories you *DO* like, and let them rumble around in your unconscious when you write your entries. Try to figure out what made a certain winning story work for you, and apply that to your next work.

Best of luck, everybody! Q2 winners have been announced! If you haven't gotten anything in for Q4, now is the ideal time to get cranking. Deadline is September 30, 2011.

[This message has been edited by Brad R Torgersen (edited July 29, 2011).]

[This message has been edited by Brad R Torgersen (edited July 29, 2011).]
 

Thanks, Kathleen.
 

I second Brad's reminder. Lots of good discussion going on over there about the contest, writing and the business of writing. All important topics for the upwardly mobile.

Plus, there's a cartoon with volcanoes and we sacrificed Kenny to it. How awesome is that? ;p

Tom
 

>< crickets ><

[This message has been edited by History (edited July 30, 2011).]
 

Wish I could get sign on the WotF boards. Even though I'm probably spending too much time here and that would be one more place to spend time.

I tried to sign up over a year ago. But even though they said I should get a conformation e-mail I never did. Sent a note and they sent the right E-mail but the site wouldn't take my password and/or screen name. Tried to reregister but it said I was I was in the system. Sent an E-mail, one tech person said they couldn't find me in the system. Tried registering two other screen names and passwords with same result. Months later they changed their forum, I think to another company, but same results. I have the same trouble with the forum over at Jim Butcher's web site, which looks like the same type as WotF's. I'm have been on many web sites' forums but this one certain type of forum doesn't like my computer.
 

Tom
 

It was different when I tried not that long ago.

And now you have to be knowledgeable of the anthology to get in.
 

I also wiped out ALL user accounts with zero posts, so if you once signed up and had issues or never were confirmed when Peter was still running the forum -- or, as Tom notes, during the interim between Peter and me -- do please give it another go.

Anyone still having issues is, of course, advised to contact me directly. So I can see what's happening.

brad(dot)r(dot)torgersen(at)comcast(dot)net
 

[This message has been edited by LDWriter2 (edited August 02, 2011).]
 

http://forum.writersofthefuture.com/
 

Here are the groups as they currently sit:

Group1:
Writer Dan
Meredith
francisbruno
wirelesslibrarian

Group2:
Axeminister
Owasm
Coralm
mbwood

Group3:
Wonderbus
Crank
Brendan
History (Dr. Bob)

Group4:
LDWriter2
thomaskcarpenter
Utahute72
Tiergan

First-round crits were within the group. Second-round crits will be handled between groups.

If you're in Group 1, send your story to Group 2.

If you're in Group 2, send your story to Group 3.

If you're in Group 3, send your story to Group 4.

If you're in Group 4, send your story to Group 1.

Or, if you're like me, GET BACK TO WRITING!!!

Sorry - I didn't get on the ball on time this quarter. If anyone wants an extra critique and wants to exchange, I have a 4300 wd SF story that I've written and gone through revisions with.

If interested, send me an email with your story and I'll reply with a copy of mine.
 

I get a Dr. Bob crit. I'm placing this quarter for sure.

Axe
 

Updated groups for second round crits:

Group1:
WriterDan
Meredith
francisbruno
wirelesslibrarian
Wordcaster

Group2:
Axeminister
Owasm
Coralm
mbwood

Group3:
Wonderbus
Crank
Brendan
History

Group4:
LDWriter2
thomaskcarpenter
Utahute72
Tiergan

Again:

If you're in Group 1, send your story to Group 2.

If you're in Group 2, send your story to Group 3.

If you're in Group 3, send your story to Group 4.

If you're in Group 4, send your story to Group 1.
 

My email is in my profile for others to send their ms.
 

The first round was to your own group. Wordcastor is arriving so late, WriterDan is suggesting that he join in for the second round. At least, I think that is what he is meaning.
 

I'm glad the due date is Sunday, I'm only a quarter of the way done revising my story. His is early, mine might be a bit late.

The way I'm changing things: taking parts of scenes out, moving descriptions, tightening sentences, adding a sentence or two, etc, I almost want my original group to reread it to see if they think it's improved.

Shipped it early in case someone finishes their WIP and has time to get ahead of the game.

