Hatrack River Writers Workshop: Winter of Humanity

This is topic Winter of Humanity in forum Hatrack Writers - Publications & Reviews at Hatrack River Writers Workshop.

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Posted by Hookt_Un_Fonix (Member # 4783) on :

Well I just signed the publishers agreement on my first novel ever. I am awaiting the ISBN and estimated release date. I will post that info as soon as I get it. I wanted to say thanks you everyone on here that helped me get this manuscript in shape, and worthy of publishing.

Posted by debhoag (Member # 5493) on :

Congratulations. What is the title of your book? What genre? Tell please! (And brag a little!) how long have you been working on this? did you get an agent first?

Posted by Hookt_Un_Fonix (Member # 4783) on :

The title is Winter of Humanity by me, Jesse Walter. It is a military sci fi novel based on the near future. It is written mainly in a first person memoir format. The MC is telling his story and, explaining his role in (future) history. It starts with him growing up in a small town in a post fuel war North America, and his eventual rise to power in a newly emerging American Emirate. Its a soft Sci Fi, with explanations of the modern military tech. It does favor more the soldier side of the story though, offering what I think is a good insight into the mind of a career soldier. It is more about ambition, duty, and the effects on the human conscience. I would like to think as the author that the story of a modern Sparta comes through on the pages. Not the 300 sacrifice, but more of the mentality required to have a dedication to a career of war fare.

On the other note, I did not get an agent. I just submitted to every publisher I could find, and I received three offers. I picked the one that offered me more control and the larger advance of course. In regards to how long I was writing this book, I started about July of last year.

Posted by Robert Nowall (Member # 2764) on :

Who's the publisher?

Posted by Hookt_Un_Fonix (Member # 4783) on :

I went with Publish America. I have heard a few things about them good and bad, but the contract seemed fair, especially for a first time author. maybe the next one can be with Tor or Baen, once I prove myself.

Posted by mikemunsil (Member # 2109) on :

Congrats!

Posted by InarticulateBabbler (Member # 4849) on :

Congratulations!!!

Posted by Hookt_Un_Fonix (Member # 4783) on :

I normally don't like to post up and brag about how skilled and great I am (People should already know this). The reason I am doing this here on hatrack, is because there are a handful of people that got me going in the right direction, and helped this first book I ever wrote take shape.

If it wasn't for them I don't think it woudl have had a chance at seeing print. Debhoag, and Survivor to name a few. OSC of course for opening these forums. Man the list could go on and on, even though it was me slaving to get this damn story out of my head, it was these wonderful people that not only helped it take shape, but also make sense.

I was going to resend the first 13 to Deb and let he take a look, because she was the one that really gave me great guidance on how they should look. I really do think those are what drew in the publisher. I am not even sure if they actually read the whole story, lol. If they did they might not have offered to publish.

So for those of you looking to work and get your work in print, use this resource and listen to the positive people. They will help you and guide you and make your work stronger. Thank you Hatrack! Thank you Hatrackers! Thank you OSC!

Now make sure to buy my book as soon as its out and make me crazy rich so I can just travel country and scribble my name in book after book! I want to be sitting at comic-con in San Diego talking to a bunch of people with soap allergies getting ideas for the next installment.

Posted by DebbieKW (Member # 5058) on :

Um, who were the other two publishers that made an offer besides Publish America? I really, really hate to burst your high, but trying to sell your next books to Tor or Baen by bragging that you were published by Publish America isn't exactly going to promote your cause... Publish America isn't exactly known for high standards in what they accept.

If your main goal is just to see a book of yours in print, then this may be the way to go. If you want your first published book to be a step on the way to becoming a professional, paid author by a big-name press, I'd suggest looking through the http://www.sfwa.org/beware/ lists just to make sure that it's a good publisher before you sign the contracts. For more information on Publish America for those considering it: http://www.ripoffreport.com/reports/0/104/ripoff0104646.htm and http://www.freewebs.com/truthaboutpa/faqs.htm

Out of curiosity, how much of an advance were you offered? I was under the impression that they didn't give one worth mentioning (e.g. $1).

[This message has been edited by DebbieKW (edited July 17, 2007).]

Posted by Hookt_Un_Fonix (Member # 4783) on :

I have heard a bit about Publish America, and I do understand that there standards are obviously not as high as Tor or Baen. I have read a lot of things about them on the internet, and I have received reports from the BBB and attorney generals office. I have to admit the advance was not much, but it was a bit more then a dollar. What I saw from the majority of complaints is the same I see from a lot of other publishers out there. Most of the time the blame was not fully theirs. It really seems to me that a large number of writers feel that their work is done as soon as the book makes it to print. Publish America makes no illusions about their lack of desire to promote books more then they do.

