Hatrack River Writers Workshop: Slipstream...what the hell is that?

This is topic Slipstream...what the hell is that? in forum Open Discussions About Writing at Hatrack River Writers Workshop.

To visit this topic, use this URL:
http://www.hatrack.com/ubb/writers/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=004551

Posted by skadder (Member # 6757) on :

Right, I know what science-fiction is, and I know what fantasy and horror are, but there seem to be loads of other genres that I can't find solid definitions for.

Slipstream
Urban-fantasy
Magical realism

...to name but a few.

I have a story where a magical being interacts with standard modern humans. The magic is portrayed as real as I can make it.

How do you pick what genre your piece falls into. What is HArry Potter for example? I would simply call it fantasy as it is a story where there are fantastical elements in an otherwise normal world.

If anyone knows where these or any other genres are listed and DEFINED I would be grateful as it helps when submitting.

Adam

Posted by gobi13x (Member # 6837) on :

While it is not the best source of information, Wikipedia has dozens of genre classifications that you can look up. All three that you list is described on Wikipedia.

Posted by darklight (Member # 5213) on :

In the bigger picture, how important are these terms, that in reality are sub-genres of the bigger genres of Science fiction and fantasy?

I can't speak for the US market, I live in the UK and submit in the UK, but I have never come across a publisher or agents that says any more than 'We handle Science Fiction and Fantasy'.

I have to admit, after reading skadder's original qustion, I did take a tour of these terms on wikipedia, and find their definitions interesting, if not sometimes a bit confusing, but first and foremost, I would catagorise my work as Science Fiction, Fantasy or whatever, but I guess there's no harm if when submitting, adding the sub-genre, but I wouldn't get to bothered about it.

My oppinion anyhow.

Posted by Rahl22 (Member # 1411) on :

These distinctions become more necessary when one submits to magazines and anthologies as many are themed or otherwise selective. You'd be dead in the water, for example, if you submitted a hard science fiction story to the Polyphony series of anthologies without any slipstream sensibilities. As for a definition, I can't really offer one but there have been many definition debates out there. If I come across any of those, I'll link you.

Posted by TaleSpinner (Member # 5638) on :

From a perusal of Wikipedia (which, as all too often, is maddening in its inability to explain things other than to those who already know) here are my one-liner definitions which I offer in the hope that either they're okay, or someone can give better ones.

Slipstream - fiction (literary?) with a surreal, disturbing nature, sometimes with science fiction or fantasy elements

Urban Fantasy - where the fantasy (magic) happens in an otherwise normal, usually contemporary setting (e.g. HP)

Magical Realism - where the fantasy (magic) happens in a setting where magic is regarded as normal, unremarkable--magic is truly real, in other words

I think, skadder, according to these definitions your story is urban fantasy--not magical realism, because there are ordinary folks in it as well.

(Polyphony defines itself as cross-genre, and does not mention slipstream. http://www.wheatlandpress.com/polyphony/index.html )

But, as darklight observes, it doesn't really matter because bookshops put it all in the coarse genres we all know and love; nobody can even define "literary merit". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literary_merit

Hope this helps,
Pat

[This message has been edited by TaleSpinner (edited January 11, 2008).]

Posted by InarticulateBabbler (Member # 4849) on :

As I understand them:

Slipstream would be mixing sci-fi and fantasy elements. (Eion Colfer) Trolls with machine guns; nuclear physicists with the force...a kind of NO RULES tour de force.

Urban Fantasy any magic or mythical creature/monster in a present setting. (Harry Potter is the quintessential example.)

Magical Realism believable, or scientifically explained "magic". Elements that make the fantastic element seem mundane. (ESP, genetic phenomenon...)

I cite no sources (because in some instances I have a memory like a sieve), but my definitions are compiled from a number of ezine submission pages. <shrug>

[This message has been edited by InarticulateBabbler (edited January 11, 2008).]

Posted by lehollis (Member # 2883) on :

I'm not sure I agree with Harry Potter being Urban Fantasy. I'd say OSC's Magic Street or The Dresden Files are better examples. The Wikipedia article has many other good examples, but Harry Potter is not listed there, and I think that is as it shoudl be.

Potter has an entire fantasy setting within an otherwise normal world. From what I've seen, Urban Fantasy tends to have a focus on the modern world and the urban-ness of the world that Harry Potter lacked. I think Potter is best classified as it always has been, YA Fantasy.

