Hatrack River Writers Workshop: "Genre Twist"

This is topic "Genre Twist" in forum Open Discussions About Writing at Hatrack River Writers Workshop.

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Posted by SchamMan89 (Member # 5562) on :

How do you feel about the idea of the story you're reading changing its identity on you? For example, if you're reading a murder mystery but it turns out to actually be a romance. Or perhaps what seems to true history becomes historical fiction.

The series I'm writing appears to be fantasy until late in the third installment, where the reader realizes it is science fiction.

Does this turn you off? Do you think it would deter many readers? Even if the story keeps the same spirit?

Just curious...thanks!

~Chris

Posted by KPKilburn (Member # 6876) on :

I haven't read anything that changes gears like that, but I did see one movie called The Forgotten http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Forgotten_%28film%29

It started off good.

quote:
From Wikipedia: Telly Paretta (played by Julianne Moore), is still grieving for her 9 year old son, Sam, who died in a plane crash 14 months ago. While trying to come to terms with her grief, she becomes estranged from her husband Jim (Anthony Edwards). She is then informed by her psychiatrist (Gary Sinise) that her son never existed and was simply a figment of her imagination (she was even told by Jim that she suffered a miscarriage). She tries to find evidence that her son had existed, but it has all vanished.

The problem was that halfway through the movie it went from psychological thriller to SF. It turns out that aliens had abducted her son. I almost turned the movie off. I like SF, but not as a final revelation for everything that's been happening and has been explained by something else.

I would probably hate it even more if I spent the time reading a book. It might not be so bad if there were clues that led up to it (maybe I missed them in The Forgotten), but even then I don't like the technique.

Posted by WouldBe (Member # 5682) on :

I've asked similar questions about genre benders, none with such a dramatic, late conversion. I think the first hurdle would be an agent or editor; they know bookstores will have a hard time placing such a book on the shelf. They'd have to pick one genre or another, and so will you, I think. That is the gist of the advice I got from an agent who answered questions on her blog and from Evil Editor.

SF/fantasy readers may forgive (or love) historical fiction mixed with SF/F as long as they knew it would *eventually* have a SF/F payoff. (OSC certainly had a good run with alternative history with Alvin Maker.) I'm not sure a reader of straight historical fiction would care for a space alien suddenly showing up in Arlington during the Civil War.

In my case, it was a hard-to-classify story...sort of SF, sort of medical thriller, but only about 10 minutes in the future. The advice was to plant a flag in SF-land or Med-Thriller-land and stand by it. In your case, you might need to consider some rewrites according to where you plant the flag.

However, if you have a truly great story, you have more latitude, I think.

(If the alien does not show up until the third of the series, do you REALLY need it?)

Posted by TaleSpinner (Member # 5638) on :

I hate it when a book switches from a genre I love to one that I abhor and will never trust that author again. For this reason I often scan SF books before purchasing, because just a few are horror stories in disguise and I do not like horror stories.

I guess if you're going to do this the genre you switch to has to be one the audience for the first genre will accept, and the switch has to be credible and consistent with what has gone before.

That may not be easy. Will lovers of fantasy accept the fantastic machines of your SF? Will SF lovers get past your dragons and mages?

Have you considered foreshadowing some of the sci fi elements earlier? (Of course that would make it cross-genre, but at least the contract with the reader then would be clear from the outset.)

Just 2c,
Pat

Posted by annepin (Member # 5952) on :

I think you risk putting off people who only like one genre or the other. However, if the story line is powerful enough, and coherent enough, I think this could work.

Keep in mind, though, that the opening section of a book sets up a "contract" with the reader by setting up certain expectations about what the story is and how it will be told. Genre is part of that contract. Again, I think it can be done, just with great care!

Posted by halogen (Member # 6494) on :

Books do this all the time.

I don't like the idea of being nailed down to a genere to begin with so I wouldn't see a problem with going from fantasy to science-fiction if it fits with the story.

I think you can pull it off as long as it doesn't break the rules that apply to any situation in a story:

If the transition feels forced (Thorindar the dragon-slayer is suddenly sucked into an alien ship and forced to become Thorindar the cyborg-zombie-hunter).

