Is this a better opening than first one ? A good hook? Good development? Is it something you would continue to read?
“Just let me help you, Abby. You know what I can do for you, and don’t roll your eyes at me.”
I smiled. I loved Ella like a sister, but she was always sticking her nose where it didn’t belong: in my business, all of my business. “No, I don’t want to owe any of those types of people, Ella.” I have known Ella since college. Of course, she could help me. Ella is one of the best fundraising people on the East Coast. Companies, big and small, were constantly recruiting her services. I had watched for years how those people who gave money to Ella’s fundraisers wanted favors of their own. I could buy the extra land myself, and I will. I turned my horse, Hank, toward the corner where my property
[ June 17, 2016, 02:37 PM: Message edited by: Kathleen Dalton Woodbury ]
Posted by extrinsic (Member # 8019) on :
For me, "Shameless's" first version fragment is at six o'clock low on the edge of a target's bull's-eye. I should have noted that in my comments for it. Version two is more like a shot mark at an outer ring, mostly from a more remote narrative distance, more summary and explanation tell, and less show.
Posted by Disgruntled Peony (Member # 10416) on :
I'll get around to a proper critique of both versions of these lines tomorrow when I have the time, but I just wanted to mention this now:
I've found it's better to wait awhile and think on the critiques given on Hatrack instead of immediately trying to jump in with a change to your opening lines, especially when only one person has had the chance to respond. Waiting a few days (I prefer at least a week, myself) between drafts gives time for the initial gut reaction to constructive criticism to subside, and also gives more people time to respond.
I understand that initial urge to fix everything, but the thing to remember is that the final arbiter of what does and doesn't work for your story is, in fact, you. It's important to weigh the advice received against your own perspectives, and time can be an important factor in being able to properly do that.
(Also, just for future reference, you can edit your previous posts. That means you don't really need to make new threads for every version of a story. Personally, I prefer to edit my threads to have each draft listed one after the other at the top of the thread, as well as including the latest draft in a fresh post in that same thread. Saves space and makes it so newcomers and repeat critiquers alike can find the latest version easily.)
Posted by JCKelley (Member # 10522) on :
Disgruntled Peony- Thank you. That helps
Extrinsic- I am sorry I don't understand either of your critiques.
I must say that this group is the harshest I have been in yet.
Posted by Grumpy old guy (Member # 9922) on :
extrinsic takes some getting used to but his 'insights' and observation are invaluable once you learn to decipher the nomenclature. You also need to keep in mind that extrinsic's preferred narrative distance, the distance between the teller of the tale and the reader, is close and immediate.
Sorry if my critique seems harsh, it is meant to be constructive and is simply one person's opinion. I lay no claim to being right all the time--or even some of it.
Overall, a minor improvement in one area, information about what's going on, but a step backward in another, the introduction of character exposition to 'explain' who Ella is, what she does, and the 'types' of people who associate with her. The opening still begins with dialogue that is essentially pointless and meaningless.
While there is a smidgeon more information about what the conversation is about there still seems to be nothing at stake. Abby may not want to be beholden to some unnamed and unknown 'types' of people but that is hardly a dramatic need or want to hang a story from; simply a choice. If her future or life depended on getting hold of the land that would be a dramatic want.
Phil.
Posted by Grumpy old guy (Member # 9922) on :
While wandering around and doing nothing much in particular it occurred to me that my critique may not be all that helpful, both for this version of your fragment and the earlier one. You see I am used to dealing with stories that follow the classic rules of drama. These stories cover multiple genres and styles: comedy, tragedy, satire, fantasy, sci-fi, crime, drama, steampunk, as well as romantic and erotic of course, just to name some of the most obvious.
However, while I was fee-wheeling in my small bit of cognitive oblivion I wondered if any of those 'classic rules' are applicable to your particular short story. I have no way to tell of course; there isn't enough to go by in your first 13, but I wondered anyway.
Does an erotic story require conflict, dramatic wants and needs met or denied, or is simple desire and lust enough? Is there a necessary transformative effect on the characters or is there just the simple satisfaction of a physical/emotional/psychological desire fulfilled?
I just don't know.
Phil.