Posted by JeanneT (Member # 5709) on :

When you are submitting to serial publications, the subgenre can be extremely important. For instance, there are a huge number that won't touch what they consider "high" fantasy. They may not say that in their guidelines which in fact may say the opposite, but it doesn't take reading many editions to see that they don't touch anything but urban. There are a few that will publish almost nothing but steam punk. I don't know any way to be sure except to read the publications which is easier said than done considering the cost and time involved. I'd love it if Duotrope or Ralan would start covering which subgenres these publications actually publish, but that would be pretty complicated.

Edit: I agree that too much of Harry Potter is set in a mythic setting to be properly classed as urban. I think it is actually closer to the type of high fantasy in which a "real-world" character is placed in an invented world, the magical train serving as the portal between them.

[This message has been edited by JeanneT (edited January 11, 2008).]

Posted by Spaceman (Member # 9240) on :

quote:
I'd love it if Duotrope or Ralan would start covering which subgenres these publications actually publish

That's what the guidelines are for.

Posted by Robert Nowall (Member # 2764) on :

When one has a word, one needs a definition, and something to define. Who came up with the term "slipstream" and what were they hoping to accomplish by creating this word?

*****

I would say that Harry Potter, or at least the first book thereof (still the only one I've read, despite having copies of all seven now), would be Fantasy, out of the School of Unknown, the late 1930s / early 1940s fantasy magazine, i. e. Fantasy highly influenced by Science Fiction of the era. Defined by taking traditional or non-traditional fantastic elements and mixing them into a real (if fictionalized) setting, like Harry Potter's Hogwarts, which is, when you strip away the fantastic element, a British "public school." Works of similar tone would be Heinlein's Magic, Inc. and Anderson's Operation Chaos.

Posted by TaleSpinner (Member # 5638) on :

Here's an article by one Bruce Sterling, who is credited at Wikipedia with coining the term "slipstream".
http://w2.eff.org/Misc/Publications/Bruce_Sterling/Catscan_columns/catscan.05

It's linked to by the Wikipedia piece which is here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slipstream_(literature)

It doesn't seem to be defined as SF and fantasy. SF and fantasy can be slipstream, but if I understand it correctly, not all slipstream has both elements--or even either of them.

The author of the Wikipedia article says that slipstream might be more a literary effect than a genre. It makes you "feel strange." Which means that both the news and the incoherent ramblings of a psychopath are slipstream, I guess.

Whatever it may be, it's too literary for my taste.
Pat

[This message has been edited by TaleSpinner (edited January 12, 2008).]

Posted by JeanneT (Member # 5709) on :

quote:
That's what the guidelines are for.

It might be what the guidelines SHOULD be for, Spaceman. But rarely do the guidelines say what subgenre they actually publish. So no--it's not what the guidelines are for.

Duotrope and Ralan give information that the guidelines contain such as whether they accept multiple and simultaneous submissions. Whether it is in the guidelines or not is irrelevent, as a matter of fact. But few publications are straightforward enough to actually tell authors what subgenre they are looking for. I know several that say they consider all forms of speculative fiction that never actually publish certain subgenre.

There are exceptions--publications that say they prefer a certain subgenre and then actually publish that. They are refreshing in their honesty.

[This message has been edited by JeanneT (edited January 12, 2008).]

Posted by InarticulateBabbler (Member # 4849) on :

JeanneT ,if you graze your mouse across the little colored boxes on the listings of Duotrope, they will tell you what that magazine accepts. (That's why those little boxes are there.

)

Posted by JeanneT (Member # 5709) on :

What boxes show anything beyond the genre, IB? I was not talking about the genre (which Duotrope gives) but the subgenre. Don't get me wrong--I love Duotrope and use it all the time. But I wish it had somewhat expanded information on that.

I am not aware of anywhere on Duotrope that addresses SUBGENRE.

That they say they accept fantasy and science fiction doesn't mean that they actually accept anything except Slipstream. Or Hard Science Fiction. Or Urban Fantasy. Or whatever. Very few actually accept ALL subgenre.

So my sending them high fantasy, sword and sorcery, or soft science fiction would be a waste of their time and mine. Now theoretically I should read enough of all of the publications to know what they ACTUALLY publish but the number of publications and the cost and time required to do that makes it not a very practical solution.

Edit: Which may be a thread hijack from what is slipstream but is the main reason I consider subgenre to be important.

[This message has been edited by JeanneT (edited January 12, 2008).]

Posted by InarticulateBabbler (Member # 4849) on :

Some boxes are subgenres. But, as well as the boxes, and info that a publication puts there, Duotrope gives you the link (to anyone who has a site), and in their submissions section--what I think Spaceman was refering to--is usually what they will and won't take. Many give example for what they're tired of seeing, or what the editors hate alongside the formatting they require.