If the transition feels like it is there just for a wow factor (Thorindar was just a character in a video game played by 13 year old Jimmy).

And if the transition feels like the reader should have known it all along or if it creates loopholes (why did Thorindar walk from M'ali Ocean to the mountains of K'th'Akimama when he could have just taken the space bus?).

Though "true history becomes historical fiction" would pretty much force me to letter bomb the writer.

Posted by Christine (Member # 1646) on :

This type of story is a risk, but I loathe the idea that all stories have to reveal their true nature within the first few pages (paragraphs for short story). The best example I can think of for how something like this would work well is the modern-day setting with supernatural discoveries or revelations. Sometimes it's fun to let the main character be some regular guy like you or me who discovers that X really does exist.

The trick is clues, I think. You want the reader to say, "Ah ha!" rather than, "Bull Sh--!"

Let's say your hero is a cop investigating a string of similar murders. Is there something fishy about those murders from the start? Maybe they all died from fear or shock. Or does it look like they were alls tabbed to death with a knife? If the former, that crazy poltergeist who turns out to have done it might be more reasonable. If the latter, there had better be some other darn good clues.

I don't think it's a good idea to twist genre for the sake of a "Gotcha!" it's not the kind of twist that appeals to me for its own sake. If I'm kept in the dark about what's really going on, it had better be for a good reason -- and the main characters (especially if they are POV characters) had better not know the truth but keep it from me.

Posted by TaleSpinner (Member # 5638) on :

I remember "The Forgotten". For me it barely worked, and only because I like sci fi and liked the alien special effects. There were no clues this would happen, no foreshadowing, so as a plot it was not satisfying. I can imagine people who like psychological thrillers being annoyed by it.

I can think of a few cross-genre books ("Time Traveller's Wife", romance and SF) and movies ("Star Wars", space opera and some magic with "The Force") but can anyone identify some successful books that change genre midstream?

Just 2c,
Pat

Posted by JamieFord (Member # 3112) on :

Don't do it.

Promise your reader what kind of story it is and deliver on that promise.

Posted by SchamMan89 (Member # 5562) on :

Well, this is how the twist works for me.

Throughout the story characters are in this world with swords and bizarre monsters and stuff. There is a "pope" of sorts who controls the church of this world, and pretty much controls every city and everything. It turns out that he in fact created this world from scratch to experiment on people with his biological weapons and creatures so he could eventually assault the galactic federation.

The characters never leave the planet. The characters only meet a couple of people that are from space.

I plan on offering a fair amount of foreshadowing.

~Chris

[This message has been edited by SchamMan89 (edited January 06, 2008).]

Posted by KPKilburn (Member # 6876) on :

quote:
I remember "The Forgotten". For me it barely worked, and only because I like sci fi and liked the alien special effects. There were no clues this would happen, no foreshadowing, so as a plot it was not satisfying. I can imagine people who like psychological thrillers being annoyed by it.

I like both, but I think what annoyed me the most is that the SF element really didn't fit. It was revealed too late to be effective. There was a Stephen King movie (I didn't read the book/story) called "Dreamcatcher" that started off like a horror movie (which I like), but ended as SF (which I like) - the switch simply annoyed me and the story really wasn't that good (at least in the movie).

Posted by TaleSpinner (Member # 5638) on :

"It turns out that he in fact created this world from scratch to experiment on people."

Ah! "Counterfeit World" (or "Simulacron-3")by Daniel F. Galouye--upon which the "Thirteenth Floor" movie was based--had a similar-but-way-different plot and it worked because the ending was foreshadowed; it's good to hear you will employ foreshadowing, for it's a critical element in making this kind of twist work, methinks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulacron-3

Foreshadowing was entirely missed in "The Forgotten", as KPKilburn suggests.

Good luck with this, sounds interesting,
Pat

Posted by JeanneT (Member # 5709) on :

quote:
Keep in mind, though, that the opening section of a book sets up a "contract" with the reader...

Exactly. And as a reader, if you break a contract with me once you won't get to do it again.

I changed the beginning of my first novel because I realized that I gave the reader a contract that I broke. I have no problem with cross-genre, but if it's not in the contract then you lose me.

