Hatrack River Writers Workshop: genres other than science fiction and fantasy

This is topic genres other than science fiction and fantasy in forum Open Discussions About Writing at Hatrack River Writers Workshop.

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Posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (Member # 59) on :

I get the impression that most of you have found the Hatrack River Writers Workshop because you have read and enjoyed one or more of Orson Scott Card's science fiction or fantasy works.

There are those, however, who are not as interested in science fiction and fantasy as some, and I'd like to know, for their sakes, who all here in the workshop is interested in writing and critiquing works that are not science fiction or fantasy.

If you are open to other kinds of stories, could you please say so, and say what kinds?

To get things started, I'll say that in fiction I enjoy reading mysteries and historicals as well as some mainstream. In nonfiction, I enjoy reading about history, psychology, anthropology, economics, and what is often called "hard science" (biology, physics, mathematics, some chemistry, but more especially forensic science and criminology).

Posted by InarticulateBabbler (Member # 4849) on :

I'm into Historical Fiction, Adventure, Crime, Mystery, Suspence and Thrillers...but, I'd read anything if I felt it was good and it promised to satisfy me.

[This message has been edited by InarticulateBabbler (edited April 29, 2008).]

Edited again to clear up the God (which wasn't capitalized) Good (which isn't capitalized) issue. Sheesh.

[This message has been edited by InarticulateBabbler (edited April 29, 2008).]

Posted by arriki (Member # 3079) on :

I am mostly focused on SF. I won't normally buy a fantasy story though I will read/critique some here. Out in the bookstore I gravitate toward the mystery/thriller section first. I am VERY reluctant to read romances. I will read some light-hearted social fiction novels. But I'd rather not critique that. For work, here, I much prefer sf with the occasional bit of non-urban fantasy.

Posted by smncameron (Member # 7392) on :

While I certainly tend to gravitate towards science fiction and fantasy, I'm proud to say I have a pretty diverse palate. I also read books which use words like palate.

Posted by Bent Tree (Member # 7777) on :

Slipstream-yes
Historical fiction-yes
Horror-yes

Mainstream-
Romance

I would be open even to some well written essays, plays, etc...
but it would hurt to see the forum crowded with mainstream and romance. I think it would deter some of us from participation.

Posted by Bent Tree (Member # 7777) on :

Oh I forgot humour...

We should promote that in all genres

Posted by annepin (Member # 5952) on :

I'm interested in pretty much anything, except maybe Romance. I have a special interest in Historical Fiction. I also like crime, some literary fiction.

In non-fiction I like history, ecology, geography, evolution, and general biology.

Posted by psnede on :

To be honest, most of what I read isn't SFF. The last 2 books I read were Blood Meridian and The Kite Runner. I try to mix up my reading quite a bit. I read 2/3 Fiction and about 1/3 NF. The 2/3 is pretty well divided between classics, SFF, and mainstream.

I always have loved the speculative element in stories, however.

Posted by JamieFord (Member # 3112) on :

I came here years ago because I love SF&F. But, I haven't read much of it lately. I tend to read commercial/literary, historicals, mystery, thrillers, pretty much everything but horror and bodice-ripping romance. I have a soft-spot in my heart for graphic novels. I just want a great story, I don't care about the genre.

Posted by annepin (Member # 5952) on :

Maybe I'll add that I'm drawn to this web site precisely because of its focus on speculative fiction. I've found quality (and non-quality) non-speculative fiction forums/ writing groups plentiful. However, finding a focused, quality speculative fiction forum has been challenging. Therefore, while I'd be happy to see the occasional mainstream posting, I'd be a little sad if that became more than just occasional.

On the other hand, I'm wavering toward adopting a more democratic point of view, and saying, heck, post any story in the Fragments thread and if it attracts readers, regardless of genre, more power to you.

My bias above has more to do with my bitterness toward some of the treatment I've encountered from "non-genre" writers: "Oh, I don't read that sort of thing." or "Well, I don't know about a made up world, but in the real world..." etc. So, finding a haven of like-minded people has been truly inspiring to me.

[This message has been edited by annepin (edited April 29, 2008).]

Posted by nitewriter (Member # 3214) on :

I'm moving slowly away from science fiction and more and more toward mainstream stories. This is because I read a book on writing by Dean Koontz in which he strongly suggests an aspiring writer not aim for science fiction - but go mainstream instead. I think there is alot to this. I think Jamie Ford said he had trouble with science fiction - then he cranked out a mainstream work - and bam - he hit it out of the park. Science fiction is not impossible to crack, as shown by Sara Genge as well as others here, I just think there is a better chance of connecting with something mainstream.

