Hatrack River Writers Workshop: Working title "Witness"

This is topic Working title "Witness" in forum Fragments and Feedback for Short Works at Hatrack River Writers Workshop.

To visit this topic, use this URL:
http://www.hatrack.com/ubb/writers/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=11;t=002243

Posted by Chris V (Member # 3936) on :

The genre is SF, currently working ona 1st draft (I'm a few thousand words in), though this is from the third rewrite. I'm not overly concerned with spelling mistakes at this stage. I am interested in knowing if you'd keep reading, also if there is any confusion about what is happening. I'd also love to know what questions this opening makes you ask. I want to be sure I know what I should be thinking about answering if I haven't already realized it while planning.

Thanks in advance!

"The torrent crashed and heaved, attacking the flow wall. Netra was forced to watch, incapable of acting. She wanted to smash it, reaching out with her mind, tearing it down stone by stone. She imagined the water rushing over her and the village behind her. It would be quick.
Instead, she stood silent, smiling. Smiling of all things, Netra hated Voice’s sense of humor. She wished the demon would have left her as a vegetable. The wall was complete, the water could only struggle.
I hate you, she wanted to scream, but Voice only pushed a lock of her hair out of her eyes and turned her to see the homes that were saved from the crushing waters."

Posted by Pyre Dynasty (Member # 1947) on :

I'd want to read on, but it's hard to know which pronouns belong to Voice or Netra.

Ex. "but Voice only pushed a lock of hair out of her eyes and turned her" I understand after reading it a few times that all of the hers were Netra but I originally saw Voice pushing the hair out of her own eyes. (that reminds me--having a lock of hair in your eyes hurts, perhaps you meant out from in front of her eyes.)

Posted by wbriggs (Member # 2267) on :

I'm confused. I think it wouldn't take much to unconfuse me.

"The torrent crashed and heaved, attacking the flow wall [WHAT'S A FLOW WALL?]. Netra was forced [BY THE DEMON THAT POSSESSED HER, WHICH SHE CALLED "VOICE"] to watch, incapable of acting. She wanted to smash it, reaching out with her mind, tearing it down stone by stone. She imagined the water rushing over her and the village behind her. It would be quick. [SHE DIDN'T WANT HER PEOPLE TO DIE, BUT AT LEAST IT WOUDL BE QUICK or SHE WAS EAGER TO SEE THEM ALL DIE, BECAUSE THEY SAID HER SHOES WERE UGLY, AND IF THE WALL BROKE SHE COULD SEE IT HAPPEN or whatever the significance of this image might be]

Instead, she stood silent, smiling. Smiling of all things, Netra hated Voice’s sense of humor [I DON'T FOLLOW -- WHAT WAS VOICE'S JOKE?]. She wished the demon [HAD] left her as a vegetable. The wall was complete, the water could only struggle. [I DON'T FOLLOW. WHY IS THE WALL COMPLETE? DOES SHE *REALLY* WANT EVERYONE TO DROWN?]

I hate you, she wanted to scream, but Voice only [FORCED HER TO PUSH] a lock of her hair out of her eyes and turned her to see the homes that were saved from the crushing waters."

Posted by Chris V (Member # 3936) on :

I think one of you might have caught what I was trying to convey while the other didn't. I'm not going to say WHAT I'm trying to describe, so please consider the original requests for feedback, and also read this rewrite. I'm hoping others can try to explain what they think I'm trying to describe (including those who have already posted if you'd be so kind

). I only changed it slightly, but I hope by the end of the 13 lines you'll understand what I was aiming for

"The torrent crashed and heaved, attacking the flow wall. The wall curbed its power, controlling it. Netra was forced to watch, incapable of acting. She wanted to smash it, reaching out with her mind, tearing it down stone by stone. She imagined the water rushing over her and the village behind her. If only it would be quick.
Instead, she stood silent, smiling. Smiling of all things, Netra hated Voice’s sense of humor. She wished the demon would have left her as a mere vegetable. The wall was complete, the water could only struggle.
I hate you, she wanted to scream, but Voice only pushed a lock of hair away from its eyes, Netra’s eyes, and turned her to see the homes that were saved from the crushing waters."

Posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (Member # 59) on :

I don't remember setting Fragments and Feedback up for guessing games.

Posted by Chris V (Member # 3936) on :

maybe not, but since I can't tell an editor what I'm TRYING to do, I can't really do that here as far as I understand it. Part of what I'm looking for is feedback to the clarity of the writing. So far I've found this very helpful, but at the same time if all was equal and I just blurted out what I was trying to describe I wouldn't really get the same feedback. I'd actually love to explain every little bit of it here but that would defeat the purpose as I understand it. Sorry If I misinterpreted.

