Hatrack River Writers Workshop: What's the deal with a novel?

This is topic What's the deal with a novel? in forum Open Discussions About Writing at Hatrack River Writers Workshop.

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Posted by skadder (Member # 6757) on :

I know we have some published novelists among us so perhaps you could answer a question.

I get the process:

1) Write excellent novel.
2) Send out queries to agents.
3) Send out partials to agents who request them.
4) Send out whole manuscript.
5) Sign contract with agent.
6) Agent sells novel...

What happens then? DO you get an advance? I know it varies but what would be an average advance for a sci-fi or fantasy novel?

Is the above correct...anything to add?

Posted by JamieFord (Member # 3112) on :

Here's a time-line of when I sold my first book last year.

Also, advances vary. I've heard the average advance is somewhere between $3-5K. But, there are SF&F authors getting eye-popping deals. I get a Publishers Marketplace emailing each day and these were recent deals posted:

Sci-Fi/Fantasy
Elizabeth Moon's KING KIERI, set directly in the aftermath of the author's "Deed of Paksenarrion" series, describing the struggles of a new king to reunite a land torn asunder by war and riven by resurgent conflict between elves and man, to Liz Scheier at Del Rey, in a significant deal ($250,000-$500,000), in a three-book deal (for a likely trilogy), for publication in October 2009, by Joshua Bilmes at JABberwocky Literary Agency (NA).

Debut author Harry Connolly's urban paranormal HARVEST OF FIRE and two sequels, about the embattled driver for a wealthy sorceress whose allegiance to a secret society puts them in constant danger, to Betsy Mitchell at Del Rey, in a pre-empt, by Caitlin Blasdell at Liza Dawson Associates (world English).

NIGHTLIFE author Rob Thurman's TRICK OF THE LIGHT, the first two books in a new series about a woman who is on the hunt for two things: the demon who killed her brother and the Light of Life, to Anne Sowards at Roc, by Jennifer Jackson of the Donald Maass Literary Agency. jjackson@maassagency.com

Ninni Holmqvist's UNIT, set within a dystopian society in which the "dispensable" ones are convinced under gentle coercion of the importance of giving organs to the "necessary" ones and submitting themselves to medical and psychological testing, to Corinna Barsan at Other Press, in a nice deal ($0-25,000), by Magdelena Hedlund at Norstedts Agency (World English).

WHITECHAPEL GODS author Shawn Peters's FAT GHOST OCEAN, in which a 22-year-old is a "binder," charged by The Man in the Empty Chair with imprisoning the mythical beasts from the ancient days of the Old Powers; the trouble is she wants to set them free, to Jessica Wade at Roc, in a nice deal ($0-25,000), by Donald Maass at the Donald Maass Literary Agency (World English).

Theodore Judson's HELL CAN WAIT, in which a Roman general stuck in Limbo because clerks lost his paperwork is given a second chance to find happiness in an American town, to Brian Hades at Edge/Tesseract, by Richard Curtis of Richard Curtis Associates (US).

Posted by arriki (Member # 3079) on :

Sigh. None of these is the sort of SF novels "I" want to read. No space adventures with alien races and especially novels with an upbeat view of the future.

Posted by mommiller (Member # 3285) on :

Novels sold today can take up to two years to be found on the shelves.

To find the books you want to read today, you're going to have to look back in time...

Posted by Robert Nowall (Member # 2764) on :

The writing of it can add an indeterminate length of time onto that in addition. (My last finished novel took five years to write (but it remains unpublished.))

[edited 'cause that first sentence looked awkward...]

[This message has been edited by Robert Nowall (edited March 04, 2008).]

Posted by JeanneT (Member # 5709) on :

February 27, 2008 Fiction:
Sci-Fi/Fantasy Elizabeth Moon's KING KIERI, set directly in the aftermath of the author's "Deed of Paksenarrion" series, describing the struggles of a new king to reunite a land torn asunder by war and riven by resurgent conflict between elves and man, to Liz Scheier at Del Rey, in a significant deal ($251,000 - $499,000), in a three-book deal (for a likely trilogy), for publication in October 2009, by Joshua Bilmes at JABberwocky Literary Agency (NA).

OMG!!!! *faints from excitment! (Deed of Paksenarrion is high among my all time favorite fantasies. Wow. I didn't think she'd do more of that world.)