I read in subjects such as science, medicine, and economic, social and political commentary, bio's, novels and short story collections of many authors. I have a real aversion to romance, suspense, political intrigue, "lawyer" type novels and fantasy novels/stories. I must be one of very few people who has not read Lord of the Rings and not read or seen any of the Harry Potter books or movies. This is the reason I seldom comment on fantasy 13's - I'm not up to speed in the area and not competent to judge it.

[This message has been edited by nitewriter (edited April 29, 2008).]

Posted by Tiergan (Member # 7852) on :

Fantasy - is my main draw.
Sci-fi - is coming on strong since joining here, the soft kind.
Action/adventure - Clive Cussler type.
Western - Use to love this genre, havn't read much lately.

Other than that, open to all types, excluding romance, as long as they are action packed. I like me action, wheter it be, sword, gun, phaser, or magic.

Posted by tnwilz (Member # 4080) on :

Mostly Sci-Fi for me. Some fantasy, like Le Guins stuff.

quote:
but, I'd read anything if I felt it was god and it promised to satisfy me.

Oh, I had never noticed you were religious before. Umm, arent you supposed to be the one making the promises to God not the other way around?

Tracy

Posted by arriki (Member # 3079) on :

I'm surprised at how many people here say they don't read much sf. And this is supposedly a mecca for sf writers?

What's going on? Why are people not reading so much sf?

I know I have to force myself to read sf novels recently. Something's missing in a lot of them. As if they aren't very reader friendly.

Posted by JamieFord (Member # 3112) on :

I don't know if people are necessarily not reading SF--perhaps they're just reading a wider variety of books.

Posted by InarticulateBabbler (Member # 4849) on :

quote:

I'm surprised at how many people here say they don't read much sf. And this is supposedly a mecca for sf writers?

Hmm. I made no pilgrimage here to write Science Fiction. I came here because I visit all the sites of my favorite authors. This happened to have a writers workshop, and that excited me. If George R. R. Martin, Robin Hobb, Kevin J. Anderson, Bernard Cornwell or a plethora of other authors had writers workshop, I'd either be one of those, or one of those too. I intended to focus on fantasy--though my brain dumps space-fantasy, historical or horror onto the page more often than I try to--and have grown to love any prose that draws me in. But, I have decided that I don't like literary at all. It needs too much allegory or metaphor for my taste--resulting in the prose loosing me.

Posted by kathyton (Member # 7780) on :

Between time for writing and research for writing, my fiction consumption has dropped to almost nothing in the last few years. Before that, I liked mysteries and classics. I really read almost anything, if it's well done.

As far as workshopping, I can (and have) critique anything. Personal interest has nothing to do with providing feedback.I think the principles of good storytelling are universal-- all genres, no genre, creative nonfiction, journalism.

Lately, I loved Specimen Days by Michael Cunningham (Pulitzer & PEN/Faulker award winner), which I guess is literary but -- well, it ends up with an alien and and android making a cross country trip to catch a rocket to outer space. It's a great example of how "mainstream" and "literary" writers are finding that speculative elements open up their worlds.

Posted by Merlion-Emrys (Member # 7912) on :

Horror, definitely.

I don't really care what you call it...anything that has an element of the unusual be it supernatural/magical or also super science, futuristic or whatever is what interest me.

I guess that includes "slipstream" too, although from what I can tell its basically fantasy..

Posted by annepin (Member # 5952) on :

Sorry, I guess my previous post was kind of bitter and perhaps a bit critical. I'm open to workshopping any kind of stories. I think the key would be to designate the genre when you post the story fragment to avoid mixed expectations and so forth.

But yes, a good story is a good story is a good story!

Posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (Member # 59) on :

Granted, there are enough people "out there" who look down on science fiction and fantasy and who aren't willing to consider it writing worth bothering with, so I'm glad to be part of something that provides workshopping for science fiction and fantasy.

That said, I also believe that writers of all kinds can learn from each other and in so doing, improve whatever kind of writing they are trying to do.

I hope this can be a place where that kind of learning and sharing can happen as well.