I think it is up to us as writers to get the word out about our work if we choose to. I like the percentage they are offering me, I like the fact that I will be keeping 100% of the electronic and movie rights. They will get a percentage of the proceeds if I do decide to sell the movie rights, but the e rights are all mine.

I went into talking with them with a jaded eye, and an attorney of my own. Everything seemed to be on the up and up, and exactly what I feel I need to get this book out there, at no cost to me, other then the marketing.

I also figured this is the first work and if I prove myself to have a viable and strong voice I can build from there. I am sure that once I can get some titles under my name and on a resume I can go back with future titles and re market the old once the agreement expires.

The other publishers that responded to my offer were smaller companies that had limited abilities, one of them did offer a very fair deal, but I was not to sure about their ability as it was. They are a locally based company here in Denver. Flying Pen Press seems to have a good idea, just no track record yet to see were they could go.

The third option turned out to be a vanity press, and I was not aware until I received their material in the mail. Being new at the game I was not completely aware of the signs to look out for. With that in mind I think I should be more then happy to deal with Publish America, and I will keep you posted on how it turns out. Besides the contract they have is not iron clad, and does allow for you to escape if you know were to look.

I personally wanted something that gave me a large amount of control of my work. I wanted a publisher that woudl provide books, an ISBN, some market help and ability for people to order my book. I need the network they have, and I needed the flexibility and control to market my book. Understand that maybe writing for living can be attained, but as of right now it is a hobby and intended to be a learning journey.

I have read the swfa report on Publish America, as well as the reports on rippoffreport, and predators and editors. Form what I seen, the royalty issues were resolved by legal channels and have been adhered to. As the marketing complaints, I truly think this is people looking for a hand out, and wanting someone else to be doing the work they should be doing getting the word out about what they have done.

If my work has any merit, and I sell enough of it, even through Publish America, then I am sure a larger more established house will notice. In due time I will get it done, and if I don't it hurt nobody. In the mean time I will continue to write and dream, and enjoy this wonderful hobby, and see what I can do with it.

I am also so going to enjoy seeing a book on the shelf of my coffee shop, with my name on the cover. And Publish America on the cover or not, I will smile from ear to ear when ever somebody lets me know what they thought of it, regardless if it was good or bad. The fact they read it will make me happy, and let me know it was done for a purpose.

Posted by RMatthewWare (Member # 4831) on :

Good job.

Posted by DebbieKW (Member # 5058) on :

If that's all you want (your book on the shelf of your coffee shop and a few friends/customers to read it) then you'll probably be happy with Publish America. It's certainly a better way to achieve that dream than paying a vanity press.

I apparently mistook one of your comments to mean that you believed Publish America was a good-reputation publisher through which you would sell thousands of copies of your book [probably at a profit] and that, in turn, would get you noticed by Tor and Baen.

However, my continued warning is that just saying "I have these books published by Publish America" in your cover letter to Tor or Baen isn't going to impress them. This won't "build your resume" unless you can prove your book is a very good seller. Selling your book will take a lot of time and money on your part. If you want to be published someday by Tor or Baen, I'd recommend that you spend that time and money on becoming an even better writer. Then your work will sale itself.

There, I've warned you. I do sincerely hope your experience with Publish America is great. It certainly sounds like you did your research on them and know what you're getting into.

Posted by Hookt_Un_Fonix (Member # 4783) on :

Yeah I have to admit as far as business's go I am not the impressed with there model. But it does beat self publishing and vanity press. I will market the book my own way, and I will be watching them like a hawk on royalty issues. It just seemed the best way to get my book out there, with me in control. Of course I will do my best to sell as much as I can but I will do it through me, not through them, so the profits do not go to expanding their business.

In the mean time I get my book in print at no cost to me, and I can work on my exposure for future works. This being the first thing I have every written outside of school many years ago. So it might help with my creditability.

I have not yet mailed the contract back to them though, and I still have a few days before I am 100% locked in, so who knows. If I hear something better between now and then I will most likely go with that.

Posted by Silver3 (Member # 2174) on :

If you're absolutely set on this (personally, I wouldn't choose Publish America, for the reasons others have outlined above), I'd suggest taking a very careful look at that contract--there's apparently a clause that "locks" you into publishing with PA for 7 years (they may have removed it since then). If you want to market an ulterior novel, that's going to be a major roadblock.

