I'm looking for anyone interested in reading the entire thing. First 13 critiques welcome as well.
1) Is the HOOK strong enough?
2) Would you read on?
3) Are you able to clearly see his PoV?
First 13:
(Indent)Pantroth loved the wetwork. The thrust of the spear and the cuts, stabs, and parries of the sword were art forms in which he was a master. There was a cadence in the clash of steel and a thrill in the cleaving of flesh on the battlefield. In this end there was the honor of a warrior, not the squalid whimpers of the aged and infirm. (Indent)He reaped through the enemy like a farmer through a wheat field, without guilt or malice. The soldiers that surrounded him were nervous and anxious, or inexperienced and hesitant. They followed him, stood or advanced in his wake. They waited to be shown what to do. (Indent)Not Pantroth. He was just what Captain Kathar wanted him to be: a stone-cold-killer.
[This message has been edited by InarticulateBabbler (edited June 15, 2007).]
Posted by O-Sapo (Member # 5569) on :
1. Is the Hook Strong enough?
For me your hook has a sutble pull to it. Subtle because it seems removed from the battle field.
2. POV
Is the POV Pantroth's or Captian Kather? I'm confused because it starts off from seemingly Pantroth's POV,( Pantroth loved the wetwork) and (In this end there was the honor of a warrior, not the squalid whimpers of the aged and infirm.) Read as Panthroth's feelings and opinions not Captian Kahter's.
However,the second paragraph seems to be Captain Kathar observing the enemy being mowed down and saying good old Panthroth, he always does what I want. (They followed him, stood or advanced in his wake. They waited to be shown what to do. (Indent)Not Pantroth. He was just what Captain Kathar wanted him to be: a stone-cold-killer.)
A suggestion is to start off with Captiin Kathar in the first paragraph. That is if he's the POV.
3. Would I read on? I sure would. Mainly because Panthroth is mowing over a amry single-handedly.
Posted by O-Sapo (Member # 5569) on :
And the writing has a good voice to it.
Posted by bean carter (Member # 5573) on :
Some great sentances here. I love the idea that he kills without guilt or malice.
At the risk of revealing my ignorance (there are worse things that could happen), what do you mean by wetwork? I'd never heard of it. I looked it up and eventually found "wet work" on Wikipedia, which refers to covert operations and espionage. It seems to be a modern term, while the warfare here seems to be more ancient (spears and swords.) How does that word relate to the story? Sorry if I'm just missing the obvious here.
I also didn't understand the phrase "in this end." In this end of what?
Anyway, I was pretty hooked from what I read, and I would be even more hooked if I hadn't stumbled over those two phrases.
I'd be more than happy to read it, if you like.
Posted by InarticulateBabbler (Member # 4849) on :
Wetwork refers to bloody work. A killer that likes to get his hands dirty, literally, enjoys the wetwork.
Posted by mfreivald (Member # 3413) on :
quote: (Indent)Pantroth loved the wetwork. The thrust of the spear and the cuts, stabs, and parries of the sword were art forms in which he was a master. {<--Nit: I would consider them varied strokes of a single art form, so the plural kind of – but only slightly – throws me off.}There was a cadence in the clash of steel and a thrill in the cleaving of flesh on the battlefield. {<--The words "cadence" and "cleaving" are almost cliché here. Not enough that I would fret if I didn't find more satisfying words, but enough to make me at least try to find them. Of a greater concern might be the sound of reading "cadence," "clash," and "cleaving" so closely together.} In this end there was the honor of a warrior, not the squalid whimpers of the aged and infirm. {<--I'm slightly thrown by "In this end," too. I'm not sure what you mean.}
(Indent)He reaped through the enemy like a farmer through a wheat field, without guilt or malice. {<--"Reap" does sort of strike me as odd until I get to the second half of the sentence, but I think in the end I like it. It suggests the angel of death, and it could also suggest a very low value for human life. – Humans are just so much wheat.}The soldiers that surrounded him were nervous and anxious, or inexperienced and hesitant. {<--I would drop one word on each side of "or." I'd probably keep anxious and hesitant and drop nervous and inexperienced, but the other way would improve it, too.} They followed him, stood or advanced in his wake. {<--This is okay, but I think it would be stronger with a single verb. It also conveys almost the same meaning as the sentence that follows it. Maybe a single sentence like "The wake of blood spilled by Pantroth gave them a trail of purpose" or something like that would improve it.} They waited to be shown what to do.
(Indent)Not Pantroth. He was just what Captain Kathar wanted him to be: a stone-cold-killer. {<--I don't think you need the second hyphen.}
quote:1) Is the HOOK strong enough?