Posted by TaleSpinner (Member # 5638) on :

I agree with Annepin's sentiments. I came to Hatrack because I had read OSC's books on writing, which I found enormously helpful, and because of the strength of your moderation, Kathleen, and because Hatrack is specifically about F&SF.

I'd be very open to other genres because, as you say, writers can learn from all kinds of places. My broader tastes include historical fiction set in the steam age, spies and detectives, popularized science, history, philosophy and bios of inspirational people, usually scientists and engineers.

I'd be happy to see other genres, but disappointed if Hatrack became flooded with horror and romance, and very disappointed if it attracted the elitists who despise SF--above all, please keep it SF-friendly.

And thanks for all your hard work keeping this a civilised, constructive place. I have learned much, and continue to do so.

Cheers,
Pat

Edited to add:

In other threads we've discussed how SF seems to be deteriorating. Indeed, I find myself writing something other than SF at times, variously historical fantasy and fantasy as well as SF, because that's the genre that suits the story in my mind. So I guess I'll want to offer some other-than SF stories myself for crits, much to my surprise.

Maybe by opening to other genres, Hatrack could encourage and influence more writers and bring SF&F into their material, thus broadening the genre; and maybe we could learn from writers outside the genre how to revitalise SF&F--or is that too grand a design?

[This message has been edited by TaleSpinner (edited April 30, 2008).]

Posted by MartinV (Member # 5512) on :

I get plenty of real life as it is so when I take a book I hope it will be anything but real life. So is with my writing.

Posted by Elan (Member # 2442) on :

My primary WIP is fantasy, but I still hope someday to write a historical fiction story that's in me. I occasionally write a 400 word opinion piece for the newspaper I work for. Unfortunately, over the past year writing has had to go on the backburner. I had health issues last summer and now I've got a lot of freelance web design projects sucking up all my free time. I hope to get back to writing this fall.

From a reading standpoint, I have primarily read spiritual metaphysics for the past few years. I incorporate some of those elements into my fantasy. I'm not reading much fiction, but occasionally I still enjoy a well-written fantasy. I don't often read sci-fi, unless it has a philosophical or fantasy edge that grabs me. OSC does a great job of incorporating the elements I like in a story. Years ago I used to read a lot of romance and historical fiction, and am convinced I could write as well or better than much that's on the market.

Even though I'm not writing much at this point, I'm still critiquing for a couple of people I first met via Hatrack. I feel that helps me a great deal to keep involved.

Posted by slocum (Member # 7925) on :

In the past, my focus in my reading has been on SF, fantasy, and historical mysteries (Brother Cadfael, Sano Ichiro) but in the last few years, I've started down the supernatural detective/erotica genre with Laurell K Hamilton. I guess these would classify as horror, if you had to put one genre on them.

My writing is mainly speculative fiction and erotica. I have surprised myself because I've always had a strong dislike of horror, and now the majority of my speculative fiction writing has been horror.

Brett

Posted by WouldBe (Member # 5682) on :

Historical fiction (including various alt-historical subgenres), mainstream, SF, flash-everything. Used to read techno-thrillers, but seemed to have lost interest. Mysteries now and then. My favorite is a new genre (you might not have heard of it): urban slipstream graphical alternate-history biographies.

Posted by Robert Nowall (Member # 2764) on :

My writing has continued to concentrate on SF...but my reading interests have exercised a decided shift away. Right now it's non-fiction covering history and politics that hold my interest...but I'll pick up just about anything.

My last trip to the bookstore resulted in the purchase of (1) a history of the American Left written by someone from the American Right, (2) a book about the damage done by a bunch of other books, (3) a paperback reprint (with new material) about Islamic infiltration into Western civilization, (4) a reminisence of a politician by a (recently deceased) political commentator, and (5) a classic SF reprint. Four essentially deal with both history and politics, and one once helped shape my worldview, enough to make it worth yet another glance in a new edition.

Posted by Jo1day (Member # 7800) on :

Historical fiction I like. I like some romance, though I usually prefer romance to be included in something else (or to be along the lines of Jane Austen Novels.) I might be able to get into mystery again, though I never really got too much beyond Nancy Drew (I read some Sherlock Holmes, but not many). Mainstream depends on the story. I've read good, I've read bad. If anyone wants to put 'round children's books in any genre, I'm there.

Not Horror, though, or thrillers. I get sensory overload.

