Hatrack River Writers Workshop: Romeo and Juliet

This is topic Romeo and Juliet - the best? in forum Open Discussions About Writing at Hatrack River Writers Workshop.

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Posted by philocinemas (Member # 8108) on :

I made a comment in the "What is Literary" thread, stating that Romeo and Juliet was the best piece of literature I had ever read. There was some disagreement over whether R&J was all that good, so Kathleen indicated that we should start a separate thread.

I do not believe I am qualified to say that Romeo and Juliet is the greatest piece of fiction in the English language (I definitely could not comment on novels that have been translated), but it is the best I have ever read. Being a play, I think it is a little more difficult to follow, but I am enthralled by its combination of meter, rhyme, repetition, alliteration, use of pun, allegory, and every other possible literary device, and yet it still delivers unforgetable characters and a great story - it is considered by many to be a literary archetype. I find it incomprehensibly complex.

I don't want this to be all about R&J - please feel free to suggest other works, but let us know why you believe your choice is the best.

Posted by RobertB (Member # 6722) on :

R&J is a product of a different culture (things have changed enormously in 400 years), and I find it, and some of the other plays, a bit hard to believe in. The bit I balk at is some of the endings. R&J both dying like that; all the bodies littering the stage at the end of Hamlet. It seems contrived. On the other hand, I love Macbeth as a study of tyranny.

[This message has been edited by RobertB (edited August 21, 2008).]

Posted by Reagansgame (Member # 8149) on :

I find myself laboring through the more classical literature. I have read it, and I've been interested enough, but I don't do it often. And I don't feel so inspired. I'm ashamed to say, there's a language barrier, there. R&J was a school assignment and maybe that is why it has left a distaste in my mind. I was forced to read it and then I was forced to watch that Claire Daines remake of it, and critique it.

I think Mark Twain is one of my favorites, as far as literary work that I've gotten into and tried to consume every last scrap. Pick a title of his, and that will be my vote. He has a very unique way of taking these huge social issues or some of the greater philosophical questions and breaking them down into something that is very simple and sometimes humorous. I think he should get some recognition for helping with perspective.

[This message has been edited by Reagansgame (edited August 21, 2008).]

Posted by Robert Nowall (Member # 2764) on :

I wouldn't say that Romeo and Juliet is even the best of Shakespeare---I gather it was a relatively early work in his career, and he would do better later on. (Look at the reactions other characters have to the supposed death of Juliet---it goes on, and on, and on---Shakespeare would do better with death scenes in works like Julius Caesar.)

*****

Probably the best book I've read is Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings. Certainly it wasn't one that changed my life (that'd be Heinlein's Space Cadet). Nor was it one that moved me like no other (that'd be The Wind in the Willows). But I've kept coming back to it, again and again, and I expect to keep doing so.

*****

My opinions change over the years. Recently I reread The Brothers Karamazov, which I read in high school, for high school---and remembered nothing of it when I reread it this time. It had improved in the meantime---or, more likely, I have.

I'm enheartened enough to try out War and Peace again. I've gotten one chapter into it---which is further in than I got back in my high school years.

A lot of things I didn't care for, or didn't sample at all, do come highly recommended. Now that I'm improved, I may try a lot of things once more.

Posted by Zero (Member # 3619) on :

Best work of literature ever created is ...

[This message has been edited by Zero (edited August 21, 2008).]

Posted by Lullaby Lady (Member # 1840) on :

I think that each person has a classic or two (which doesn't just refer to old books) that is "theirs". My definition of "classic" is a work that changes one, that lifts a person to a higher plane, makes them want to change, etc. If R&J is yours, that's great!

For me, it was "A Tale of Two Cities" by Dickens. When I finished reading it, I realized I was a different person than when I had started. I've read many books that I loved through the years, but this one went straight to my heart and I felt it literally change me.

Now, if you were to ask my opinion about who I think is the best writer in history, I'm afraid I would duke it out to the death defending Austen! LOL! I mean, I adore the Bard, but, man! Jane wrote with a wit that still zings in this day and age. If I could write with even the tiniest sliver of her brilliance, I'd be a happy girl.