The purpose of his fighting is not clear, so the hook seems mostly to be character. I would be interested in seeing how this "stone-cold-killer" dealt with whatever pain or difficulty you are bringing his way.
quote:2) Would you read on?
I would read long enough to get a feel for what the author is going to do with this character. If the conflicts challenge his personality enough, I might be drawn in.
quote:3) Are you able to clearly see his PoV?
The vision is there, but there does seem to be a slight drift from Pantroth's PoV, to the hesitant warriors PoV, to the Captain. Perhaps the sentence I wrote above would be better written as "He provided them with a wake of blood; a trail of purpose." This would keep the PoV focused on Pantroth's action rather than the others following. With the same thing in mind, the statement regarding the Captain might read better as : "He gave Captain Kathar just what he wanted: a stone-cold killer."
I like the names, and the MC has me engaged. I'd be happy to give it a read, if you like.
[This message has been edited by mfreivald (edited June 15, 2007).]
Posted by Grijalva (Member # 3295) on :
In no means am I trying to be harsh, but just give advice, and its only my opinion in the end.
"Wetwork," threw me off, never heard the word, and it sounds futurist. Why not just say he likes to bath himself in blood.
"The thrust of the spear and [the] cuts, stabs, and parries of the sword were art forms in which he [was] a master." This sentence feels like your telling me the story, instead of showing me the story. Couldn't you tell me this through his actions? Or the scars on his body from such intense training?
"There [was] a cadence in the clash of steel and a thrill in the cleaving of flesh on the battlefield." Again can this be told through his actions, and be showin to us, to the let the reader decide. This is also repeating the the second sentence, just in a different way.
Ok, I'm not going to go any further, but I feel your trying to tell the reader who this character is, instead of relying upon your writing ability to show the reader, and let the reader decide what they think of this character.
Its like this character is being looked at by someone else, and were not in his mind at all. I also put brackets on words that don't need to be there, or make your sentence passive.
I would enjoy reading this full piece, if you would let me, and give you my feedback.
[This message has been edited by Grijalva (edited June 15, 2007).]
Posted by kings_falcon (Member # 3261) on :
Hey IB, did you already send this to me?
1)Hook.
I'm hooked but more because of Voice than any real action or suspense. Also, there is the anticpation of Panthroth being sent to reap.
2)Read on.
Yes. The Voice would keep me going even though the beginning is reflective. Great Voice!!!!
3)POV
Not 100% sure. Could be Full Omni, or Pantroth. I didn;t think it was Kathar.
I didn't have any problem with "wetwork" because the next sentance made that clear. Also, "in this end" I read in "of his life" was the honor of . .
My 2 cents . . .
quote: . He reaped through the enemy like a farmer through a wheat field, without guilt or malice. The soldiers that surrounded him "around him" maybe. It doesn't seem likely that his people would surround him. The Captain would want Pantroth in front to do his job. Why surround him with "cannon fodder?" were nervous and anxious, or inexperienced and hesitant a bit of telling, but not annoyingly so . They followed him I assumed he was a Captain not a rank and file from this , stood or advanced in his wake. They waited to be shown what to do. Not Pantroth If Pantroth is the POV, it probalu should be "Not him." The "Not Pantroth" threw me because I thought I was in his POV and the reference seemed out of sync He was just what Captain Kathar wanted him to be: a stone-cold-killer.
Nice job.
[This message has been edited by kings_falcon (edited June 15, 2007).]
Posted by Antinomy (Member # 5136) on :
I see the opening as mostly dynamic character building, a paragraph that could fit elsewhere in the story. But strong enough hook…….no.
Pantroth is an arrogant guy on top of his game, I’d read on because I suspect a challenge coming.
POV is doing what he likes to do: Slaughter. Also POV; his soldiers fear him. Not much else to go on here.
Last sentence summarizes, or ‘tells’ what you’ve already ‘shown.’
I’ll try reading it.
Posted by Wolfe_boy (Member # 5456) on :
I'd be happy to read, IB. Should be able to turn it around in a weekend.
I'm not thrown off by wetwork (heard it before, or things close to it), but I too question its appropriateness in a medieval-type setting; it sounds like more of a modern term to me. I'll defer though to those that might know better.
The hook is there, but very subtly and might not be a draw for everyone. If we're to be hooked by the fact that Pantroth is a methodical efficient emotionless killer, then you've succeeded - I definitly get that feeling from him. I'm not really feeling a lot of love for the work, however. Perhaps the writing is a little too detatched from the actual warfare going on around him to really get a feeling of pleasure or joy from Pantroth.
