Hatrack River Writers Workshop: Soho -- a comparison between 1st and 3rd

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Posted by HSO (Member # 2056) on :

I humbly ask for a comparison between these two passages... Same story, but one is in 1st and the other is in 3rd person. Which is more engaging to you as a reader? Please note, I'm not asking for you to read and critique the entire story (because it isn't finished), just these scenes as posted. Also, please help me understand why a particular version worked for you better than the other.

Cheers,

HSO

***
1st person
***

I tip the cabbie thirty Euros and step out into the seediest bit of Soho one block away from Julian’s flat. The first thing I notice, besides the electric-rickshaw drivers vying for customers, the hookers and pimps in doorways, and the smell of Thai curry, is a swarm of football fans spilling out from pubs all around. Their slumped shoulders and bitter tones suggest England has lost to Germany, which means I’ve made my bookie a few hundred richer.

Ignoring the cabbie’s comment about me being a cheap bastard, I head north on Dean Street, towards the Square. I’m careful to avoid eye contact with the human garbage--which is everyone. I’d much rather be sipping a pint in a quiet, North London pub than to muck about in this sleazy district and being here feels like an incurable disease seeping into my pores.

***
3rd person
***

After tipping the driver thirty Euros, Ash Porter reluctantly stepped out into the seediest bit of Soho. Ignoring the cabbie’s comments about him being a cheap bastard, he pushed his way through the human garbage, heading north on Dean Street toward the Square to find Julian's flat. Whatever that bastard wants, it better be important.

Sidestepping the buskers and homeless, Ash grimaced at the scene. Besides the electric rickshaw drivers vying for tourists, the hookers and their pimps in ramshackle doorways, and the thickly sweet coconut odor of Thai curry that pervades, a palpable bitterness could be felt among the swarm of football fans exiting from pubs all around; their sour tones suggesting that England has lost its match against Germany. Unhappily aware that he has made his bookie a few hundred richer tonight, he trudged on, head down and avoided eye-contact with the undesirables--or everyone.

[EDIT: that should help a bit... might have missed one or two tense issues--but you get the idea]

[This message has been edited by HSO (edited January 26, 2005).]

Posted by Tess (Member # 2199) on :

I’m interested in seeing how you deal with 1st versus 3d. I too have been rewriting like this, trying to get first-hand knowledge how each works. My only problem in making the comparison as posted is that your second paragraph changes tenses, from past in the first sentence to present in the rest.

Present tense isn’t used as often as past, so when you use it, you need to be aware of what you’re doing, because it stands out. It might be hard to maintain if this is a long piece. Most professionals and amateurs use third person limited, past tense.

I think you’re going to find that many of us at Hatrack are biased towards 3PL, past tense.

Just an observation from me, if it’s helpful: I’m finding 3PL, past tense, easier to use. You still have a sense of immediacy and penetration into your main character, both which are benefits of first person, but that little bit of distance gives your narrator room to maneuver, lets you inject a little more narration to help guide the reader’s impressions. The first person is tempting, especially for beginners like me, because we like pretending to be the main character, but it limits some ability to control the story. First person requires a strict adherence to the point of view character’s point of view, and narrator intrusions are more intrusive. Survivor and Dakota aptly pointed some of this out for me on a piece they critiqued for me not to long ago, and I’m beginning to now feel this in practice. Also, read OSC’s book “Characters and Viewpoint,” if you haven’t already. He says the same.

Hope I’m not getting too preachy here, and also hope my observations help. As it stands right now, I’d pick the first person paragraph over the third, because the problems with the third person bother me. A revision, however, could change that.

[This message has been edited by Tess (edited January 26, 2005).]

Posted by HSO (Member # 2056) on :

Thanks, Tess. I was aware of the tense issues after I had posted... just didn't bother correcting it... The 3rd person was typed on the fly without thought, just as an example. The 1st person is how the story is currently being written.

I'll fix the tense problem now so as to not jar any readers.

Posted by mikemunsil (Member # 2109) on :

My gut reaction to the two versions is that the 2nd is easier to read, and that the 1st makes it more real.

As a reader of the 1st version I am more impatient, wanting to get to the point, to find out what's going on, and why.