Posted by Christine (Member # 1646) on :

quote:
Don't do it.
Promise your reader what kind of story it is and deliver on that promise.

This assumes that we're contracting for a genre. Typically, we contract for a tale of mystery, adventure, romance, character, etc. The whole MICE thing spells it out pretty well.

Posted by JamieFord (Member # 3112) on :

It doesn't have to be genre specific. It's just generally bad news to take the reader down a certain path and then change the type of story it is. Twists and turns are great. Unkempt storylines aren't.

Posted by lehollis (Member # 2883) on :

I agree about the contract/agreement/promise principle. So, if you are going to do this, if you insist, set it up early. Throw in enough hints or clues or whatever (even something more obvious like a PoV shift to the Mothership hovering over fantasy-land). That way, the reader knows from the start what kind of story you're telling.

Then, you just have to find the niche of readers who like that kind of thing. I don't think many will, but some will love it. Heck, I might even be in the mood for something like that someday.

Posted by JeanneT (Member # 5709) on :

I don't know about you, Christine, but I do consider the genre to be part of the contract. If I start a fantasy and half way through someone turns it into a sci/fi I'm going to be ticked.

Posted by Christine (Member # 1646) on :

No, I do not see why genre is a part of the contract. I consider it to be a part of the buildup. It's like I was trying to describe before -- a mystery novel that starts out set in the "real world" could become supernatural if the right clues are in place.

Of course, the placement in the book store is going to give it away a little bit. But you have to understand that the implicit promise is established within 3 pages of a novel and it would be a shame if every single book had to start with some giveaway about ghosts, if they're going to be in there. It really limits the types of stories you can tell.

Now, if I've taken a book from the fantasy section and it turns out that there is a mundane explanation for whatever weirdness is going on, I would be disappointed. That book should be in the mainstream section. The section, the marketing, and the book blurb create a sort of promise as well.

Posted by JeanneT (Member # 5709) on :

Well, for people who do it, they should know that many people do consider that part of the contract. I certainly do. Many people have strong likes and dislikes in genre. I particularly dislike romances, for instance, but occasionally read mysteries. So the original example of a supposed mystery (one assumes it would be in the mystery section) which turned out to be nothing but a romance would be VERY annoying to me and I would consider the contract broken. And, of course, as someone pointed out not knowing where to class it for bookstore placement could make a sale quite difficult.

[This message has been edited by JeanneT (edited January 07, 2008).]

Posted by SchamMan89 (Member # 5562) on :

Well, for what I'm trying to do, it would probably still lean more toward fantasy than science fiction. I would simply be describing some of the origins of some fantasy places and creatures. For example, while I would explain that the giant tunnel underground that has powerful winds is actually a generator for a scientist's laboratory, I wouldn't even try to explain something like why one side of a mountain range is volcanic and the other side is frozen solid.

I think I can see how tight of a rope I'll be walking from all of the comments above. I appreciate your insight.

~Chris

Posted by Robert Nowall (Member # 2764) on :

SF and fantasy are brothers under the skin, so it's hardly surprising that one lifts something from the other. Used to be the stuff got published as SF, where spaceports and spaceships would play a role at the beginning and disappear. Now that fantasy is more viable, it hardly seems surprising that it goes the other way, where writers start out fantastic but stick a few SF notions in along the way.

*****

In a way, it's all old hat. Just yesterday I read an interesting essay on the state of SF in the movies in Entertainment Weekly, by the guy who handles the last page when Stephen King doesn't have a column. It covers how movie SF sticks with a few ways of handling SF (spaceships and such), tweaking them with better special effects and CGI, but still the same nonetheless. He advocated having somebody who's not overly fond of the genre do an SF movie, as Kubrick did with "2001," the better to get original ideas.

Movies are a poor relation to the written word in SF and fantasy, but it could be said to apply here. A lot of it, SF or fantasy, is more of the same, but not necessarily better.

*****

"The Thirteenth Floor" was based on "Simulacron-3"? Hmm...I hadn't heard...I liked what Galouye I've read...might be interesting to see how they changed it...