I would read on, if only to discover what is actually going on here. Pantroth isn't a character I feel a lot of affinity towards, but hopefully that'll develop shortly.
I do get a decent feeling for his POV, though it seems a little too detached (bringing this up again, sorry!) to me. I get the feeling that he is slaying in a casual, offhand manner rather than with drive and concentration. For example, "He reaped through the enemy like a farmer through a wheat field, without guilt or malice..." initially makes me want to see him dealing death in a crowd of foot soldiers, but we're instantly thrown to an image of threshing wheat, which removes me from the immediacy of battle and makes me think Pantroth is daydreaming as he slays.
Maybe the thing I'm feeling is that I'm being told about a character when I might be shown. I suppose the difference between these two things comes down to stylistic tendencies, as I prefer to show as much as possible. I am interested to see what happens next, though.
Jayson Merryfield
Posted by darklight (Member # 5213) on :
It took me two or three reads to really get intersted in it and want to know more. First time I read it, the first paragraph seemed a little too much like telling us about Pantros, rather than showing us anything real from his point of view. But after a couple more reads, I could accept that.
quote:The thrust of the spear and the cuts, stabs, and parries of the sword were art forms in which he was a master
I'm thinking should be: ...of the sword was an art form...
quote:The soldiers that surrounded him were nervous and anxious, or inexperienced and hesitant.
I am assuming we have two types of people here; the nervous and anxious and the inexperienced and hesitant so maybe its ok to have both sets of description but I'm not sure.
Is the hook strong?
I'm intersted but I don't know if enough to read the whole thing, maybe.
Would you read on?
As above, maybe.
Are you able to clearly see his POV?
I think its needs to be made stronger.
I will read if you want to send it but I can't promise a quick reply.
Posted by DebbieKW (Member # 5058) on :
I noticed and agree with most of what's been said here, especially mfreivald's points, but I won't reiterate most of those points.
quote:Pantroth loved the wetwork. The thrust of the spear and the cuts, stabs, and parries of the sword were art forms in which he was a master. There was a cadence in the clash of steel and a thrill in the cleaving of flesh on the battlefield. In this end there was the honor of a warrior, not the squalid whimpers of the aged and infirm.
When I read 'wetwork,' I initially though 'swimmer' or 'diver.' Then you talk about thrusts, cuts, stabs, etc., of which Pantoth is a master. Now I'm seeing him in a practice yard. Maybe he's preparing for getting bloody since he likes that part? (i.e. I figure out your meaning of wetwork from this, but don't see him actively engaged in it yet. It sounds more like he loves the art of fighting than the killing from this sentence.) Your third sentence finally mentions a battlefield and a thrill from killing, but 1) this could still be daydreaming of the battlefield and 2) we get a remote 'a thrill in' rather than 'he revealed in the thrill of...' I still don't get that he's actually in a battle. Though oddly phrased, the last sentence of that paragraph finally clues me in that he might be actively fighting and that he fights so that he will die strong, not as a weakling. Motivation! I perk up.
At this point, I figure that Pantroth is the POV.
quote:He reaped through the enemy like a farmer through a wheat field, without guilt or malice. The soldiers that surrounded him were nervous and anxious, or inexperienced and hesitant. They followed him, stood or advanced in his wake. They waited to be shown what to do.
Now it's abundantly clear that he's on an actual battlefield. But now I begin to doubt that Pantroth is the POV. Even if you're a darn good swordsman, you don't think philosophy during a battle. He would be concentrating on killing and staying alive, not thinking of wheat and that he did this killing without guilt or malice. Maybe this is omni POV?
The 'multiple choice' descriptions of his fellow soldiers only slows the reader down. I'd suggest 'were nervous and hesitant,' since I'd get sense that they're inexperienced from that. The 'stood or advanced....waited to be shown what to do' rather threw me. Are they standing or advancing? If they are advancing, then they aren't waiting. However, why in the world isn't their captain/general telling them what to do? Or is Pantroth plowing ahead when he ought to be waiting for instructions (i.e. disobeying orders)?
quote:Not Pantroth. He was just what Captain Kathar wanted him to be: a stone-cold-killer.
Now I'm wondering if we're in Captain Kather's point of view. People rarely think of themself by name like this. I'm now guessing that the captain has given an order, but only Pantroth surges forward, and the captain has been surveying his men's reactions. But what about that bit earlier that seemed to be from Pantroth's POV? So I'm stumped on POV.
Was the hook strong enough? Would you read on? No, because I'm confused about POV and because I have no one I care about. (I don't care about cold-blooded murders and don't know enough about anyone else to care about them.) I don't even know the point of the battle, so I have no stakes to care about.
