Hatrack River Writers Workshop: NEAR

This is topic NEAR - maybe WotF in forum Fragments and Feedback for Short Works at Hatrack River Writers Workshop.

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Posted by Zero (Member # 3619) on :

This is what I'm talking about. It has a slow, non-hooking start which means it'll probably be tossed in the garbage without giving the rest of the story an earnest chance.

quote:
September was slipping away, and as Dr. Jones took in the crisp morning air, his mind was turning circles.
He sipped at a hot cup of Earl Grey, as he always did, pausing only to nibble small bites of his buttered crumpet. His porch faced the Livingston Mountains, a set of rolling hills placed against a rising backdrop of broad, emerald peaks. But their beauty was lost to him, as he stared deeply into the nether regions of his own mind. Eyes glazed, he lost sight of everything, even the clouds above warped into the distorted shapes of numbers and equations that poured through his head like a thin trail of acid--leaving him perplexed, brow furrowed.
He dropped the pen, watching it roll gently along the glass surface of his table.

edit: changed Lady Grey to Earl Grey because Lady Grey is trademarked, though I know lady Grey is derived from Earl Grey, I hate calling it Earl Grey because so many fictional characters are already famous for their love of Earl Grey

NOTE: I'm also considering another technique. Writing the piece in first person, present tense. Would something like that work? or would it be disqualified almost instantly?

Ex:

quote:
September is slipping away and I sit, taking in the crisp morning air. But my mind is not at peace, it turns circles, grinding away. I sip my hot cup of Earl Gray, the porcelein tight between my fingers. I pause only to nibble my buttered crumpet, my mind still beating against the question that has no answer.

[This message has been edited by Zero (edited July 21, 2008).]

Posted by Devnal (Member # 6724) on :

Hey, I, without a doubt, like the first person of this better so far. It seems to move quicker along. I get the idea of what you are saying in the 3rd person paragraph in only a couple of sentences with the first. I get to the hook faster (the question that has no answer). The rest is gravy and can be injected later in my opinion.

I'd suggest continue with the 1st person and see if it continues to work for you. (though I don't know alot about WOTF and don't know why that would disqualify you)

[This message has been edited by Devnal (edited July 21, 2008).]

Posted by Nick T (Member # 8052) on :

Hi Zero,

I agree that the second version works better. Firstly, the hook is much, much stronger ("my mind still beating against the question that has no answer") because it gets the reader wondering what the question might be.

In the first version we only get a picture of a mathematician/physicist at work, which isn't going to be interesting to most people and, obviously, it's very difficult to illustrate the thought process in a way that works dramatically.

The other reason that the second version works is that it is much more tightly written (though I'd quibble with "porceline tight between my fingers"). The first version is a bit flabby whereas the second only says what it needs to say.

My view on first person, present tense is that you have to be *very* confident in your skills. IMO, 1st person really exposes any weak spots in your writing, especially in creating an engaging voice.

Present tense is less common and can be a problem for some readers, so using it would have to be a calculated risk.

regards,

Nick

Posted by Zero (Member # 3619) on :

Thanks, guys.

Posted by kings_falcon (Member # 3261) on :

I'm in the minority so far. I liked the first version. You've done a great job showing me about the character without clubbing me over the head. I will want to know what the Spec element and conflict are PDQ but I could really like the third person version.

I didn't like the 1st person version because, it's not my favorite way to tell a story and I felt like the MC was withholding. He's thinking about the question, but I don't know what that is. Because of the intimacy with 1st person, I don't want/like the introspection. Tell me what's on his mind.

Posted by Zero (Member # 3619) on :

Thanks KF,

I too favor the 3rd person, possibly because I'm more comfortable with that voice. Now, was the first version too boring? I realize it doesn't "reach out and grab you", but would you think most slush readers would keep going, or toss it aside in a fit of boredom?

Posted by kings_falcon (Member # 3261) on :

I would have kept reading. I'll want something to happen soon because it's a short but the writing is clear and clean so I'd give you more time.

Posted by Zero (Member # 3619) on :

I've decided to add the line "beating against the question that seemed to have no answer." (After "mind turning circles") as a sort of "hook" from the second version.

How does that sound/feel? Better? Contrived?

Posted by kings_falcon (Member # 3261) on :

Do you tell me or at least give me a strong hint what the question is in the next line or two? If so, I could live with it and not start grousing about withholding.

But . . . why not just hook us with the unanswerable question?

Posted by Grijalva (Member # 3295) on :

Hey Zero,

I also felt the 3rd person is the stronger of the two. The 3rd person gave me a sense of grounding into your character's world. I'm able to see his current environment in relation to his current problems.

The first person feels forced and not as well paced as the 3rd person.

Comments on the 3rd: Get rid of any, "was," that isn't needed. "September was slipping away," Could be a more powerful sentence, if you made it active. "His mind was turning circles," should be: "His mind turned circles."

Be careful with your tense: "He dropped the pen, (watched) watching it roll gently along the glass surface of his table."