Sorry for the late intrusion; I'll do my best to provide valuable critiques.
 

Looking forward to reading some good stories this time around.
 

I've fallen behind due to an unscheduled visit to hospital (4 days) for some relatively minor (but uncomfortable) surgery. I've got stuff to catch up on and then will get back on critting.

Remember the first rule of writing... Write!
MBW

[This message has been edited by mbwood (edited August 05, 2011).]
 

I've forwarded my revision to Group 4. Thanks to thomaskcarpenter for his quick review. If the rest of you (LDWriter, Utahute72, and Tiergan) did not receive the story, or require it in a different format, please let me know.

Group 2, Round 2. I received, critiqued, and returned your story mbwood. Please inform me if you did not receive it.
(And don't hate me. I tend to be very objective and clinical, some have muttered 'savage', with my critiques. Axeminster, I look forward to your story. "oohahh hahhahahah" "Mine is an evil laugh"). My vacation ends today and now I must pay by working 14 days straight with six nights of call. I am also away the last week of the month and will be unable to critique then, so I humbly beg your stories as soon as possible if we are to keep to Writer Dan's deadline.

Respectfully,
Dr. Bob

All in group 1, I am running behind on my rewrite, but should have it out by end of week.

Group 3, please let me know if you didn't receive.

Axe
 

Respectfully,
Dr. Bob
 

As he knows, I received Dr. Bob's and I have sent out my story to group One.
 

I've been running hard to get caught up and have completed crits on Wireless Librarian; Wordcaster; Francisbruno;& Meredith.

I haven't received anything from WriterDan yet...

I hope I haven't delayed anybody with my crits.
MBW
 

Seems like I recall one but I can't find it if someone did. It would have been before his.
 

Group 4 will be getting my story within the next day or so.

From my group (3):
I've returned Dr. Bob's story.

I've not received anyone else's story. Not bashing, 'cuz I've not sent you mine, either. Conisdering we're now getting stories from Group 2...if you would still like to critique mine, let me know, and I'll send it to you when I send it to Group 4.

Group 2:
I'm currently reading mbwood's story, and should have it back to him later tonight.

I've also received stories from Axeminister and Owasm. You're in the queue.

S!
S!

 

Dr. Bob you seem to be one of the writer's I wish I could copy... hardly any nitpicks... how you guys find them all is beyond me. There may be a couple I missed while reading the story but I suspect very few... of course you may not produce that many.

So far his seems to be the only story I have, well as of two to three hours ago that is. I will be checking that e-mail address again in a few minutes. But you may have to wait 'till Monday, I'm going out of town Friday night, be back Sunday. Nice anniversary trip to Yosemite.

I sent it tonight.

[This message has been edited by LDWriter2 (edited August 11, 2011).]
 

Group 3: Wonderbus, Brendan: I'm still available. If either of you have finished your story, and would like an extra pair of eyes and an extra opinion, send it my way. If you would still like to read my story, let me know that as well.

Now...onto critting the rest of the Group 2 stories. I seem to have not received one...

S!
S!

 

are any members of this group going to the SF WorldCon at Reno, NV this week?

I will be there, and I'd like to meet fellow fans who belong to this group.

All the best,

MBW
 

Still working on mine. As it has evolved, I've realised I need a different ending. Work is very busy at the moment.

You can still send yours here if you want, Crank, or hold out until your next round of revision.

I've had 3 from group (1 yet to critique, OWASMs)

Brendan
 

I will take you ou on that offer and send it to you after I make revisions based on Group 4's feedback. It will be a few weeks; as I told a few others, I am taking a small vacation from my WotF story.

Send yours whenever you feel it's ready.

S!
S!
 

My proposed Q4 entry is still a wopping 16,814 words--but now within submission requirements, and "tighter" if not svelte.

My thanks to everyone for their critiques:
--LDWriter and Tomcarpenter for their positive words,
--Utahute72, Tiergan, and Crank for their editorial wisdom,
--and special thanks to Wonderbus and Nick Tchan for their detailed suggested line edits and valuable lessons in the craft.