Robert, you're gonna love War and Peace. That was another one for me that brought all kinds of new insight into the realities of war, and made me look at marriage in a new light, as well. (Tolstoy... he's another one that gives chills...)

Happy reading, all!

Posted by Corin224 (Member # 2513) on :

quote:
I'm afraid I would duke it out to the death defending Austen! LOL! I mean, I adore the Bard, but, man! Jane wrote with a wit that still zings in this day and age.

Lullaby, I gotta agree with you there. I'm a SF junkie, computer nerd, gamer, etc, and I still love Pride & Prejudice more than a lot of other stories I've read. It's not in my top 5, but it's in my top 10, and it's the only one up there most people would call 'Classic'.

Dunno if any of James Clavell's stuff would count, but Shogun was one that actually changed my perspective on life significantly, and even if it hasn't reached the ripe old age which qualifies it as 'Classic', it certainly is of a high enough quality to count, IMHO.

As far as R&J . . . I like the story . . . it's quite deliberately contrived, I think. It's absurd in the extreme, I suspect with the idea of mockery through exaggeration. Honestly, when I think of R&J any more, though, I think of Baz Luhrman's interpretation . . . one of the only movies Leo DiCaprio's been in that was worth anything. The death scene is freakin' brilliant, and while the movie as a whole is a bit disjointed, there's some truly astounding brilliance in places. And while much of that can be attributed to the interpretation, I think a fair bit of the credit can still go to the Bard himself for providing a fair bit of depth in the first place.

For me, that story has ALWAYS been about neglect, innocence, but mostly about taking trivial things far too seriously. The love story, the tragedy is all a tool for the commentary, I think. It's really just good ol' Bill saying to his audience "People . . . LTFU!"

Still applies to this day, I think.

-Falken (posing as Corin)

Posted by Christine (Member # 1646) on :

I'm with Robert on this -- I don't even think R&J is Shakespeare's best work. Not that I'm a huge Shakespeare fan anyway. I have a certain degree of appreciation for it but it is not of my time and culture and it requires a lot of work to appreciate.

I have no opinion on the best piece of literature of all time. That's a tough position to defend, even in my own mind. A lot of books are good. I don't think I've ever read one that was perfect.

Posted by J (Member # 2197) on :

I am a huge Shakespeare fan, and I'm not that fond of R&J. And, to the Jane Austen fans, I would rather pull my own fingernails than read Pride & Prejudice again (that's not metaphor. I mean it literally).

To answer Zero, I think the best piece of literature ever penned is . . .
drum roll
. . .

The Brothers Karamazov, Fyodor Dostoevsky

Posted by philocinemas (Member # 8108) on :

I would like to clarify what I was stating about R&J. It is not my favorite story of all time. I find Shakespeare a very difficult read. However, I borrowed an R&J audiobook from the library about a year ago, and I was able to listen to it the way it is supposed to be read for the very first time. I had to go back and read along. It is very complex in its word-play, and that is the reason I made the comment. I borrowed several other Shakespeare audiobooks and didn't get the same feel. I do not think it is the best story necessarily. Although, I do think it is Shakespeare's most universal and enduring story.

As far as writer's go, I tend to think Dickens is the best. That said, I might choose Moby Dick as the best English-language novel of all time - it would at least be in my pick for top five.
What have I enjoyed the most?...I actually find this more difficult. I enjoy novels for different reasons.

[This message has been edited by philocinemas (edited August 21, 2008).]

Posted by InarticulateBabbler (Member # 4849) on :

In school, I didn't get into Shakespeare at all. Frankly, I thought the best version of Romeo and Juliet was the campy cartoon version: Romie-O and Julie-8. I liked Hamlet, Othello, Macbeth, The Taming of the Shrew, King Lear and Julius Caeser. I wouldn't call any of them my favorite.