With reagrds to the 2nd version I am more patient and am more willing to go with the flow.

So, for me, my response to the 'person' is distinct, and my expectations of what you are going to provide are different more in when you provide them, than how.

Does that make sense at all?

Posted by HSO (Member # 2056) on :

Yes, Mike. It makes sense to me at least. Thanks.

For some reason, writing in first person in that tense is incredibly taxing, and I find myself naturally slipping into past tense, correcting it, and reminding myself to pay attention to what I'm doing.

Posted by Shi Magadan (Member # 2260) on :

Hmmm... Personally, I prefer the third person. The first person seems dumbed-down, everything is spelled out for me, which makes me not want to read it. As a reader, I like to feel clever, I enjoy those moments of, ahhhh... I see... Such moments are more difficult to create in first person than in third.

Statements like, "The first thing I notice..." are reminicent of grade school assignments like the one where we had to describe how to make a peanut butter and jelly sandwich in great detail.

Also, a 30 Euro gratuie is one hell of a tip (approximately 38 USD), no one would consider you a cheap bastard, well, depending on the length of the cab ride, I suppose.

Posted by Jefficus (Member # 272) on :

In my experience, 1st person narrative seldom works well as a direct translation from 3rd. What makes 1st person riveting to me, is its more immersive quality. And I've noticed that this works best for me (both as reader and author) is when the piece is more dialogue driven.

So, while you might get a lot of votes for your 3rd person version, it might not be due to the superiority of 3rd person in general. It might be that to get a fair assessment, you have to reconceive the story in 1st person, rather than just change the pronouns and verbs directly.

Jefficus

[This message has been edited by Jefficus (edited January 26, 2005).]

Posted by Daniel Thurot on :

I like the first-person perspective for this better. Although your second passage is a bit easier to read, I think that the first allows for your character to more aptly display the separation between his "class" and this undesirable district. It lets him portray his disgust at the various aspects of the slum where he has gone to, and I think that the mood is better sustained in this mode.

Posted by W. Rought (Member # 2186) on :

The first person is well writen BUT in todays world where TV and movies have become a popular media to tell a story the 3rd person POV is more appealing. This is proven by most of the responses here as many have picked 3rd POV. Although I am certian there are several that will argue that 1st is better, 3rd person POV will be more popular.

Posted by HSO (Member # 2056) on :

quote:
Also, a 30 Euro gratuie is one hell of a tip (approximately 38 USD), no one would consider you a cheap bastard, well, depending on the length of the cab ride, I suppose.

Setting is approx 40 years in the future... inflation, weak Euro, rude cabbie. In real life, London is very expensive.

Posted by Shi Magadan (Member # 2260) on :

In that case, wouldn't you expect him to wager more than "a few hundred" on a soccer match? (I assume it's soccer). If what he's lost to the bookie is the equavalent of $15 in today's money, who cares?

Posted by HSO (Member # 2056) on :

No, I wouldn't...

Posted by hoptoad (Member # 2145) on :

Hi
It is interesting that you get more of the character's thoughts, feelings and sensory perceptions in the third person version. Sure you get some in the first person too, but the second piece seems to take advantage of the inherent strengths of third person while the first piece does not take exploit first person's native strengths.

I would load-up on inner workings for the first one, include the sweetness of the curry, his reluctance to get out of the cab etc.

Also why did you choose a present tense in the first one and past tense in the second? It meant the second piece felt more authoritative/reliable.

[This message has been edited by hoptoad (edited January 26, 2005).]

Posted by HSO (Member # 2056) on :

I don't know, hoptoad... maybe part of the disparity is the time lapse between writing the 1st and writing the 3rd. Perhaps I've learned a "little small" something during the six months that have transpired. Or maybe not.

To answer your last question, I'm not sure. It was a gut feeling, then, to write the 1st person narrative in present tense. Having let the story sit half-finished and really wanting to get back to it (including a full rewrite), my gut tells me 3rd is the way to go. I now feel it gives me a little more freedom with the narrative, using adjectives or phrases that the character wouldn't use.

This is why I posted this here, to get a feel for how others felt about it. Because if I'm going to attack this story anew -- in between writing the fearsome novel idea -- I want to do it properly.

I felt this topic would be useful in this regard.