Posted by InarticulateBabbler (Member # 4849) on :
Thanks to all who volunteered to read, it's on its way.
O-Sapo, you don't have an available email address, so I couldn't send it out to you.
DebbieKW, I appreciate your view.
Not to argue it, but because I see now my mistake in offering no set up:
Believe it or not, this is a character-oriented piece. I wanted to illustrate how Pantroth thought of himself: a master of killing, and a good fighter for his captain.
To everyone else, there isn't a set time period. This is a milieu that I'm writing about in a larger work in progress. I wanted to be free of restriction, so I chose to work in the heroic fantasy realm. It doesn't have to be historically accurate, it's not earth history. However, for the purposes of this short jaunt into Pantroth's world, I would like it to make you feel something. Dislike of the protagonist is an acceptable feeling -- it's a little hoped for, in the beginning.
[This message has been edited by InarticulateBabbler (edited June 15, 2007).]
Posted by InarticulateBabbler (Member # 4849) on :
kings_falcon,
quote: I didn't have any problem with "wetwork" because the next sentance made that clear. Also, "in this end" I read in "of his life" was the honor of . .
you got it.
Posted by kings_falcon (Member # 3261) on :
I also got it was a Character peice in the whole MICE continuum. On a quick read through it's a good Character peice too.
Posted by KayTi (Member # 5137) on :
Add me to the wetwork confused pile. I got it, eventually. And it is an interesting word. I just was confused. I think my confusion was mostly based on what Debbie said - I wasn't sure if he was in the action now or just reflecting on it. Part of my confusion came from a game I recently played that had a section called "waterworks" so wetwork first brought up an image of underground sewer systems, not likely to happen with most readers, LOL.
Nits: I know nothing of actual weapons, but in the video games I play (try not to laugh) typically a warrior is either expert at sword or spear, the two weapons require different moves. Most warriors can't carry both. They can develop expertise in both, but usually have to specialize. Is there much to be added with the spear? I honestly can't picture a warrior w/a heavy spear in one hand and sword in the other, so I had trouble with this line. Removing the spear bit would simplify the second sentence quite a bit, which I (she of over-long complex sentences) suggest might be helpful.
are whimpers squalid? The word pairing made me go hmm. I liked "aged and infirm" - reading "aged" as two syllables - "age-ed" because it just flowed that way. Was that on purpose? nice. Stumbled over "in this end there was..." - I get what you're saying here, I think, but the use of "end" was not in the way that I expected. For instance, one way is "to that end, he fought with his sword..." or "in the end (meaning, final analysis) he was best with his sword." I guess I'm not quite sure what the end is that he's talking about. Is he talking about dying? Not today, right? Because he's this awesome warrior who Kathar (note - I first typed that as "Kanthar, I think my brain wants to say it that way. You might consider spelling Cathar if you're expecting people pronounce it as cath, like cathy - ar, like are, emphasis on the second syllable. For some reason the K makes me want to emphasize the first.) drools over. So I guess I was scratching my head (metaphorically speaking, of course) about why Pantroth is thinking about dying today. I see that you're setting up his vision of a warrior's death as one of glory and honor, but I stumbled here. Not sure these musings help at all, but offering them up.
I agree w/other posters that the lists related to the other soldiers were a bit too long. I think there would be more power to the descriptions if you just pick fewer ways to describe them. Anxious and hesitant. They followed him, some even advanced in his wake.
Is there a way to introduce the current battle a bit more obviously? I thought I had to work a little hard to understand that there was currently a battle underway that Pantroth was reaping his way through. "On that day on the battlefield in Burgundy, facing the fierce Lombardians, Pantroth reaped through the ..." it would give an opportunity to settle the story into a place and time.
It seems like you have a decent set of readers so far. If you need more, I could but not for a while (I have one in my inbox and I have to meet my own self-imposed deadline on my story this weekend.) Maybe if you need a revision 2 read? Let me know.
Posted by InarticulateBabbler (Member # 4849) on :
He's not using the swords and spear together, but, if you want a "visual" depiction of warriors (a whole army) carrying the sword and spear into battle, I suggest you watch 300, which will be released next month to DVD. It's based on the Battle of Thermopylae.
[This message has been edited by InarticulateBabbler (edited June 15, 2007).]