Respectfully,
Dr. Bob
 

CoralM
Crank
Wonderbus

At this point, unless you guys have already started reading, I'd just as soon send an update to you. (Already spoke to Crank about this.) Should be by Wednesday.

I owe:
Meredith
Wonderbus (His WCE entry, not WotF)

I need:
CoralM (from round 1)
WriterDan (from 2Q 2010)

Axe
 

Just wanted to throw an additional heads up your way, despite the fact that I've already mentioned something in the opening discussion post of this thread. 17k words is the "official" limit for WotF story entries, but the more realistic one, and the one that Kathy really runs by, is 68 pages of properly formatted manuscript (17k words divided by 250 words/page = approx 68 pages). She's said that if the story is really good, and the manuscript is an additional page or two, she'll probably let it slide, but otherwise it'll get rejected. I've noticed in my writing that 68 pages typically comes WAY earlier than 17k words. So, I thought I'd make sure that you knew about this unofficial limit for WotF, as your stated word-total above is so close to the word-limit. Regardless, best of luck.
 

I admit it is a bit perplexing.

First, I've discovered that word count varies with the choice of word processing program. Assuming Microsoft Word is the likely industry standard, I've downloaded the newest MSWord 2010 software.

My word count (16,800) divided by 250 words per page would suggest a manuscript length of 67 pages.

However, with standard manuscript format (1 inch margins all around, double-spacing, and 12 point font), the choice of font varies the average word count per page and, therefore, the manuscript length:

* Times New Roman (my "default"): 58 pages.
* New Courier: 76 pages.

I don't know how Ms Wentworth will make her determination.

I've been told there are many strikes against this story, including its length and the current day setting. Either may result in its automatic rejection. I hope not.

However, I am pleased those who've read it have found it entertaining, the writing quality adequate, and the subject matter (not merely the writing) worthy of follow-up discussion by email. I enjoyed participating in this quarter's Hatrack WOTF Groups, even if Ms Wentworth tosses it back to me unread.

With apologies to Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.: "So it goes."

Respectfully,
Dr. Bob

But is Times Roman okay for them with paper manuscripts?

But too bad a modern day setting would mean an auto dismissal. There's good writing and stories in that time setting... including yours Dr. Bob.

Glad you've had a good experience here anyhow, Dr. Bob. Best of luck, and hope to see you around again.
 

The WOTF Word Count limit using New Courier 12pt font, double-spacing, and 1 inch margins would be 15,000 words, by my calculation.

Respectfully,
Dr. Bob

[This message has been edited by History (edited August 17, 2011).]
 

But I always use plain Courier.

I was interrupted before I could say that if one font was that important, it seems like they should say something. Especially since a lot of us use plain Courier- unless otherwise stated- and I know a couple of writers who always use Times New Roman-unless otherwise stated- because they like it and it's usually okay to use.

[This message has been edited by LDWriter2 (edited August 18, 2011).]
 

quote:

---

How do I tell if my story is within the acceptable word count limit?
A good rule of thumb is that when a page is properly formatted (double-spaced lines, 1 inch margins, 12 point font) each page will contain approximately 250 words. This would make a 17,000 word story to be about 65 to 68 pages in length.

---

Bear in mind the term "properly formatted", which suggests the standards of professional publication are upheld by the contest. This method of determining word count has been around since before computers existed, and is an indication of required page space (which is more important than the actual number of words when planning the layout of a book or magazine). Dialog often produces fewer words for the same amount of page space, and this method captures that and gives an equivalent "word count" for the unused space at the end of paragraphs. Consequently, the use of a lot of dialog will result in fewer words to reach the "word count" limit. (Or, visa versa, you will receive more pay per word if you sell stories with dialog.)
 

Hmm, this thread seems to have gone quiet. I think I only received two stories for the second round. And only two crits back for my story... need to double check that though.

Anyone send theirs in yet? I gotta get to work on my final revision this week.

And it sounds like Dr. Bob is out this quarter and that's too bad, he may have had one of the better written stories. Someone should want it though. And next quarter he can do a shorter better written story.
 

The story is 16,800 words and 58 pages as submitted using 1 inch margins and 12 pt Times New Roman font. The choice of font issue remains unclear.

