This is topic Calling all Utahns who enter (or have won) Writers of the Future in forum Open Discussions About Writing at Hatrack River Writers Workshop.
Could I get a quick sound-off, from all the Utahns who either enter WOTF, or who have won WOTF and happen to post here? I am trying to get a quick census. Also, if you could mention whether or not you'll be attending Life, The Universe & Everything at BYU and/or CONduit, that would be helpful too.
Posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (Member # 59) on :
Entered, finalist published in volume 9, will be at LTUE and CONduit.
Posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (Member # 59) on :
Not all of the Utah WotF people are on Hatrack (in fact, probably few of them are). Some who aren't (so far as I know): M. Shayne Bell, Dave Wolverton, Virginia Baker, James Jordan (don't know where he is now), Susan Kroupa (no longer in Utah).
Posted by Brad R Torgersen (Member # 8211) on :
Thanks, Kathleen.
Posted by Owasm (Member # 8501) on :
I've entered the last three quarters of WotF.
I'm new to writing so I don't even know what LTUE is, but I know enough to have regretted missing CONduit.
Posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (Member # 59) on :
Life, the University and Everything is what they call the BYU (Brigham Young University, Provo, Utah) science fiction symposium (LTUE) which will be 11-13 February in 2010.
CONduit will be 28-30 May in 2010, so you even if you missed this year, you can go next.
Posted by johnbrown (Member # 1467) on :
Won a quarterly first prize, published in volume 13 under the name Bo Griffin (wince, what a dumb name). Will be at both.
[This message has been edited by johnbrown (edited December 17, 2009).]
Posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (Member # 59) on :
Eh. I think Bo Griffin is kind of cute--a sort of good-old-boy fantasy character (hmm--story trigger, anyone?).
Posted by Architectus (Member # 8809) on :
Interesting. I wonder how many LDS win WOTF compared to how many non LDS win.
Posted by EricJamesStone (Member # 1681) on :
I'll be at LTUE and CONduit.
As for the LDS winners percentage, there were about 300 winners in the first 25 years of the contest (not counting published finalists). LDS make up a bit under 2% of the US population, so proportionally that would be about 6 winners (ignoring the fact that some winners are from out of the US).
According to MormonSF.org, there have been 16 LDS winners, which is more than double the expected proportion.
[This message has been edited by EricJamesStone (edited January 02, 2010).]
Posted by tnwilz (Member # 4080) on :
He walks into the room and everyone stops and stares. "Sorry...., the door was open and I heard people talking. I was just... right, well you're in the middle of something, umm, I'm just going to go - back - out the door. Sorry," he says with a striking British accent. He turns towards door and takes a few steps but then turns back. "Actually I've been meaning to ask..." Nobody has moved an inch, just staring at him. "Perhaps this isn't a good time." He heads to the door but turns again just before stepping out. (punchline) "Sorry, do any of you happen to know which room is the Jehovah's Witnesses?"
[This message has been edited by tnwilz (edited January 04, 2010).]
Posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (Member # 59) on :
My heck, tnwilz, what room do you think you walked into?
This room isn't exclusive. Come on in and pull up a chair. Make yourself comfortable.
Posted by tnwilz (Member # 4080) on :
Just trying to make you laugh, Kathleen. Usually I'm the only one who thinks I'm funny though.
Posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (Member # 59) on :
Ah, well. Sense of humor is even more subjective than "the right way to write."
Thanks for trying.
If we find out where the Jehovah's Witnesses are, we'll let you know, okay?
Posted by philocinemas (Member # 8108) on :
I find it interesting that so many Mormons have entered and won a contest created by the founder of Scientology. - Seinfeld Disclaimer: NOT THAT THERE'S ANYTHING WRONG WITH THAT.
I'm curious how many Scientologists have entered and won WOTF.
Posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (Member # 59) on :
I'd be interested in knowing that, too, philocinemas. So far as I know, there were no Scientologists in volume 9 (my group).
Posted by andersonmcdonald (Member # 8641) on :
Dumb question...If you win the WOTF, do you have to show up at their event to accept the award? And also, if you admit that you laughed during the Scientology episode of South Park, does that automatically disqualify you? Uh oh...I may have just blew my chance...
Posted by andersonmcdonald (Member # 8641) on :
I'll just slip away quietly, now
Posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (Member # 59) on :
I don't think you have to be there to receive the award, but they put on a big party for you and pay your lodging and transportation, so it's kind of silly not to go.