Posted by Mauvemuse (Member # 5488) on :
quote: (Indent)Pantroth loved the wetwork. {what?} The thrust of the spear and the cuts, stabs, and parries of the sword were art forms in which he was a master {I don't feel involved in the story. More like background on the character}. There was a cadence in the clash of steel and a thrill in the cleaving of flesh on the battlefield. In this end {first read this didn't throw me, but after other people mentioned it it confused me}there was the honor of a warrior, not the squalid whimpers of the aged and infirm {the cadence of the clash of steel, etc. = honor?}. (Indent)He reaped through the enemy like a farmer through a wheat field, without guilt or malice {Maybe, 'He reaped through the enemy with out guilt or malice, like a farmer in a wheat field'}. The soldiers that surrounded him were nervous and anxious, or inexperienced and hesitant {I thought they were from the other side and he was killing them, since he was killing a minute ago, right?}. They followed him, stood or advanced in his wake. They waited to be shown what to do. (Indent)Not Pantroth. He was just what Captain Kathar wanted him to be: a stone-cold-killer.
So my first reaction was 'yay, IB is posting.' Sorry, had to get that out of my system.
The point of view did not throw me, I just accepted that it was omni. The onlt thing that really did confuse me was what was happening and what was just description of him.
I was interested in the battle and the character, but it felt a little too disjointed to me. Maybe cut out the wheat simile and the other soldiers and focus on Panthroth.
But this is just my humble, inexperienced, opinion. From everything else you wrote in other posts it sounds very interesting.
Posted by InarticulateBabbler (Member # 4849) on :
Cadence is a rhythm.
Posted by Mauvemuse (Member # 5488) on :
I knew that. I was just trying to make a point with the line. Oh well...
Edited b/c I sound like an annoying idiot.
[This message has been edited by Mauvemuse (edited June 17, 2007).]
Posted by nitewriter (Member # 3214) on :
I would read on, but not with the as much interest as I could have. As I read this I kept envisioning the characters playing out this scene in an actual battle, demonstrating the traits IB has tagged them with = through action during the course of the battle. I think it would make a stronger scene because of the action and through the action we can "discover" these traits and motivations without simply being told.
Posted by InarticulateBabbler (Member # 4849) on :
Points well taken. I thank you all for taking the time to read this and offer your insights. They are ALL appreciated.
This is a first draft and I'm hunting the flaws before doing a second.
To those who volunteered to read the entire monstrosity, I ask your opinion: If not with this thirteen, where would YOU have it begin?
Your answers are welcome in here OR email.
[This message has been edited by InarticulateBabbler (edited June 17, 2007).]
Posted by Rick Norwood (Member # 5604) on :
I'm new here. And you only wanted 13 critiques, which you've got. So, a few meta-comments.
I notice right away how many critiques contradict one another, which makes we wonder if this workshop will be helpful to me. I suspect only those who go on to read the completed story will actually be able to offer any sound advice, unless the first 13 lines are really, really bad -- which hasn't been the case with the entries I've read.
Posted by Wolfe_boy (Member # 5456) on :
Rick:
By First 13 critiques IB didn't mean that he only wanted the first 13 people to offer a critique, but that we offer a critique on the first 13 lines of his story. It's pretty much de rigeur around here.
I would assume that we all contradict each other because we are separate individuals, or that we don't bother to reiterate the same critiques as someone who previously posted about it unless it is particularly glaring or we have a different spin on the issue. The unique criticisms we offer should be taken that way - an error in the eyes of a singular reader, which may or may not need to be dealt with to improve your first 13. If more than one person (or indeed if everyone) mentions an issue to you, I'd take that as a serious issue and something that should be dealt with.
As for the difference between the first 13 and the full text, maybe check this link out that you might have missed, seeing as you're new. There are other links contained within this thread that are valuable reading as well.
[This message has been edited by Wolfe_boy (edited June 18, 2007).]
Posted by debhoag (Member # 5493) on :
tit for tat, I'd be delighted to read. could do it this weekend. deb
Posted by Matt Lust (Member # 3031) on :
Inarticulate
I'd take a gander at this.
Also to add my two cents. Wetworks is too modern.
I know what it is and because I know its origin in 20th counter-espionage/covert action lexicon I can't accept it in a "fantasy" setting.