However, long stories tend not to be WOTF winners, I am told, so your prediction may still be correct. Anyway, it is submitted and I'll have to wait and see what Ms Wentworth decides.

As for writing something shorter next quarter...
"Eh. He don't know me too well."
--Bugs Bunny, Warner Brothers

Respectfully,
Dr. Bob
 

I'm still not done with my story. Shock and awe, I know. I also haven't received anything for round two crits. I seem to be on the guilty end of both fronts this quarter. Deadline to finish my dissertation is this month though. So, hoping for some good progress on all fronts in the next few weeks. Hope everyone is doing well. And if not, consider this another kick in the backside. Next quarter's crit group goes up next week!
 

Now to let it sit for awhile and to think of a better title.
 

Crank, I haven't seen yours yet, can you resend.
 

I still owe Meredith hers, and of course anyone who sends to me from my group or group 1.

Axe
 

er, it seems that you're still writing your piece and time is ticking on. I will crit when you get done, however, you still have to revise after critting. Your schedule.

Hello, Wonderbus -

I still haven't received a crit from you. Currently, my story version has incorporated many of the suggestions from the critters in Group 3 (thank you Crank, Brendan and History for your thoughtful comments), which may mean your crit may not mean a lot. The choice is up to you.

Remember the first rule of writing... Write!

WorldCon at Reno was full of valuable panels and lots of fun.
 

Thanx to LDWriter2, Thomaskcarpenter, and Utahute72 for your thoughts, and especially for continuing the dialog and fielding some of my follow-up questions.

I've already arranged to send my second draft to Brendan and Tiergan.

History / Dr. Bob...it's been a while since we talked...do you still have time to critique my story?

S!
S!

 

Dr. Bob I'm glad you submitted anyway. I believe your story at least worthy of consideration.

I don't know how KDW (Or is it kdw, I got a little confused with the last post about that) would react to it. But I know most other pro editors say they buy stories all the time, that do not fit the usual, because of the writing. This is a contest with evidently with certain types of story in mind of the editors. Of course that means your writing would have to be that much better so we shall see.

Meanwhile, I have still only received two stories to crit. And I'm working on the last revision of mine. Almost half way done with that.
But Egads I'm going to have to start double checking the then-s and than-s. I should have changed over half of them. I might still miss a few but I know the difference between the two words most of the time. Some of the wrong verb tenses I got wrong but others I should have seen. Then there are the words that somehow ended up in it that I didn't type. Somehow my spell checker most have put in the wrong word and somehow I let it go.

Go ahead and send it.

I'm on call the next two nights, then quickly packing for a trip to California (to get away from the danger of east coast America hurricanes and earthquakes ). I'll critique it during flight if not before, length permitting.

Respectfully,
Dr. Bob
 

I just submitted my story to WotF Contest.

Wonderbus, don't bother with critting my piece - it won't help anymore.

I'd like to thank Mrmeadors, Coralm, Axeminister, Owasm, Brendan, History and Crank for their thoughtful comments, which undoubtedly improved my story. They provided the 'fresh set of eyes' which saw mistakes to which I was blind - THANK YOU!

MBW

As always, remember the first rule of writing... Write!
 

I changed quite a few things and not only those things suggested. I got rid of a few was-s, shortened a few sentences and made an info dump smaller. Not as short as one person suggested but I found that harder to do than I thought. Plus I redid a few other sentences. Made them sound a bit more mature... or so I hope. I ended up adding about ninety words even though I deleted a few too.
 

Two things there. August is the eighth month. For some unknown reason I keep thinking it's the ninth month. Did someone switch the months around sometime in the Eighties? Gotta keep reminding myself it follows the seventh month.

And the imposed deadline for this group is the last day of this month. Come to think of it that could be to give the late people some wiggle room.

I could send it Sunday.

Okay, sending my story. or trying to anyway.

I found one last critique, thought there was one more and I found it by accident.

So hopefully it is improved.
 