[This message has been edited by HSO (edited January 26, 2005).]

Posted by hoptoad (Member # 2145) on :

Your gut is probably right.

You know who does first person well though? Robert Louis Stevenson, like in the Beach at Falesa
The character's voice is really strong.

Posted by Dude (Member # 1957) on :

It is impossible to tell which version will work better with what you have posted. The decision to write a story in the first vs. the third person has to do with the story itself. First person is the right choice if the story is told from the perspective of a single protagonist, and you want the reader to see things from his perspective only. A good example is a detective story where the reader discovers clues as the detective does. If you don't want the reader to know about what's going on outside of your character's view point, use first person. My favorite example of this in a fantasy novel is Gene Wolfe's "Soldier of the Mist". The protagonist in this story is a soldier who has lost his memory. The story is told from his perspective as he tries to remember his past.
If you don't have a particular reason to write the story in the first person -- the third person is more common and acceptable.

Posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (Member # 59) on :

I wonder if your subconscious didn't want you to write the first-person version in present tense partly to overcome the fact that a first-person narrative in past tense implies that the narrator survived the story (which can take some of the tension out of the story).

Or, it could be that first person = immediacy = present tense in your own mind, whether it really does or not (I've heard arguments that it doesn't, even though you'd think it would).

Posted by Tess (Member # 2199) on :

I just finished reading a published short story in first person, present tense that worked wonderfully. Seemed strange to me at first, but it worked. Just goes to show you, anything goes if done well.

Posted by djvdakota (Member # 2002) on :

quote:
The 3rd person was typed on the fly without thought, just as an example. The 1st person is how the story is currently being written.

I read both examples and was particularly keen on the feel of the first person, until I saw this reply. Then I started wondering, was my response due to the fact that more time and/or thought had been put into the first example, therefore its superior quality influenced me?

<Shrug> Whatever. I still like the first better. I like the immediacy and the voice of the narrator. That sense of him and who he is and his attitudes are much diluted in the second example. I know him and, for some strange reason, can sympathize better with him when the story is told in his own voice.

Posted by ender39 (Member # 2222) on :

I like the 1st person perspective better. You capture much mor of the character's apprehension about where he is, and you do it in a very sparing way. Intimating a character's thoughts and reactions should be done sparingly, allowing the reader to relate more closely to the experience without having to decipher the codified, adjective-laden emoting of third person. However, there is a certain distinctiveness and palpability to some of the detail from the 3rd person version. Still, for my money, I would sooner continue with the 1st person story than the 3rd person...maybe because so much prose is 3rd person. (Maybe I've graded too many high school essays in my day.)

Posted by Shi Magadan (Member # 2260) on :

I'm really not a fan of 1st person, I get bored of it quickly. I'm doing this... and now I smell that... and now I see this...blah blah blah.

I think in order for it to work, you must have a very strong/unusual character, Dostoyevsky does it well in *Notes from the Underground*. But if the character is a regular Joe Shmoe, fully conscious, red blooded human, it doesn't work for me.

[This message has been edited by Shi Magadan (edited January 27, 2005).]

Posted by Survivor (Member # 213) on :

Notes from Underground is written in the form of a journal of sorts. In other words, the character is at his shabby little desk, writing. When something is described as happening somewhere else, he returns from each "scene" and writes about it in the past tense. It's a form of "artifical document" first person, where the text contains an implicit story of this narrative came to be written in first person.

Posted by Isaiah13 (Member # 2283) on :

I prefer the 1st person version, and I think it is because of just one sentence.

I'm careful to avoid eye contact with the human garbage--which is everyone.

Either he's sneering, or trying to keep himself from sneering (or so I imagine). Either way, it paints a vivid picture, in my mind at least.

Posted by rickfisher (Member # 1214) on :

I prefer the second version, but its more because of the tense than the person.

Posted by Ryan Brotman (Member # 2360) on :

I prefer the second version, not because I'm really particular to the POV, but because the order you present information.

In 3rd person your character is doing something - walking - and he notices his surroundings as he goes.

The 1st person makes it seem like your character paid for his cab and then took time out of his actions to catalog everything in meticulous detail, which unless your character is the uber-meticulous sort, or these details are uber-important, doesn't make sense to me.