Hatrack River Writers Workshop: Lowriver

This is topic Lowriver in forum Fragments and Feedback for Short Works at Hatrack River Writers Workshop.

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Posted by Gan (Member # 8405) on :

Hey folks. I've been messing around with a more flexible third person point of view. I'm curious if the below works as an opening.

The story isn't finished yet, but I'd love some feedback on the first four hundred words, if anyone would care to look. This more flexible viewpoint thing is fairly new to me, so I'm having a difficult time judging it for myself. I'd also be more than happy to give you a critique on anything you have.

Thanks,

Jon

Newest Version. Changed up the setting to another one I had in mind. Hopefully this one feels a bit more original.

quote:

The first floor of the Clemmson Brothel bustled with some seventy Lowriver folk; men and women dressed in tattered woolen clothes and thick with the stink of hard labor and ale. Weeks end brought good coin to the massive brothel and most of that came from the first floor—The Pit—from the gambling and drink. The second level flowed with the whores, while the third one dealt in the men.
Etan sat on the granite hearthstones in the corner of the tavern tier, warmed by the fire in her brown woolen tunic. She was bound to the Clemmsons as a veiled guardian, one of many in the brothel, and had yet to break her disguise as a drunkard. I finally advance to Rogue and the bloody Syndicate assigns me on a protection contract, she thought. And for the bloody damned Clemmsons at that.

Version 2:

quote:
The Clemmson Inn bustled with some thirty Lowriver folk; men and women dressed in tattered woolen clothes and thick with the stink of hard labor and ale. Weeks end brought good coin to the Lowriver Inns, through drink and gambling and whore service. Ofttimes bandits followed, and many a drunken barfight besides.
Etan sat aside the fire in the corner of the Inn, warm with a welcomed heat in her brown woolen tunic. Two weeks prior the Clemmsons had hired her as a veiled guardian, and she had yet to break her disguise.I finally advance to Rogue and the bloody Syndicate throws me on a protection contract, she thought. Gods but I'm bored. She felt drunker than she ought to be, but that could not be helped.

First Version:

quote:
The Clemmson Inn bustled with some thirty Lowriver folk; men and women dressed in tattered woolen clothes and thick with the stink of a weeks hard labor. Weeks end brought good coin to the Lowriver Inns, through drink and gambling and whore service. Etan, once footpad for the Clemmsons, had risen only two weeks prior to a higher calling. That of bruiser patron; a guard in disguise. Quite the respectable position, Etan had thought. Only the best of fighters were chosen as bruisers.

[This message has been edited by Gan (edited January 25, 2011).]

[This message has been edited by Gan (edited January 26, 2011).]

Posted by History (Member # 9213) on :

I enjoyed the world creation: the Inn, the lower social status of the patrons, and the introduction of a character of similar humble origins but with delusions of elevation based on physical prowess. I am reminded of The Vulgar Unicorn in Robert Asprin's THIEVE'S WORLD, or perhaps The Silver Eeel in Fritz Leiber's LANKHMAR--but without the sorcery (as yet).

I did stumble over punctuation, word selection, and sentence structure. E.g.
Line 3: "week's", and I'd suggest changing the repetion in "Week's end".
Line 5: a "footpad" is a thief. Why do the Inn owners, the Clemsons, emply a thief? It would be bad for business.
Line 6-7: an inn "patron" is a consumer, thus having an employee designated "brusier patron" is confusing. I imagined him as some sort of undercover bouncer, but that is similarly an oxymoron.

I'd read a but further to hopefully gain understanding.

Respectfully,
Dr. Bob

[This message has been edited by History (edited January 23, 2011).]

Posted by Reziac (Member # 9345) on :

Since I am mightily sick of first-person POV (which I think actively prevents green writers from learning character development, since it SEEMS so much 'easier' to 'be' the "I" character, yet is actually harder to make the character involving) .... I'm starting to cheer whenever I see someone use 3rd person, especially 3rd person personal, which this appears it's going to be. So hell yeah, go for it.

I didn't have any particular problems with this. It does something I do sometimes, a setting of a couple sentences, segueing directly into whatever the MC is doing in that setting. In this case, apparently bettering himself -- from hired thief to better-class bouncer. That implies an interesting society, where the footpad is a social accessory to those who can afford it, but is himself scorned... maybe implying that the hidden professions are looked down on.