1) Someone suggested that I do it that way;

2) those that can stick to the up-shifted timeline get their stories in earlier than the deadline and avoid the possibility of being part of the "crap-I-have-to-read-faster-because-my-deadline-is-coming-up" feeling that KDW might or might not get at the end of each quarter;

3) slackers like Utahute72...erm...slackers like Utahute72 and me.

Speaking of...I finished my second scene last night. Only three more to go. lol.

[This message has been edited by WriterDan (edited August 30, 2011).]
 

Okay, my story is ready to go. I finished the one last crit, thanks Utahute72, and double checked certain words, spell checked it one last time. I made a few changes on my own, hopefully making certain sentences sound more pro. To me they do but I have no idea if editors and judges would.

I'll send it later tonight, hopefully with the On The Premises entry also. That one should take just a few minutes to revise one last time. And I better not get them mixed up; the WotF one is way too long for OTP, plus it's not the right premise, and from what some have stated the OTP story is way to short for WotF even though other than that it might work.

I just sent in my story for Q4. Now on to '12 Q1. But first a stop on my novel. That is my unfinished novel, I haven't touched it in a month at least. And another stop on revising chapter two of a finished novel. Not to mention about half a dozen mini stories--less than 500 words. A mini contest with Onthepremises.com got my stuck on Shoooort stories. And also not to mention at least three crits in the next day or two.

Anyway, I looked over the WotF website hoping I could get a copy of their icon. I would love a wallpaper version. And I checked out some of their illustrations. Niiice. And again I say one reason-besides it being neat, prestige, the accomplishment of a goal, what it would mean about my writing, I would love to win because I would love to have an illustration with my story. That alone would make it worth entering.

Another Anyway. Since my local Barnes and Noble doesn't sell WotF anthologies, even though I'm sure I can order it, I thought about buying the E version. If I have to order it anyway--and my local Walmart isn't one that will be carrying it-- I just as well get it on my Nook. It's only $4 that way.
 

http://forum.writersofthefuture.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1016
 

quote:

---

And again I say one reason-besides it being neat, prestige, the accomplishment of a goal, what it would mean about my writing, I would love to win because I would love to have an illustration with my story. That alone would make it worth entering.

---

Hi LDWriter2,

If you haven't already, you should check out Meghan O'Muriel's full colour illustration on the Amazon page for Writers of the Future 27. She uploaded the colour version of her illustration for Patrick O'Sullivan's story and it's absolutely stunning.

Seeing my story illustrated is one of things I'm most looking forward to, especially if it turns out anything like Meghan's drawing.

Regards,

Nick

 

Axe
 

Anyway, I think it's the best one shown- there are four-- even if it was black and white. That's the type of illustration I would love for a story of mine.

But studying the pic I found something not seen at first. And I would love to write my own story based on that pic.

I need another story about writing, anyway.
 

S!
S!

 

Maybe I should wait 'till after the judging But I want to say one thing about my story. It's the third one set in the same setting. One is set before the event in this one while the other one may or may not be before the event, I haven't decided. It contains one character from the WotF story. Whatever happens with WotF, I would like to write more tales with the same characters.

One is ready to send out but I seem to have forgotten to revise the other story.

[This message has been edited by LDWriter2 (edited September 04, 2011).]
 

One of the most nerving racking parts about the upcoming workshop (well, apart from the 24 hour story) is that fact that all the authors are shown all the illustrations at once and then you have to guess which one was drawn for your story.

In most cases, it should be pretty straightforward, but as far as I know the illustrators don’t have any restrictions on what they draw apart from practical publication concerns (i.e. how the picture will look in a mass-produced paperback). They might be inspired by an abstract concept contained within the story or they might decide to illustrate a literal scene. It’s up to them. I’d choose to illustrate my story literally, but I can only draw stick figures.

There are lots of nice little bonuses associated with winning, but having your story illustrated (and I believe you receive a framed print of your illustration) is right up there.

Nick

 

However, that story blows what I usually say about First sentences out of the water. It's long and kinda complicated. I need to see how the rest of the stories start.
 

Turns out, it's not ready.

This relegates me to spectator for this quarter.

I write quickly - but I edit s l o w l y.

