Hatrack River Writers Workshop: fantasy hook

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Posted by JBear (Member # 3463) on :

The following is a hook for the prologue of a fantasy novel--I'm looking for some criticism. I would be grateful if someone might be interested in reading the entire prologue and make comments as well. Thanks.

They said that it was black as midnight in the dungeons of Ra, thought the Seer, but it didn’t matter much to him. His old blind eyes always saw darkness. He massaged the places where the chains rubbed his arms raw and wanted something to take the pain away, though he knew it would never come.
The way of truth was always more difficult than a lie. He wasn’t sure how long they had imprisoned him for his prophecies, but it had certainly taught him about the meaning of true pain. Better pain than living a lie, though.
He smiled at the irony of his existence. At first, the Hudaios had called him ‘the Seer,’ and then, when he saw what they didn't want to hear, a blind fool. He had seen the truth, pronounced judgment on the people of his day, and brought evil

[This message has been edited by First Assistant (edited June 01, 2006).]

Posted by Jesse D (Member # 3241) on :

First complaint: get rid of the phrase "black as midnight."

Second: The phrase "saw what they didn't want to hear" makes no sense. One can't hear sights. "Saw what they didn't want to see" sounds better.

Other than that, good beginning. If I were into Egyptian mythology, I'd be intrigued enough to keep reading.

Posted by arriki (Member # 3079) on :

This isn’t working – for me. You have some good ideas, but they don’t seem to coalesce into any one thing. You have the dungeon. The seer’s pain. Truth versus the lie. Bringing empires to their knees.

What are you trying to bring out here? That this seer has been powerful (and right) in the past and now is imprisoned because he is truthful no matter how inconvenient or hurtful the truth may be?

Could you, perhaps, work it round that last idea? He was more than some blind old beggar. That statement is full of possibilities. It is a thesis statement that can be enlarged upon easily.

He was more than some blind old beggar. He had seen the truth and brought an evil empire to its knees. However, he hated the Lie and continued telling people the truths they didn’t want to hear. That’s how he came to be here in Ra’s dungeon with (descriptors that a blind man would notice). He massaged his wrists where the chains rubbed his skin raw. (End with some concluding statement that will segue into whatever comes next. A scene, I sort of hope.)

[This message has been edited by arriki (edited May 31, 2006).]

Posted by Susannaj4 (Member # 3189) on :

They said that it was black as midnight in the dungeons of Ra, thought the Seer,

There's something wrong with this--it either is black as midnight or it isn't, but he's thinking about what they said or he was thinking he didn't care?

Posted by Joat (Member # 3391) on :

I have some difficulty with a prisoner rotting in a dungeon, skin rubbed raw by manacles, who nevertheless smiles at the irony of his existence. Granted that this is fantasy; however, what makes fantasy believable and readable is sufficient realism for the reader to accept the fantastic elements. As a prophet speaking hard truths, maybe he can avoid bitterness in the dungeon; I doubt he'd smile much, though. Maybe, instead, something like "he might have smiled through the pain if...".

Posted by tchernabyelo (Member # 2651) on :

I can cope with the smile, so long as it's rueful. To some extent, it will depend how long he's been there. Long enough to have become accustomed to his situation, but not so long that all hope and humanity has been worn away, and he might be able to manage it.

I found the opening interesting, but a little dense. We start with an unnecessary and unreferenced "they"; it would work at least as well to say "It was said to be as black as midnight..." or something of the sort. And "black as midnight" might not be appropriate if this is ancient Egypt; with cloudless skies much of the time, and no light pollution to speak of, the night sky would have been awash with stars. There are, in fact, very few "black as..." similes that haven't been overused.

Hudaios was awkward; I'm assuming from context it's plural (more than one Hudaio), but it read to me like a greek word (most masculine gender nouns end in -os; andros, potamos, logos...).

The other question I have is... why are we starting the story here? He's in chains, he has been for some time. Is something about to happen to change his situation? If so, should you start with the change (his cell door opening?); otherwise, there's little to make me think I want to read on. I suppose the other possibility is that this is a framing device - we're going to find out how he got here - but it seems to me that the opening point for that would be better at the moment he's thrown into prison, not after the indeterminate time he's been there already...