As far as the greatest piece of fiction in the english language goes. That will be infinitely disputed. However, there are some idisputable literary influences: The Iliad, The Odyssey, Beowulf, The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings, Dracula, Frankenstein, 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea, War of the Worlds, The Count of Monte Christo, King Solomon's Mines, Ivanhoe, Rob Roy, 1984, Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep, Tarzan of the Apes, To Kill A Mockingbird, Don Quixote, War and Peace, The Brothers Karamazov, Moby Dick, Emma and Pride and Prejudice, Great Expectations, Adventures of Huckleberry Finn, Crime and Punishment, Tess of the D'Urbervilles, Wuthering Heights, The Scarlet Letter, Jane Eyre, The Red Badge of Courage, The Grapes of Wrath, A Farewell to Arms and The Old Man and the Sea, Robinson Crusoe, The Last of the Mohicans, Uncle Tom's Cabin, Les Miserables, The Catcher in the Rye, The Hound of the Baskervilles, Gone with the Wind, Invisible Man, I, Claudius, The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe, Lord of the Flies, One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, Epic of Gilgamesh, Aesop's Fables, The History of Herodotus, The Travels of Marco Polo, The Divine Comedy, The Prince, Common Sense, Treasure Island, The Call of the Wild, All Quiet on the Western Front, Anne Frank: The Diary of a Young Girl, The Art of War, and The I Ching to name a few...

[This message has been edited by InarticulateBabbler (edited August 21, 2008).]

Posted by WouldBe (Member # 5682) on :

I don't think it is valid to dismiss R&J because of the culture and language. You'll have teenyboppers now who sneer at your 60s, 70s and 80s icons for the same reason. It is only the matter of degrees how accessible the story is. As much as I loved Stranger in a Strange Land when I read it in the 70s, it sounded quite different and "very 70s" to me a few years ago when I picked it back up. This is a dramatic change compared to the 500+ years since R&J was first penned.

R&J is inaccessible to most because of the archaic language and to a lesser degree, the culture. (One poster mentioned Beowulf; the original language of Beowulf is completely inaccessible because of the language except to a (Saxon?) scholar, yet we recognize it as a breakthrough work in translation to modern English.) R&J is full of puns and wonderful turns of phrases, many of which can not be appreciated without a scholar's commentary. But that one is not a scholar does not change one word or letter in the story.

Posted by satate (Member # 8082) on :

I remember when I first read R&J. I was in Jr. High School and it was assigned. I was amazed. I loved it. I had never read such witty word play in all my short life of 13 years. It didn't move me, and I wasn't attached to the charaters (I knew they were going to die anyways) but it was my first experience with how writing could be an art form. I felt enlightened after reading that book. For that reason R&J is close to my heart.

Best work of all time? I think it would be impossible to choose. Even limiting it to ten would make the greatest minds of the world debate for hours. Besides it's art, you can't quantify it. Art is meant to evoke something in the beholder, making it a personal choice.

On a side note I love Austen too. Her books are one of the few I like to read every few years. That and Tolkein.

Posted by RobertB (Member # 6722) on :

<<Robert, you're gonna love War and Peace. That was another one for me that brought all kinds of new insight into the realities of war, and made me look at marriage in a new light, as well. (Tolstoy... he's another one that gives chills...)>>

Happy reading, all!>>

I probably would now. My father pressured me into reading stuff like that in my early teens (I was reading Dickens at ten) and I was so badly put off I've never gone back. I should force myself!

Posted by TaleSpinner (Member # 5638) on :

I learned to fear Shakespeare, or rather, our Shakespeare teacher. His mission was to nail it into our heads. If we could not recite the piece he'd demanded we learn, he'd hammer our heads with a fistful of Shakespeare's collected works. Let me tell you, olde Will wrote a lot and a book o' collected works is heavy.

Despite that, more than R&J (which I thought was soppy) I liked Merchant of Venice for the twist of logic with the pound of flesh; and Midsummer Night's Dream, for the comedy of Pyramus and Thisbe and the girl who, in class, read Titania's part--herself, a dream any time of year.

At school I disliked most of the literature we were made to read, Dickens and the rest, for their times and plots were uninteresting and irrelevant to the modern world I enjoyed discovering. I did, though, enjoy Gulliver's Travels for its political satire, Sherlock Holmes for the detective work, and, of course, Jules Verne and HG Wells who appealed to my developing love of SF.

Are Penguin Classics "literature"? If so, Fleming's Bond books are amongst best literature for me.