Axe
 

If I recall correctly WotF isn't the only one to illustrate stories. Asimov's does the lead story I think and maybe one other. And seems like there are one or two others that do the same. Beneath Ceaseless Skies maybe?

And I'm having the same problem getting in them all.

Besides doing them all WotF is a special case.
 

If not, I'll send you an invite.

Axe
 

In the meantime, I might have a go at a new story for the start of the 20123 season.

S!
S!

 

S!
S!

 

I'm trying to keep the spoilers down here in case someone reads this who hasn't read 27 but wants to.

I read two stories that had scenes that made me go HUH? One has a guy who comes out of no where and he is never explained. He gets into a police complex and is a crack shot but there are only very basic details about who he is and none on his background. Yet he turns into a major player. And very little on why he does what he does.

The second story has something important that happens that isn't fully explained either. I could have gotten confused or missed something in my reading but I wasn't totally sure who did it and there's no idea of why. It's an important event but it's something of a mystery.
 

I've found in my reading that their top priority for a winning story is originality. Show them something they've never seen.

This isn't to say it doesn't have to have the other characteristics such as being written well, strong characters, etc, but I think some things are given a pass if the idea is fresh.

Now, if the idea is trite and there's flaws, then I just can't explain it.

I'm currently hammering my 4Q entry with a sledge hammer. This is not the proper way to write a story. It require finesse, more like molding clay, but I really want to get this one in so I'm working overtime on it.

The prose is OK. The characters are pretty strong. The MC is much stronger in this re-write. But my idea... Not highly original. I know this, but I'm working it anyway because I love deadlines and I want to improve. However, my expectations are low.

I don't mean to abuse KDW's time, but I'll do whatever it takes to get better. I'm not bringing an A idea, so I'm going to bust my hump to dress this one up into something presentable.

Then, when my A comes along, I'll have the experience to know what to do with it.

Axe
 

But the one that takes place on the moon isn't all that new. I won't say much more about it but the plot, even with a reporter on the moon, isn't that new. Putting it altogether might be what is original.

But that brings up hope for some of us... me at least. Depending on how many they get dealing with buildings coming alive that is. There are some books out there with living buildings but how many warehouses? And just maybe they can overlook a couple of flaws. Maybe. My idea but I still say we shall see.

Hmm, how about a warehouse that's a were-house?
 

Another chance at a hatracker getting in.

And more than likely it's a good story.
 

UPDATE: Joni just called me back and the story is in. Seems like their system is swamped with submission at the moment so it might pay to double check to make sure yours doesn't get lost in the electronic fog if you don't hear anything. They really need to update from that Apple IIE they are using.

[This message has been edited by Utahute72 (edited September 30, 2011).]
 

I wonder whether it's just a surge of last-minute submissions or whether it's a sign of more submissions overall.
 

Or is there one way back up there.
 

Anyway from reading these things I think that is somewhat overstated. I've read some that were both trite and pretty tough to read that won. So I'm back to having no clue what they want. I think if you hit KDW in the right mood it will pass through her and then it's up to the final readers whether or not they like your story.
 

[This message has been edited by wirelesslibrarian (edited October 01, 2011).]
 

The problem and this is for wireless too, as beginners we don't always know how well we did. Sometimes we think we did well and made half a dozen writing mistakes other times we thin we did lousy and that story is picked. I know people where that last has happened. Not with WotF but with another contest and with ordinary sells.

But good for you wireless you're never know how well you actually did without sending it in and it's good practice.
 

What's your name on Google+? The gmail name is thomaskcarpenter (go figure!)

For that matter, anyone else send me a circle request on there if you'd like. I'm also on twitter @thomaskcarpente (no 'r' my name is too long.)

And good luck everyone! I sent my story in a few weeks ago, but I don't have much hope for it. I think the content of the story might be a little too rough for the contests tastes.

And thankfully, Q1 is already done for me. I rewrote the beginning to a story I considered for Q2 and unless I get a flash of inspiration for a different story, I'll be sending that one in. That way I can keep my focus on novels and "starter" stories for publication. I have way too many items on my to-do list these days.

But it's a good problem.