It isn't ever polite to actually say derogatory things to or about your hosts when you are their guest, no matter what you may be thinking.
On the other hand (OTOH, in online abbreviation code), maybe they laughed at that SOUTH PARK episode, too. <shrug>
Posted by andersonmcdonald (Member # 8641) on :
Well said, Kathleen. It isn't polite to say derogatory things about your hosts. I guess my question is, how seperate is the WOTF and Scientology? I know very litle about WOTF. Maybe you can enlighten me. Hopefully it's toatlly seperate, and even if a person is an "SP" they could still win the contest. I know this sounds rude, I just wanted to know if this is an "open" contest. I know that most of the winners aren't Scientologists, so I'm not even suggesting the contest is "unfair". Just wanted to know what I'd be getting myself into, that's all. Please take these comments for what they are, an honest inquiry into the WOTF from someone who knows very little about it.
Posted by tnwilz (Member # 4080) on :
There's an old saying, "Never look a gift horse in the mouth." That is pretty much the approach I sense from most of the people I have met who have entered or attended the functions of the competition. I don't believe any of the actual judges are Scientologists. However all of the administration is done by Scientologists. One could assume positive or negative reasons for the church continuing the competition. I think it may be as simple as the fact that Mr Hubbard had two passions and one of them was being a fiction writer. He started WOTF and it seems they simply continue it in his honor. I've been to two of the award ceremonies and Scientology was never mentioned once, so if there is an ulterior motive it's extremely obscure and has apparently never impacted any of the judges who have worked with the competition for many many years. Also, it stands to reason that the belief system of Scientology makes this an interesting subject for them as well. From a business standpoint, I believe it has been estimated by other Hatrackers in the business, that the WOTF anthology doesn't do too bad in the market against the backdrop of what could be realistically expected in the publishing industry.
Posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (Member # 59) on :
Well, it's been a few years (how many I really don't want to think about, thank you very much), so it may be different now, but when I went, the only thing even close to Scientology that we saw was when they took us on a tour of the mansion they have in Hollywood for training new members.
They never talked about Scientology. The whole focus of the workshop was on L. Ron Hubbard's writing and how he wrote and on exercises that could improve our writing, based on things he considered important for writing, and so on and so forth.
We met in a conference room in the Author Services offices (less than a block from Gramman's Chinese Theater), and they sent us out from there to talk to people on the street or to do research for story ideas.
It really was all centered around writing, though it was L. Ron Hubbard's writing--his science fiction and adventure stories--and did not involve anything else.
Posted by tnwilz (Member # 4080) on :
So why do you think that there is a disproportionate number of LDS winners. Theories?
Posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (Member # 59) on :
LDS writers have wondered about that, too.
Possible reasons: no one has counted any of the other religions; there are more LDS writers who enter; LDS children are encouraged from a young age to do public speaking, so they learn early to be articulate; LDS beliefs are particularly open to certain aspects of science fiction (such as life on other planets and world-building); there have been science fiction writing classes and a SF small press publication at BYU (the LDS university) for decades; and probably others I haven't thought of or have forgotten.
Posted by andersonmcdonald (Member # 8641) on :
Thanks for the clarification. I respect many of the people on the list of judges. As long as I'm writing for them, I'm ok with it. Just didn't want my mouth taped shut for fear of losing a contest. My beliefs are important to me, and a contest isn't worth having to pander to ANY group. I never want to intentionally offend anybody. I just want to know I'm not getting involved with a group who would try to discourage my personal beliefs. I respect what L Ron Hubbard did by opening up the WOTF, I just don't want a recruitment program into his religion. Chalk all this up to my ignorance. I just wanted to know. Thanks!
Posted by andersonmcdonald (Member # 8641) on :
Sorry for the interruption. Back to your thread!
Posted by tnwilz (Member # 4080) on :
Oh and FYI if you joined Hatrack in the last couple of years. The WOTF question seems to come around with the blue moon and has been debated to death several times already. Frankly, there isn't much to know beyond what Kathleen and I have told you. The publisher and editor of the anthology is one of the nicest guys you could hope to meet and he is an active member of Hatrack. In the past (several years ago) he did find some of the thoughtless comments hurtful if not ignorant and he felt compelled to jump in set matters straight. Needless to say a number of people felt really stupid and apologized to him. Just thought that was worth mentioning in case anyone has preconceived negative notions about the competition.