Posted by debhoag (Member # 5493) on :

I read a lot of mystery, thriller, supernatural thriller stuff. When there's romantical elements, I enjoy it even more. I have kind of a thing for English classic murder mysteries - Ngaio Marsh, Dorothy Sayers, etc.

Posted by Toby Western (Member # 7841) on :

I read and enjoy pretty much any branch of fiction, with the exception of romance. Romance shocks me. I can't believe sweet-looking old ladies read that stuff!

Posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (Member # 59) on :

Well, there's shocking romance and then there's what I believe is known as "sweet" (non-shocking) romance. I'm not certain what all the terms are that they use to distinguish the various kinds of romance, though.

I've been thinking about romance and why so many people have a problem with it (while so many others absolutely love it).

I submit that it may have something to do with the what could be called the "predictability" of romance. By definition, or so I understand, it doesn't really qualify as romance if the two main characters don't end up together when the story's finished. What readers of other kinds of books don't find in romance is the question of how it will all turn out, and that can be a major stumbling block.

So would the appeal be that readers who like romance know they are going to get some kind of happy ending? And the dislike be related to a feeling that the tension seems somewhat contrived, since you know they're going to end up together eventually?

It would seem to me that when you've got something with an ending that is more or less expected, the art is in how you get to the ending. A really clever writer can make the journey enjoyable, even though the destination is never really in question.

What do y'all think?

Posted by nitewriter (Member # 3214) on :

I worked at a library while in college. I was always amazed at the sheer number of romance novels women would check out and read. There wsa no limit, they often checked out a few dozen or more. They would come back, usually well short of the due date, having read them all. It was consumption at an almost industrial level. I don't recall a male ever checking out a romance novel. Over time you would get to know the patrons and most of the women who read romance voraciously were either single or divorced. So, it seemed to me they felt if you did not have a relationship - or they were in an unhappy one - at least reading about a relationship was the next best thing. I'm not sure the storyline makes much difference as long as the girl ends up with her man - at least that's how it was then.

I once read a few of these novels - they were real howlers. There was no way I could take them seriously. Then I made the mistake of trying to write one. It turned into a fiasco as the temptation to play up and take the "corn" factor to a satiric extreme was just too great and I could not write it with serious intent.

Posted by dee_boncci (Member # 2733) on :

I'm really only a tepid fan of Sci-Fi, more into fantasy and horror. I read "mainstream" novels pretty regularly. Anything that suggests there's something more to existence than what we can see with our eyes, I am attracted to.

Posted by debhoag (Member # 5493) on :

I definitely like to have a happy ending - it satisfies my sense of rightness with the world. And its true - with romance, its pretty much a guarantee that the right people are going to live happily ever after, and the bad guy is going down.

I rather have a problem with stories that are propelled by something bad happening to someone for no other reason than to forward the plot - especially when its a woman or child who gets the "throw away" role.

I used to just loath Steven King for this reason - several good guys always end up dying - its more of a chaos theory of characters. I read more of his work now, just because its always interesting to see what he's up to.

Posted by brainie (Member # 7810) on :

I read anything, as long as it's written well.

Posted by Jo1day (Member # 7800) on :

I don't know. I really like romance myself, when it's not "ugly." For example, there's one that L.M. Montgomery wrote that I absolutely adore. But the reason why I love that one is that it isn't just about the love story, it's about what the main character does to actually live . . . I mean, I'm always happy when there's a happy ending, because I really despise tragedies. (Okay I don't DESPISE them, but they were shoved down our throats quite a lot when I tried to be an English Major, because there's a certain kind of people who believe that tragedy is the only reality, and they seem to have invaded the cloister of people who decide what good literature is). But I know I avoid most romances because of the high possibility of getting the "ick" kind of romance.

Posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (Member # 59) on :

I agree, Jo1day. There needs to be more in a story than a tension (when will these two finally get together?) that you know is going to be resolved (so it really isn't a tension).

I absolutely loved Georgette Heyer's Regency romances because of what they showed about the Regency period and culture, and because they really fit in with my sense of humor.

I also agree that how the two manage to overcome obstacles keeping them apart has a much better chance of interesting me when I don't have to worry about the "ick" factor related to what they do once they get together.

I don't think I want to turn this topic into a discussion of the "ick" factor and how various people define it, though. So let's stay away from that aspect of romance novels. There are plenty of them out there without it, so we can discuss romance novels, if we desire, without discussing "ickiness."

(Wondering if I should make the same restriction on horror's particular kind of "ickiness" as well. Maybe I should.)