Tom

Thomas K. Carpenter
www.thomaskcarpenter.com

 

Just Dustin Adams as far as I know.
I did a search for you just now. Your name came up in the search drop down, but then Tom Anderson popped up. (The Myspace guy, not Neo)
I clicked on the People tab, figuring that would do it, Michele Edwards popped up.

Can't figure out where she came from in a search for Thomas K Carpenter...

Axe
 

Wordcaster
MbWood
UtahUte72
History
LDWriter2
OSWAM
Meredith
JenniferHicks
Wireless Librarian

While Jennifer wasn't technically part of the group we'll take her anyway. Feel free to add or detract from this list if I missed you or misread your post.
 

Okay, I wasn't part of the group. I didn't even start writing until two weeks ago. Didn't take it seriously until a week before the deadline. Didn't even finish it until 24 hours before last call. Hell, I only gave it one edit.

Winner! For sure!
 

As I put my Q4 submission into a finished folder, I realized THAT I SENT THE WRONG VERSION TO WOTF!!!!! How stupid. I went over that entry time and time again. Rewriting, honing, pulling out the dross and then, I sent an early version. A typo on the LAST SENTENCE!

Woe is me. No one to blame but myself. What a waste.
 

That's pretty yucky, Ken. I'm truly sorry to hear that.

Axe
 

And I received my mass E-mail saying I was definite in maybe a month ago... three weeks maybe. Joni did seem a bit... hmm not cranky but like she felt like she shouldn't have to send it.
 

I'm out.

Its the first "form letter" rejection I've received in returning to writing these two years. I've been spoiled by "personalized" rejections and the two small sales.

The form letter, unfortunately, requires one to guess at the reasons for rejection:
--poor writing?
--poor characterization?
--insufficiently imaginative or poorly conceptualized story?
or
--wrong for the publication?

I would like to believe the last or, perhaps, I think too highly of my story telling skills.

Respectfully,
Dr. Bob
 

But all that changed with that ambush line.

Oh and Dr. Bob you forgot two. All of the above and none of the above. I have the habit of always assuming the worse for a rejection but sometimes it's hard to tell what is in the mind of an editor. Dean Wesley Smith has gone into that a time or two and he has been a pro editor, his wife has been one and he's friends with other pro editors. Everything can be right but a story can still not click with a certain editor.

That is what I have been told but it's hard to get that into my heart, as I said I usually assume the worse.
 

Hmm, so far only one of us have received a rejection? Of course that will probably change in the next few days but a nice start.

Obviously not for Dr. Bob of course. And from my many form rejections I know what he is feeling. I think my first six to ten WotF's entries got form rejections. He will probably do better with fewer forms.
 

KDW has stated she reads maybe 20% of all submissions all teh way through. She has stated that if your story doesn't have a clear speculative element in the first paragraph it is unlikely it will do well. I haven't read your submission, but I am betting this is the reason why you received a very quick rejection.

This doesn't mean your story is unworthy, sucks, or that your a bad writer. As a person who has read a couple of your stories, I can assure you your writing is solid. Rejection means nothing. I will use myself as a case in point.

I am about 50/50 on rejection/HM or better for my submissions. My rejects have done as well as my HM's. I have published two rejected works and have one that is currently on an editors short list for a possible publication.

I should note that I have received a Silver HM. That, all my HM's, and all my rejections have yet to illicit a single word worth of commentary from KDW. Joni has sent a personal note or two about my entries (you should see the emails I sent her to get her to acknowledge that I exist) but nary a word from KDW (even bribery fails).

I can safely say as a person who has read more than one of works, that you are a solid writer. Keep at it. Every hatrack member (I think) who has participated in the contest has received a straight out reject, even the ones who eventually won.
 

As I said, until now I have been spoiled by my luck in rejections.
[Hmm. That doesn't sound quite right. :?]

I surmise you are correct that the opening few lines of my urban fantasy stories, despite being hooks, may not be sufficiently "speculative" for WOTF. In this case (now that I'm out, I can share):

“I don’t do kidnapping cases,” I told Ace.
“It’s a 4000 year old dead kid,” she said.
I set the phone on speaker. “Alright, tell me more.” I put on my sport coat.
“You’ve heard of King Tut?”
“You’re kidding.”
“Yeah. It’s not him. It’s another prince of Egypt.