Posted by andersonmcdonald (Member # 8641) on :
Thanks for the info. I really didn't mean to offend. I just ask straight questions. I don't feel stupid for asking them. I would expect a professional to understand and give straight answers, not be offended. I also expect a professional writing contest to focus on writing, which it appears the WOTF does, so any misunderstanding on my part shouldn't affect the outcome. I'm sure the publisher/Hatrack member would understand my misgivings. Anyone who truly "believes what they believe" can handle up-front questions. Having just stumbled on to the contest fairly recently, I had to ask before I submitted anything. BTW, I just heard Orson Scott Card on his audible page express his intitial reluctance in attending a WOTF class, which he also said was unfounded. I think everyone worries about what they're getting involved in. If that causes offense, I'm sorry.
[This message has been edited by andersonmcdonald (edited January 06, 2010).]
Posted by tnwilz (Member # 4080) on :
Not a problem, I thought your question was perfectly legitimate and respectful. I was doing an FYI just in case any newbies were following the thread and thinking of jumping in with strong assumptions (thats what happened before).
Posted by andersonmcdonald (Member # 8641) on :
Thanks for understanding. Sorry again for interrupting the thread. The fact that you didn't throw me out of here shows your class.
Posted by Brad R Torgersen (Member # 8211) on :
Once upon a time, I had a few misgivings about WOTF, due to the Scientology connection.
I reconsidered mainly because there are SO MANY BIG NAME AUTHORS who serve as judges, and WOTF is recognized by SFWA as a pro-pay market. That, and the money per-word is amazing. My 3rd place winner will have netted me 12 cents per word when all is said and done. That's astounding for a break-in story. Plus the cash value of the workshop, which is also taught by BIG NAME AUTHORS, and then the gala with the attendance and milling by BIG NAME AUTHORS.
Really, when you think about it, there is nothing to lose. Nobody who is anybody in SF or F will look down their nose at anyone who wins with WOTF. In fact, aspirants who have won have gone on to become BIG NAME AUTHORS with regularity, so I think most people -- save a few cranks -- recognize WOTF as a very legit, very valuable professional entry point for new talent.
My my feeling on the whole thing, anyway.
And thanks for all the Utahns who shouted out. C U at LTUE or CONduit!
Posted by Robert Nowall (Member # 2764) on :
Once upon a time, I had misgivings about the WoTF / Scientology connection...but I sent some stuff in to them anyway. Now I still have misgivings...and don't send them anything.
Posted by skadder (Member # 6757) on :
I worked out that I get 25 cents a word--mainly because my story is shorter than yours (Brad) by 3000 words.
$750 (prize) £500 (maximum payment for publishing) ---- $1250 divided by 5000 words= 25 cents per word.
Obviously there is also flights and hotel bills, which bump up the real value of winning.
Where else do you get 25 cents a word (unless you're Stephen King, of course)?
(This post would be worth $17 at that rate.)
[This message has been edited by skadder (edited January 08, 2010).]
Posted by Brad R Torgersen (Member # 8211) on :
What skadder (Adam) said. For the money, there really isn't a better break-in market going. And that's even before you consider prominence of the publication in the industry, or the cash value of the workshop and the gala.
As I said before, you have a few cranks *COUGH* Nick Mamatas *COUGH* who like to think WOTF isn't the premiere break-in market, but I've noticed these people are few and far between, and NOBODY whom I have spoken with at any conventions -- and who is also a currently working professional novel writer -- has anything but GOOD things to say about WOTF.
And yes, I admit that I am somewhat mercenary about all this. And yes, I think you kind of have to be mercenary, as a pro fiction writer. Literary writer, different aspirations. Pro fiction writer? Show me the money!
Posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (Member # 59) on :
Anyone who will be going to LTUE be interested in getting together for lunch one of the days, or dinner one of the evenings, or both, as people are available?
Posted by Owasm (Member # 8501) on :
I am interested. I would like to meet any fellow Hatrackers and I will be there for some things, anyway. Not sure how it's structured.
Posted by Brad R Torgersen (Member # 8211) on :
I'd be interested, absolutely. It would be fun to put a few more faces with a few more names.
Posted by Architectus (Member # 8809) on :
And it is a free contest. You can't go wrong there. It doesn't cost much to print your story and ship it. I wish they allowed digital submissions, though.
Posted by Brad R Torgersen (Member # 8211) on :
Edward A. Liebing of Utah, Semi. Ryan Paul DeCaria of Utah, HM. Brenna Asplund from Utah, HM. J.M. Peltier from Utah, HM. Daniel A. Smyth from Utah, HM. Ami Chopine of Utah, HM.
Are any of these people Hatrackers?
Posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (Member # 59) on :
Ami Chopine is the only one I know of for certain, and she hasn't been around much lately (she's had a couple of software books published, I believe).
edited to add: I apologize if I failed to recognize someone.
[This message has been edited by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (edited January 15, 2010).]
Posted by wrenbird (Member # 3245) on :
I'm planning on attending LTUE, and I'd love to at least say hi to any Hatracker that will be there. Will we have name tags or something?
Posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (Member # 59) on :
There usually are name tags.
Brad and I have a panel together, or so it seems, but it's near the end, if I remember correctly. If you haven't found us by then, though, come up and introduce yourself, okay?
Or we can have a Hatrack lunch after my noon panel on Friday, if anyone is interested.
Posted by Brad R Torgersen (Member # 8211) on :
I am sure I'll be in the crowd for at least one or two of Kathleen's panels, so you can locate here and/or me at the breaks. Otherwise, I am doing a panel on Military SF on Thursday, then invading the John Brown 2-hour workshop later that night, and as Kathleen notes, the short story panel on Saturday.
Posted by wrenbird (Member # 3245) on :
Cool! I'll come up and say hi. Posted by Pyre Dynasty (Member # 1947) on :
A hatrack lunch on Friday sounds fun.
Posted by Brad R Torgersen (Member # 8211) on :
Hatrack lunch on Friday sounds good to me too.
Posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (Member # 59) on :
It won't be until 1pm (because my panel is at noon), but if that's okay, let's plan on it.
Posted by Owasm (Member # 8501) on :
That will suit me just fine, too. Hatrack lunch at 1:00 or thereabouts. Looking forward to it.
Posted by MAP (Member # 8631) on :
I want to be in on the lunch. I am not sure I can get a babysitter for Friday, but I'll try. I can have my husband to tend the kids on Saturday. Is anyone going on Saturday? Is Friday the better day to go?
Posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (Member # 59) on :
I'll be there on Saturday, MAP.
Posted by snapper (Member # 7299) on :
Can I crash this party? I may just be able to pass on through on Saturday.
Do I need to register? Is their a fee? Can I park my 80 foot vehicle there?
Posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (Member # 59) on :
The BYU SF symposium is free, so that won't be a problem for you, snapper. The parking might, though.
If you get there early enough, maybe someone who is driving in can pick you up where it's okay to leave your vehicle (one of those Flying J's or something?) and bring you in to BYU with them.
Posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (Member # 59) on :
I've decided to make a request of any Hatrackers who attend the BYU Science Fiction symposium.
Please, if your username (the way we know you here) is different from the name that will be on your badge, could you write it on the badge somewhere, or let me give you a separate name badge that you can write your username on? So we can connect the username with the face (and the real name)?
I'd really appreciate it if you all would do that, and I suspect that others would appreciate it as well.
Posted by sholar (Member # 3280) on :
Kathleen- only tangentially related, but is there a way to change our username without registering again?
Posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (Member # 59) on :
No, sholar, sorry. That's the only way. But you can tell people that you are you (and I can verify it, in case anyone thinks they can mess around and claim to be someone they're not).
And if you change your email address, you are automatically registered again.
Posted by Dark Warrior (Member # 8822) on :
Have fun everyone!
Posted by snapper (Member # 7299) on :
Wish I could have made it. Unfortunately the long distance would have me arriving right when the doors were closing. So instead I drove across Montana. Hope you all had fun.
Maybe next time.
Posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (Member # 59) on :
snapper, the BYU Science Fiction Symposium is next weekend (11-13 February), not this weekend. It's a good thing you didn't come if you thought it was this Saturday. I'm really sorry for the confusion.
Posted by Owasm (Member # 8501) on :
With dewy eyes, I must announce that I won't be at LUTE. My recovery from surgery has developed a few complications.
Posted by MAP (Member # 8631) on :
Sorry to hear you won't be coming Owasm. I hope you are feeling better soon.
Posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (Member # 59) on :
Oh, dear, Owasm. That doesn't sound good. Please take care and get well so you can meet everyone at CONduit (Memorial Day weekend in Salt Lake).
Posted by EricJamesStone (Member # 1681) on :
I'm on Kathleen's noon panel on Friday, so I may be able to make the Hatrack lunch.
Posted by WBSchmidt (Member # 8533) on :
Does anyone have a link to the LTUE schedule of events? I'm on the LTUE site and I get a blank Page Not Found for the schedule.
Posted by Pyre Dynasty (Member # 1947) on :
