Hatrack River Writers Workshop: watch the walls instead

This is topic watch the walls instead in forum Fragments and Feedback for Short Works at Hatrack River Writers Workshop.

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Posted by EmilyAsAlways (Member # 3323) on :

these are the first 13 lines of my novel (I am assuming that is 13 lines from a times new roman typed format). if anyone would like to read the first chapter, i'd love to email it along--and I'll happily look over and comment on anything you care to send (short story or otherwise).

Prague, Czech Republic, 2005. I am a 26 year old man, American, and I live in a nunnery in Prague. Yes, a nunnery-with acutal nuns!-and the most amazing bit of this situation is that the nuns do not realize what an ungrateful wretch I am. Just this morning, I skulked down the corridor to the kitchen and stole a bowl of grapes left over from the nuns' breakfast. They were the sort of grapes sold at the outdoor market here, dusky-black and fat, too pretty to eat. I spent the better part of this morning in my little room, spitting grape corpses into a mug. I wanted those grapes to EXPLODE against my palette; I thought the pop would make me feel better. I pushed hard, again and again, tongue aching a little, but each grape only...mooshed. Grapes don't pop--they only split their skins, reluctantly. And so

[This message has been edited by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (edited March 28, 2006).]

Posted by Elan (Member # 2442) on :

Times Roman won't work for the first 13. You measure it with 1" margins all around, 12 point Courier type. Go back and read the READ HERE FIRST forum for information on how (and why) to comply with the 13 line rule.

Sadly, I don't find anything to hook me in. So, he's eating grapes. So what? As a reader, I don't care any about how the grape mooshes in his mouth. I want to know why he's living in a nunnery. Focus your first 13 on the meat of the story, not the fruit.

[This message has been edited by Elan (edited March 28, 2006).]

Posted by Choccido (Member # 3299) on :

Uh... Hmm... Is that a diary entry? 'Cause it sure sounds like it. Now, that's not a bad thing, but I don't really get why a man is in a nunnery... Also, I think the parts when you're talking about the grapes, is a little too detailed. Way too detailed. Especially if you're talking about how his day went.

Posted by EmilyAsAlways (Member # 3323) on :

I'm working on changing the font, but my laptop is ancient and so far it isn't cooperating. If I can't figure out how to change the font, I'll delete the topic tomorrow (because I feel bad about making people read it in the wrong format)

Thank you so much for commenting--it is very, very helpful!

No, it isn't a diary entry. I'm a girl, not a man, and I've never lived in a nunnery, although I have spent the past year in Eastern Europe and I know Prague well.

Well, the rest of the book is devoted to explaining how he got there and why. I wanted to do something with an unbalanced character. (in the first sentence of the Catcher in the Rye, Holden Caulfiend hints at the "madman stuff" that happened to him before he had to come to "this place"--a mental hospital, but he is too unbalanced to realize that "this place" is the most important thing to the audience, and the reader doesn't even get to know what sort of place Holden is in until later in the novel). Holden thinks ducks on a pond in the winter are more important, but after reading a hundred or so pages of what Holden considers important, we have a good idea of Holden's state of mind without being told the logistics of his current setting. But I'm no Salingar, and if 2 people say it doesn't work, then it doesn't, so I'll take another look at the first paragraph. It took about two hundred pages of the novel to explain why he is there and how he got there, so I'm not sure how I can put that into the first paragraph. Do you think that the structure of a novel is different from that of a short story in this way? (because my biggest fear is that I won't be able to see my own mistakes--thank you so much for your input!)

Posted by Christine (Member # 1646) on :

Go ahead and send me the first chapter.

Interesting character you have here. I'll reserve judgment on the rest until I read the entire chapter.

Posted by Christine (Member # 1646) on :

Emily -- don't delete the topic. 13 lines in Times New Roman is close enough...Kathleen doesn't tend to care unless there's pretty obviously too much up there. I think the guidelines was just because so many people were asking for something specific, but 13 lines in Times New Roman will be close enough.

[This message has been edited by Christine (edited March 28, 2006).]

Posted by wbriggs (Member # 2267) on :

I think the "diary entry" question meant, are you writing this story as though it were diary entries.

Anyway.

I'll want to know soon why he's there.

Nits: a nunnery, with actual nuns -- not that surprising; they do still exist. Maybe it's surprising in Prague.

spitting grape corpses -- I'm not sure what he's spitting. Hulls? Entire grapes?

Posted by Wusong101 (Member # 3320) on :

You made the comment that this is for a novel, as opposed ot a short story. It is a very valid point, but remember that even more so with a novel, the reader wants a good reason why they should devote the time to your novel. I can't tell you how many novels I abandoned after the first few paragraphs and finally, relectantly and many years later, picked the book back up and found the novel to be pretty good after all. The begining is critical.
The whole nunery thing and how hw came to live there, that is puzzling. Everything else... well I want to know about how he came to be at the nunery.
You said that how he got to be at the nunery is a large part of your story. Give us some foreshadowing, some hints right at the begining. Make me want to know more-- then, after you have me sufficiently hooked-- you can throw in something about the grapes.

If you need another reader for the first chapter, send it along to me, I'd be delighted.

Posted by Ico (Member # 3303) on :

You can send along the first chapter to me, if you like. I'm a bit behind on things at the moment, and I probably can't get to it before next week; but if you don't mind the wait I'll give it a read.