That is unless this story takes place in post-apocalyptic or in a Future setting where there maybe space ships but defensive tech has outstripped offensive tech so we're back to daggers and swords. (It worked for Herbert and Green)
Posted by Matt Lust (Member # 3031) on :
I mean I'd read this so send it my way
Posted by JainaSolo21 (Member # 5598) on :
Looks like you've got an interesting story here. Hook: For me, it didn't grab my attention fully. I think it was the word wetwork, but now that I understand it, it's a little better, but it seems to be lacking something or it might be me. I really like the cold-hearted killer idea who loves to bath himself in blood. POV: It was a little confusing. I wasn't sure which one was telling the story. It seems to be more Captain Kathar observing his best warrior. Also, I agree with Grijalva, the paragraph (Pantroth loved the wetwork. The thrust of the spear and the cuts, stabs, and parries of the sword were art forms in which he was a master. There was a cadence in the clash of steel and a thrill in the cleaving of flesh on the battlefield. In this end there was the honor of a warrior, not the squalid whimpers of the aged and infirm.) it seems like you're telling versus showing. Maybe reaccount a brief scene from a battle demonstrating how merciless he really is. Maybe even describe how he killed his last victim, with blood splatter his uniform or blood stain his sword or something along those lines. Would I read on: Depends. Right now, possibly. The story slightly piqued my interest and I'm intrigued in seeing what happens next. So, yes I think I would read more.
Posted by JasonVaughn (Member # 4358) on :
Excellent Start. If I'm not too late I'll take a look at the whole thing.
Posted by mfreivald (Member # 3413) on :
quote:To those who volunteered to read the entire monstrosity, I ask your opinion: If not with this thirteen, where would YOU have it begin?
After reading it, I'm not sure there is a better place. In a way, because of what you did with him later, I like the fact that we don't see a lot of purpose in the beginning other than his sense of being a man of wetwork.
That being said, you might be able to create some kind of mini-drama at the start. Maybe there is a critical tactical point in the battle (with a critical adversary) that he could drive for in order to prevent a disastrous outcome for his side.
Other than that, I might try to find some way to drop a hint to the reader that there is more going on in this story than just following some Conan-like warrior on some Odyssey of blood. I'm not sure how I would do that, though. And I could see how you might want to avoid that, too. (Big, wishy-washy help I am, eh?)
Posted by JasonVaughn (Member # 4358) on :
I liked where it started. It began by showing that the main character was a killer and nothing else. That's all that's required at that time. Yeah, I'll admit, the main character did seem Conanesque to begin, but that was the point. I'd keep the layout as it is.
Posted by Matt Lust (Member # 3031) on :
A few general comments on military culture.
If your MC uses the "warrior" mode of combat as opposed to the "solider" mode of combat I'd like to see more of a description/creation of a sense of the ballet/dance or symphony/music of this first battle. Most "warriors" describe combat as fluid and natural event where they see the path to be taken as it happens. "Soldiers" are the one's who speak of zoning out the noise and focusing that inner core of tempered steel that resulted from training. The two aren't mutually exclusive but they aren't as mutually inclusive as people would like to think.
Also, even this Pantroth is just a killer you have to decide what kind of army he's apart of and how his style fits with the army's style. Soldier armies have chains of command with officers being special people ala nobility. Warrior Armies have only one rule "victory"
Generally Solider armies are threatened by warriors and warrior armies are too chaotic for soliders. However, the most famous generals have been Warriors leading soldiers or Soldiers leading warriors. I see Patton as the former with Charlemagne/ Attila the Hun being the latter.
Reading this story it strikes me that you're trying to make this army both and its not bad but its a little disjointed because I don't know the culture of the army.
Take the scene when the Captain has rode off. This strikes me as a little odd because a Warrior wouldn't care a leader was gone as long as it didn't weaken the fighting effectiveness of his unit. A solider cares if the leader is gone because having a leader is fundamental to the training he received.
Also on an unrelated note The boy, erik, just happening passing a waterskin to the great warrior seems a little off.
It'd make more sense to me for one of two things to happen.
1) Pan makes a generic comment about a thirst to match the sun or some such and the boy brings water
or
2) Pan sees erik's water and demands it from him.
Just having water handed to him by random boy in the army is a little too easy for my reader heart to buy.
Posted by KayTi (Member # 5137) on :
Matt - thanks for making that distinction between Warrior and Soldier. Very interesting. Gave me a lot to think about.
IB - offer still stands if you find yourself needing a reader for another revision, let me know.
Posted by JasonVaughn (Member # 4358) on :
I didn't have a problem with Erik offering Pantroth the water skin. The boy obviously idolises Pantroth. Giving him the waterskin is an excuse to get close to him.
Posted by Matt Lust (Member # 3031) on :
I get the whole "idolized" thing but but at the time of erik's introduction a sense of reverence/respect/idolization etc is not obvious unless the reader is the one who makes it obvious. I'll quote the part directly.
quote: A younger soldier approached him. He’d been among the looters. Pantroth noticed the nervous gait and the wide, shifting eyes, and knew that this had been his first battle. Predators always recognized prey. The boy handed Pantroth a waterskin, which he accepted with a grunt.