Posted by JBear (Member # 3463) on :

Thanks for the comments. The following is a re-written hook from a whole different angle. Another question I have--the name of the character that Ra, that appears later, is, of course, like the name fo the Egyptian God Ra. This is not Egyptian mythology, however, this becomes obvious pretty quickly. Is that distracting? If so, I could change the spelling. Thanks.

The Seer heard the thud of boots on the stone corridor that led to his cold cell. It must be mealtime, he thought.

The boots came to a stop right outside the bars of his cell. There were two of them. Why were there two? Usually only one person pushed the bowl of yellow gruel through the iron bars. He could hear their conversation.

“It’s so cold down here,” said the first.

“By God!” replied the second, “The stench!” Long ago the Seer had become desensitized to the smell of his dark cell. “This is the last time I do this. I’ll never come to the dungeons again. All of this just to fetch some old man.”

“You’ll do what you’re told.”

The Seer heard keys jingling. The rusted metal door to his cell

[This message has been edited by First Assistant (edited June 01, 2006).]

Posted by oliverhouse (Member # 3432) on :

I like this one better than the first. There's already a sense of action, and we haven't learned much less than we did with the first one. A very good revision.

Personally, I wouldn't use "Ra".

Regards,
Oliver

Posted by Mystic (Member # 2673) on :

Howdy,
The second opening is much, much better than the other opening. I really was able to get into the second one. Maybe a little more clarity on a few points, but that is usually the biggest limitation of the 13 lines. Keep up the good work and when this is done, I would love to be able to give it a read.

Posted by JBear (Member # 3463) on :

Could you be specific as to what points you would clarify? I would appreciate if you wander back to your post and have a moment. Thanks.

Posted by Pyre Dynasty (Member # 1947) on :

I'd avoid Ra unless you are actually talking about the god, (or someone named after the god) I was thrown off by your first sentence about darkness in the prison of the sun god. But you can mutate the name untill it suits you. Like Ra-tho Kan. I like both of them but the second one has more action.

Posted by Novice (Member # 3379) on :

I'd cut out, " 'You'll do what you're told.' " It sounds cliched and doesn't seem important to the plot.

"How many years had Ra kept him down here for his prophecies?" If I didn't have the benefit of the first fragment, I'd think Ra was continuing to consult the Seer, keeping him chained in order to always have him nearby. If he is chained as punishment for an earlier prophecy, you should say so.

I like the second fragment much better than the first. I really like the last sentence, it carries my interest forward and would keep me reading.

Posted by Woodie (Member # 3346) on :

I agree with Novice on both points. Also, I'm guessing that the Seer is still blind, if so he's not going to know that the gruel is yellow--if you used a feeling word here, like the slimy gruel or whatever, I think it would be more powerful.

Posted by Survivor (Member # 213) on :

Hmm...I think that a lot of the issues we're trying to address can't really be answered without reading more. I will weigh in on a couple of points, though.

Lose "Ra", change the spelling or whatever. Nobody is going to not think of Ra the Egyptian god of the sun, and if that's not what you want, then don't use such a commonly known name.

The second version seems a little better than the first, more active, less confusing, better plausibility. On the other hand, it suffers from a lack of POV (if we put aside the severe clarity problems with the first version), both positive POV elements like internal action and negative elements like his blindness.

How long is the prologue?

Posted by JBear (Member # 3463) on :

Thanks everyone for your timely comments. My prologue is probably between 4 to 6 pages once a rewrite it to incorporate the revised hook and revise the prologue. I think the point of view problem has to do with the fact that a blind man knows his food is yellow (I should have proofread it more than once). The other comments were right on the mark as well. The following is a re-written hook with some small changes. More criticisms are welcome. (and for now, we'll go with Ra, but in the future, of course, I'll change the name.)

The Seer heard the thud of boots on the stone corridor that led to his cold cell. It must be mealtime, He thought.

The boots came to a stop right outside the bars of his cell. There were two of them. Why were there two? Usually only one person pushed the bowl of tasteless gruel through the iron bars. He could hear their conversation.

“It’s so cold down here,” said the first.

“Nothing’s worse than the bowels of Ra’s dungeon.”

The Seer heard keys jingling. The rusted metal door to his

[This message has been edited by First Assistant (edited June 03, 2006).]

Posted by hoptoad (Member # 2145) on :

Hey JBear,

I second the comments on not using the name Ra in a fantasy setting unless it is in Egypt, it is distracting to me.

this line:

quote:

The boots came to a stop right outside the bars of his cell. There were two of them. Why were there two?