Posted by DebbieKW (Member # 5058) on :

*blink* You haven't sent the contract back yet? Then I will make one last point on the economics of the thing. If you're only intending to buy one or two books for yourself and leave it at that, then this is probably a decent way to get a printed, bound book with your name on it (as long as you're not stuck with selling future books to them). However, if you intend to try to sell mass numbers of these books, keep in mind the follow things. First, most trade paperback books sell for about $15. An easy way to determine if an Amazon book is self-published, vanity-press published, or published by places like Publish America is that the books sell for $20 with no or very, very little discount. This high price alone discourages buyers. When this method of publishing first started becoming common, I bit the bullet and bought a few self-published book despite the price not realizing what they were. These books were long, so I thought that was the reason for the high price. Instead, the books needing massive cutting, it was obvious why no 'real' publisher had taken the book in terms of writing and plot, and the editing was horrible. I never buy self-published books (including vanity presses and the like in that term) anymore. I think that people are beginning to wise up about these books, so it'll be even harder to sell them now.

Keep in mind that the average sells for most self-published books is 75 books total. That's not enough to impress major publishers to buy your future work. Is it enough to make money off your book?

Okay, to sell those 75 books, you go to all your friends, family, work buddies, customers, whatever, and beg them to buy your overpriced book. The only real place that they can get it from is you--or, if you're lucky, the local bookstore or Amazon.com. Will they take the trouble since it's out of the way? Let's say the do, and you get those 75 sales. I've heard that PublishAmerica authors get royalties on the net price of the book instead of the gross retail price of the book. If this is still true, then, if Publish America makes a profit of $5 off of each book sold [I don't actually know the numbers, but this seems reasonable from what little I know of the market], you get only a percent of that $5 (say $1 each for a 20% royalty). That means that you are looking at making $75 royalties. Since you didn't tell me, let's assume your adance was $75 and these royalities went to pay out that advance. In any case, let's say all went well and you've earned $75. Heck, it's money--let's celebrate! Still, is it enough to pay you for the many hours that you put into selling the book?

On the other hand, let's take a look at Publish America. They would make a $300 profit (that is, money made after the costs to them is paid off) from of your book in this scenario. So you're earning them money every time you sell a book. They're getting very cheap labor from people who never did the math until it's all said and done. It's little wonder authors get mad when they realize they are doing all the real work (writing, marketing), but Publish America is raking in the real profit.

Yes, it's true that you have to market your book even if you're published with a 'real' publisher, especially if you're with a small press. But your effort is earning you a much higher return than in the above scenario.

This is why I said that it might be better to spend that marketing time improving your writing instead. If your real goal in writing is to simply see you name in print, then marketing a Publish America book may be where you decide to put your effort, anyway. If you know all this and still want to go with Publish America, then go ahead. At least you now have an idea of what you're getting into. Good luck.

[This message has been edited by DebbieKW (edited July 19, 2007).]

Posted by Hookt_Un_Fonix (Member # 4783) on :

Well I am reading their contract a bit more through now, and I do not see were they lock YOU in for seven years, but they do lock in your work they publish for seven years. I am seriously considering not mailing back the contract though. I am looking at it all signed, but I have yet to hear one good word about them, and so many people can't be this wrong.

So now I am leaning more heavily on the other offers I received from much smaller houses. Either way this book is going to print. I received two more offers over the weekend that made me real happy I haven't sent the paperwork back to PA.

Yes they were the first to reply, and I think the reason is, they want the worked locked down before the author gets another offer. So in the mean time I think I am going to decline there rapid reply, and see what other offers I get. I do want to see my book in print. I do want it to do well. I do not want to pay to have it printed. It is like a child to me though, and if I have to wait a bit to see my child succeed I will.

At least I know they are not the only offer on the table. In the mean time it gives me time to polish the work even more. So once again I have to say thanks to everyone on Hatrack for being the voice of reason.

Posted by Balthasar (Member # 5399) on :

In all of this, just don't forget about spending some time writing your next book.

Posted by Hookt_Un_Fonix (Member # 4783) on :

already a bit into it, and laying out the third. I even have a few shorts that might be ready to go to print soon.

Posted by Kolona (Member # 1438) on :

Good luck, Hookt.

Posted by Lorina Stephens (Member # 6196) on :

Not to take away from your considerable success (and congratulations, btw!), but pity you didn't go with Flying Pen Press, IMO. I've been in correspondence with David Rozansky at FPP, through a Yahoo groups list, and frankly he has demonstrated more integrity and willingness to work with writers than a lot of even large conventional publishers. Very innovative and forward thinking. In this not-so-noble field, I sure wish I had him on my team.
Regards,
Lorina Stephens