"Bruiser patron" will need elucidation, but I'd guess this fragment hasn't gotten that far yet.

This bit,

quote:
Quite the respectable position, Etan had thought. Only the best of fighters were chosen as bruisers.

implies that maybe it didn't turn out to be such a great self-improvement plan after all, leading me to immediately be interested in why that might be.

So you've got a lot of information packed into a small space, with several leads peering out into the society and at this Etan fellow. Good start, lots of potential.

Posted by EVOC (Member # 9381) on :

I did not have much to stumble on this either. I did see that repeat of the word 'week' with in three words of each other. I would suggest changing that.

As Reziac said, I like that you get a lot of information in the brief passage with out overloading the reader. It seems natural to me.

I like the idea where that your MC was a thief and now "promoted" to under cover bouncer was a great concept. I immediately thought that the idea of order is imposed but no one wants to see organized security, so they get these bruisers to "take care of" the problem people.

I think you got a good story idea brewing here and see potential in this.

P.S. I hate writing in first person (though it doesn't bother me to read), so I champion those writing in third person.

Posted by Wordcaster (Member # 9183) on :

I liked your writing and your great description of the setting. I'm hoping that the action begins very soon. Other than the inn bustling, there is nothing happening yet. We learn the mc is a bruiser, but I would perhaps prefer to see him do something before learning his career progression.

The first 13 is good enough to make me keep reading, but I am ready to jump into an active scene.

Posted by Gan (Member # 8405) on :

Thanks folks.

Reading your comments, I feel that I'm not being quite clear enough in this opening section. This probably stems from my own confusion about the direction I want to take this piece. Thankfully, with a bit more plotting and world-building on my end, I should be able to remedy this.

I worded my first post a bit wrong. I typically write in third person, not first, but it was always very close/personal third person and inflexible. I do love the close/personal third person, but I feel not having control of the 'zoom in/out' techniques was holding me back. Here, I start with a more distanced viewpoint whereupon a character isn't even introduced, and then quite quickly we're brought into the head of our main character, Etan. It seems like this has worked to some degree, though I'll certainly have to rework the next few paragraphs.

Thanks a bunch, folks. Very, very helpful comments.

[This message has been edited by Gan (edited January 24, 2011).]

Posted by Reziac (Member # 9345) on :

<blink> That's not really zoomed out, it's just doing a bit of set dressing around the POV character. Stuff he's routinely aware of cuz he lives there (so it's really NOT zoomed out of his head), and that is relevant to whatever action we're about to segue into, but that he isn't necessarily staring at this instant. A way of sliding information into the action without an obvious infodump. Anyway, I thought it worked fine. I use a similar construction for offhand bits of setting, and I only write 3rd person personal myself.

Posted by Foste (Member # 8892) on :

I loved the opening; plenty of setting without info dumping.
Also, I am interested in the MC line of work.

I'd definitely read on.

Posted by Gan (Member # 8405) on :

Alright, I've rewritten the starting bit and added it to the original post. Better, worse?

Thanks.

Reziac: Yeah, again I'm probably wording things incorrectly. I tend to have hard times explaining what I mean. Haha.

To everyone else: Let me know in here if you'd like me to critique something of your own, be it a first thirteen or a full blown short story. I don't typically critique in the first thirteen sections, typically because by the time I find something everyone has already stated my own sentiments. I tend to be a bit slow.

Edit: Oops. I copy pasted the wrong version for the rewrite. Fixed it now, though.

[This message has been edited by Gan (edited January 25, 2011).]

Posted by Reziac (Member # 9345) on :

Wow. Those are two different stories! The original Etan was not even the same gender (I saw that one as decidedly male), and the picture is quiet, refined, wax-and-polish. The revised Etan ... well, gender is stated, and the picture is raucous and gravel-and-splinters. Both work, and about equally well for me... just depends where you want it to go.

Maybe you should write both.

[I'm reminded of a tagline that goes "Better watch out, or you'll wind up drugged and edited."]

[This message has been edited by Reziac (edited January 25, 2011).]

Posted by EVOC (Member # 9381) on :

I too origianly was certian the MC was a male. While I only saw minor issue with the original intro, having read your rewrite I see that perhaps I was more confused than I thought.

I like the flow of your rewrite better and I think the same information that was established in the first is still there and then some.

I like it.

Posted by skadder (Member # 6757) on :

I thought she was male in the first version.