Made me smile. Was he expecting a one legged man?

Easy to fix.
Oh BTW the line:

quote:
This is the last time I do this. I’ll never come to the dungeons again.

Feels like it should be: This is the last time I do this. I'm never coming down here again. More immediate.

[This message has been edited by hoptoad (edited June 02, 2006).]

Posted by Survivor (Member # 213) on :

One thing I've been debating whether to mention, and will definitely mention when I critique this, you better have a dang good reason for this guy to self identify as "The Seer" rather than by any sort of name.

Other than that, it seems the narrative flow is pretty well established. I'll try it.

Posted by JBear (Member # 3463) on :

Yes. I thought that this might be a risk, however, there's a good reason for it. Seer, of course, is another way to say prophet. In many ancient languages, prophet/seer is interchangeable (and also in my fantasy world). I do not call the character by his real name because he represents something more broad than himself (another words, if it feels a little cliche or familiar, it might be reaching towards what I'm attempting). It also brings out something an important point in the novel. The Seer is blind, but ironically, he's the only one who sees the truth for what it really is. This highlights the hard-headedness of his people. I think the risk of doing this in the prologue is somewhat minimized, though, by the fact that this character will not appear in the novel again, but the events that take place in this scene (and to him) will be important to its characters. I realize that some writers or readers might view this type of sybolism/typology in a negative way, and that its hard to do successfully. What do you all think? More comments would be appreciated. Thanks for the great criticisms. I should be done with a revised prologue in a few days.

Posted by Sara Genge (Member # 3468) on :

Doesn't anybody feel that a blind prophet is cliché?
Also, why "cold cell", when the other guys talk they already say it's cold, no need to mention it.
Otherwise very interesting, let me read the rest (if you want)

Posted by wbriggs (Member # 2267) on :

Here are my thoughts:

*It's often better to avoid a prologue. If this character won't show up again . . . what if you blended the important aspect of the character into another one? Just a thought
*I liked the first version (except, as others noted, the idea that MC would smile while he's contemplating his pain)
*I'd definitely not use "Ra" if it's not Egypt
*"black as a tomb"? At least from the inside
*I didn't like version 2 as well, because I don't know enough about the Seer. What if you let version 2 follow immediately on version 1? Then we'd know him, and I could care more about the action in version 2.
*(Passionately) About naming him "the Seer" so he can represent a broader swath: from OSC, and I'd agree, the way you get a character to represent a broader swath isn't to be vaguer -- it's to be more specific. I can't relate to (say) a nameless individual who feels lonely and inadequate nearly as well as I could to (say) an Irish girl named Moira who's nervous about having too many freckles and misses her sister in the convent -- even though I'm not Irish, not a girl, don't have a sister in a convent, and I like my freckles just fine.

YOu can still have all that powerful symbolism if your Seer has a name, a family, a history, and lots of other details: he'll still be blind and persecuted. Anyway, that's my suggestion.

Posted by Pyre Dynasty (Member # 1947) on :

You don't call him by his real name but you aren't writing this. (well you are but as the pov character he is telling this story.)I wouldn't trust a seer who called himself seer, but I like the blind prophet idea. Personally if I got through this prologue and then the story turned out to be about someone else I'd be angry, I'd be asking where my blind prophet is. Unless you kill him of course. Does this really have to be out front?

And my opinion on choosing characters or things merely for their symbolic value: It's too much work for a diminished return. If your sitting there thinking up great symbols for your story that is time and energy you could have spent thinking up great thing to happen in the story. The symbols will be there anyway, it is natural partucularly if you are mining a mythology.

Posted by Silver3 (Member # 2174) on :

Just chiming in on the symbolism, although I'm not sure we need any more hammer-blows...

Avoid.

Characters who are "supposed" to represent a broad swathe end up being walking clichés, and preachy walking clichés at that. I agree with wbriggs on that: give us the Seer's name and personal history, unless you are specifically writing allegory in which everybody represents anthropomorphized concepts (but be warned that if you are, this opens a whole new can of worms).

Although, for what it's worth, I can see him smile, in a sort of wry, mirthless way, if he's been there long.

[This message has been edited by Silver3 (edited June 06, 2006).]