George Orwell's 1984 was good for a chilling look into a possible future. I refuse to read it ever again. Too depressing, and willing suspension of disbelief is painfully easy.

Mark Twain's "A Tramp Abroad" was a delightfully mischievous and affectionate portrait of Europe. I especially enjoyed his German memories because, at the time I read it, I was living in Germany and struggling to understand their ways. Twain's insights were profound, still relevant a century later.

I'm not sure if they're modern literature or mainstream fiction but I've recently enjoyed "Devil in the White City" by Erik Larson, and "Carter Beats the Devil" by Glen David Gold, for their evocative, historically accurate portaits of Chicago and San Francisco respectively, at the turn of the century.

Finally, "Blackpool Flyer" by Andrew Martin, which does a great job of recreating the sights, sounds, smells (smoke), mores and ways of speaking of life on the steam railways of London and Backpool in 1905.

Cheers,
Pat

[This message has been edited by TaleSpinner (edited August 22, 2008).]

Posted by Robert Nowall (Member # 2764) on :

A Shakespeare sidebar...the best appreciation of Shakespeare's art comes not from reading his plays, but seeing them performed. Fortunately for this, there's home video---something Shakespeare never dreamed of---and you can usually find some adaptation or other that gives the gist of it better than a cold reading of a heavy text.

(There's a PBS / BBC (I think) joint production of all of Shakespeare's plays, from sometime in the eighties, which might be worth a look...though these are hardly the best adaptations, they'll do...)

Posted by Lullaby Lady (Member # 1840) on :

I agree with Robert. The medium Shakespeare used WAS the theatre. So that is where it is best experienced.

Some of the BBC versions Robert was referring to are available to watch for free on Netflix (If you're a Netflix member, I believe). And the complete works ARE available for rent there, as well. Some are better than others, of course, but they're definitely worth checking out! Our family liked the BBC's Midsummer Night's Dream and Macbeth.

Oh, and some of my favorite Hollywood versions are:

"Hamlet" with Mel Gibson
"Twelfth Night" with Imogen Stubbs and Ben Kingsley
"Much Ado about Nothing" with Emma Thompson and Kenneth Branagh
"Henry the V" with Kenneth Branagh (and Emma Thompson)

Posted by J (Member # 2197) on :

Branagh's version of Much Ado is worth renting just to see Michael Keaton's portrayal of Dogberry:

"But, masters, remember that I am an ass; though it be not written down, yet forget not that I am an ass. . . . I am a wise fellow, and, which is more, an officer, and, which is more, a householder, and, which is more, as pretty a piece of flesh as any is in Messina . . . "

[This message has been edited by J (edited August 23, 2008).]

Posted by Lullaby Lady (Member # 1840) on :

J-

LOL!!! Amen!

Posted by tnwilz (Member # 4080) on :

Deleted

[This message has been edited by tnwilz (edited September 19, 2008).]

Posted by tigertinite (Member # 4803) on :

Heh, it is difficult for me to come up with a favorite novel, much less attempt to even attempt such a gargantuan task as choosing 'the greatest' work ever. Every work I have read has its flaws, but I'm afraid that for me it is a tie between Shakespeare's Hamlet (for tragedy) and A Tree Grows In Brooklyn.

Posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (Member # 59) on :

I think it's interesting the way the structure of A Tree Grows in Brooklyn helps the story work.

Posted by Robert Nowall (Member # 2764) on :

Yesterday, for awhile, I watched some of the movie version of "Julius Caesar," the one with Marlon Brando as Marc Antony. (1) Good stuff, well acted all around, though (2) I know too much about history now to enjoy it as entertainment, and (3) I don't think the real people would have talked the way Shakespeare had them talk.

Posted by RobertB (Member # 6722) on :

Historical it isn't, but it's still relevant in a way that a strictly historical representation might not be. The plotters really do act like modern coup plotters, and while we might not take dreams and omens and the like seriously in the west these days, there are plenty of places where they do.

I'll never forget the day Tina Musa was going round, visibly over the moon, saying they'd done some juju, and 'Power is coming to return to us'. Three weeks later the soldiers in Freetown had overthrown the government and hung out placards calling on her wretched husband to return as President.