Posted by sojoyful (Member # 2997) on :

quote:
maybe not, but since I can't tell an editor what I'm TRYING to do, I can't really do that here as far as I understand it.

Actually, you CAN tell an editor, and you CAN tell us. How do you do that? By making the passage more clear in the places where we get confused. That way, we will know exactly what you want us to know.

quote:
Part of what I'm looking for is feedback to the clarity of the writing.

I'd say you got it. What this feedback is saying is there is not much clarity. Wbriggs even went to the trouble of showing you exactly which points of the piece were confusing. I agree with what he and others have pointed out. I was confused as well.

There's a fine balance between telling too much and not telling enough. Telling too little guarantees that the reader will be confused, get frustrated, and put the book down. You don't want that. And we don't want that to happen either, which is why we're showing you where we are confused.

[This message has been edited by sojoyful (edited September 27, 2006).]

Posted by Elan (Member # 2442) on :

Suggested reading:

Just tell me
http://www.hatrack.com/forums/writers/forum/Forum1/HTML/002716.html

Also, when you tell me "I'm not overly concerned with spelling mistakes at this stage" it tells me you are going to be lax with your grammar as well. Since a written story's very existence depends on words, a statement like that leaves me predisposed to think other things, like clarity, will also be in short supply. Writing is a craft. A painter doesn't say, "Oh, I'm not worried about THOSE brush strokes." A musician doesn't say "I'm not concerned about THOSE notes." Your manuscript must work together as a whole.

That's about all I can add to what sojoyful and the others have already told you. Ambiguity is not your friend, particularly in the first 13. I find this story confusing because there is too much you aren't telling us that we need to know.

Posted by Chris V (Member # 3936) on :

Precisely my point. I rewrote it to try and clarify it without outright telling you what to say. As far as I understand that's what I was supposed to do. I'm sorry to sound defensive but generally one line replies, even from an administrator tend to be unhelpful.

I posted a rewrite looking for some feedback as an attempt to address the issues brought up by those who commented earlier. I'd very much appreciate it if others would also try to help with the areas I highlighted in both the first and 4th posts instead of replying with one line comments or other off-topic material. I do appreciate the adressing of my confusion about the forum use though.

In that spirit, here are some of the reasons why I'm interested in those specific areas.

Sooo, in the rewrite I've tried to address a few specific things, mostly using briggs' post as a guide to where specific unintentional questions stemmed.

The first change was to add some elaboration to what a "flow wall" was without getting very detailed. Hopefully I've supplied enough information to remove distracting questions about it since that wasn't an intended area of interest.

Second, I tried to clarify the difference between Voice and Netra and I'm hoping that solving that may have clarified some of briggs' other questions since some showed he was leaving my intended realm of possibilities. I'm also hoping the change helps explain their relationship a bit more than it did before.

I am really finding this very useful ( the confusion in person for example helped me nail down and stick to what I think is a more clear method of differentiating Netra and Voice throughtout the rest of what I've written so far. I am very thankful that was pointed out at this point.)

Thanks again.

And since I got another reply while posting:

"Also, when you tell me "I'm not overly concerned with spelling mistakes at this stage" it tells me you are going to be lax with your grammar as well. Since a written story's very existence depends on words, a statement like that leaves me predisposed to think other things, like clarity, will also be in short supply. Writing is a craft. A painter doesn't say, "Oh, I'm not worried about THOSE brush strokes." A musician doesn't say "I'm not concerned about THOSE notes." Your manuscript must work together as a whole."

I understand your analogy, but I can also liken my goal at this point to a sketch artist asking about the strength of a thumbnail pose. In that case the artist really DOESN'T care about the lines themselves, but rather the meaning of the pose, the placement of negative space and line of action. Those will be reworked easily in further interations while the pose itself becomes very difficult to modify once those lines are cleaner.

At this point spelling and grammar mistakes are very fluid in my opinion, while I am extremely concerned about other areas, especially as I'm trying to understand those areas and apply your comments more broadly.

[This message has been edited by Chris V (edited September 27, 2006).]

Posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (Member # 59) on :

My one-line comment was in response to

quote:
I'm hoping others can try to explain what they think I'm trying to describe

which sounded to me as if you were playing guessing games with the critiquers here.

If you are asking people to tell you where you are not being clear, that's one thing. But to say

quote:
I think one of you might have caught what I was trying to convey while the other didn't

without saying which one, and then to say

quote:
I'm not going to say WHAT I'm trying to describe

is so uncooperative and unhelpful on your part that you might as well be playing guessing games.

Posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (Member # 59) on :

Have you read the topic on making use of the Fragment and Feedback area

http://www.hatrack.com/forums/writers/forum/Forum6/HTML/000002.html

in the Please Read Here First area? There's a post about letting people know what kind of feedback you want that I just put up the other day.