In this introduction I see a boy with brass but no reason why he's got this brass. From Pantroth's eye's the boy's a bit battle shocked and green and unless this boy's got a bloodthirst of his own he's not liekly to want to follow. But this doesn't prove that he's awestruck it could mean he's too stupid to avoid the brute.
Part of this could be established by introducing more about the culture of this army and the type of society. Or at least about the particular unit involved in the fighting. If the reader knew that Pantroth's unit was the elite shock troops and that the rest of the army were peasant levies this could help fill in more about the boy's history.
Again to go back to my discusison on culture and to build on the comments made in th "alien worlds" thread, readers need a plausible framework to acception human interaction.
We do generally get Pantroth as brutish/cold blooded but we don't get why this boy is willing to approach a monster, even a friendly monster.
I'll agree that this sense of idolization is developed later. My point is that I don't think it comes out soon enough.
Posted by InarticulateBabbler (Member # 4849) on :
Matt Lust,
(1) As far as the army goes, it IS in between the two aforementioned stages of armies. Pantroth is a warrior, but Erik is a soldier. This is NOT an historical novel, it is a first draft of a heroic fantasy short story.
(2) You are talking of Erik's tentative first encounter with Pantroth, it is impossible to introduce any form of idolization earlier.
(3)Also, this is from Pantroth's PoV. He doesn't know Erik's feelings; or how long the boy's been watching or idolizing him.
quote: Pantroth a waterskin, which he accepted with a grunt.
I could see swapping "accepted" for "snatched", but Pantroth is his own person. He has conflicts of personality.
For the record: It's extremely odd quoting a post that has quoted something you have written.
[This message has been edited by InarticulateBabbler (edited June 25, 2007).]
Posted by Matt Lust (Member # 3031) on :
IB
I realize the difference between historical fiction and fantasy (yes even heoric) but you readers aren't fantastic they're realistic. I realize this story isn't really about the army but about quasi father son relationship that develops. Its just the readers needs little cultural hints to help deepen the story
You can't let the reader do the work for you. Also you can't assume that a reader, a fantasy reader particularly, understands the difference between a warrior and a solider. What I see as a reader, is that too me you're trying to paint Pantroth as a "bad ass" but too me "bad asses" simply don't give two rat's about bad leaders. "Bad asses "are laws unto themselves. See the movie Platoon for the characters played by Tom Berrenger and Wilem Defoe for two different but equally deep and strong "bad ass" characters.
Maybe this guy isn't a "bad ass" maybe he's just an efficient killer with a lump of coal for a brain but that doesn't make him a "warriors" too me. That makes him a soldier with a lot of leeway.
Warriors have an agenda a purpose a philosophy about battle that they let no one superordinate. They may obey a superior authority's orders but they don't necessarily buy the superior's philosophy.
Also I realize you can't "tell" the reader about the idolization sooner but you can show it/hint at it.
again to quote directly this is how the current version looks
quote:A younger soldier approached him. He’d been among the looters. Pantroth noticed the nervous gait and the wide, shifting eyes, and knew that this had been his first battle. Predators always recognized prey. The boy handed Pantroth a waterskin, which he accepted with a grunt. Pantroth poured a mouthful and swallowed. He then splashed a handful on his face, to wash the blood and sweat off of his brow.
quote: As pantroth moved among the looters, a few courageous men met his eyes. Among these was a young solider, still too young to shave. Pantroth noticed the nervous gait and the wide, shifting eyes, and knew that this had been his first battle. Predators always recognized prey. The boy handed Pantroth a waterskin, which he accepted with a grunt. Pantroth poured a mouthful and swallowed. He then splashed a handful on his face, to wash the blood and sweat off of his brow.
This still isn't perfect but the bold part gives the reader a clue about the steel that underlies this battle shocked boy.
All I want is a clue that he's not afraid of the big bad beast but that this is an oddity and there is something more than simple camaraderie and post battle bravado
[This message has been edited by Matt Lust (edited June 25, 2007).]
Posted by InarticulateBabbler (Member # 4849) on :
Put simply, Pantroth thinks of himself as a "warrior".
You don't have to agree.
This is a FIRST draft, and I am considering a lot of advice. The majority of readers who requested it haven't rung-in, yet. I'm not making ANY changes until I have a full array of opinions to think on. I have noticed that the critiques tend to point out certain parts in common, and these -- in particular -- will warrant most of my attention. If I listened to every NIT, I'd either end up scrapping the entire thing, or writing an entire novel. Neither option is acceptable.