Overall though, I like it and you've caught my interest. I think people may like your 1st person more, because it's a lot more active. The syntax is also a bit less wordy.

Posted by Zero (Member # 3619) on :

Thanks for the comments. Really good "food for thought," to nibble at. But one thing I'm debating with inside my mind is your comment about my line "he dropped the pen, watching it roll," and I see that it appears tense-inconsistent by switching from "ed" to "ing" for the second verb (same subject), however, I don't think "he dropped the pen, watched it roll" is at all correct. Maybe "dropped the pen and watched it roll" would be best/most correct. But I could have sworn that I've seen/heard this kind of shift before "dropped the pen, watching it roll across the table."

Is that wrong to do?

Posted by annepin (Member # 5952) on :

It is the wrong thing, but it's not a tense issue. Your use of the participle "watching" here implies simultaneous action.

"dropped the pen, watching it roll across the table."

as written, means he's watching the pen roll even as he's dropping it. This is impossible. I've seen similar things written, and I think writers get away with it, but I think it's worth fixing. The reason why I think writers can sneak it in is because the act of dropping the pen happens so quickly it's almost instantaneous, allowing him to watch it roll even as he drops it. But still, to be correct, I'd go with the "and watched" fix.

[This message has been edited by annepin (edited July 24, 2008).]

Posted by Nick T (Member # 8052) on :

Hi Zero,

I agree with Anne that "He dropped the pen and watched it roll" is the most correct. Me at grammer poor, but it *sounds* the best to my ear and it makes it perfectly clear what happened.

Having re-read both passages as well as the comments, I think that one of the previous critiquers hit the nail on the head in that both POVs have their strengths. The 3rd person paints a picture, but the 1st person is active and concise (which is why I like it more).

Probably the reason I reacted against the 3rd person was that the description put me off and the phrasing was passive. It wasn't bad, but I liked the tightness of the 1st person. It's probably a matter of sharpening up the 3rd person rather than abandoning it and going for the 1st person POV.

As always, my opinion should always be taken with a large grain of salt.

Cheers,

Nick

Posted by Zero (Member # 3619) on :

Thanks Anne and Nick, you have given me a lot to think about.

Posted by Crystal Stevens (Member # 8006) on :

I feel that this piece could be done in third person, too, and still be strong. For example:

September is slipping away and he sits, taking in the crisp morning air. But his mind is not at peace, it turns circles, grinding away. He sips his hot cup of Earl Gray, the porcelein tight between his fingers. He pauses only to nibble his buttered crumpet, his mind still beating against the question that has no answer.

It's the same piece told the same way but from third person. Don't get me wrong. I liked the voice of the first person, but I am just showing that it could be done in third just as easily the way it's written. Something else to think about .

Posted by Zero (Member # 3619) on :

Yeah. I hadn't even considered 3rd/present tense. I'd just automatically assumed 3rd would be past, like tradition.

That brings me to another question. What tense seems to work best here? Setting aside person for the moment.

Posted by annepin (Member # 5952) on :

Hm... I'd say past, though it's hard to know without knowing what the story is. Present is a lot edgier, and might rub some people the wrong way.

Posted by Zero (Member # 3619) on :

Thanks.

Posted by Crystal Stevens (Member # 8006) on :

Some time back I read a book that was done 1st person/present tense, and it about drove me crazy for the first few chapters until I finally got used to the writing style. I think that's what happens when you read a lot when it's usually in either 1st or 3rd person/past tense.

Posted by Zero (Member # 3619) on :

But suppose you're reading through thousands of entries for a contest, would it be fresh to read from a non-traditional pov/tense, or would it be distasteful?

Posted by annepin (Member # 5952) on :

I think that reaction largely depends on the judges. Don't know if anyone here can answer that for you. It _is_ a risk. The question I think you have to ask yourself is whether you think it's a risk worth taking. It may very well be, considering this contest runs four times a year, and you very likely will write something else submittable during that time.

One thing you can do is read through the old stories, find out who the judges are and read up on their work, or research what sorts of stories they like. That might put you in a better position to assess whether it's a risk worth taking.

The other thing to do would be to ask yourself, what does present tense bring to this story that past tense wouldn't? Does that effect amplify or distract from the story itself?

Posted by Zero (Member # 3619) on :

You post made me laugh because I read it incorrectly and I thought you wrote (when talking about the judges) I need to ... "read up on their asses." Which flashed the image of you as a football coach, or a drill seargent, trying to motivate me.

But anyway, good points, annepin.

So is there a place (online - for free) that I can read some of the winning stories?

Posted by Khalan (Member # 5950) on :

The first person writing is nice, and the scene is pleasant, but there is no hook. I have no desire to read about the idle musings of a rustic English gentleman. I would strongly encourage you to add a hook.

The present tense works better here than it does with the third person perspective in your Winter Outcast story. I'm not sure if I like it or not, but agree with the others that you should continue to experiment with it.