The bit about the fire 'Etan sat aside the fire in the corner of the Inn, warm with a welcomed heat in her brown woolen tunic' could be re-done as it is a little redundant around the heat/warmth/fire thing. if you tightened it you could reduce it to two mentions.

'Aside' feels like an incorrect use. You can step aside, throw a book aside. but the implication is that there is an expected place and aside is to one side of that. Beside would seem to me a better fit in the context. Others may differ--it is my opinion only.

I think it best to avoid the retrospective 'Two weeks prior...' statement until you are further into the story. Intros--IMO--are about establishing world, character, situation (immediate), conflict etc. What happened two weeks ago can be introduced a little later. Also consider trying a more camouflaged way of delivering the information.

Otherwise it's good stuff--starting in a tavern in a medieval fantasy world has, of course, been done a considerable number of times, but you know that.

[This message has been edited by skadder (edited January 26, 2011).]

Posted by Smiley (Member # 9379) on :

skadder wrote:

quote:

starting in a tavern in a medieval fantasy world has, of course, been done a considerable number of times, but you know that.

I, for one, love those kinds of stories. I'm of the opinion that the world needs more of 'em.

[This message has been edited by Smiley (edited January 26, 2011).]

Posted by skadder (Member # 6757) on :

Then you should read slush, because you'll come across a lot of them.

Posted by Josephine Kait (Member # 8157) on :

Lots of wonderful things start in Taverns

Nits:
I would trade “dressed…” in the first line for “huddled…” or “shivered…”
Drop the “and” between “clothes” and “thick”
Add an adjective to the ale, sour ale, cheap ale, dark ale, etc.
“Week’s end” or even “Weeksend” rather than “Weeks end”
Trade “aside the fire” for just “near the fire”
Trade “a welcomed heat” for “a welcome heat”

Nits aside , I like the flavor of this and would definitely keep reading.

Posted by Gan (Member # 8405) on :

Thanks a bunch, folks. More great suggestions. I've done a rewrite, moving the setting around a bit. Hopefully this new one feels a bit more unique, without losing anything in the prior versions.

[This message has been edited by Gan (edited January 26, 2011).]

Posted by skadder (Member # 6757) on :

Yes...more unique.

Posted by Josephine Kait (Member # 8157) on :

More original, yes, but less endearing (to me at least), you went from inn to tavern to brothel. I much prefer a tavern setting. Also having her curse her new employers seems ungrateful. In the first version she would have some loyalty to them for promoting her, in the second she would have less but still some as they are her clients, but in the third it is almost as if she would like something bad to happen to them. Not so great, as she is supposed to be protecting them? In the first version you have a family run inn that is only “low” because of the nature of the patrons, in the second everything feels like it is on the same level and the consistency drew me in, but in the third I recoiled from wanting anything further to do with the place. It seems like a fine line to walk, to make a place seedy enough to be interesting and not so awful as to be repugnant. I’m sorry, but I don’t like the third one, not because the writing is bad (it’s not) but because I don’t like where you’ve gone. IMHO

Posted by Reziac (Member # 9345) on :

I agree with Josephine -- this 3rd version loses something. Nothing against brothels as a setting (I "see" the place fairly clearly; it's not much like either tavern), but this one has this sense of being flung at us, rather than drawing us in. It lacks the other versions' sense of Etan having a job and a goal in life, and makes her seem more like a victim of her job. (And that sense might be *very* different if she were male in this version.)

Again, this is not necessarily a bad start, but it's a different story. So now you've got THREE stories that need writing. Better quit revising while you're ahead, and just write the durn thing.

I just had a funny vision of an anthology of tales that were intended to be all the same story, but wound up entirely different... come to think of it, didn't someone pub something like that once, back about 25 years ago??

Posted by Gan (Member # 8405) on :

Thanks folks.

I think I was starting in the wrong place, which is probably why I went through so many damned revisions. I've got a new version now, very much different than this story was meant to be. It's funny how things can change so much over the course of revision.

Anyways, all of these comments have been incredibly useful. I'll have to post the new story when I finish it.

Posted by sfedders (Member # 9448) on :

--
I like this opening, it's really quite solid. My nitpick is that "from the gambling and drink" would flow better as from gambling and drink, or from the gambling and the drink, the unevenness bothers me. Also the homogeneity of the patrons clothes and Etan's tunic being woolen caused them to blur together for me.