Duotrope is just the middleman (so to speak), they have a lot of information, but they can only offer you what the magazine/publishers offer them. If you can't get your answers via the site, write the editors and ask them--never hurts to show a little initiative and make some contacts.

[This message has been edited by InarticulateBabbler (edited January 12, 2008).]

Posted by annepin (Member # 5952) on :

quote:
If you can't get your answers via the site, write the editors and ask them--never hurts to show a little initiative and make some contacts.

Hm... my feeling is if you contacted them and asked them what sub genre their magazine was you run the risk of marking yourself an amateur.

Most editors indicate they want you to be familiar with their work _before_ you submit. Ideally, they want you to have read the magazine for a period of time and like what they do. They probably realize, realistically, that you haven't read their stuff routinely (though I'm sure R of F and SF and F do), but if you're planning to submit and want a decent shot at being published, you'll do best if you do your homework and actually read the stuff, at least one issue, and decide whether your story is a good fit or not.

As for sub genre categories--I think it's important to know what they are and where your story will fit, either for books or for short fiction. While most editors simply state they take fantasy or sci fi, often if you look at their actually books, they might prefer one sub genre or another. Besides, it shows you know your market if you say, "magical realism in the vein of Haruki Murakami" or whatever.

[This message has been edited by annepin (edited January 12, 2008).]

Posted by DebbieKW (Member # 5058) on :

JeanneT,

Perhaps we should start a running post in "Markets for Our Writing" where people who have read the various publications can list the nuances of what is accepted. Like, "they only like urban fantasy" or "they prefer happy endings" or "they prefer slipstream" (with a definition of slipstream given).

Posted by JeanneT (Member # 5709) on :

That's a good idea, Debbie. Maybe we could start something like that.

It's all very well for editors to say you're supposed to read a couple of their editions before submitting, but the expectation is totally unreasonable when you get down to it. There are some over 180 PAYING markets for fantasy listed on Duotrope at the moment. If I could afford a copy of all of them I still wouldn't have the time. Give me a break. Of course I submit to publications I haven't read.

No, annepin, I do not have time to read even ONE edition of 180 publications!! And I'm not going to pretend that I do.

And IB, again, I am acquainted with the boxes on Duotrope. ALL they say is Fantasy, Horror, Science Fiction, etc. They do not address the issue of subgenres.

Most do not give on their guidelines what subgenre they accept and there are a number that say that they are open to any subgenre but if you read the publication only actually publish one or two subgenre--the most frequent being urban. So saying that you can just read the guidelines isn't accurate. A good example--try finding any fantasy except Urban in Strange Horizons. That isn't what they say, but it's what they publish--yes, it's good urban fantasy but you're wasting your time sending them high fantasy or sword and sorcery or low fantasy.

It wouldn't be a bad idea to share market preferences. I am particularly interested in finding markets for short high fantasy and sword and sorcery. Finding markets that will even consider those subgenres is really difficult. They don't publish them so I'm not interested in submitting to them and wasting my time. I do sometimes out of what I can only call desperation.

[This message has been edited by JeanneT (edited January 12, 2008).]

Posted by InarticulateBabbler (Member # 4849) on :

JeanneT, maybe my eyes are mistaken:

Literary
Mainstream
Science Fiction
Fantasy
Erotica
Romance
Horror
Magic Realism
Mystery
Action/Adv
Suspense
Experimental
Cross Genre (slipstream fits this)
Historical
Western
Open to Most

Like I said: SOME subgenres are categorized by those boxes.

[This message has been edited by InarticulateBabbler (edited January 12, 2008).]

Posted by JeanneT (Member # 5709) on :

I don't find those helpful or subgenre (other than slipstream). Maybe you do, IB. So if you want to consider those subgenre, that's fine. It's not worth arguing from my point of view.

The fantasy subgenre that I would look for are:

Alternate history
Comic fantasy
Urban fantasy
Dark fantasy
Fairytale fantasy
High fantasy
Historical fantasy
Steampunk
Juvenile/YA fantasy
Low fantasy
Slipstream
Sword and Planet
Sword and sorcery

I did start a thread in the Markets forum where we might put information about short story markets. I think sharing any information we come across on markets would be good. They are complicated and I suspect I waste a lot of submission that go to the totally wrong markets--in fact I know it. But there are such a limited number of markets for what I write and I'm not willing to switch subgenre for short markets. *sighs*

Frankly, about 75% of my submissions are from pure desperation wanting to place stories that don't fit in any publication I know of. It's not a good way of doing it.

[This message has been edited by JeanneT (edited January 12, 2008).]