Posted by extrinsic (Member # 8019) on :
The substantive convention that distinguishes erotic fiction or any of the written-word gamut's categories is explicit mature adult content. Such content might otherwise be labeled "gratuitous" outside the erotica niche.
Lady Chatterly's Lover, D.H. Lawrence; and Ulysses, James Joyce, contain explicit adult content scenes. Fifty Shades of Grey, E. L. James, is a recent and popularly and critically acclaimed erotic novel, and trilogy and film franchise.
Posted by Grumpy old guy (Member # 9922) on :
I understand the distinction, I'm just wondering about the narrative context. Is the narrative just a vehicle to get two people into bed or is it more?
Phil.
Posted by Disgruntled Peony (Member # 10416) on :
Honestly, I enjoyed your first opening better. While this one reflects a better understanding of grammar and style, there is a lot more telling in this version of the story right at the beginning. Telling puts distance between the narrative and the reader. Showing rather than telling pulls the reader into the story.
Just to give you an idea what I mean, using your current two openings as an example, your first 13 lines gave me the impression that Ella was well-educated and skilled at getting what she wanted from men (as well as people in general). That implied to me that she was wealthy, whether through business or otherwise. That was showing. In this new opening you simply tell the reader what Ella does for a living. There's no emotional connection to the description, just a simple statement of fact. I don't often read romances (that's more my mother's forte), but when I do I prefer a close, emotional connection to the characters.
quote:Originally posted by Grumpy old guy: Does an erotic story require conflict, dramatic wants and needs met or denied, or is simple desire and lust enough? Is there a necessary transformative effect on the characters or is there just the simple satisfaction of a physical/emotional/psychological desire fulfilled?[/QB]
A well-written piece of erotic fiction involves plot as well as passion. The passion is generally relevant to the plot in some way, shape, or form. Romance novels are a very female-oriented market, which means the genre focuses heavily on emotional impact and character development. I can't speak to JCKelley's motivations, but it seems to me that she's trying to incorporate these aspects into her story.
Posted by extrinsic (Member # 8019) on :
quote:Originally posted by Grumpy old guy: I understand the distinction, I'm just wondering about the narrative context. Is the narrative just a vehicle to get two people into bed or is it more?
Phil.
Erotica genre is as much a vehicle for satire's social commentary as any other literature category, maybe more to the point even. Lust is among or the stronger erotica vices and moral complication-conflict contests on point.
"Shameless" fragment version one's first sentence entails an explicit and satirical enough speech line that also doesn't exceed Hatrack's mature content limitations and artfully expresses the vices, presumably of the whole, greed and lust, and is a satire for sure, though, for me, an only shortfall that the dialogue is disembodied. Otherwise, artfully well done.
Beyond lust, the more artful and popularly appealing erotic genre often do entail more than one pivotal and related vice contest. The forbidden-fruits' lust contest satisfaction package misdirects the true action's other vice contest for a satire's social commentary and persuasion. The "will they or won't they," eventually, sexual tension and suspension question on the surface of an erotic narrative ironically packages explicit appeals that engage target readers and is really and truly about another subtext moral contest, for satire's social persuasion's sake.
And, rather than asserting a moral law, artful erotic satire portrays an outcome of a personally discovered moral truth about the other vice contest. Therein is the art of satire and function of literature overall: social commentary and persuasion. Less artful satire's too-often overt assertions of moral law notwithstood.
[ June 18, 2016, 12:11 PM: Message edited by: extrinsic ]
Posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (Member # 59) on :
quote:Originally posted by JCKelley: Disgruntled Peony- Thank you. That helps
Extrinsic- I am sorry I don't understand either of your critiques.
I must say that this group is the harshest I have been in yet.
Ouch!
JCKelley, feedback here isn't intended to be harsh. The idea is that it be thorough and incisive while remaining polite and helpful.
Nothing anyone has said here is carved in marble. You do not have to listen to anything anyone says - this is your story and you are the final decision-maker on how it will be told.
Everyone else is just expressing their opinions, their reactions to what you have posted from your story.
But, if in no other way, the opinions and reactions of readers can be helpful to you by letting you know the effect (albeit on a mere handful of readers) of what you have written.
As I said, you don't have to pay attention to any of the feedback, but you might want to think about why these readers responded to what you wrote in the way that they did.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)