Posted by tchernabyelo (Member # 2651) on :

There's a huge contrast between the "I'm a 26-year-old American man living in a nunnery in Prague" and then the detail of the grape-eating. Now that could be an attempt to indicate this guy's instability, but there isn't enough space here to be sure of that. I'd actually start with him eating grapes that he's stealing from the nuns, and let us find out who he is and how he got there as the story unfolds.

Check your spelling - you mean "palate", not "palette".

If you start this fragment with "This morning, I skulked down the corridor..." then it's much "hookier", for me, although I have to admit I will then be very surprised to learn the narrator is a 26-year-old man, so you probably need to establish that within the first few paragraphsm, at the very least.

Posted by Aalanya (Member # 3263) on :

Your third sentence (Yes, a nunnery-with acutal nuns!-and the most amazing bit of this situation is that the nuns do not realize what an ungrateful wretch I am) has a tone that is inconsistent with the rest of the writing. The whole first bit of it is unnecessary, so clear out everything up to "actual nuns!" Your character seems a bit nonchalant in the rest of the paragraph, but the word "amazing" destroys that image here, so maybe substitute that word too. And last, "ungrateful wretch" sounds a bit cliche and melodramatic. Find some way of rewording it.

Posted by Christine (Member # 1646) on :

I disagree.

To me, this feels like a story about a moocher who knows just what he is and doesn't care. Is, in fact, strangely proud of it.

Also, how is "ungrateful wrtech" a cliche? I don't see it...

Posted by Survivor (Member # 213) on :

Heh heh, he's trying to pop grapes with his tongue.

This opening looks okay to me. It expresses that the narrator is a bit of a dolt in several ways ("actual nuns!" "stole...left over from breakfast" "tongue aching...grapes don't pop"), but he's kind of fun. Part of that is because he obviously isn't that kind of dull dolt that doesn't realize he's a dolt. Part of it is because the ways in which he is a dolt are intrinsically funny. Like spitting out the mooshed grapes into a mug rather than eating them...that's so maliciously two-year oldish.

From what you say, the question "How did this guy get into the nunnery?" is the focus of your novel. If that's the case, then it's a good sign that everybody wants to know the story behind it. The main problem here is that nobody likes to commit to novels, but I'll read a chapter if you like.

Posted by Aalanya (Member # 3263) on :

quote:
To me, this feels like a story about a moocher who knows just what he is and doesn't care. Is, in fact, strangely proud of it.

Yes, I think you're right, except instead of "moocher" I would say "man who is holding the world sceptically at an arm's distance, getting what he can from it without becoming involved and yet not understanding that this is making him lonely."

Now that's just my interpretation from these few lines. I could be totally off the mark. But... if I'm right then I think that the sentence I pointed out has too much excitement.

I get the feeling that he is trying to pop the grapes in order to rouse himself from the apathy he is feeling, and it isn't working for him. But if he's apathetic, then why is he exclaiming about nuns and how he's pulling the wool over their eyes?

As I said, there's every possibility that I could be completely wrong in my interpretation. If that is the case, then you are probably right.

quote:
Also, how is "ungrateful wretch" a cliche? I don't see it...

I've just heard the words "ungrateful wretch" strung together too many times, especially in religious context. It seems like an overused phrase to me.

***

As I should have said when I posted earlier, I do really like this beginning. It's very promising. I was in a bit of a rush earlier, but I should have taken a moment to compliment as well as critique.

Posted by Gingivere (Member # 1936) on :

This opening has me intrigued. Like others, I'm eager to find out how this American in his mid-twenties wound up in a nunnery in Prague. I have very little experience critiquing, but I'll give it a shot if you want to send along your first chapter.

Posted by zipperhead409 (Member # 3268) on :

Emily, don't listen to these guys

I've noticed that pretty all their opinions reflect the same sentiment, which isn't always the best for evaluation.

I thought your first 13 lines were very interesting and would love to read more.

As for the grapes being unimportant, it's the first 13 lines of the story, re*****.

Posted by apeiron (Member # 2565) on :

I second Survivor. Interesting MC. The bit about the grapes, along with his narrative style, says a lot about him. I'd keep reading.

Posted by wbriggs (Member # 2267) on :

We're all over the board here, discussing what's up with the story rather than what's confusing . . . good! It sounds like you've got a kicker of a character here!

Posted by kings_falcon (Member # 3261) on :

Emily,

You aren't getting a whole lot of technical comments which is good. I liked the beginning and would read more about him. I think you convey very clearly that the MC is "quirky" at best. I'd read just to see how that developed more than why he's in a nunnery. Good job!

Posted by kings_falcon (Member # 3261) on :

Oh, yes, you can send me the chaper too - kings_falcon@yahoo.com

Posted by Survivor (Member # 213) on :

I should have mentioned this, but as long as he's telling us the date, location, and his personal stats, he might as well mention his name.

Posted by giggles (Member # 3279) on :

Second sentence: "I am a 26 year old man." doesn't work for me. Already I'm seperated from the story -- being told it rather than being apart of it. Unfortunately, that kind of narrative carries through most of the paragraph. You break away from it to talk about grapes, but still I have no association with the character.

Chrissie