I am in the process of writing another Pantroth story, one before he ever enters the army. In it, he mentions the army not being an option for him. People change. I've been developing Pantroth for years. I've seen him go through many changes, and somewhere along the line I discovered that the more complex he is, the less likely he is to be completely predictable.
I've seen Platoon, and guess what: he's neither Barnes nor Elias. He's a bit of both. He doesn't see a toughness in Erik, he recognizes a need that's been buried deep inside of him.
Posted by Matt Lust (Member # 3031) on :
IB,
I'm just offering points and counterpoints not really trying to nit pick. No Harm or foul intended so after this post I'll leave this story alone until you revise it.
As to Pantroth, I very much get he sees himself as a warrior and its strong from his point of view. But the problem I have as a reader of a short is I expect a self contained story. So for better or for worse I need to know what it is that he does as a "warrior" to separate himself from the "soldiers" around him.
And no I didn't mean that Pantroth should be either Barnes or Elliot just that they make good character studies.
You do specific things like mention "warriors mercy" and the "allfather." these hint at the depth of "spirit" I've described warriors having but its underdeveloped in this story.
Re-Reading the captain scenes it feels that you're asking the reader to take a lot on faith about the discipline of the army because you never explicitly deal with this issue.
All I ask is a touch more explicitness in the development of the story's tapestry.
Posted by mfreivald (Member # 3413) on :
Inasmuch as IB might add some realism to the story with Matt Lust's recommendations, they might be worth considering. However, I'm not sure they are necessary for what IB seems to be trying to accomplish. There are some incongruities between what Pantroth thinks and believes, and what is happening in reality, and I think it creates some oddities about the kind of warrior he actually is - and they might even conflict with that culture. So it creates some difficulty in trying to convey that culture. But I don't think the story is about the culture nearly as much as it is about Pantroth's disjointed and somewhat unrealistic perception.
IB gives some clues to that effect, and I think there is a good deal of mystery about Pantroth's psychology that is reflected in the way he thinks and does things. Depending upon what IB is trying to accomplish, this mystery and these incongruities can be good things.
I would probably experiment with some of the things Matt is suggesting with those things in mind.
Posted by debhoag (Member # 5493) on :
I think your starting point is sound; the only alternate that I could really see is if you started with Pantroth's dying in Erik's arms, and then recounted the events leading up to it. But it seems like 6 of one, half-dozen of another to me. Start it that way and you give away the big finish. Or maybe, start with him freeing the officer, then backstory then big finish. Posted by debhoag (Member # 5493) on :
I don't know if I mentioned it before, but you have a real talent for being inside Pantroth's head. I really liked his internal dialogue and viewpoints. If you are looking for a way to spice up the beginning, maybe some strong internal dialogue from him would do the trick.
Posted by kings_falcon (Member # 3261) on :
I still have to chime in on a full crit but thought it was important to pop in here.
I've read the whole version three times now and this is the only place to start it without it becoming a novel. The dying in the arms and flashing back, while a good suggestion, is a bit cliche and probably wouldn't work. Pantroth doesn't have a lot of time to reflect while he's dying and isn't the kind of person who would relive the last 24 hours while dying.
I didn't have a problem with Erik offering the waterskin or Pantroth's reaction. Because Erik is willing to risk approaching Pantroth you see he is made of different stuff than the rest. Pantroth's acceptance of the skin is simple need, and a grudging respect for what the boy might become while maintaining a professional distance.
This is a Character peice and a lot of the suggestions here are for Events peices. There is a lot of character in those 5 sentances and it stays true to the POV. To Pantroth the kid is still just fodder and Pantroth wouldn't notice the idolization but he does notice the "nervous gait and the wide, shifting eyes." While Erik is nervous, in part, from approaching Pantroth, Pantroth interpretes the action from his POV.
You can't rush the character development for the sake of action in this one.
Stumbled over "in this end there was..." - I get what you're saying here, I think, but the use of "end" was not in the way that I expected. For instance, one way is "to that end, he fought with his sword..." or "in the end (meaning, final analysis) he was best with his sword." I guess I'm not quite sure what the end is that he's talking about. Is he talking about dying? Not today, right? Because he's this awesome warrior who Kathar (note - I first typed that as "Kanthar, I think my brain wants to say it that way. You might consider spelling Cathar if you're expecting people pronounce it as cath, like cathy - ar, like are, emphasis on the second syllable. For some reason the K makes me want to emphasize the first.) drools over. So I guess I was scratching my head (metaphorically speaking, of course) about why Pantroth is thinking about dying today. I see that you're setting up his vision of a warrior's death as one of glory and honor, but I stumbled here. Not sure these musings help at all, but offering them up. 