From recent deals (also PM which along with Locus is my bible)

For the SF fan out ther--arriki maybe one of these would suit you better.

February 13, 2008 Fiction:
Sci-Fi/Fantasy Mike Shepherd's Kris Longknife #7, the next book in the military science fiction series, plus books eight and nine, to Ginjer Buchanan at Penguin, by Jennifer Jackson of the Donald Maass Literary Agency (NA). jjackson@maassagency.com

February 4, 2008 Fiction:
Sci-Fi/Fantasy Steven Kent's three new sequels to Rogue Clone, extending to seven the military science fiction novels in the series featuring galactic marine Wayson Harris, a clone warrior who breaks away from the pack, by Anne Sowards of Berkley, by Richard Curtis.

I would advise anyone who has a serious interest in publishing to get a PM subscription. It is more than worth the cost.

Well, without an agent to a very small publishing house I sold my first novel and signed the contract (after a couple of months of negotiation and discussion) on January 3 of this year. It is scheduled for release on May, 2009.

As with most of very small publishers I didn't get an advance but get fairly generous royalties. However, I won't sell another novel myself. I will definitely only sell through an agent in the future.

Edit: Another note--the three agents mentioned in those have among the top sales in the genre.

And on a related note:

This is a great blog entry: http://www.scalzi.com/whatever/002860.html

[This message has been edited by JeanneT (edited March 04, 2008).]

Posted by Doctor (Member # 7736) on :

JeanneT,

How did you end up publishing without an agent/through a small publisher, that's probably an interesting story right there. Do tell.

Posted by JeanneT (Member # 5709) on :

Oh, well the story with my first (first completed anyway) novel...

I didn't know a thing about writing a novel really except the misinformation I'd gleaned from college writing classes and reading novels. But I had this story so I wrote it.

It ended up being 65,000 words which is an unsellable length to the big market publishing houses for fantasy as I realized after doing some reading. My choice was to pad it to a longer length and shop it to agents or sell it to some of the smaller publishers who actually LIKE shorter novels (cheaper to print).

Well, I think it's the right length for the story and I do like the story. My readers liked it and it turned out that some publishers liked it.

Anyway Swimming Kangaroo Books picked it up (cheap--no advance). But they have a pretty good reputation and a decent contract. We start editing it in a couple of months and it's due out in May 2009.

Selling to small publishers with no agent is no problem. Plenty of them really don't care one way or the other and agents rarely submit to them since they can't afford the bucks in advances that you get from DAW, Tor, et al. However, even the small houses get a lot of submissions, so don't get the impression they're not picky. But few of them get the massive amounts that say Tor gets either.

Anyway, that's the story of my selling a novel without an agent.

Posted by JFLewis (Member # 6957) on :

I haven't update the timeline to include walking into a Barnes & Nobles and seeing your book sitting on the New Paperbacks tables yet, but I talk about the process I went through on my blog in several parts:

http://writethefantastic.blogspot.com/2007/04/my-publishing-journey-possibly-helpful.html

http://writethefantastic.blogspot.com/2007/04/how-i-got-agent.html

http://writethefantastic.blogspot.com/2007/04/wow-this-all-takes-long-time.html

http://writethefantastic.blogspot.com/2007/08/your-mileage-may-vary-ymmv.html

http://writethefantastic.blogspot.com/2007/08/ymmv-part-two-how-long-is-forever.html

http://writethefantastic.blogspot.com/2007/11/wow-this-all-takes-long-time-part-two.html

http://writethefantastic.blogspot.com/2008/02/wow-this-all-takes-long-time-part-iii.html

You also might want to check out Mur Lafferty's I Should Be Writing podcast at http://isbw.murlafferty.com .

-- Jeremy

Posted by Christian (Member # 7825) on :

There's a book called "Writing Science Fiction and Fantasy" by Crawford Killian, that walks through the entire timeline, from submission to first hitting the shelf, and what happens after your book hits the shelf. It's a long process, kind of depressing really (because it takes YEARS), but very informative.

Posted by JeanneT (Member # 5709) on :

How many of us knew that it took years to get a book on the shelf when we first started? I know I didn't. That's NOT what they say in the movies. LOL