Posted by Chris V (Member # 3936) on :

Actually I have read it, that's where I got the impression that I was not to explain anything about what I post. I've also read several posts in this forum where people did try to explain themselves and got shot at for it.

I am sorry that my wording was interpreted as unhelpful though. I was trying to be friendly while transitioning to the rewrite.

Posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (Member # 59) on :

Maybe I'm not being very clear either.

Posted by wbriggs (Member # 2267) on :

Chris, your rewrite clears up "flow wall" for me, and also Netra's attitude toward the disaster -- very nicely.

It's still work to figure out what's happening in the other things I was confused about. I suggest you clear those up as well. The first post in http://www.hatrack.com/forums/writers/forum/Forum1/HTML/002662.html shows something that I think would work -- that is, rearranging it so that we have no delay in figuring out what anything you say, means.

Regarding the discussion, you're probably best advised to go with what Hatrackers say are the only 2 useful ways to respond to critiques: "Thank you" or "Could you please clarify what you mean by ________?" I understand where you're coming from, but apparently something in this discussion isn't working, and those 2 responses seem to say everything that needs to be said IMJ.

Posted by sojoyful (Member # 2997) on :

Chris V, I can see where your confusion is coming from. Maybe I can help clarify: When we ask questions or say "Tell us," we aren't expecting to actually receive an answer, because of that whole 2 responses thing wbriggs mentioned. What we are really saying is "when you revise this text, incorporate the answers to these questions so the passage will be more clear to the reader". We are asking for this information to be given to us by the text, not you directly talking to us. I hope that helps clear up the confusion.

(Aside - Kathleen, is that clarification anywhere in the Please Read Here First threads? It seems to be a point that comes up again and again, sometimes with unhappy results. As Chris V put it, they feel as if they are being "shot at" when they aren't, and they don't know why.)

As for spelling and grammar, these are not things one leaves to more polished drafts. Proper grammar is the foundation of the English language. And in the era of word processors and dictionary.com, no one will convince me that spellchecking can wait until later. We all make mistakes, and we all relax the rules of grammar when we talk (or email, etc.), but to state outright that they aren't important "at this stage" shows that you don't take your writing seriously as a craft. That makes it hard for us to take it seriously either.

As for your piece itself, I think the rewrite is an improvement. Things are clearer now than they were before, but they aren't yet clear enough for me. I'm able to see the observable facts and hear some of Netra's feelings, but I don't understand what's going on or why she feels that way or what it means to her in the larger scheme of things. It sounds like you have an interesting idea going here, and I encourage you to keep at it.

Posted by Chris V (Member # 3936) on :

Thank you :P

And as a sub curiousity, regards to directing people to areas I'm looking for help. I think I misexpressed myself a little when I said "I don't care about spelling at this stage" Seeing how some are expanding that to be a general lax about spelling grammar or lack of pride in my work. I think I might have better expressed it originally in that I was trying to express that I wasn't specifically asking for spelling feedback. I've noticed many posts are devoted to lengthly nit picking of small spelling mistakes. Now what I'm not suggesting is that should a spelling (or grammar) mistake affect the piece so far as to inhibit comprehension or clarity (or any other area I specifically asked for help on). I'm also not saying that I'd refuse spelling or grammar feedback, but rather I was trying to direct reading attention to specific areas.

I'm fairly certain I read something about defining what kind of feedback I was looking for in those "read first" posts. Instead maybe I should just leave the door wide open in the future so as to avoid lengthy confusion.

This is just a little joke, but all this talk and confusion almost makes me wish there was a form I could fill out to submit in this forum and one for replies. You know something like.

Select areas of most feedback interest:
[ ] Spelling
[ ] Grammar
[ ] Content
[ ] Clarity
[ ] Hook Success
[ ] Other (please specify) _______________

Feedback form:
Select response:
[ ] Thank you!
[ ] Could you please clarify what you mean by __________(please specify).
[ ] Other (please attach to message)

Posted by kings_falcon (Member # 3261) on :

I'm still confused.

Is the Voice/demon inside her?

Is the Voice the demon?

Is it controlling her?

If so, I need to have this information told to me right up front and very clearly. I can wait on why she wants to destroy the village for a bit but I can't wait for an explination on the "split" personality.

Clearly, the Voice is a large part of your story but I am at a loss to understand exactly what it is and why she's powerless to stop it. I wouldn't continue reading a story that has me this confused about a major plot element.

I know you are trying to show and not tell but a bit of telling (maybe one line) may be in order to explain the interrelationship between the entities we meet in the first few lines.

Hope it helps.

Posted by Chris V (Member # 3936) on :

Feedback form:
Select response:
[x] Thank you!
[ ] Could you please clarify what you mean by __________(please specify).
[ ] Other (please attach to message)

(seriously though, thanks for answering all my questions kings_falcon )