Posted by skadder (Member # 6757) on :

'Dusk til Dawn' was a genre twist for me. I didn't read the blurb on the back of the video and thought it was a thriller, cops and robbers type thing, and then it became a full-blown vampire flick.

I loved it at the time.

Posted by KPKilburn (Member # 6876) on :

Dusk til Dawn - that brings up an interesting point. Without knowing what it was about, is it a genre twist or is it a vampire movie that starts off with a robbery? Somehow Dusk to Dawn worked for me, yet The Forgotten didn't.

I'm biased because I liked the movie and at the time didn't notice the genre twist because I knew what it was about. I can't say if I would have been disappointed had I not known. I don't think I would have been just because it's Quentin Tarantino, so I'd expect something like that from him.

[This message has been edited by KPKilburn (edited January 08, 2008).]

Posted by oliverhouse (Member # 3432) on :

I remember one of those "best of" anthologies from some time ago with a Marion Zimmer Bradley story. It started off sounding like fantasy, but ended up being science fiction. It had a technologically primitive first-person narrator and featured (some pages through the story) omens in the sky that had to be described from her POV, which of course couldn't include high-technology concepts. The editor wrote an opening blurb for the story that said, basically, "it starts like fantasy but is really science fiction", and I think that helped quite a bit precisely because I didn't feel like the contract had been violated. If I were submitting something of the sort, I would include a note in a cover letter noting the same shift, and perhaps even (very very very briefly) why.

I wouldn't say I hate all genre shifts, but they have to be _good_ ones. I hated one story (maybe mfreivald remembers what it was called, since he lent it to me) in which there was an emphasis on science all the way through -- a little particle physics, a little cryptography, discussion of the historical shifts of the earth's magnetic field, discussion of ancient myths really representing mundane facts, deconstruction of religions -- and then all of a sudden one of the characters had ESP: full-blown see-through-walls-and-cover-space-and-time ESP. Dropping this fantastic element into what was otherwise a science fiction story completely stomped on my head.

Don't get me wrong -- I respect the guy for finishing his book and getting someone to publish it, but that twist still irritates me.

Regards,
Oliver

Posted by sholar (Member # 3280) on :

Marion Zimmer Bradley's Darkover series seems to me to be sci/fi or fantasy depending on her mood. There does seem to be reason behind why the planet is technologically where it is at, which helps (I only read a few books from this series but not because of the unlear genre). Magic of Recluse has some sci fi elements in the origin story. Sci/fi and fantasy seem natural to have crossover. What's the quote- in an advanced enough society, science seems like magic?

Posted by JeanneT (Member # 5709) on :

Both of those have strong sci/fi elements since the basis of the world is they were marooned and adapted to their environments. Bradley's had more sci/fi than Modesitt's though, it seems to me.

Posted by KPKilburn (Member # 6876) on :

quote:
What's the quote- in an advanced enough society, science seems like magic?

Arthur C. Clarke formulated the following three "laws" of prediction:

When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong.

The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible.

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

(From Wikipedia)

Posted by supraturtle (Member # 1518) on :

CJ Cherryh's Foriegner series sort of does that. I guess a series can break the mold over a long time--that series has had quite a run too.
It starts out as hardcore sci-fi but that really becomes a forgotten backdrop in what is more akin to fantasy. The sci fi picks up again. The entire story could take place in feudal Japan.
I think a good set of characters is like a real person--IS a real person. A real person can live many types of adventures.
I say it just has to be a natural progression. I mean, a writer isn't just the elegance of his words and a premise: he or she is trying to introduce something unique to the world.

Posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (Member # 59) on :

quote:
Marion Zimmer Bradley's Darkover series seems to me to be sci/fi or fantasy depending on her mood. There does seem to be reason behind why the planet is technologically where it is at, which helps (I only read a few books from this series but not because of the unlear genre). Magic of Recluse has some sci fi elements in the origin story. Sci/fi and fantasy seem natural to have crossover. What's the quote- in an advanced enough society, science seems like magic?

Marion Zimmer Bradley considered anything that clearly couldn't happen on this earth (there is more than one moon, for example) to be science fiction, even if everything else in the story was fantasy, and she said so rather often in her rejection letters.

It drove some of her submitters crazy.