Posted by Merlion-Emrys (Member # 7912) on :

For my part, I think the existing restrictions as far as not posting anything objectionable in first 13's and letting people know the content and nature of a story seem to work well.

A lot of what I write is hard to classify. Much of it is pretty straightforward fantasy with nothing beyond typical fantasy battle-violence, but a lot of my industrial-influenced stuff does have some unpleasantness. Some times even a lot...but I never post those parts, and I always forewarn people as to what the story contains.

I would be sad if that wasnt able to continue.

[This message has been edited by Merlion-Emrys (edited May 02, 2008).]

Posted by MrsBrown (Member # 5195) on :

It sounds like there is sufficient interest to open up Hatrack to a wider set of writers. We have a Nonfiction forum that is pretty dead, but what about other genres?

I think anyone should be welcome to post a First 13 in any genre, so long as they state the genre in the topic name and/or intro (so they don't get lots of comments like, where's the speculative element?).

Perhaps it would be useful to start a new forum for non-SF/F (stories and novels), so we don't lose our primary focus in our existing forums. I came to Hatrack because of the genre, and wouldn't want to lose that focus. But it might not get off the ground, with people not visiting it.

Interesting idea, KDW!

[This message has been edited by MrsBrown (edited May 02, 2008).]

Posted by Doctor (Member # 7736) on :

What about poetry?

Posted by Elan (Member # 2442) on :

Writing is writing, regardless of genre. My exerience, as member of a critique group, was that the member(s) who wrote toward a non-SF/F base would get annoyed when we critiqued style: "Well, this is how it's done! Maybe you just don't understand because you don't read <insert genre here>." The reality is that improbable set-up, cliche'd characters, illogical rationale for character action... those things stand out, regardless of genre and sometimes it helps to have someone read and critique your stuff who is NOT entrenched in the style of the genre. They can more easily identify plot points that don't really make sense, because they aren't willing to buy into a cliche'd core premise; you have to make it believeable.

If you are asking for votes, I vote to open up the forum to other genres. It's kind of fun to read the other stuff.

I would want to see some sort of flag every time if it's horror. I choose not to do violence, and what is an acceptable level to some folks will hit my "I can't handle this" meter much quicker than average. While I don't object to adult material for myself, I also keep in mind that we get quite a few high school age kids using this board. If you open it up to erotica, perhaps a password protected area that goes off your birthdate to keep it 18 or over?

Posted by Merlion-Emrys (Member # 7912) on :

I think the existing guidlines pretty much cover any concerns about content.

I also think the site should be kept focused on fantastical/supernatural/speculative/SF stuff, as oposed to mainstream. Not that other things necessarily have to be disallowed, but I'd like the focus to remain.

Posted by Robert Nowall (Member # 2764) on :

Well, I'll go dumpster diving into just about any area of literature. I'll look at anything. Usually I come up with something interesting.

For example, I read, oh, a couple of hundred Harlequin Romances around the time I tried my hand at writing one. (Research your market.)

Most of them, I forgot as soon as I closed the book and moved on. But three of them---just three---struck just the right nerve, and I remember them fondly to this day. Go figure.

Posted by goatboy (Member # 2062) on :

Not that I have time to comment, but for non-fiction, I usually read grammar, writer's-how-to, artist bio's, marketing, or history.

For non-fiction, my current interest is in Westerns, with emphasis on works created between 1901 and 1940. A couple of years ago I was reading sci-fi created in the 1950's and 1960's. I also don't mind a bit of high-fantasy, although it isn't my main cup-of-tea, and I am familliar enough with light horror and mainstream to at least appreciate them.

Posted by lscott (Member # 7870) on :

I read just about anything that appeals to me...usually DON'T read horror, although I love Laurel K. Hamilton's stuff and I think even her stuff could be considered "romance" or "romantic" in some ways...I think a lot of the labels that we put on writing are not definite and what I am currently writing doesn't really "fit" into any category I've read about...although I'm trying to make it a graphic novel.

To try to keep this short, I would read and try to critique any type of writing with the possible exception of horror and would, as others have said, appreciate those being labeled as such.

I would have no problem with this forum being primarily aimed at SF/F but allowing people to post anything that fits within the guidelines set down by Katherine, who does a good job, in my opinion.

The only problem I have is the time to do anyone's justice, but I am trying to make that better because I want others to do the same for me....