Speculative fiction? Perhaps not. Could be a just a commonplace detective story. The preternatural and occult basis of the story evolves in subsequent pages.

As my recently completed story is in the same genre (and, come to think of it, a walking dead and devil tale instead of the above's cursed mummies and ancient gods), I'll merely have to come up with something more in line with traditionally WOTF winning "speculative" mostly futuristic sf entries.

And see if I can make it short enough to be "cool".

Respectfully,
Dr. Bob
 

quote:

---

As I said, until now I have been spoiled by my luck in rejections.
[Hmm. That doesn't sound quite right. :?]

---

But there's a reason that doesn't sound right. It's not luck but skill. Well, maybe a touch of luck but your skill plays an important part.
 

Just having a little fun. Totally not serious.

Axe
 

As you probably know, I’ve been a little out of the loop with work over these past few weeks. Having read your submission, I am surprised that it got a rejection; I figured it for a solid HM at the least and possibly better. As Snapper and others have said, you have solid writing skills with a nice eye for telling detail. You can write and there’s no question about that. I didn’t think the type of story you were trying to tell was particularly suitable for WOTF and I thought it had a novel’s pacing, but I thought it was very well written.

WOTF is simply a market with a very good prize. Like any other market, the editor’s decision (in this case, the initial judge) is influenced, both consciously and unconsciously, by personal taste, market fit and practical parameters. Writing a short story for WOTF is a different beast to writing a novel for a cross-over fantasy/thriller market. While there is a great deal of cross-over between genres and shorts/novels, the skills needed for each sub-category are subtly different. Part of what I’ve learned from WOTF is the need for versatility and the role of luck. You never know what kind of writing you’ll need to do to make a career. Some people succeed in WOTF by writing specifically writing for the contest, others just send in anything they have to hand.

Like any wannabe writer, we all have to find the Venn diagram common ground between what the editors want, what we want to write and what readers want. Very few people (if any) are blessed of having the perfect match between what they want to write and what editors/readers want to see. There is almost always some degree of compromise. You might love Unicorns, but the unicorn market is dead, so you compromise by telling your kind of stories using My Little Ponies instead…as long as you keep your integrity by writing the truth of what you write, the little details don’t count so much.

Personally, I’d recommend WOTF as a perfect opportunity to experiment in what you’re writing, trying to fit the contest parameters. Even if it doesn’t feel right to try a science fiction cyberpunk story, it improves you as a writer and the beauty of WOTF is that it costs you nothing to enter and the benefits are potentially huge.

To be honest, your track record in receiving personalized rejections and sales actually puts mine to shame. Stick with this long enough and you’ll be able to able to smell the impersonal form rejection before you open the envelope/inbox.

Regards,

 

LD: Thanks for the vote of confidence (I still admire your output. Where Do you find the time?)

Axe(Dustin): Your 'revision' gave me a great laugh. Thank you

Nick: Per usual, very sage insights and comments (and a nice summary of what you shared with me on my recently completed tale). Writing will never be a "career" for me, but it is a pleasure; and I've come to appreciate I do like feedback on what I write. Thus, at some level, I recognize I am looking for readers.

As these past few posts indicate, I agree that the WOTF contest is the same as other markets; that is, one would not submit a paranormal romance to ANALOG nor sword&sorcery to ASIMOV'S. My impression, rightly or wrongly (based on my subsequent reading of WOTF anthologies) is that hard sf and/or something uniquely innovative (like your own winning story) is best. I do have an "experiment" for a better WOTF contender in mind. If I can pull it off (and keep it short), and if I have time. I'm a bit in and out of sorts with work and family myself right now (just finished editing my mother-in-law's Holocaust survival story, and beginning the search for a publisher, or perhaps merely self-publishing it so she can have it sooner--she is 85, after all).

I hope your recent circumstance have settled down to your satisfaction; and I hope you will have more opportunity to write. You know how much I enjoy your work.

Respectfully,
Dr. Bob

[This message has been edited by History (edited October 24, 2011).]